Illinois House Floor Debate — May 12, 1981

"Representative Madigan, did you get to church this morning?"

"Yes, I woke up with religion. I was thinking of you."

"I'm not even going to bite on that one. The House will be in Order. Father Wright from St. Agnes Parish will lead us in prayer this morning."

"Let us pray. Father of all mankind, we are gathered in Springfield for this Session. We assembled here mindful of the heritage that is ours. On this occasion we have gathered in Your name. Come with us, be with us. We pray that You will enter our hearts. Teach us what we are to do. Where we ought to tend. Show us what we must accomplish. In order that with Your help we may be able to please You in all things. May You alone be the author and finisher of all our judgements. Oh, God permit us not to disturb the order of justice. Let not ignorance draw us into devious past. Let not partiality sway our minds but unite us to Yourself by the gift of Your divine grace. So that we may be one in You and never forsake You. As we are gathered here this morning so may we and all things hold fast to justice and holiness and truth. So that in this life our judgement may in no way be at variance with You. And in the life to come, we may attain everlasting rewards for deeds well done. May the blessing of the God, Almighty Father, Son and Holy Spirit come upon us and assist us in our work. This we ask through Christ our Lord."

"Thank you, Father. Representative Getty will lead the pledge this morning."

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice 1  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 for all."

"Roll Call for attendance. Let the record show that Representative Jones has arrived. It's the intention of the chair to work the entire day maybe with a two hour break sometime this afternoon, late this afternoon or early this evening. Maybe from 3:00 to 5:00 or 4:00 to 6:00 or somewhere in that area. Maybe 3:00 to 6:00. We'll see how things move here and then be back in and work till 9:00 or 10:00 this evening. Representative Davis."

"Well, Speaker, I'm willing to work all night and all week long and everything else but obviously there are about 120 members who decided to take their two hour break this morning. Now, I don't know how we get them here and keep them here but I don't think a break this afternoon is going to do anybody any good. If we're going to start at 8:00 we ought to start and 8:00 and work 12 or 14 or 16 hours and go home and go to bed. But I've always objected to this. Nobody shows up at the appointed time and I don't know how you discipline this House but Mr. Speaker, I suggest we run some Bills and Members that aren't here and get them on a priority call to get them here on time or they don't get to have their Bill heard."

"Representative Davis, the record indicates that there are 152 Members present this morning and with that many Members answering the call a quorum of the House is present."

"There's a paper indicate there's 152 Members here."

"Take the record. Let's start with the list that was given to me last night to return the Bills that are on the Order of Third Reading to return to the Order of Second Reading. Begin on that Order. .... in numerical order as they would appear on the calendar. We'll start with House Bill 19, Representative Cullerton. Representative 2  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Cullerton."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I understand there are two Amendments..."

"The Gentleman asks leave to take House Bill 19 back to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. House Bill 19 is now on the Order of Second Reading. Are there any Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 19 has been read a second time previously. Amendment #2, Levin-Cullerton, amends House Bill 19 as amended."

"Representative Cullerton, on Amendment #2 to House Bill 19."

"Representative Levin would explain it please."

"Do you yield to Representative Levin?"

"Please."

"Representative Levin."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, Amendment #2 has been cleared with both sides of the aisle and the language has been worked out with the Department of Law Enforcement that has no objections to this Amendment. It is also supported by the Illinois Gun Collectors Association. Very briefly what the Amendment does is to have the Department of Law Enforcement regularly obtain from the Federal Government copies of applications for federal gun dealers applications. And to pass those along to the local Department, Law Enforcement Agencies for their scrutiny. I ask for a favorable Roll Call."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Vinson."

"Yes, will the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"He indicates he will. Who's going to answer the questions? Representative Levin

"Representative, would you explain the nature of the 3  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Amendment again, please?"

"Yes, Representative Vinson, this Amendment is the, comes as the result of an investigation by Channel 2 in Chicago where a producer using a phony name and phony mail drop as an address was able to obtain two federal gun dealer licenses. What was discovered was that the Federal Government simply puts the phony names or the real names through the FBI computer and if there are no, if the names don't have any record they send along a license. This is because they have for the eight midwestern states a total of seven field personnel to verify the information. Once you have a federal gun dealer's license you are able to evade both federal and state gun laws which means you don't need to have the state ID. You don't have to wait 72 hours. You can order guns through the mail and get parts for machine guns. The purpose of this Amendment is for the State of Illinois to begin to clamp down on this loophole by having the Department of Law Enforcement obtain the applications from the Federal Government which are available and give those applications to the local Law Enforcement Agencies. So that they may on their own investigate to see whether or not there's misrepresentations or other problems in terms of people who are selling guns in their area."

"Representative, does this put the state in the position in effect then of enforcing federal gun control provisions?"

"No, Representative Vinson. This is different from the Bill that was offered in Committee. It does not have any penalty provisions in it and it is purely permissive on the part of local Law Enforcement Agencies. It's a proposal which has been checked out with all sides both pro and anti-gun and I think that everybody feels that it's a 4  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 reasonable approach."

"Representative, on page two in Section 3, I read that as imposing a mandate, an absolute mandate on the Department of Law Enforcement."

"This, I raise the question with the Department whether or not they wanted to change the word shall to may and they felt that it was fine the way it was. The language further down states that effectively if they are not able to obtain the information they can't pass it on. This language was cleared with them. There were changes that were made at their requests. They are totally satisfied with this language. I went over it with them word for word and it is exceptable to them in the present form."

"Was a Bill that contained this, these provisions actually introduced directly in the Legislature?"

"I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question."

"Was there a Bill which contained the same provisions actually introduced in the Legislature?"

"There was a Bill that was introduced which was similar but went beyond this in that it contained criminal penalties at the state level for misrepresentation on the federal application. That has been eliminated. There have been a couple of other changes in language here. The provision in terms of local Law Enforcement Agencies checking out the information has been changed. That is permissive now. It is not mandatory. If they want to they can. If they don't want to they don't have to. But we're talking about initially about five to six thousand applications in terms of renewals of approximately two thousand. So it's not a very large volume of applications."

"On page two of the Act in Section 6 I would read that as absolutely mandating local agencies to cooperate with and 5  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 share information obtained pursuant to this Act, wouldn't you?"

"Again, this was, this language was discussed with the Department of Law Enforcement. I asked them if they thought it should be removed. They felt that if the information is provided certainly in the spirit of the proposal there should be cooperation between all levels of Law Enforcement Agencies. And again, I ask the Department if they wanted to remove that language. They felt that it should not be removed, that it should be left in."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, may I speak to the Bill?"

"Proceed will you Representative Vinson."

"Thank you Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I believe that a Bill which contained a number of these same provisions was introduced in the Legislature and was killed in Committee. I think the wisdom of the Committee is accurate in this particular case. I think if you look through the entire scheme of this act you're going to find in this, I believe this Amendment essentially becomes the act. You're going to find that it places State Government in the process of enforcing the federal scheme for gun control. I think more than that it does mandate in many cases the Department of Law Enforcement and Local Agencies to actually do that. I don't believe there's a discretion involved in the concept and I would suggest that if you believe that gun control is a political whipping board and not a effective means for crime control one ought to oppose this Amendment and for those reasons I'll vote 'no' on the Amendment."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Levin, uh, Representative Leverenz."

"Not to be confused with, will the Sponsor yield? He 6  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 indicates he will. Representative in the analysis, the second point of the analysis says it makes it an offense to carry or possess on any public street, or public land within the corporate limits, city village, or incorporated town of firearm. Can you explain that? Is this absolute total gun control?"

"Okay Representative this is Amendment #2. The analysis you're reading is on the basic Bill, and in addition I am informed by Representative Cullerton that analysis is incorrect but this is Amendment #2 which deals only with obtaining information from the Federal Government and passing it on to local Law Enforcement Agencies."

"I'm reading the sheet that says Amendment #2 to House Bill 19."

"That Amendment is described on the bottom of the page. The top of the page was the basic Bill. Also the description."

"Fine, that's what I am getting to now."

"The description on the bottom of the page was wrong, even as to Amendment #2. That description said it was mandatory on local Law Enforcement Agencies. I called the Staff person and he indicated he was going to put out a supplement stating that description was incorrect."

"Well it also says that DLE is required to make the information available to local Law Enforcement Agencies. How will they do that and what is the cost?"

"The cost, let's see. Okay, they will obtain from the Federal Government and they have checked out that they are in fact able to obtain this information and they will then, if they are able to obtain it, they will pass it on, they will mail it or deliver it to the local jurisdiction that in which the individual states that he is going to be doing business. The cost of this is approximately $5,000 for the 7.  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 first year and will be about $2,000 for each additional year. As I say it is purely permissive and all the language in this Amendment is been gone over with the Department. It is supported by Les Fields of the Illinois Gun Collectors Association as something which does not in any way expand existing laws. It does not take away anybody's rights to bear arms but simply makes the existing law work a little bit better by plugging a very significant loophole. I think whether or not you believe in gun control or not, all sides would like to see the existing laws work and so that persons who should not have guns under the law, do not and that is the intent of this. It's purely informational."

"Well, the question is, what is the cost informational? It says the Department, I guess, of Law Enforcement shall provide copies of such information obtained to local law enforcement agencies. That's Section 4 of your Amendment. Section 5, each local law enforcement agency is authorized to verify the information contained in the application. Each local law enforcement agency shall cooperate with and share information obtained pursuant to this Act with the Secretary or his agents. Now, the question is, how does this impact on local governments to go out and verify everyone of these as the Federal Government is not?"

"Okay, Representative, there are between, in terms of total number of applications or licenses, between five and seven thousand so it was the estimate of the department that would cost it the first year to process all those applications to send them on to local jurisdictions about five thousand dollars. Each year they're after approximately, there's a one-third turnover so their estimate is about two thousand dollars. In terms of local law enforcement agencies this is information that is 8  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 provided to them. If they choose not to do an investigation they're not required to. This is information that is, however, made available to them. It is discretionary with them. They're authorized to verify. They're not mandated to verify the information."

"Well, if then you're saying they don't have to verify and if they do then you're going to collide with the State's Mandates Act. But if they are allowed to verify or they may verify, what good is it to have the Amendment? They physically can't do it now. I would think with all the other responsibilities that local police departments have. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to have a state's firearm owner's ID card and you can go out and buy a gun without one. If you have the repeal or as a matter of fact coming up on the state's ID card in House Bill 328. Mr. Speaker, to the Bill."

"Proceed."

"Mr. Speaker, I think I can, if I may. Given the controversy about this I would ask to withdraw the Amendment at this point."

"Further Amendments. The Gentleman moves to withraw Amendment #2 to House Bill 19. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Cullerton, amends House Bill 19 as amended."

"Representative Cullerton."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This Amendment is, changes two words. It was recommended in the Judiciary II Committee. It deletes the word 'secure' on the last page which modifies container. so that it doesn't have to be, you don't have to carry the weapon in a secure container. It can just simply be in any container and it deletes the word 'loaded' with respect to, 9  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 on page two, line one which modifies weapon with respect to the law in terms of carrying a weapon in a vehicle. This was the wrong language that was added. We had struck, we had added loaded what was mistake so what we wanted to do is strike loaded. And that's what the Amendment does. It's simply technical. It gets the Bill in the shape that I want it to pass it on Third Reading. I would ask a favorable vote."

"Is there any discussion?"

"I'd be happy to answer any questions."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 19. Representative Vinson."

"Representative, would you, will he yield for a question, Mr. Speaker?"

"He indicates he will."

"You seek to amend the Bill on page two, line one?"

"That's correct."

"And you seek to delete 'loaded' and insert 'secure'?"

"No."

"By deleting 'loaded' and 'secure'."

"Right. 'Secure' is on the last page. That modifies the word 'container'. In Committee, what the Bill does is to say that when you're carrying a weapon that has to be in a container or in a box and there was objections raised in Committee by saying that there has to be a secure container. What does that mean? It's too ambiguous so we're going to say strictly just simply a container. So I'm striking the word 'secure'. With respect to page two, on line one that Section refers to the use of a weapon in a vehicle. Okay, the law right now says that if it's loaded or unloaded, if it's accessible in the vehicle then it's deemed to be in the possession of all those who are part of 10  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. the vehicle. When the Bill was drafted it changed the word 'unloaded' to 'loaded' so that it only effected loaded weapons in a car. So I was changing the law then. I didn't want to change that Section of the statute. So what I'm doing with this Amendment is striking the word 'loaded' so that it only refers to all weapons in a vehicle."

"Thank you."

"Further discussion. The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 19. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment... Representative Brummer."

"Could we have a Roll Call on this, please?"

"Certainly. The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 19. All in favor will signify by voting 'aye', all opposed by voting 'no'... Representative Cullerton."

"I'd like to explain my vote. There's obviously again some misunderstanding with respect to this Bill. This is a technical Amendment to my Bill on Second Reading so it was recommended in Committee. The Bill, you'll be happy to know, was drafted by the Illinois Rifle Association and the Antique Gun Collectors. Alright, it's not in any way a gun control Bill. The Bill was designed to protect, clear up the language with respect to the charge of unlawful use of weapons. It has exemptions for common carriers who deliver guns. It has an Amendment on there for the Department of Conservation allows trappers to carry weapons and that's what the Bill's about. Now, this is a technical Amendment. It's 8:25 in the morning. Apparently, some people are in a bad mood but this is ridiculous that I can't have this Bill in the form that I want on Third Reading. Well, if you want to vote against the Bill after I explain it on Third Reading I'll be happy to answer any questions at that time. 11.  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 But this is my technical Amendment to a Bill and I'd certainly appreciate a favorable vote."

"Representative Ebbesen, to explain his vote."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, in explaining my vote, any piece of legislation as far as this Legislator is concerned has got gun control on it goes out of this House becomes the attitude already in the Senate as they've got gun control legislation on the Senate floor. Get it over there amended and sometime along about midnight on the 29th or 30th we're going to have something that might slip by us or great controversy. At that hour of the night, at that time of the year, we're going to have enough to talk about and I think that anything, any Amendment that makes this Bill better ought to be defeated because it ought to be defeated on Third Reading. No vehicles over in the Senate for gun control."

"Anybody else care to explain their vote? Representative Boucek."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to ask one question. May I?"

"Well, you're a little late. We're in explanation of vote."

"Just for a clarification?"

"Proceed."

"Representative, the Bill as it reads now says 'a gun must be loaded and incased'. Is that correct? But your Amendment says now any gun regardless of whether it's loaded or unloaded. Is that true?"

"Representative Cullerton, did you care to respond?"

"Yes, the Amendment brings the law back to the way it is written now with respect to carrying a gun in a vehicle. This is a Bill that you voted for in Committee, 12  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Representative, and the Amendment was recommended in our Committee that time."

"But the Amendment was defeated. Is that true?"

"No, this Amendment was never, it was said in the Committee amended on the floor. That's what I'm trying to do."

"Then you Amendment is an after thought."

"No, my Amendment was suggested in Committee and I'm trying to amend it on the House floor."

"Okay, thank you."

"Have all voted who wish? On this, take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 79 voting 'aye', 52 voting 'no' and 8 voting 'present' and the Gentleman's Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Representative Cullerton, there's been a request for a fiscal note filed on your Bill so now it will have to remain on Second Reading. Representative Cullerton."

"Was the fiscal note filed prior to Amendment #2, Representative Levin's Amendment being discussed? Because I think that's the purpose for the fiscal note and since that Amendment's not on the Bill perhaps the person who requested it might want to withdraw it."

"Read the request, Mr. Clerk."

"Request fiscal impact statement on House Bill 19, Amendment #2, Representative Leverenz."

"Representative Leverenz."

"Yes, will withdraw it. Amendment #2 isn't even there. Thank you."

"The Gentleman withdraws his request. Third Reading. House Bill 109, Representative Ronan. The Gentleman moves to take House Bill 109 from the Order of Third Reading to the Order of Second Reading. Are there 13  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Are there any Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"House Bill 109 has been read a second time previously. Floor Amendment #2, Vinson, amends House Bill 109 as amended."

"Representative Vinson, on Amendment #2."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This Amendment is reluctantly offered not because the underlying Bill is mistaken or wrong but because passage would have been difficult without the Amendment and what the Amendment does is to strike all of the forgiveness clauses in the scholarship assistance for nurses. It's agreed with the Sponsor of the Bill. It's an unfortunate Amendment but I believe it's the best we can come with in this particular year and I would move for adoption of the Amendment."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 109. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 186, Representative O'Brien. Is the Gentleman in the chamber? Out of the record. House Bill 326, Representative DiPrima. Is the Gentleman in the chamber? Is Representative DiPrima in the chamber? House Bill 326, return it to the Order of Second Reading and hold it on the Order of Second Reading. House Bill 503, Representative Daniels. Out of the record. House Bill 581, Representative Mautino. The Gentleman moves to take House Bill 581 back to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Are there any Amendments, Mr. Clerk?" 14  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"House Bill 581 has been read a second time previously. Floor Amendment #1, Leverenz-Stuffle, amends House Bill 581 on page one, line one and so forth."

"Representative Leverenz, on the Amendment #1 to House Bill 581."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Amendment essentially would be House Bill 1300 from last Session which passed the House 133 to 12. It provides for a orderly, workable franchise agreement. It sets out details on what prohibitions are placed on distributors. Forcing distributors to take on ordered merchandise or any types of threats. I ask for a favorable vote."

"Is there any discussion to Amendment #1 to House Bill 581? Representative Pullen."

"Has it been printed and distributed, Mr. Speaker?"

"Has the Amendment been printed and distributed, Mr. Clerk."

"It's been on the desk for about two weeks, Mr. Speaker."

"Yes, the Amendment has been printed and distributed."

"It must be nice that some people around here get Amendments. Could I ask the Sponsor some questions, please?"

"He indicates he'll yield."

"Sir, you indicated that this Amendment puts into this Bill what was a Bill last year. Did you or anyone else introduce a Bill to do that this year?"

"Yes, it was House Bill 367 and we were unable to have a full hearing on the Bill and that is why I'm doing it by Amendment."

"So this was a Bill that was introduced and was referred to a Committee of this House and was not reported out so 15  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 you're trying to put it onto another Bill. Is that right?"

"No, it was not heard. It went to a Subcommittee and we did not have hearing on it."

"And it has to do with detailed considerations of franchising?"

"Franchise agreements. That's correct. It protects essentially the small business people in the State of Illinois."

"And it's about nine pages long. Is that right?"

"That's correct."

"Is it any kind of franchise or is it a particular type?"

"It has to do with beer distributors. It's the same as House Bill 1300 of last year that didn't come back from the Senate."

"So this is beer distributor franchising?"

"Yes."

"Limited to that?"

"It is a fair dealing Act for distributors. Deals only with beer franchises. That's correct."

"Thank you."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from Bond, Representative Watson."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Did I hear you correct in saying that this Bill was assigned to Registration and Regulation Committee this year?"

"Mr. Speaker, thank you. My button didn't turn my mike on right away. I did not indicate what Committee it went to or the actual Committee was not discussed at all."

"Did it, in fact, get assigned to Registration and Regulation Committee?"

"Yes, I think it did."

"How many times was it posted this year?"

"To the best of my knowledge it was posted once. We 16  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 came there and it was referred to a Subcommittee."

"It was posted several different times in Committee and it was assigned to a five member working Committee. If this, let's say I have a Rexall Drug Store and Rexall doesn't like the way I'm running their particular franchise. They want to come in and take that franchise away from me. Should or should they not have that right to do so?"

"Certainly, with good cause they should be able to take your Rexall franchise away but it has nothing to do with drug stores."

"I realize that but it's the good cause. Would you explain that, please? What determines good cause?"

"Any, if you can come in and show any cause that where you have violated the franchise then that would prove good cause."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe that this Bill has been assigned to a working Subcommittee and that's where it should remain. We have a five member Committee that's been assigned by our chairman. I think this Bill should be go through the Committee process, our chairman. I think this Bill should be, should go through the Committee process and not be used as an Amendment. I would appreciate a 'no' vote on this Amendment. Thank you."

Speaker Ryan: "Any further discussion? Representative Sandquist."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, as Chairman of the Committee on Registration and Regulation this Bill was posted several times and was heard in Committee. I had a similar Bill, 468, which dealt with the same problem. After some discussion it was agreed upon that both of these Bills would go to a working Subcommittee where they were assigned. And after that they were both 17  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 put in Interim Study and I do not think this is a fair way to do it. And therefore, I would urge a 'no' vote on this."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Leverenz, to close."

"Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, the Amendment deals with a fair dealing Act between manufacturers or the franchisors specifically in the area of beer. We passed the Bill out of the House last Session 133 to 12. It provides for certain protections for the franchisee and the franchisor. It provides for remedies and can go through the courts. It actually protects what you and I would consider small business people in the State of Illinois. I'd ask for an 'aye' vote. Thank you."

"The question is, shall Amendment #1 to House Bill 581 be adopted? All in favor will signify by voting 'aye', all opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Representative Mautino, to explain his vote."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen. I, of course, support this Amendment as well to the Bill I brought back from Third. I guess the best way to explain this Amendment in terms of yes and no votes is this: a green vote is for the business people of the State of Illinois that are involved in this industry. A red vote is for those businesses that are in St. Louis, in Milwaukee, in Fort Wayne, Indiana and in Texas. That's basically the provisions that are in this Amendment and if you want to vote for your Illinois businessmen I recommend very highly that you do so as this General Assembly did for the new car dealers. This is essentially the same Bill with the terms reversed in place of new car dealers who now have beer distributors. All of the associations in the State of 18  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Illinois are supportive of this Amendment and this Bill which was 367 and I recommend an 'aye' vote."

"Have all vote who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 60 voting 'yes', 80 voting 'no', 4 voting 'present' and the Gentleman's Motion fails. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #2, Mautino, amends House Bill 581 on page one.."

"Representative Mautino, on Amendment #2."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe that Amendment #2 is probably out of order since Amendment #1 was not adopted. If I remember correctly that Amendment was a sever ability clause on Constitutionality of the question. Is that not true?"

"Representative Mautino."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm sorry, Sir, that Amendment was a technical clean up language on the original Bill as presented and that is not the sever ability clause. I move for adoption. That's strictly technical."

"The Gentleman withdraws his request. The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 581. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 594, Representative Reilly."

"House Bill 594, a Bill for an Act creating the Illinois Comprehensive Budget Reform Act. It's been read a second time previously. Floor Amendment #2, Reilly, amends House Bill 594 as amended."

"Representative Reilly, do you want to move this Bill back to the Order of Second Reading?" 19  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Yes, I ask leave to bring this back ......"

"The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 594 from the Order of Third Reading to the Order of Second Reading. Are there objections? Hearing none, leave is granted."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #2 to House Bill 594 simply clarifies and amplifies the Amendment #1 which was adopted in Committee. What we're trying to do here is put a limitation on the gross and state expenditure. I would adoption of Amendment #2."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2. Representative Getty."

"Mr. Speaker, I question the germaneness of Amendment #2."

"I didn't hear you, Representative."

"I question the germaneness of Amendment #2. Recite to you that the title of the Bill is an Act creating the Illinois Comprehensive Budget Reform Act and amending certain Acts to conform thereto. Amendment #2 is totally different in that it would completely strike the title and it would be. It would strike that. It would insert without even changing the title, 'this shall be know as an Act and sighted as the Appropriations Limitation Act of 1981'. Were this Amendment to be adopted the title would read, 'an Act creating the Illinois Comprehensive Budget Reform Act' and the short title would be, an Appropriations Limitation Act of 1981'. I would suggest to you that it is a totally different subject matter. Obviously, Illinois Comprehensive Budget Reform is not the same as an Appropriation Limitation Act. The Amendment, I suggest to the chair is non-germane."

"Representative Reilly."

"Mr. Speaker, even if I though there were any merit to the comments of the Gentleman, which I'm not sure there 20  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 are. The fact is, that the changes he suggests were made by Amendment #1 in Committee. The Bill then came to the House floor on Second Reading. There were no Motions filed to table that Amendment. There was no question raised as to the germaneness of that Amendment. The Bill was then moved to Third Reading. I would suggest that the question is not timely. Amendment #2 doesn't do anything in that regard that Amendment #1 didn't do. The question is not timely and I would suggest we go on and consider the Amendment."

"Representative Getty."

"Mr. Speaker, the Amendment adopted in Committee has precisely the same defect in that it does not even try to amend the title. You would be left even with that and I will question the germaneness of that at an appropriate time but since we are on Amendment #2 in accordance with the Speaker's ruling of Friday, I'm being consistent with the Speaker's ruling of Friday. I'm now questioning Amendment #2. I again point out without regard to the fact that I reserve the right to question the germaneness of Amendment #1 and I agree that is equally non-germane. My point at this time is that Amendment #2 is clearly non-germane since it attempts to have a short title that has to do with Appropriation Limitations inserted into an Act that's called by title, 'the Illinois Comprehensive Budget Reform Act'."

"Amendment #2, the Parliamentarian tells me, Mr. Getty, is clearly germane and I'll rule that way. Representative Vinson, do you seek recognition?"

"No, Mr. Speaker. Your ruling satisfies my interest."

"Any further discussion on Amendment #2? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 594. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all 21  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"Amendment #3, McClain, amends House Bill 594 as amended."

"Representative McClain on Amendment #3 to House Bill 594."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, Amendment #3 to House Bill 594 amends the Amendment that Mr...."

"Representative Reilly, do you seek recognition?"

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. I question the germaneness of Amendment #3. The Bill deals and has dealt all along with the question of control on state finance. The Bill in the form that it came out of the Committee in the form that it is now with adoption of Amendment #2. Deals with the limitation on the growth in state expenditure. This seeks to replace it all together both changing the title and the Act that's being amended to make it a Bill that deals with an entirely different subject matter. That is, to deal with Road Fund diversions. While I don't, not bothered with the idea of dealing with Road Fund diversions it has nothing at all to do with the subject matter of the Bill. Either as introduced or as amended and I would suggest that it's not an order and it's not germane."

"Representative McClain."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. That's why my Amendment is exactly on point and germane. Mr. Reilly does limit expenditures including the Road Fund and growth. It amends the proper Section. I amend his Amendment properly and I also limit growth in spending from the Road Fund so my Amendment is properly germane. And it bothers me that you have sort of an Irish grin on your face."

"Representative Reilly, your point is well taken." 22  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 The Amendment, the Parliamentarian tells me, is not germane and the Chair so rules. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 630, Representative Rigney. The Gentleman moves to take House Bill 630 back to the Order of Second Reading. Are there objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Are there any Amendments?"

"House Bill 630 has been read a second time previously. Amendment #3, Rigney, amends House Bill 630 and so forth."

"Representative Rigney, on Amendment #3."

"Well, Speaker, House Bill 630 is a corporate farm reporting Bill. What it does is put a couple of exemptions into the reporting requirement. First of all, there is an exemption for agricultural land that is owned by a corporation in parcels of less than twenty-five acres. The Section, the second exemption is for those pieces of land that are used by utilities as rights of way. So these are two significant exemptions that have been asked for by the utilities and by corporations."

"Representative Schneider, on Amendment #3."

"Could you just tell me, Harlan, I didn't hear the exemption from what? Exemptions from what?"

"This is a corporate reporting Bill. For those corporations that own Illinois farm land and we are writing in two specific exemptions to the reporting requirement. #1, for those parcels of less than twenty-five acres and #2 as the utilities for their rights of way. In other words they don't have to report those on an annual basis."

"I apologize. I don't know what they're reporting though. You know, I don't know what..."

"They were under House Bill 630 they'll have to report their farm land holdings and we are saying we are not 23  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. looking upon utility rights of ways or small parcels of less than twenty-five acres as being bonafide Illinois farm land so therefore, they won't have to report."

"It doesn't exempt them from any pay-up, tax payments and stuff like that."

"Oh no, it exempts them from the reporting requirement that the Bill creates."

"Is there any further discussion. Representative Leinenweber."

"Will the Gentleman yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"On the twenty-five acre, how do you define the twenty-five acres? Is that a non-contiguous single ownership or what?"

"No, any twenty-five acre parcel."

"What if you owned five twenty-five acres parcels that were subdivided into separate twenty-five acres parcels. Would you be able to avoid reporting?"

"Yes, if they own twenty-five acres in one township and twenty-five over in some other township. Yes, they could be exempt from both."

"What if they're contiguous in the same township or just contiguous but under separate ...."

"If they would be contiguous they would be all one tract."

"So, what you're saying is that a corporation that has identical, identical corporation cannot own two parcels of property together they total more than twenty-five acres they are contiguous then they must report. Is that correct?"

"Yes. Keep in mind this has nothing to do with ownership. It's only the reporting requirement. We are not effecting ownership under 630." 24  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Yes, but only owners have to report though, Is that correct?"

"That's true. Any corporate owner that has attractive land of more than twenty-five acres, yes, he would have to report."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Rigney, to close."

"Mr. Speaker, I think the issue is rather clear. These are exemptions that the corporations and utilities have sought and I have agreed to them and I just merely ask you for your 'yes' vote."

"The question, the Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 648, Representative Deuster. The Gentleman, do you want to take your Bill back, Representative. The Gentleman asks leave to take House Bill 648 back to the Order of Second Reading. Are there objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 648 has been read a second time previously. Amendment #2 amends House Bill 648 on page one, line one, Representative Watson."

"Representative Watson, on Amendment #2."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #2 to House Bill 648, just to explain this, currently now pickup trucks have to be inspected two times a year. All second division vehicles have to be inspected every six months. What this Amendment would do would exempt from inspection those second division vehicles licensed under Section 3-815 of this code for a gross weight of eight thousand pounds or 25  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 less shall be subject to only tests every twelve months instead of every six months. This is a normal pickup truck. All we are doing is reducing the annual, making it an annual inspection instead of every six months. If you have any questions, why..."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Macoupin, Representative Bartulis."

"I have a question of the Sponsor of this Amendment."

"Go right ahead."

"Okay, Mr...."

"The Gentleman indicates he'll yield, Representative Bartulis."

"Representative Watson, is this the same Bill that you had in Motor Vehicles on truck inspections and..."

"No, it's not."

"Now you're trying to make an Amendment on another Bill?"

"No, this is not the same Bill I had in Motor Vehicles Commission. That Bill dealt with total exemption of vehicle inspection for those pickup trucks that were non-commercial. This goes still to an annual, they still have to have an annual inspection under this Amendment. This is not the same piece of legislation at all."

"Well, this is the same context as you had in your original Bill that was defeated in Motor Vehicles Committee."

"No, not at all. This is an annual inspection. What I was trying to do in Motor Vehicles was total exempt pickup trucks of non-commercial from any vehicle inspection. This still has an annual inspection to it. We are currently inspecting pickup trucks every six months. What this Amendment would do would simply make it an annual inspection instead of every six months." 26  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Mr. Speaker, may I address myself to the Bill?"

"Proceed, Representative."

"Rather to the Amendment. What Representative Watson is trying to do is the same thing he had done in Committee with similar Bill as his Amendment. This is a bad Bill and it was defeated in Motor Vehicles and I think it should be defeated now."

"Any further discussion? The Gentleman from Bureau, or from Cook, Representative Leverenz."

"Thank you. Would the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Is this an end run around Committee? Is that what this is?"

"No, I just explained to the previous speaker that this Bill is not anyway identical to the Bill I introduced in Committee."

"What does it do with the vehicles under eight thousand pounds?"

"They have to have an annual inspection instead of a six months inspection."

"Similar concept was brought into Committee. Isn't that correct?"

"No, not at all. The Bill that I sponsored in Committee would have totally exempted pickup trucks for non-commercial use. This still has the annual inspection."

"Well, all vehicles are uniformally inspected every six months. Is that correct?"

"I believe so, yes."

"Well, why would you want to do away with that?"

"Well, it's unnecessary. It's also an inconvenience."

"Who wants this Bill?"

"The people."

"Who came to you and asked for this? Who approached 27  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 you and asked you to introduce this?"

"I owned a pickup truck at one time. I had to go every six months. It's a definite inconvenience. A lot of pickup trucks are now used as passenger vehicles by just everyday citizens. I don't feel that this six month inspection is effective. I think if we go to an annual inspection it will be more convenient for the people. More convenient for the owner of the vehicle."

"So you heard the people, the witnesses that came before Committee especially the Gentleman that inspected all new pickup trucks right from the assembly line and approximately 50% of them had something wrong. Is the convenience of you and your pickup truck more important than the safety of the people on the streets?"

"The people that came in and testified in that Committee on inspections would have us inspecting automobiles, tricycles, bicycles, anything that moves. I don't believe that this is a concept that people appreciate and wo..and support. We still would have annual inspections under my legislation. You would be required to take your pickup truck to a motor safety vehicle lane and have it inspected."

"Well, excuse me, but may I put the question to you again. I think you gave me a total avoidance there. Is the convenience to you and your pickup truck more important than the people in the state that travel for safety reasons? That's why those inspections are there. Everyone that came before the Committee except, I think, the Sponsors were against the relaxation of any of the safety rules and regulations currently on the books in the state. Time after time we heard testimony. Especially the Gentleman that inspected the pickup trucks that you're talking about right from the assembly line. 50% of them 28  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 had some defect and that's exactly why we should have every six months inspection. Thank you."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from Henderson, Representative Neff."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. The previous speaker talked in Committee and if he'll recall every one of those people that testified against the testing of pickup trucks were people either involved in auto supplies or owned test lanes. As the Sponsor said of this Amendment, 'this Amendment is for the people'. The people are asking for this. This is a regulation that is unnecessary to have pickup trucks inspected twice a year. Illinois is only one of six states that have semi-annual inspection of trucks of any kind. We're only asking that pickup trucks, which most of them are built like a automobile, that they be inspected annually. We're not trying to take off inspection but we do ask that we inspect them annually because this is a cost to the public. More regulations that with the type of regulations that we do need to get away from if we're going to turn this country around. And I think most of us realize that. And again I repeat that the only people that have opposed this is the people in having test lanes and also the auto suppliers. But the people in general want this type of legislation and would like to have this Amendment. I support this Amendment."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from Macon, Representative Donovan."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. I rise to support this Amendment. The previous speaker said a minute ago who requests this Bill. I've got oh I'd say four or five letters and basically people that are retired that drive a pickup possibly four or five thousand miles a year around the 29  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 village or out to fish or something like that and they're objecting to the twice yearly test. Now, we're not doing away with the test. We're just spreading it out to one year. The argument about 50% of the trucks being bad when they come off the line well they can't be sold until their first tested and so this just spreads it to one year opposed to six months. I don't think it's a bad Bill. I think it's a good Bill, good Amendment and I would ask you to support it."

"Any further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Huskey."

"Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Speaker, thank you. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I reluctantly rise to oppose this Amendment. This is a bypass of Committee. This Bill appeared before Committee in three or four different forms. This, if this Amendment is put on this Bill it takes inspection off of about two-thirds of the motor vehicles on the roads. Now, I myself own six vehicles that would come under this category and I am happy to have a place that I can send for just a few dollars to get it inspected to know my vehicle is safe. To know that the drivers that are driving this vehicle are driving a safe vehicle. Where can you take a vehicle and get all the inspections made that they make in these safety lanes that supervised by the state police, the Department of Transportation and the state police of the State of Illinois supervise this operation. It's ran in most cases very honestly and the state police are absolutely opposed to this type of legislation. The Department of Transportation is opposed to this type of legislation. Now, Ladies and Gentlemen, we're going to go a step backwards if we adopt this Amendment. There are going to be trucks and these small trucks that are running down the road with wheels falling 30  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 off which they made some random inspections and have already showed how bad trucks are in some recent TV stations. I can imagine what they would be like if we would remove the safety inspection that we have that's working so well in the last few years. Certainly, somebody wants to oppose every law that's made. There's a lot of laws on the books that I don't like but this is certainly a good one. This lets everyone know that the vehicle their driving is safe and I think it should even go further. But I certainly will oppose this Bill against a very fine Sponsor, I mean oppose the Amendment against a very fine Sponsor who I have a great admiration for. But certainly he's a little mislead on the safety on trying to remove safety from our motor vehicle program. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Oppose this Amendment."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Kelly (Dick)."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also rise to support the Representative's Amendment. I don't think pickup trucks are any worse condition than any other vehicle on the road. Cars and trucks I've seen around here that don't have lights or directions or stops on the back of the equipment. And I'll tell you something else, Ladies and Gentlemen. I've never seen manners any worse than they are right now. Even if a car or a truck has all the equipment necessary people are not putting on their directional signals. They're breaking the law in every extent. I think this would save money. It would certainly still require an inspection once a year and it's a waste of time. Every six months they have a vehicle, pickup vehicle inspected."

"The Gentleman from McClain, Representative Ropp."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. Let's 31  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 not be mislead here. The only thing that that sticker does is to guarantee that the day that that vehicle was inspected it passed the inspection. That doesn't mean that the very next day or as soon as it moves out of that inspection lane everything can completely go out of wack. Those people who have stated that they are in total support of safety, when a similar kind of a Bill was introduced in Committee was said that all automobiles should be check annually, voted 'no'. I say this is a good Amendment and if we're really concerned with safety then we ought to proceed and get all vehicles so that those small businesses who are concerned about losing their jobs will certainly be supplemented with the additional vehicle inspection that would come about. This is a good Amendment and I urge your support."

"The Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Brummer."

"I move the previous question."

"The Gentleman moves the previous question. All in favor signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Gentleman's Motion prevails. Representative Watson, to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Several people have eluded that this is a similar piece of legislation that I introduced in a Motor Vehicles Committee. This in no way is identical to that piece of legislation. That legislation would have totally eliminated the inspection on some pickup trucks. This Bill, the inspection continues on an annual basis instead of every six months. I believe that those of you that would go back home and talk to the people in your district that own pickup trucks and talk to them about the inconvenience and probably the dissatisfaction, the over all dissatisfaction that they have with the inspection in 32  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 general will find that the people are overwhelmingly in support of this concept. I would appreciate a 'yes' vote on this Amendment."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 648. All in favor will signify by voting 'aye', all opposed by voting 'no'. Representative Steele, to explain his vote. One minute."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this good Amendment. This is an Amendment that helps the working people. In my district, in the parking lots of the steel plants, half of those cars are pickup trucks. Half of those cars are pickup trucks and to require that they be inspected twice a year is ridiculous. There's no other state in the Midwest that requires twice a year inspections. Only Missouri requires once a year. Indiana, Ohio, Iowa and other states don't even have annual inspections and I say that this is an excellent Amendment. It helps the working people of this state. If cars aren't inspected certainly once a year and it effects only small trucks the large trucks would still be inspected twice a year but the small trucks should only be inspected once a year. Good Amendment and I urge the support of everybody here."

"Representative Mulcahey, to explain his vote. One minute."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm going to vote 'no' on this Bill because quite frankly, I think they ought to be inspected about once a month. And until the assembly lines in this country can start putting out a decent product instead of the junk they've been putting out I think it ought to be once a month. So I think twice a year is reasonable."

"Representative Horsey, one minute to explain your vote." 33  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Yes, I'm voting 'no' on this Amendment and I think I would like to just call your attention to a couple of things that I, and I believe will be repercussions on this. For one thing, the system is working and I haven't had too many complaints on it. Being a farmer myself, I prefer to drive like ten miles and get my truck tested twice a year because there's testing lane in business ten miles from home. Now if this process goes through, what you're going to find is that I'm going to have to drive about 50, 55, 60 miles to get my truck tested once a year. So I don't which way we're better off and I think there is a problem with this Amendment and I would vote 'no' on it now."

"Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 88 voting 'aye', 51 voting 'no', one voting 'present' and the Gentleman's Motion prevails and the Amendments adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 694, Representative Levin. Gentleman, do you want it back to the Order of Second Reading. The Gentleman asks leave to return his Bill to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections. Hearing none, leave is granted. Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Amendment #3, Levin-Hallstrom, amends House Bill 694 on page ...."

"Representative Levin, on Amendment #3."

"Before we get to Amendment #3 there is a Motion that has been filed in connection with Amendments 1 & 2. It's my intention to replace Amendments 1 & 2 with Amendment #4."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to previous Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"Motion, I move to table Amendments 1 & 2 to House 34  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Bill 694, Representative Levin."

"Representative Levin."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, Amendment #4, which we'll get to in a couple of minutes, has been worked out with the Illinois Office of Education. It will include almost everything that's in Amendment #1 & 2 plus additional changes requested by the Office of Education. So I would ask to table at this point Amendments 1 & 2. This has been cleared with both the Chairman and the Minority spokesperson."

"The Gentleman moves to table Amendments 1 & 2. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendments #1 & 2 are tabled. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #3, Levin-Hallstrom, amends ...."

"Representative Levin, on Amendment #3."

"Mr. Speaker, I will withraw Amendment #3. It's ...."

"#3, withraw #3. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #4, Levin-Hallstrom..."

"Representative Levin, on Amendment #4."

"Mr. Speaker, Amendment #4 is the Amendment I eluded to a moment ago. It contains virtually everything in Amendments 1 & 2 plus a couple of other provisions which were requested by the State Board. There was a question raised in Committee in terms of the length of time for an appeal under the due process appeal procedure and that has been worked out with the State Board. The provisions in here are acceptable now and supported by the State Board. This has been cleared with everybody who had raised a question. I would ask the adoption of Amendment #4."

"Is there any discussion to Amendment #4 to House Bill 694? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #4. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', 35  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 696, Representative Levin. The Gentleman moves to take, ask leave to take House Bill 696 from the Order of Third Reading back to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none; leave is granted. Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Floor Amendment #3, Levin-Hallstrom, amends House Bill 696 on page...."

"Representative Levin."

"The same procedure here, Mr. Speaker. I would ask to table Amendments 1 & 2."

"Do you have a Motion filed?"

"Yes."

"Read the Motion would you, Mr. Clerk?"

"Motion, I move to table Amendment #1 & 2 to House Bill 696, Representative Levin."

"The Gentleman moves to table Amendments #1 & 2 to House Bill 696. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendments are tabled. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #3,..."

"Representative Levin, on Amendment #3."

"Mr. Speaker, Amendment #3 again was worked out with the State Board. It simply repositions language that is in Amendment #2. I ask the adoption of Amendment #3."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 696. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments." 36  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Third Reading. House Bill 698, Representative Daniels. Do you want to move this Bill back, Representative? The Gentleman asks leave to move House Bill 698 from the Order of Third Reading to the Order of Second Reading. Are there objections. Hearing none, leave is granted. Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Floor Amendment #3, Daniels, amends House Bill 698 on page one, line ...."

"Representative Daniels, on Amendment #3."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 698 sets up a special fund in the State Treasurer in which certain fees for the real estate brokers and salesmen are deposited. Amendment #3 merely states that the monies deposited in that fund shall not be appropriated prior to June 30, 1984. It's an Amendment requested by the Department and I know of no objections since they've requested it."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 698. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 711, Representative Cullerton. The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 711 from the Order of Third Reading to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. House Bill 711 is now on the Order of Second Reading. Are there any Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"Amendment #2, Kane, amends House Bill 711 ...."

"Representative Kane, on Amendment #2."

"I would withdraw Amendment #2."

"Withdraw Amendment #2. Further Amendments." 37  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Floor Amendment #3, Kane, amends House Bill ..."

"Representative Kane, on Amendment #3."

"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, Amendment #3 provides limited privilege to rape crisis organizations. It provides an in camera proceeding if the defendant feels that the information is need for the defense and I think this has been worked out with most people involved. I would urge the adoption of Amendment #3."

"Is there any discussion to Amendment #3, House Bill 711? All those in favor signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #3 is adopted. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #4, Cullerton-Johnson, amends House Bill 711 as follows."

"Representative Cullerton. Representative Cullerton yields to Representative Johnson on Amendment #4."

"Mr. Speaker, I think this is agreed to by the Sponsor. It just repeals Section 2 of a chapter just in our ..... rule of evidence that ..... that should be repealed. That's why...."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #4 to House Bill 711. Is there any discussion? Representative Greiman."

"I wonder if the Gentleman would yield for a question."

"He indicates he will."

"What is Section 2 of the Evidence Act.."

"Section 2 of the Evidence, of the Evidence Act provides them the trial of any civil action in which any party sues or defends is a representative of a deceased or incompetent party. No adverse party interested in the action should be allowed to testify in his own behalf to any conversation of 38  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 the deceased or incompetent person and so forth. This is a Bill that came out, I think last year 135 to nothing and it just basically brings Illinois rules of evidence in line with other states so we don't have an archaic exception. This sort of thing would be covered under heresay and this just adds an additional rule of evidence as unnecessary."

"Well, on the Amendment,..."

"You were Sponsor of this last time, you and Representative Jaffe."

"Well, I make mistakes. As I understand it though, Section 2 of the Evidence Act, the Deadman's Act has been around for a long time and it has been there to assure that people who have conversations with dead people while they were alive can't vary the terms of those later on because when there are two people to a conversation and one has died we have no way of bringing the decedent back to verify the truth or falsity of the conversation. The heresay rule probably doesn't really change it because the decedent or the person adverse merely testifies to the ..... or could after this Bill at least testify to the conversation. And it wouldn't be heresay because it would be a conversation. A verbal act if you will. So we should do this with some thought. Don't you think there will be some more frauds of the people who have conversations with the formerly living are likely to give their slant of a transaction without having some other kind of slant provided?"

"Well, the thinking is in every other state in the union, I know of and this House and the Committee considered this last year is that normal rules of evidence would prohibit substantive testimony with the decedent anyway under heresay rules. There's almost nothing that heresay wouldn't cover and it simply adds to the arcaneness of the law and prohibits relevant testimony that can allow 39  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 the trier a fact to understand the factual setting of a particular case and graphs an artificial exception on that that doesn't really serve any purpose. So there wouldn't be any fraud perpetrated because anything that would be, that would be, for example, if I were to testify with the decendant the conversation with the formerly living as you say and were testify that they said x or y or z in almost every case, and in every case it would be relevant. That would be prohibited as heresay anyway. This just simply allows the facts to be heard in a particular case without this extra wreason hy testimony is inadmissible. As I say, this concept came out last year, I think unanimously out of this chamber and I got held up because of the emergency rule over in the Senate."

"If you feel it is sufficiently controversial I'd be glad to talk to you about it. Representative Cullerton has been kind enough to return this to Second Reading to accommodate me and I certainly have no desire if you feel this is going to be a controversial concept to follow up a good Bill on behalf of Representative Cullerton. I thought it was non-controversial or I wouldn't have put it on."

"Well, I'm not that hung up on it. I wouldn't, the process late in the hour of the day as it were and I don't want to hang up the process. Okay, thanks."

"Representative Leinenweber."

"Has this Amendment been printed and distributed?"

"Mr. Clerk, has this Amendment been printed and distributed?"

"The Amendment has been printed and distributed."

"Let the record show that Representative Epton has arrived. Representative Leinenweber."

"I couldn't find a copy either in the majority files back there or on my desk or on my seatmate's desk. I would 40  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 ask the Gentleman a couple of questions. Does this repeal the Deadman's Act?"

"Yes, it does. Is this on."

"Yes, but I didn't hear your answer."

"The answer is yes."

"Okay, I've been handed one. Mr. Speaker, Members, one more question. When is the effective date of the Amendment?"

"It's repealed whenever the effective date of the Act is."

"Alright, therefore, this involves a matter of procedures so if the Act was signed by the Governor on August 31 and if one is in the midst of a trial involving a decedent then all of a sudden a witness who previously could not testify would all of a sudden be able to testify."

"Can you think of any situation where that wouldn't be the case, Representative Leinenweber?"

"Pardon."

"I said, can you tell me any situation where any effective date of any Act wouldn't possibly coincide with some trial whether it's August 31 or January 31."

"Well, I think something like this where you are effecting a rather long standing rule that there ought to be some provision that to lead the thing in so that, for example, would apply to all incidents or conversations occurring after a certain or at least for all causes of action filed after a certain date rather than just to become effective on a particular date."

"We can take care of that in the Senate. I wish you'd tell me now. If you're going to object to this Amendment I'm going to withdraw it because..."

"Yes, I do object to the Amendment." 41  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Mr. Speaker, as I say I have no desire to tie up Representative Cullerton's Bill. This is a good Bill with surplusage so I would move to withdraw the Amendment."

"The Gentleman moves to withdraw the Amendment. We've now wasted ten minutes on that Bill. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 748, Representative Kelly. The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 748 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Are there any Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Kelly-Kosinski, amends House Bill 748..."

"Representative Kelly, on Amendment #1."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. House Bill 748 is legislation which relates to the firearms owners' identification card. What the Bill does is require that the applicant to to a police station to apply rather than mailing in their application. This particular Amendment would allow them to go to any police station, state police station to make this application. I would also identify what is identification. In the Bill in its initial stage it relates to identification. This Amendment details that such as a valid driver's license, valid voter's registration, etcetera, would be, and I believe that this Amendment now removes any potential opposition to this Bill and I would move for or request your favorable support of Amendment #1 to House Bill 748."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Leverenz."

"With the procedure you set up, could you indicate the cost to the Department of Law Enforcement?" 42  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"As far as the cost factor goes, I would say that that it would be very minimal if anything, and I don't anticipate any increased expenditure of employment or cost to provide this thing. In fact, even the applicant has to provide a stamped envelope to the local police station, so this would be a...no cost in my opinion."

"You're mandating something to the locals. How do you fit with the state's Mandates Act?"

"As far as I can see that this is not any...any cost, so there wouldn't be any conflict in it at all."

"You're aware of House Bill 328, the repeal of the fireowners' I.D. card?"

"I supported the Bill, as you recall in Committee, so I am very aware of it, yes. And I would say that I'm not sure if that one is going to go through. If we're going to have a firearms owners' identification program in Illinois, it should be a proper one, and this would tigthen up the loopholes that we have, and it would prevent someone from using false...Dilinger and Rin Tin Tin and some others individuals names or pictures in obtaining firearms cards."

"If you're going to..."

"If the program gets repealed under your legislation, that is another subject which we'll address later, but if we're going to have the program, this is a much improved program which the director supports."

"Okay, I talked with the director, too, and I understand he now supports just the repeal of it. Thank you."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Meyer."

"Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, would the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"He indicates he will." 43  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Would this mandate that the police department mail this in, or will it sit on the chief's desk for two or thee weeks, or two months, or three months if the applicant is not somebody he particularly cares for. Do they have that discretion?"

"Yes, Representative. Under the Amendment on page two it does indicate that it has to be forwarded within 48 hours to the Department of Law Enforcement."

"Thank you. Thank you."

"Any further discussion? Representative Vinson."

"Yes, will the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"He indicates he will."

"Does the state's Mandate Act apply to this, and if so are we required to reimburse local law enforcement agencies for the cost of the service?"

"No, in my opinion it doesn't because it is not an increased cost factor. This is not anything that is going to cost the local police departments another cent or investment in the..."

"Who are they going to have collect this material?"

"I didn't...please repeat your question."

"Who are they going to have collect the material? A state employee?"

"They are going to have the...various individuals that are the desk sergeants and the other persons that are at the front of the police station will accept the application, and it will be, I would say that something which would very much would seek and would like to...like to have a program such as this."

"Mr. Speaker,..."

"Mr. Vinson."

"Would the Chair care to rule on whether the Mandate's Act applies to this and whether if this were to become law, 44  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 we would be obliged to reimburse the local agencies for the cost involved?"

"It is not in order for the Chair to rule on that, Representative. Representative Kelly to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't visualize any cost at all in implementing this program. It is one that is very easily...to handle. All you have to do is accept the application, and if an individual has a stamp and an envelope it would take a matter of seconds to go through that procedure and even with a stamped envelope being provided there wouldn't be any cost when they mail the item down to the Department of Law Enforcement. I request your favorable support."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #1 to House Bill 748. All in favor signify by voting 'aye', all opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Representative Robbins to explain his vote."

"I think you'll want to take a right good look at this Bill...at this Amendment at what it is going to do to your local law enforcement and your local requirements. It may not cost...it may not cost you a great lot more, but our Department of...our Department of Firearms Applications can't get the things out now in six months, and it'll be a year before you get your application back if you run this through local law enforcement on this. I think there ought to be more red votes. I think it is a bad Amendment, and I think you should take a close look at it. Thank you."

"Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 96 voting 'aye', 40 voting 'no', and two voting 'present', and the Gentleman's Motion prevails. Amendment #1 is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments." 45  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Third Reading. House Bill 780...Oops, just a minute, I have a request for a fiscal note that has been filed on House...on your Bill, Representative Kelly. Request for a fiscal note has been filed, to House Bill 748 will have to remain on the Order of Second Reading. House Bill 780, Representative Leinenweber. The Gentleman asks leave to renew...return House Bill 780 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted...Are there any Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"Amendment #5, Leinenweber, amends House Bill 780 as amended."

"Representative Leinenweber on Amendment #5."

"Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, House Bill 780 seeks to establish the Uniform Information Practices Code. Amendment #5 was suggested by the Democratic staff, and it takes care of objections from the state...some of the state agencies and units of local government that objected to what they thought might be a rather large cost associated with the requirement that they disclose their information, their records. So Amendment...previously the Bill provided for a reimbursement on a commercial...for copying work on...for a commercial rate. Amendment #5 in part seeks to enable the agencies who have to comply with freedom information, allow them to charge a reasonable fee based upon the agencies actual costs for the services of government personnel in retrieval. The Amendment also seeks to tigthen up slightly the attorney's work product exception to the freedom of information provisions. And there are certain other technical changes. I move the adoption of Amendment #5."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #5 to House Bill 780. All in 46  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #6, Getty-Leinenweber, amends House Bill 780..."

"Representative Getty."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, Amendment #6 again is also an Amendment basically technical in nature to solve more clearly the types of information which would be privileged. It would set out clearly that alcoholism, alcohol rehabilitation, drug addiction, drug rehabilitation, mental health, or developmental disabilities would be within that privileged class. I would move for the adoption of the Amendment."

"Is there any discussion? Amendment #6. The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #6. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it, and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 804, Representative Macdonald. The Lady asks leave to return that Bill to the Order of Second Reading. Are there objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Amendment #1, Macdonald, amends House Bill 804..."

"Representative Macdonald on Amendment #1."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This Amendment was recommended to me to exempt House Bill 804 from the Mandate Act. The effect of the amount is only $30,000 which is less than $1,000 and less than 50 in the aggregate for all local governments affected. So I would ask your support of this Amendment."

"Is there any discussion? The Lady moves for the 47  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. adoption of Amendment #1 to House Bill 804. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it, and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 839, Representative Karpiel. The Lady asks leave to return House Bill 839 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Are there any Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"House Bill 839 has been read a second time previously. Motions been filed. I move to table Amendments #1 and 2 to House Bill 839, Representative Karpiel."

"Representative Karpiel on your Motion."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Amendment #3 to House Bill 839 which is taking the place of Amendments #1 and 2 just makes the Bill technically correct, and it was worked out in conjunction with the people from the IMRF to more clearly indicate the intent of the Bill."

"The Lady moves to table Amendments #1 and 2 to House Bill 839. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it, and the Amendment is adopted....the Motion carries, and the Amendments are tabled."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."

"Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Karpiel, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Karpiel on Amendment #3."

"I think I just went through that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."

"The Lady moves for the adoption of Amendment #3 to 48  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 House Bill 839. Is there any discussion? All those in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 874, Representative Reilly. Representative Reilly on House Bill 874. The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 874 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Read the Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Floor Amendment #4, McClain, amends House Bill 874 on page one, line one and so forth."

"Representative McClain on Amendment #4 to House Bill 874."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, Amendment #4 to House Bill 874 is an Amendment that I tried to explain last night until I found out the Amendment had not been printed and distributed. This Amendment would permit regional superintendents with the consent of the local school board to operate special education classes for children from orphanages, foster care homes, childrens' homes. It would also provide that the regional superintendent may claim for state reimbursement for such classes. The State Board of Education approves of the Amendment. Mr. Reilly has no objection. I would move for the adoption of Amendment #4."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #4 to House Bill 874. Representative Hoffman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor of the Amendment yield? What...is anyone offering these services now on the intermediate level?"

"Yes, Doctor Hoffman, there are some regional 49  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 superintendents that right now run these kind of programs for foster care homes and so what this would do is legalize what they are already doing. And, hence, that is why my local superintendent asked me to have this Amendment drafted."

"This will provide that the local school board can make an agreement with a regional superintendent to provide these services."

"A regional, for instance, special education class for like kids form foster care homes apply for state reimbursement, but it is always with the consent of the local school board."

"Will the reimbursement go to the local school board or will it go to the regional superintendent?"

"It would have to go through the local school board to the regional superintendent."

"Alright, thank you."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative McClain to close."

"I just move for the adoption of Amendment #4."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #4 to House Bill 874. All those in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it, and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1052, Representative Ewing. Representative Ewing on the floor? The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 1052 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Are there any Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Ewing, amends House Bill 1052."

"Representative Ewing on Amendment #2."

"Mr. Speaker, on this Bill there is Amendment #1 which I 50  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 would like to ask leave of the House to table. I would also like to table Amendment #2 and then adopt Amendment #3."

"The Gentleman moves to table Amendments #1 and 2 to House Bill 1052. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it, and Amendments #1 and 2 are tabled. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Ewing, amends House Bill 1052 by deleting everything after the enacting clause and inserting in lieu thereof the following."

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, Amendment #3 is similar to Amendment #1 and 2 which were...which consisted in the Bill as introduced in Committee. This is not any radical change. It only corrects some language which was left out of the original Bill and out of the original Amendment. And I would move for the adoption."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 1052. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1030, Representative Donovan. The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 1030 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Are there any Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"Amendment #1, Donovan, amends House Bill 1030..."

"Representative Donovan on Amendment #1."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Amendment #1 to House Bill 1030 allows the full-time teacher of professional rank to be added to the...from the School of Medicine of SIU to be added to the Medical. 51  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Examining Committee here in the State of Illinois. Right now we have no downstate people. This is a Bill that has been put forward by the Department of Registration, Education, and the Medical Society. It allows for one downstate candidate to fill the...to sit on the Medical Examining Committee. So I move for the adoption of Amendment #1 to House Bill 1030."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #1. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', al opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it, and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Donovan, amends House Bill 1030..."

"Representative Donovan."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. House...Amendment #2 is also put forward by the Department of Registration and Education. It allows...it eliminates a provision in the Medical Practice Act to eliminate the contractual agreements between states and territories as far as issuing a license to doctors. The reason for this is right now it stands as a barrier to allowing certainly some doctors of great stature to come to Illinois as...to teach mainly, quite frankly, and they asked for the elimination of this...of this Section. But it does not preclude what they do instead of...what they do after that then is endorse the doctor if he wants to become a licensed doctor in this state. So it removes the barrier of a strict limitation of a reciprocal agreement and allows the endorsement, then, by the Department of Registration and Education. Thank you."

"Thank you. Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Jaffe."

"Yeah, would the Gentleman yield to a question?" 52  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"He indicates he would be happy..."

"Yeah, we have the problems with the foreign licensed doctors, and at that time R and E came out against the foreign licensed doctors. And you're talking about endorsement, and it was our understanding that R and E always had endorsement. Isn't that correct?"

"My understanding is that the Medical Practice Act...only if they had reciprocal agreements with the state were they allowed to practice and/or teach in the state. Under this that would strike that and they would still have the endorsement process."

"Well, how would it...what would it do for the foreign language doctors who were in our institutions for a long period of time. Would it do anything for them?"

"No, they're...they're already here, grandfathered in."

"No, they're...they're not grandfathered in. They've actually been thrown out because we couldn't get that Bill through that would keep them in. Who really...who really wants this? Does the Medical Society want this?"

"The Department of Registration and Education. I have a letter from them right here that's promoting this Amendment."

"Well, I think..."

"And the Medical Society."

"Well, I think...yeah, I think basically that the Department of Registration and Education has probably been doing this for a number of years, probably doing it illegally, and now they want us to confirm what they've been doing for years and which...which they've had no authority to do. I have no great feelings about it, but I think everybody ought to realize that the Department of R and E has been doing this for a number of years. It has been doing it surreptitiously, and has been doing it at its 53  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 will for people that they want to do it for and for people that they don't want to do it for, that is another story. I think that really could be one of the great scandals of R and E, but I won't oppose the Amendment."

"The Gentleman from DeWitt, Representative Vinson."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"He indicates he will."

"As I understand the Amendment, Representative, what you're saying is that it is no longer necessary, after this Amendment were to become law, for a foreign jurisdiction to grant reciprocal privileges in order for us to grandfather him in. Is that correct?"

"That...that's right, Sam. Yes."

"Well, to the Bill...to the Amendment, Mr. Speaker."

"Proceed."

"I would have a problem with the Amendment for a number of reasons. The most important being that the only control that we have which causes other jurisdictions to license people that we have licensed is that we require that...that they...that we...we require this degree of reciprocity on our Act. And what the Sponsor would be doing in this particular case would be removing the only tool we have to make these reciprocal exchanges. What we're doing in...by this Amendment is disadvantaging Illinois licensed doctors and advantaging, for instance, herbal doctors of medicine in India. Those are people the Department would propose to license under some of their actions, and with this...with this Amendment they would license Indian herbal doctors who graduate from India Medical Herbal Schools, and I want to emphasize to the Members of the chamber that this is not...this is not an extreme example. This is an actual example of a decision made by this Committee of the 54  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Department in the past month...in the past two months. We would be licensing Indian herbal medicine doctors and not requiring in exchange for that that India recognize graduates of the University of Illinois Medical School who have...who have fully qualified to practice medicine in all its branches in Illinois. For those reasons I would oppose this, and I think this is a very destructive Amendment. I would urge a 'no' vote on the Amendment."

"Representative Getty."

"Will the Sponsor yield? Representative Donovan, who besides the Department of Registration and Education has expressed their support and endorsement for this if anyone?"

"The Medical Society."

"The Illinois State Medical Society? Alright, in that, I note you're talking to the representative from the Department of R and E. You don't know that of your own knowledge."

"I have personally not been contacted. That is right."

"Well, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, I am going to join with Representative Vinson in his objections. I think until we can see a clear concensus that this would do something beneficial for the state it ought to be opposed. I can see a real problem with Illinois doctors not being able to go into other states and take advantage of the reciprocity provisions which we enjoy with most of our sister states. I don't think that Illinois should deprive its citizens who become doctors of that right, and I am going to vote 'no'."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Hallstrom."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Donovan, I just want to make sure I 55  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 heard correctly. Did you say that the Illinois State Medical Society is supporting this Amendment?"

"I originally said that I had not originally been contacted. I have to say, and after thought, that I was contacted by an associate...by a member of those. I did not have a letter on it though. But I was contacted by a lobbyist from their...their society."

"And they said that they support the Amendment?"

"Yes, they do."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Donovan to close."

"I would just move for the favorable consideration of Amendment #2 to House Bill 1030."

"The Gentleman asks for the adoption of Amendment...moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 1030. All those in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. All those in favor of the adoption of the Amendment #2 to House Bill 1030 will signify by voting 'aye', all those opposed by voting 'no'. Have...voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 29 voting 'aye', 96 voting 'no', one voting 'present', and the Gentleman's Motion fails. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendment."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1323, Representative Karpiel. The Lady asks leave to return 1323 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"Amendment #3, Karpiel; amends House Bill 1323..."

"Representative Karpiel on Amendment #3."

"I believe a Motion was filed on this...on House Bill 1323 to table Amendment #1, and I move that Amendment #1 be tabled." 56  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"The Lady moves to table Amendment #1 to House Bill 1323. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it, and Amendment #1 is tabled. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Karpiel..."

"Representative Karpiel on Amendment #3."

"Amendment #3 is the same as Amendment #1 that was adopted in Committee. However, this is technically correct."

"Is there any discussion? The Lady moves for the adoption of Amendment #3. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The Amendment...Amendment is adopted. The 'ayes' have it. Any further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1157...House Bill 1157. The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 1157 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Hannig, amends House Bill 1157 on page one and so forth."

"Representative Hannig on Amendment #3."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. House Bill 1157 creates the Illinois Wildlife Habitat Commission. This Amendment #3 simply is at the suggestion of the Department of Conservation as how they feel the membership should be construed. I agree with the Amendment, and accept the Amendment, and would move for the adoption of Amendment #3."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 1157. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. 57  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1353, Representative Hoffman. 1353...The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 1353 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Read the Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1353 has been read a second time previously. Motion. I move to table Amendment #1 to House Bill 1353, Representative Hoffman."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I move to table Amendment #1 so that we...which was adopted in Committee so that we can consider Amendment #2."

"The Gentleman moves to table Amendment #1. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #1 is adopt...is tabled. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Hoffman, amends House Bill 1353 on..."

"Representative Hoffman on Amendment #2."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. House Bill 1353, or I should say Amendment #2 to House Bill 1353 is the School Problem's Commission proposal for a change in the general distributing fund to schools. The Commission has made a unanimous recommendation to provide for adjustment in the Title I waiting, moving the average waiting at the...the statewide average waiting from .50 to .53 and condensing the maximums from .675 to .65. We also changed the assessed evaluation numbers per pupil in the Bill to move the guaranteed level up to 1567 or 1566 from the present 1464. Most of the 58  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 majority of that increase from 1464 to 1567 is provided by increased assessed evaluation and reduced pupils. In fact, the bulk of it is, this provides for an appropriation level of $1,520,000,000. This figure is arrived at by the School Problem's Commission through adjustments in the...general...in the catagorical aids as well as an increase of 7...all over...total increase of $79,000,000. And I would move for the adoption of Amendment #2."

"The Gentleman moves for adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 1353. Is there any discussion? Representative Schneider."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. I stand in opposition even though I am a Member of the Commission, because I do believe there are additional...I'm sorry, Doc. Your usual slothful behavior."

"Proceed with your question, Representative Schneider."

"And...yes, thank you. Anyhow, in opposition, Mr. Speaker and Members, simply because I think there are other funds available, Amendment #3 which succeeds this one will increase the amount by $5,000,000 and increase the per pupil, I think, approximately maybe like $4. When we're looking at the concepts that are being offered this year by the Governor, one of his thrusts is to move away from catagoricals and towards general distributive aid. Now, if you want that and you think that that concept has some basis in reality, which I happen to think may or may not depending on how you feel about catagoricals, I think you ought to take a good look at the next Amendment. The next Amendment really does allow for more funds to be distributed throughout your school districts than this one. This falls about $5,000,000 short, I think, of a fair per pupil guarantee which incorporates not only some of the new 59  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 money, but as well as some of the increases that naturally accrue as a consequence of declining pupil enrollment and increased assessed evaluation., So I respectfully suggest that you vote 'no' even though Representative Hoffman is the Sponsor...or because he is the Sponsor."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Reilly."

"Thank you....thank you....thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. As is well known, we will end up doing the appropriation eventually and determining levels through that, and then adjusting the formula to that. It seems to me Representative Hoffman has a sensible level from which to begin that process. This the beginning not the end of the process. This won't determine anything about what your school district gets. It simply determines a beginning to that process. I think we ought to support Representative Hoffman's Amendment, put it on the Bill, defeat the next Amendment, and go on with the business."

"Representative Jones."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Hoffman, you indicated that you are changing the waiting of Title I from .675 to .65. What is the net effect that it will have on the disadvantaged students that are compacted in the cities and urban areas?"

"It depends on the percentage of Title I students in that particular setting. For example, those who are at the average will move up about three points. Those who are at the top level will move down about three points. The...under the present Title I waiting program it would be in terms of the total for a school district in which you may have some particular interests from about $500,000,000 down to about $494,000,000." 60  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"So what the net effect of this Amendment is doing in essence is taking the money away from the disadvantaged students who generated it who are at the max and shifted to those who are not generated...those school districts. Am I correct?"

"In effect, in effect what this is doing is attempting...what we attempted to do was to take a look at the total redistribution with the new numbers that were available, and there was a consensus on the part of the Commission that this particular program or this particular adjustment should be made so that the gross for any one school district was not excessive in relation to the growth of other school districts."

"Mr. Speaker, when I address the Amendment, I think we should take a very, very close...at Amendment #2. Amendment #2 is a Robin Hood in reverse. Here we are robbing the poor to give to the rich. We went through this battle more than two years ago on this very same subject, and the Title I students throughout the State of Illinois who are generating the funds...what this Amendment does is take the funds from those students and shift it to the other individuals. This is wrong. We changed the law more than two years ago. Now we have Representative Hoffman coming with an Amendment to rob the poor and give to the rich. This Amendment should be defeated."

"Representative Stuffle, do you seek recognition? Representative Stuffle."

"Yes, will the Sponsor yield to a question?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Hoffman, your Amendment deals both with the guarantee and with the Title I waitings. Is that correct?"

"That is correct." 61  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Does your Bill without this Amendment...if this Amendment were not to go on, would the Title I...the .53 and the .65 still be reflected in the Bill without the Amendment?"

"Would you repeat that question?"

"If this Amendment fails to go on, would the Bill still have the .53 and the .65 Title I waitings reflected in it?"

"No."

"Does the Bill, without the Amendment, have any relationship to the Title I waitings?"

"No."

"Thank you."

"Any further discussion? Representative Hoffman to close."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This is not a question of robbing the poor for the rich. Let me point out to you that at the present funding level under the Bill we passed last Session, 3114, the City of Chicago receives $474,000,000. Under this program they will receive $493,000,000 or $494,000,000. The relationship I was establishing before would be if we did nothing. And I say to you today, Ladies and Gentlemen, that as we looked at the general distribution of funds across the state, we came to the conclusion that this was the most equitable and the fairest way to deal with it. We are talking about an increase for the school district which was identified by a Member from the other side of the aisle of an approximate increase of...$20,000,000. We are not taking. What we are doing is we're saying that we believe that better degree of equity between all school districts can be established with this Amendment. I, for one, would certainly not be part of what the Representative from the other side of the aisle suggested. He knows my history 62  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 here. He knows the time and the effort that I have spent in this. He knows of the degree to which the Commission with Representative Schneider and others who have participated to be fair and evenhanded with all. We continue to do so with this Amendment. And I ask for your support of this Amendment."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 1353. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2. All in favor will signify by voting 'aye', all opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 37 voting 'aye', 103 voting 'no', and one voting 'present', and the Gentleman's Motion fails. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Schneider, amends House Bill 1353..."

"Representative Schneider on Amendment #3. Representative Schneider on Amendment #3."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members. As I alluded to earlier, these numbers in my Amendment would increase the guarantee per pupil to a higher figure. That would be $15.69 per pupil which I think over Gene's Bill is about $5,000,000. I would ask therefore that the Membership support Amendment #3."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Hoffman."

"Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the Sponsor that if he looked at his Amendment, there is in terms of the numbers that you have, particularly the second number you're using, I don't think does what you want it to do. And I would suggest that you pull that out. We'll deal with it from there." 63  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Is there any further discussion?"

"Hold on, Mr. Speaker. I would like to check the numbers against what Representative Hoffman has indicated. Let's see, Gene. I have the Schneider Amendment deletes 5-5-2-7-1..."

"5-5-2-7-1 should be 5-5-7-4-2."

"And in third...what should it be?"

"5-5-7-4-2."

"Why don't we take it out, Mr. Speaker, and hold the Bill on...do you want to hold it on Second? Who's the Sponsor? This is your Bill. Are you going to hold it? Hold it on Second?"

"What is your pleasure, Representative Schneider?"

"The concern that we have is the numbers are incorrect. The concept is correct also, but...if the Membership would give us leave to amend it on its face..."

"Objection? Do you move the adoption of your Amendment, Mr. Schneider? What do you want to do with the Amendment?"

"I move the adoption of Amendment #3."

"The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 1353. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'nos' have it and the Amendment fails. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1362, Representative Ronan. Representative Hoffman, there has been a request for a fiscal note filed on your Bill. It will have to remain on the Order of Second Reading. House Bill 1353 will remain on Second Reading. Representative Mautino."

"Mr. Speaker, I was just notified by Enrolling and Engrossing that a problem in interpretation appeared on 581. when it was on Second Reading. I would like leave of the 64  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 House to table Amendment #2 which was my Amendment to House Bill 581. It was inadvertently applied to the Bill. It was the Amendment that addressed a portion of Amendment #1 which was defeated, and I would like leave to table Amendment #2 to House Bill 581 for corrections at the request of Enrolling and Engrossing."

"The Gentleman asks leave to table House Amendment #2 to House Bill 581. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Amendment #2 is tabled. Third Reading. House Bill 1362, Representative Ronan. Is the Gentleman in the chamber? Out of the record. House Bill 1421, Representative Henry. The Gentleman in the chamber? Representative Henry moves...asks leave to return House Bill 1421 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Read the Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Floor Amendment #1 amends House Bill 1421 on page one line nine and so forth. Zito."

"Representative Zito."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Amendment #1 clears up some language. It brings the Bill in the concurrence and the conformity with present existing offenses which this Body passed four years ago with respect to the Criminal Code. The Bill now states that a Class 4 felony is a one to ten year offense when in fact it is a one to three year offense. So I would move for the adoption of this Amendment."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Hoffman, do you seek recognition? Your light is on."

"'No'."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Henry."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the Gentleman from the 5th District in helping me to clean up this Bill 65  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 and put it in its proper form. I also support the Amendment."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #1 to House Bill 1421. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1398, Representative Oblinger. The Lady asks leave to return House Bill 1398 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Read the Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Amendment #1, McClain, amends House Bill 1398 on page 21, line 20 and so forth."

"Representative McClain on Amendment #1 to House Bill 1398."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 1398 sets up a procedure whereby municipalities may join in having their utility corporations between those municipalities. Part of that municipal corporation will be that they will have eminent domain, the right to raise rates without any kind of review, the right to do some awesome things that they...I think that they should not have. All this Amendment would do is provide that in terms of the rate making process, those municipal corporations that own their utility companies should go under the ICC, Interstate Commerce Commission, at least for a rate review and rate approval. I don't think it's right that we can build a mammoth monopoly for consumers and for landowners in a municipality without any kind of review from a professional body or some people that have some kind of concept on rate review. This Amendment does not go towards the problems in the Bill with 66  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 eminent domain. It does not go into the problems of the area of this Bill with consuming smaller cities and smaller villages around a municipality. This Amendment only goes to the issue of..that these municipally owned utility corporations should go under the Interstate Commerce Commission. And I would move for the adoption of Amendment #1."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Leinenweber."

"Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"I take it you mean the Illinois Commerce Commission, not the Interstate."

"Yes."

"All right. Are there any other instances where a public body is regulated and/or governed by the Illinois Commerce Commission other than what you propose to do here?"

"Not that I'm aware of, Harry."

"This is, therefore, establishes a precedent that a state agency will have review and in effect control over a local governmental agency that is elected by the taxpayers of that area. Is that correct?"

"Well, except you don't take it all the away. You're talking about a public utility company that would have a monopoly solely on utility rates and utility services for everybody not within the municipality. You're talking about municipalities joining together, so like, Springfield would join with Chatham. This Bill would allow that municipally owned, jointly owned corporation, to charge a higher rate for services in Chatham than in Springfield and there's no review, no appeal process and I think that's wrong. So it's not just...You're not talking about street 67  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 cleaning here. You're talking about a public utility dealing with utility corporations."

"But you're still establishing a ....Well, as I understand municipal law, that there is some limits, is there not, to what a municipal corporation may charge when it's acting in its proprietary instance? In other words, doesn't the fees have to have some relation to the costs incurred which would be reviewable by court?"

"When I read the Bill I see no appeal process on how much they can charge..."

"...I'm talking about normal municipal law. Is it not the case that under normal municipal law, when a municipality acts in its proprietary interests, that it must have its rates for whatever services it's providing be some reasonable relationship to the actual costs incurred? In other words, they can't use this as a disguised method of levying a general tax. Isn't that true?"

"I see no paragraph of purpose in the Bill..."

"I'm not talking about the Bill. I'm talking about in normal municipal law, which I think would govern such a Illinois Municipal Utilities Corporation, whatever you call it."

"Well, I represent a couple small municipalities and I know of no such law. Maybe you do."

"Well, I think ...Just briefly on the Amendment. I see what the Gentleman is trying to do. However, there's a vast difference between subjecting a private-for-profit corporation shareholders...owned by shareholders to a review by a public body when it has a monopoly power, it seems to me to be a vast difference which has been recognized in that it's never been tried before for utilities, municipal utilities, whether it be streetcars or power or whatever, to subject, what in effect, publicly 68  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 owned utilities to the same review power by a state agency. It seems to me that there are vast differences and we ought to be aware of them."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from DeWitt, Representative Vinson."

"Would the Gentleman yield for a question?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, is the thrust of your Amendment to require that rates set by municipal utilities shall be approved by the Commerce Commission?"

"That's correct."

"Is your thinking behind that that public bodies can make mistakes in the same fashion that private bodies can?"

"Well, that, but more importantly is to set some sort of protection for the utility user so that the rates that are being charged by that jointly owned municipal corporation does not take advantage of certain segments of the city or certain other municipalities and that the rates have some semblance with the use and the service provided the consumer."

"To the Amendment, Mr. Speaker. I would urge adoption of this Amendment for a couple of reasons. I think first of all, the Gentleman is right that rates that can be charged by a public entity can on occasion be as excessive as rates charged by a private entity. I think we see that in tax rates every day. I think that alone is reason for adoption of the Amendment. Beyond that, there's another problem that concerns me. The thrust of the Bill in general would enable ..would be to create a new revenue raising measure for municipal utilities. And I don't necessarily find that to be bad. But, one of the problems that can occur is that a utility can get into very serious problems if it expands too fast, if it expands in uneconomical fashion. The 69  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 people who bear the cost for that in the case of a public utility, in the case of a publically owned utility, are taxpayers on the one hand, as well as consumers on the other hand. That cost is totally borne by the public. We've seen examples, I believe, nationwide and perhaps in this state where some privately owned utilities have got into very serious problems because they've embarked on ambitious expansion programs at a time when demand is turning down. I don't believe we need to overly encourage municipal utilities to make that same mistake as some private utilities have made. I do think, in certain cases, the device endorsed in this Bill, permitted in this Bill, is useful and desirable and I would intend to vote for the Bill on Third Reading. But I do believe that a proper control would be to enact this Amendment with the Bill so that there's some overall review of whether expansion, whether costs and so forth, are, in fact, merited. I think that people in the public sector are still people; they're still tainted by original sin; they still can make mistakes. And there's no reason to put them above the law. And I believe that provisions and the processes of the Commerce Commission in that respect are fair for submission for everybody. Again, I would urge adoption of the Amendment and then subsequently, passage of the Bill."

"The Lady from Sangamon, Representative Oblinger."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the General Assembly, I have to oppose this Amendment for the same reasons as Representative Leinenweber. We've never had this kind of control by the Illinois Commerce Commission over municipally owned utilities. And if you will look at the rate structure you will find that the municipal owned utilities have rates far below those of private owned ones. So we think that they are responding to their constituents, 70  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. to their consumers and are not overcharging, are not trying to make a profit. The discussion on these charges are brought before whatever kind of city government you have, either an alderman or commissioners, given a thorough hearing and a thorough airing and I don't believe that they are apt to overcharge. So, I would have to oppose this Amendment."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman...Representative Hallstrom."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I do not want to take the time of the House to go over what Representative Leinenweber said and what Joe Oblinger said. But I strongly support their positions. We're talking about local governments elected by the people within that..their own area. And you can be sure, as we believe in local control, that they're going to make sure that their rates are not any higher, that their fair rates, because they have the vote on the people who are making those decisions. And I would urge you, please, not to vote for this Amendment."

"Any further discussion? The Gentleman from Adams, Representative McClain, to close."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, this piece of legislation does not exactly say what everybody says it says. This provides for municipalities to join together and form a municipal electric power corporation.. That means, not necessarily that the commission from Springfield, Illinois will be elected jointly with all the different municipalities. He or she has the power to ..to accelerate and to do all kinds of things under this municipal power Act. They condemn land without the restrictions that we provide for a lot of local governments. They'll have the same kind of eminent 71  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 domain powers as we give other utility companies.. For Common Wealth Edison, for Central Illinois Public Service Company, for Illinois Power Company, we provide all those companies in the State of Illinois...They have to be within the Illinois Commerce Commission.. For electrical co-ops, they are in under the Co-op Act. Even these electrical co-ops have to abide by the Illinois Commerce Commission's rules and regulations. What we are doing with this piece of legislation, is we are saying, 'Look at corporations. You are so pure. You are so good. You don't have to abide by anybody.' Just total local government deals with rules and regulations, eminent domain, rate review, rate construction of all sorts....'You are so good we will not challenge you at all'. If that is true, then we ought to do the same thing with shareholders when you talk about publically owned stock for shareholders. It's the same kind of review process, the same kind of concept. This is not deregulation. This is a license to do whatever you want to do for that jointly municipal corporation. I think that's wrong. They ought to be with..under some sort of review, some sort of regulation just to protect the consumer and indeed, to protect small municipalities that have to join, for instance Springfield, have to join Springfield for power. They have no choice. To protect the Chathams and the Rochester's of the world you ought to support this piece of legislation. And I'd ask for the adoption of Amendment #1."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #1 to House Bill 1398. All in favor will signify by voting 'aye'; all opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 81 voting 'aye', 49 voting 'no', and 3 voting 'present'. And 72  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 the Gentleman's Motion prevails and Amendment #1 is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Oblinger, amends House Bill 1398..."

"Representative Oblinger on Amendment #2. Amendment #2, Representative Oblinger."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, Amendment #2 does three things. It corrects some spelling mistakes and there were a number of people who asked the question of, 'Well, once you're in this consortium, how do you get out?' The way it was originally written, two-thirds of the Members of the consortium would have to vote to allow you out. We've changed that now to a simple Majority, which is much more equitable. The third part of the Amendment exempts municipal power agencies from additional state oversight. It permits a municipal power agency to exercise the powers given it under this Act without obtaining prior approval of any other state agency, including the Illinois Commerce Commission. I urge your adoption of Amendment #2."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Adams, Representative McClain."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Lady yield?"

"Indicates she will."

"Ms. Oblinger, would that...with Amendment #2, would that now wipe out Amendment #1 and remove the Illinois Commerce Commission?"

"My final sentence said, including removing it from under the jurisdiction of the Illinois Commerce Commission."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, may I speak to the Amendment?"

"Absolutely." 73  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Thank you. Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, by a sum vote of about 81 to 42, you just now adopted an Amendment that provided that this jointly held municipal electric power corporation would be under the Illinois Commerce Commission for rate review and regulations. By this Amendment, by Ms. Oblinger's, that would delete that provision. So what in essence she is doing is wiping out Amendment #1 instead of by vote, by Amendment. So I'd ask you to please look at this Amendment. This Amendment would wipe out the Amendment you just now adopted by a vote of 81 to 42. I strongly ask you to reverse your Roll Call and instead of voting 'aye' last Amendment, vote 'no' on this Amendment so that there is some sort of rate review and some sort of regulation, just like we do with privately held corporations and with electrical co-ops. There's no difference, I don't believe, with rate review and consideration of the consumer and especially in the case of small municipalities. Electrical co-ops, privately held corporations, are under the Commission for Rules and Regulations. Electrical co-ops are under their own Act and public utilities under the Public Utilities Act. It's only fair and I would ask you to vote 'no' on this Amendment."

"The Lady from Sangamon, Representative Oblinger, to close."

"I urge you to vote 'yes' on this Amendment. It has something else in it that's very important to you and that is the ability for one of the public utilities to either come in or out of consortium. If you do not vote for this Amendment, it will take a two-thirds vote of those members of the consortium in order for a public utility to opt out of the consortium. So I urge you to vote 'yes' on Amendment #2." 74  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"The Lady moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 1398. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. The Lady moves for the adoption of Amendment #2. All in favor will signify by voting 'aye'; all opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 48 voting 'aye', 84 voting 'no', 1 voting 'present'. And the Lady's Motion fails. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. Representative Davis."

"Before you announce Third Reading, I was going to ask if the Lady would leave this Bill on Second Reading for just one more day? There is an Amendment in draft that would address the issue of hydro-electric dams in several communities around the state, including the Speaker's home town of Kankakee. And since the Bill is now out of the Order of Priority of Call, having been amended, back to Third and goes to the end anyway, I was going to ask if she'd leave it just one more day so the Amendment can be brought forward."

"What's your pleasure, Representative Oblinger? The Lady is gracious enough to agree to leave House Bill 1398 on the Order of Second Reading where it will remain. On the Calendar appears House Bill 1449. The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 1449 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Read the Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Amendment #1, Schneider, amends House Bill 1449..."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members. This is a change from shall to may. It is a request of the Chicago School Finance Authority. We had originally in the proposal given 75  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 the Authority, rather the School Board the authority to allow the general superintendent and the finance officer to hire personnel as they saw fit. As you know, the Finance Authority requires the Chicago Board to maintain a balanced budget. As a consequence they are a little concerned that giving them shall permission as opposed to may permission might imperil that budget in some obscure way or...and I would move that the Members adopt Amendment #1."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #1. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it. The Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1362, Representative Ronan. The Gentleman asks leave to return House Bill 1362 to the Order of Second Reading. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Read the Amendments, Mr. Clerk."

"Floor Amendment #2, Ropp, amends House Bill 138..."

"No, 1362."

"Floor Amendment #1, Levin-Ronan, amends House Bill 1362..."

"Representative Levin on Amendment #1."

"Okay, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, Amendment #1 bears the strange Sponsorship of myself and Al Ronan. What the Amendment does is deals with the question of blind vendors and was worked out with the Department of Administrative Services vendors, and restricts the language in the original Bill to make it something which, you know, the Department can support. What the Amendment does is adopts the principle that vendor...blind vendors be given a priority where there are in fact facilities available in either a new building, state building, or in a building 76  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 being leased where there are facilities that are appropriate for blind vendors. It is similar to laws in 21 other states. In the original Bill there was a third provision dealing with revenues collected by vending machines. That has been eliminated in Amendment #1. I think it is a good Amendment. This...it is supported by the Department of Administrative Services. They think it is reasonable, and it has got...what is effectively the bipartisan sponsorship of myself and Representative Ronan, and I would strongly urge adoption..."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #1 to House Bill 1362. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it, and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. Representative Collins in the Chair."

"House Bill 1506, Representative Ewing. The Gentleman asks leave to return the Bill to the Order of Second Reading for the purpose of an amendment. Does he...is there objection? Hearing none, the Bill will be returned to Second Reading. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk, and the Amendment."

"House Bill 1506 has been read a second time previously. Amendment #1, Ewing, amends House Bill 1506 on page two, line..."

"The Gentleman from Livingston, Representative Ewing."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, as House Bill 1506 was approved by the House Revenue Committee it provides for the reduction in the corporate rate for the personal property replacement tax from 2.5 to 2%... My Amendment #1 would modify this decrease in rate and would 77  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 provide that the rate would increase...would decrease from 2.5 to 2.25 on January 1, 1983 and then got to 2 point. I'm sorry, on January 1, 1982 the rate would go from the current 2.5 to 2.25 then on January 1, 1983 the rate would go to 2 point. This would mean that the rate would be reduced in steps instead of in one reduction. And I think it makes the Bill a better Bill, and I would move for the adoption of this Amendment."

"The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #1. Is there discussion? The Gentleman from Madison, Representative McPike. Representative McPike."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Sponsor of the Amendment yield?"

"The Gentleman indicates he will."

"Tom, there is a lot of noise. Would you give me those rates again?"

"Yes, we're going to reduce...this Bill would, as amended, would end up reducing the rate from 2.5 to 1 point."

"It would reduce it to 2.5 to 1.0?"

"You heard me, didn't you? Yeah. No, what it would do, right now as the Bill stands, it would reduce it from 2.5 to 2 point effective in January of next year. The Amendment would reduce it from 2.5 to 2.25, a quarter of a percent instead of a half of a percent next January, the next quarter of a percent the January thereafter. So it modifies the reduction."

"So it leaves it at 2.5% for this Calendar year and then 2.25 for Calendar '83?"

"'82."

"I mean Calendar '82 then 2.0 from Calendar '83."

"That is correct."

"Does it reduce it further after that?"

"Well, we could if you would like to offer that Amendment." 78  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 No, I didn't."

"Is there a...do you have estimates as to what this is going to cost the local units of government? This Amendment?"

"This Amendment would actually save units of local government money compared to the way the Bill presently exists."

"Compared to the way the Bill presently exists. Okay. You're right. I think we should address that on Third Reading. Is there any cost to the state on this Amendment?"

"No."

"The state gets no money from the corporate replacement tax at all?"

"That is correct. This is not, nor is it a state mandate."

"Are you sure that the state receives no monies from the corporate replacement tax?"

"Not to my knowledge, Representative. Maybe you have some knowledge on that."

"The Department of Revenue doesn't receive any for collecting the tax? A certain percent?"

"Well, they might, but if they don't have to collect the tax, their costs should go down. I am sure when we get our new revenue building it will be much more efficient, and the cost will go down."

"Well, I think there is a cost to the state, and Mr. Speaker, has a fiscal note been filed on this?"

"Not to my knowledge. Is there a fiscal note?"

"None that has been required."

"A request for a fiscal note has just been filed, Representative Ewing."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker." 79  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Is there further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Jack Dunn."

"Would the Sponsor yield to another question?"

"He indicates he will."

"What will the cost be in local government...to the local government if this Bill is passed?"

"Well, Representative, we're talking about the Amendment now, not the Bill. And I would rather keep the discussion on the Amendment which actually causes the rate to go down slower than the Bill currently does. So if you're concerned about the lose of local government revenues, this would be an Amendment which you would want to support because it means that if the Bill is finally approved, the rate of taxation will go down slower than is currently provided for in the Bill unamended."

"Thank you."

"Further discussion? The Lady from Marshall, Representative Koehler."

"Would the Sponsor yield for another question please?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, perhaps I missed this in the confusion, but I was wondering if you would tell...explain to me again how the law currently reads and how this would change it?"

"The Bill currently says that the tax rate on corporations for the replacement tax will go down from 2.5 to 2 point. in January 1, 1982. That is a half of a percent decrease in the rate. My Amendment would cut that decrease in rate to a quarter of a percent in January of '82 and take the other quarter of a percent off in January of '83. It is just a phase in instead of one half of a percent decrease in one year, it is a quarter percent decrease in the first year, and a quarter percent decrease the second year ending up in the same spot but over a two year period." 80  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"It is a slower, slower tax relief then."

"Right."

"Thank you."

"Is there further discussion? Representative Ewing, a request for a fiscal note has been filed... You may close on the...the debate on the Amendment."

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I think that the...I hope the discussion is clear on this Amendment. This is a simple Bill. It is a controversial Bill, but I believe that this Amendment makes the Bill a fairer Bill. It provides for a two year phase in of a reduction in tax, a nd it should help protect local government. It should help protect the businesses who are paying this tax so that they won't be overpaid. And I would ask for the adoption of this Amendment."

"The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #1 to House Bill 1506. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', and opposed 'nay'. In the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes' have it, and Amendment #1 is adopted. This Bill will stay...remain on Second Reading. House Bill 1682, Representative Ropp. Is the Gentleman in the Chamber? Out of the record. Representative....House Bill 1746, Representative Jaffe. The Gentleman asks leave to return this Bill to the order of Second Reading for the purpose of an Amendment. Is there objection? Hearing none, the Bill shall be returned to Second Reading. Read the Amendment, Mr. Clerk."

"Amendment #1, Jaffe, amends House Bill 1746 on page one line 28 and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Jaffe."

"Mr. Speaker, Amendment #1 is merely a technical Amendment. It just changes the paragraphs which were misnumbered. It changes C to B and D to C, and that is all 81  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 that it does. And I would move its adoption."

"The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #1. Is there discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman. Your light is flashing. Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #1. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it, and Amendment #1 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1797, Representative Findley. The Gentleman asks leave to return the Bill to the Order of Second Reading. Is there objection? Hearing none, the Bill shall be returned to Second Reading. Read the Amendment, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1797 has been read a second time previously. Amendment #1, Findley, amends House Bill 1797 on page two and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Cass, Representative Findley."

"Mr. Speaker, I withdraw Amendments #1 and #2 if I may."

"The Gentleman asks leave to withdraw Amendments #1 and Amendment #2. Is there objection? The Amendments shall be withdrawn. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Findley, amends House Bill 1797..."

"Representative...the Gentleman from Cass, Representative Findley."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, Amendment #3 to House Bill 1797 is a technical Amendment. It repositions clarifying language. It eliminates one redundancy and corrects a spelling error. I would ask that the Amendment be adopted."

"The Gentleman has moved the adoption of 82  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Amendment #3 to House Bill 1797. Is there any discussion? All those in favor of the Amendment #3 will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it, and the Amendment is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1821, Representative Barkhausen. The Gentleman asks leave to return the Bill to Second Reading for the purpose of an Amendment. Are there objections? Hearing none, the Bill shall be brought back to Second Reading. Read the Amendment, Mr. Clerk."

"Amendment #1 was withdrawn. Floor Amendment #2, Barkhausen, amends House Bill 1821 on page one and so forth."

"The Gentleman...Representative Barkhausen on Amendment #2."

"Amendment #2 to House Bill 1821 is a clarifying and a narrowing Amendment. This is one of three Bills that will promote and encourage ride sharing, car pooling, and van pooling in Illinois. And as House Bill 1821 was originally drafted, it prohibits local governments from regulating vehicles used in car pooling and ride sharing programs to a greater extent than they regulate other passenger cars. The Bill originally said that local governments couldn't regulate what is referred to in the Motor Vehicle Code as a ride sharing arrangement to a greater extent than they do passenger cars, and I took out the language ride sharing arrangement, and substituted it instead, a commuter-van which is also defined in the Motor Vehicle Code as a vehicle which has a capacity to carry between 10 and 16 passengers. They can regulate a commuter van or a passenger car used in a ride sharing arrangement to a greater extent than they do regulate other passenger cars in a local governmental area. So it narrows the area 83  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 that local governments are prohibited from regulating and to that extent is less objectionable than what I thought was a completely unobjectionable provision in the first place. For that reason, I ask the adoption of Amendment #2."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 1821. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it, and the Amendment is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. The Gentleman from Franklin, Representative Rea. House Bill 1668, the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman, asks leave to return the Bill to the Order of Second Reading for the purpose of an Amendment. Are there objections? Hearing none, the Bill shall be returned to Second Reading. Read the Amendment, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1668 has been read a second time previously. Floor Amendment #3, Koehler, amends House Bill 1668 as amended."

"The Lady from Marshall, Representative Koehler."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. Amendment #3 provides that when precincts are clustered for an emergency referendum under a court order, that only one judge from each of the clustered precincts be required to work at the polling place. That would provide for a total of four election judges at such clustered voting zones. The election authority is given the power to employ extra judges if conditions warrant them. The judges are chosen by lot. Ladies and Gentlemen, I would urge your favorable consideration of Amendment #3." 84.  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"The Lady moves the adoption of Amendment #3. Is there any discussion? All those in favor of Amendment #3 will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1534, Representative Watson, do you want to return this to Second Reading? The Gentleman asks leave that this Bill be returned to the Order of Second Reading for the purpose of an Amendment. Are there objections? Hearing none, the Bill shall be ordered returned to Second Reading. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman."

"The Amendment has to be read."

"Read the Amendment, Mr. Clerk."

"Floor Amendment #2, Bowman, amends House Bill 1534 by deleting the title and inserting in lieu thereof the following."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Amendment #2 provides for a joint House - Senate Committee to investigate the, all of the statutes that depend upon the use of census data for there implementation. Of course, this particular Amendment excludes reapportionment. That is handled separately and this Amendment, I want to stress, has absolutely nothing to do with reapportionment. However, it may come as a surprise to many of you in the chamber that there are several dozen different statutes that require the use of population as a basis for establishing formulas of various sorts. Our county and municipal officials are paid according to how large the county is. The tax rates are 85  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 determined according to how large the county or municipality is. Formulas for allocating various funds are determined according to how large various units of government are. Cost sharing formulas for agricultural extension services and state's attorney appellate defenders and so forth are all determined by population. The Bill to which I'm offering this Amendment is a response to a problem that will occur in Representative Watson's area, unless the Legislature intervenes, simply because the population has changed it will require certain things change in his area which he'd rather not see changed. I'm recommending, through this Amendment, that we sit down, the House and Senate together, sit down and take a look at all of the statutes, and there are dozens of them, and to recommend changes to the House and Senate for purposes of developing a consistent policy towards the pay schedules, fee schedules, formula allocations and so forth and then to make recommendations back to the two Body's. The one thing which I'll point out that the Bill also, or the Amendment also does, it freezes the present population figures until the end of the Calendar year to give us time to act upon these recommendations in the Fall Session. It does not do anything more than this. There are only legislative Members appointed to this so it's a Committee. It's not a commission. There is no need for an appropriation for this. It can come out of House Operations. I tabled the companion appropriation Bill. I think this is meritorious legislation that deserves our support. It we don't pass this Amendemt we're going to be nickeled and dimed to death everytime there is a problem discovered and believe me, there will be dozens and dozens of problems discovered."

"The Gentleman offers Amendment #2. Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Will, Representative 86  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Leinenweber."

"Will the Gentleman yield for a question?"

"Indicates he will."

"As I understand it, the Amendment is either identical or virtually identical with House Bill 784. Is that correct?"

"That is correct. It is identical."

"Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, again at the Amendment stage we are seeking to bypass the Committee system of this House. House Bill 784, the Gentleman's Bill was heard in the Executive Committee and for reasons that the Committee Members, the majority or at least many of the Committee Members considered proper, did not vote to pass this Bill onto the House. The Gentleman then reverted to his right as a Member of this Body and filed a discharge Motion before the Body of this House which was heard last week. For reasons that the Members of this Body apparently considered good, they declined to support the Gentleman's Motion to discharge Committee. Therefore, the Gentleman is apparently reverting to what has become a time honored procedure of amending a Bill that was defeated in Committee and this Body refused to discharge onto another Bill that apparently at least is vaguely germane, to which it is vaguely germane. I think this is a bad process. The Committee system of this House, and the reason I'm speaking because I don't see either the Vice Chairman. I do see the Chairman of the Executive Committee on the floor. I think that if we're going to have a Committee process we ought to allow it to function and in those rare instances where the majority feels that the Committee makes a mistake, then if there are 89 of us that want to hear the Bill then the... we will do so. However, there aren't 89 apparently, so we're going to be wasting our time. The Gentleman is 87  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 seeking to bypass Committee by using less than 89 because usually less than that vote on a Motion. It doesn't require 89 votes. I think that's bad practice, something we ought to avoid in these weening hours of hearing House Bills. So I would urge the Members to join with the Members of the Executive Committee and join with yourselves in not considering this for a third time."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Getty."

"Mr. Speaker, will the Gentlemen yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Representative Bowman, I just want to clear up your legislative intent here. It's my understanding from looking at this and I'd like you to confirm it, that it would not be the Committee's function to decide whether classifications are to be made but to just consider given existing law how the federal decennial census affects classification. Is that correct?"

"Representative Getty, that is my intention. I feel obliged, however, to point out that if the Committee which is a group of individuals that can probably do whatever they want to do should decide to attack that question, the simple solution for them would be simply to treat all classes equally in any recommendation they make to either chamber. However, my intention is based simply on existing statutes."

"You are not here asking that they, or directing by this, that they do consider any such action or directing that they come up with any formula to take any such action. Is that correct?"

"That is correct. I'm neither asking nor directing the Committee to undertake any inquiry of that sort."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Pullen."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the 88  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 House. The matter that is being addressed in this Amendment was the subject of a Bill that was referred to the Executive Committee. It was posted on the last day for hearings. A day which found me out of town on legislative business and I, unfortunately, was not able to be at the hearing that day to help the Representative with his Bill. It was not, as I understand it, actually heard that day and, therefore; not rejected or excepted by the Committee. I support the Bill the Gentleman had brought to the Committee and because this matter cannot be addressed at a later time but must be acted upon now, I support this very important, necessary and worthwhile Amendment."

"The Gentleman from Effingham, Representative

Brummer. Brummer: "I move the previous question."

"Gentleman moves the previous question. The question is, 'Shall the main question be put?'. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman, to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker., I would just, in closing, like to remind the Members of this Body that this is a truely historic occasion. Representative Pullen and I agree on a piece of legislation and I would like this moment memorialized for all time by an affirmative vote. Thank you very much."

"Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #2. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. Has Representative Ropp returned to the chamber? House Bill 1682, Representative 89  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Ropp. The Gentleman asks leave that the Bill: be returned to Second Reading for purpose of Amendment. Are there objections? Hearing none, the Bill shall be ordered returned to the Order of Second Reading. Read the Amendment, Mr. Clerk."

"Amendment #2, Ropp, amends House Bill 1682 as amended on line one and five and so forth."

"The Gentleman from McLean, Representative Ropp."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. I think I would ask leave of the House to table #1 because that is incorrectly written in terms of what the people tell me my intent is and Amendment #2... Can we have leave to table #1, please?"

"The Gentleman moves to table Amendment #1. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is tabled. Are there further Amendments?"

"Now, Mr. Speaker..."

"Amendment #2, Ropp."

"Amendment #2, Representative Ropp."

"Amendment #2 gives clarity to the Bill in that what I'm attempting to do is make provisions possible for someone who has deceased be able to received a birth certificate so that his relatives can verify that that particular person was born and the Amendment #2 does clarify it and make my intent now possible. I ask your favorable support."

"Gentleman offers Amendment #2. Is there any discussion? All those in favor will ... The Gentleman from Winnebago, Representative Mulcahey."

"Question for the Sponsor."

"Indicates he'll yield."

"Representative Ropp, you say that the deceased has to 90  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 be proved to have been born at one time?"

"Currently, someone who is seeking a birth certificate must first ask for it in writing. If you have died, that is impossible to do. This Amendment one, permits a close relative to provide that information and make it possible for the person who has passed away for his relatives or offspring to receive a birth certificate stating that he was in fact born on such and such a date and that the word 'deceased' will be written across the birth certificate."

"That indeed at one time he did live."

"That is absolutely correct."

"Thank you."

"Further discussion? Question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?'. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #2 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 186, Representative O'Brien. The Gentleman asks leave that the Bill be returned to Second Reading for the purpose of an Amendment. Are there objections? Hearing none, the Bill shall be returned to the Order of Second Reading. Read the Bill... Read the Amendment, Mr. Clerk."

"Amendment #2, O'Brien, amends House Bill..."

"Gentleman from Cook, Representative O'Brien."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker and Members, originally House Bill 186 was Sponsored by George McCourt and we agreed to this Amendment in the Subcommittee on Transportation that Representative Friedrich Chaired. This Amendment just abolished the Chicago Urban Transportation District and turns over all its funds and its assets to the Chicago Transportation Authority and I'd ask for an acceptance of 91  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 the Amendment."

"The Gentleman offers Amendment #2. Are there... Is there any discussion? Question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?'. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #2 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. Previously, House Bill 1353 was read a second time. A request for a fiscal note was filed and has subsequently been withdrawn so House Bill 1353 will be advanced to the Order of Third Reading. On the Order of Second Reading page three on the Calendar. The Gentleman from McLean, Representative Ropp, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Mr. Speaker, I, on reviewing the Amendment on 1682, there was one word that was incorrectly spelled or the meaning. It says 'decedent... decedent' and that means someone who has already passed away would have to swear by a person who has already passed away and I want to ... on its fact if at all possible, change that to 'decedent'. I ask leave of the House to do that."

"It's already out of our control and upstairs, Representative Ropp, so we'll have to address ourselves to that problem later. There's nothing we can do at this time."

"Not even with leave of the House. I though we could do anything with leave of the House."

"I suggest you'll have to get the Bill back down from upstairs and we'll return to it later. Right now there's nothing we can do with it. On the Order of Second Reading... Committee Reports."

"Representative Wolf, Chairman of the Committee on 92  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Appropriations to which the following Bills were referred, action taken May 11, 1981 and reported the same back with the following recommendations: 'do pass as amended' House Bill 1128 and 1891. 'Interim Study' House Bill 1618. Representative Wolf, Chairman of the Committee on Appropriations to which the following Bills were referred, action taken May 11, 1981 and reported the same back with the following recommendations: 'do pass' House Bill 1466. 'Do not pass' House Bill 1698. 'Do pass as amended' House Bills 420, 897, 1159, and 1604."

"On the Order of Second Reading, page seven, House Bill 1626. The Gentleman from Hardin, Representative Winchester. Are there any Amendments to the Bill?"

"House Bill 1626..."

"Are there any Committee Amendments?"

"...a Bill for an Act in relation to non-coal mine lands. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"None."

"Third Reading. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Madigan."

"Mr. Speaker, could you tell us where you are on the Calendar? What your plans..."

"I announced that. We're on page seven on the Order of Second Reading."

"That's immediately. My question would relate to the next Bill and what you long term plan is."

"We're going to go down the Order of Second Reading in numerical order. We're picking up where we left off the last time we were on this Order."

"Okay. Thank you."

"Gentleman from Cook, Representative Pierce, for 93  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. what purpose do you rise?"

"From Lake. Mr. Speaker..."

"From Lake, yes."

"Last Friday on Second Reading we adjourned when we were on House Bill 1624 when a quorum call was raised and I waited till the close of business Friday for that to be called and I think that should be the first order of business today. We never finished it. I never had my chance to have my Bill moved to Third Reading."

"Representative Pierce, the Bill was called. There was extensive discussion on the Amendments and the Bill was taken out of the record by you as the Sponsor."

"There was only one... It was taken out because of a quorum call and the Speaker was going to adjourn the House. The people weren't going to get their pay if there was a quorum call. So that's why it was taken out. Now we're on that Bill. There were Amendments that weren't called on that Bill and you sit around all week waiting for a Bill to be called on Second and then you don't get a chance to move it to Third. That's discriminatory."

"Representative Pierce, there was a quorum call. A quorum was established. You did have your Bill called. There are a number of others waiting for their Bills to be called and we will get back to you. The Gentleman from Peoria, Representative Schraeder."

"Mr. Speaker, I'd like to echo Representative Pierce's question. He did have the Bill on the House floor debate but it was taken out of the record and it was no fault of his, and I think it's only fair to a Member that was in the middle of debate you go back and pick up his Bill before you proceed with other Bills."

"House Bill 1630, Representative Kosinski."

"House Bill 1630..." 94  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Representative Madigan."

"Mr. Speaker, if you're announced plan is to return where we were when we left the Order of Second Reading on Friday, then I think you are under an obligation to the Body to answer Mr. Pierce's point. Mr. Pierce's point is that under your criteria, we should have gone to House Bill 1624 and I would suggest and I would ask now that the Clerk immediately make available a copy of the transcript for Friday when that Bill was called up until the time of the quorum call and sufficiently beyond the quorum call to establish under our rules where we should be at at this time."

"Mr. Madigan, let me make it very clear. We have already explained to Representative Pierce why we were going to the next Bill. He, at his request it was taken out of the record. However, to save time and to prevent you from giving more speeches, I think we'll honor your request and start with House Bill 1624. Is that alright?"

"Thank you."

"House Bill 1624, Representative Pierce. Are there Committee Amendments?"

"House Bill 1624, a Bill for an Act in relation to certain exemptions to various use and occupation taxes. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Mautino, amends House Bill 1624 on page one, line two and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Bureau, Representative Mautino." 95  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This was the Amendment which closed the House down last Friday. Amendment #2 to House Bill 1624 is House Bill 635 as presented to the Revenue Committee. This Amendment eliminates the so called Retailer's Occupational Tax Extension which is the advanced payments of sales tax to the State of Illinois by retailers who pay to the State more than 10,000 dollars a month. This legislation was originally passed in '76 and I did some research after we left here Friday. I'd like to point out that every sitting Member on the Republican side of the aisle who was here in 1976 voted 'no' to impose the sales tax speed-up during that Session. They were joined by five Democrats. I happen to be one of those Democrats that opposed the concept that was presented at that time which is law today by the Walker administration. This is an additional burden. Number one, to the retailers of the State of Illinois and number two, the state is using somebody else's money by virtue of the Credit Memorandum which is issued but not put into full force for approximately 90 days after the retailer receives that Credit Memorandum. There was a good commentary on give and take on this legislation. I agree in total with the comments made by my colleague on the other side of the aisle last Friday, Representative John Birkinbine, pointing out that this is unfair legislation to the retailers of the State of Illinois. They pay not only a bond up front. They pay a monthly sales tax and they pay a weekly based on last year's estimate of the same period of time. This is legislation that I think should be adopted. I know is correct and I would hope that we would have consistency in the House of Representatives and adopt Amendment #2 to 1624 which is needed by all of the retailers of the State of Illinois who 96  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 pay 10,000 or more per month to the General Assembly. There's no loss to our existing funds because they are not state funds. The people who would be paying the tax would be paying it at the end of the month like every other retailer in the State and I'd be happy to answer any questions on this legislation."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Telcser."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, I rise to oppose Amendment #2 and for these reasons. The Gentleman who Sponsors Amendment #2 is absolutely correct. I was one of those Members in the Assembly at the time we adopted Governor Walker's accellerated tax program. We opposed it at that time basically for the reasons the Gentleman stated which were very valid, but they were valid at that time and they are no longer valid simply because we are depending upon that 80 million dollars within the framework of the budget for the fiscal year. Were we to adopt Amendment #2 to House Bill 1624 and it then went on to become law, the affect would be to cost us for this fiscal year that 80 million dollars. While it is true it's a bookkeeping entry, so to speak, and it's kind of fan for money, the fact of the matter is simply that we would have been a shortfall of 80 million dollars for this fiscal year. So, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, while in principle I agree with the Sponsor of the Bill, I want to point out that in my opinion his reasons were valid prior to the adoption of the accellerated tax program and since we have adopted it; it no longer has the same validity as it had then. And, these are the reasons I rise to oppose Amendment #2."

"The Gentleman from Lake, Representative Pierce." 97  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Mr. Speaker, as Chief Sponsor of this Bill, I have no objection to the Gentleman's Amendment #2. I think it helps clear up an inequity and injustice that's been done to retailers in our state who have to pay this money in advance. It's wrong. It was tried. It doesn't work and, therefore; I have no objection, in fact; support of the Gentleman from Bureau Amendment #2."

"The Lady from Marshall, Representative Koehler."

"Would the Sponsor yield for a question please?"

"Indicates he'll yield."

"Representative, I would like to know how this Amendment would affect the small retailer and the small businessman."

"Small retailer and small businessman who pay less than 10,000 a month in sales tax pay at the end of the month. The person who... It will not affect them because they pay as they do now, at the end of the month. Example: In your area, Denler's supermarket has money in this fund at the Department of Revenue in the amount of 26,000 dollars that they cannot get a claim to so that they can take credit for it. The state has their money yet in fact they can't get credit for it. The case must go to a hearing now. It's Denler's money but the state has it because they pay, the supermarket paid the sales tax estimated on last year's sales during that same period when, of course, inflation was higher, product costs were higher and now sales are less. They don't pay on the sales, they pay on the estimate from last year, and the amount continues to get higher that the state has that belongs to the retailer. It will not affect the smaller people who do not have 10,000 a month in liability to sales tax."

"Is this taking cash flow money out of the hands of the small retailer then?" 98  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"It doesn't touch the small retailer. It affects the cash flow at the state level because the state is getting money that is basically not owed to them."

"Thank you."

"The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Daniels."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, this Amendment if a taxpayers average monthly tax liability is 10,000 or above, he's currently required to issue quarter monthly tax payments. Now, as many of you recall under the Walker administration, a Bill establishing the quarter monthly payments was passed as a way of improving the then disasterous cash flow position that the administration at that time found itself in. By eliminating this feature, no less revenue would be received but there would be a four week cash flow lag when payments return to a monthly basis. Now the Sponsor of this Amendment is indeed truly a respected Member of this House and it's good that he brings this kind of an Amendment to our attention, but, unfortunately, it comes at a wrong time. It comes at a time where are Comptroller, Mr. Burris, has told us that our checkbook balance is dangerously low, that our cash flow position in the State of Illinois is dangerously poor and now we have an Amendment that would make that position even worse than what we find ourselves in today. It's estimated that with four week cash flow lag we will suffer a loss in this fiscal year somewhere in the nature of 80 million dollars I think is what's been represented to me. Now, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, after this Amendment we've got another Amendment and that Amendment is a direct loss of some 65 to 70 million dollars in revenues for the State of Illinois. So if we make the mistake and it would be a mistake of adopting this 99  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Amendment to this Bill, we will, once again, put our cash flow position in the State of Illinois in a very, very dangerous position and ultimately affect the solvency and the rating of this state. I urge you to carefully consider before you adopt this Amendment and I urge you to vote against it."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Birkinbine."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I hope that everyone here is paying attention to this Amendment because it affects each and every district in the state whether you're talking about a supermarket, department stores, even some large pharmacies. There are many stores in each and every district that do volumes such that they have to send their sales tax money on a weekly instead of a monthly basis the way smaller retailers have to. We've had some fascinating testimony here against this Amendment. Basically, what the people have said is that we realize the money doesn't belong to the state. We realize that we're actually, the state is actually getting to use this money for the period of 30, 60, 90 days before we're forced to turn it back to the retailer, the people who actually own it, but we've planned on doing that anyway so it would make it something of a bind if we're forced to live honestly, if you will. I think this goes back to a basic problem we have in this country where we or too many people in government are looking at money out there and saying, 'We can't afford it'. Well, Ladies and Gentlemen, it's not our money to play with. It's the people's money and this is a blatant case of governmental dishonesty where they know ahead of time that they're going to have to rebate money back to the retailers, especially in the instance of the supermarkets where you're talking about the 100  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 reduction in sales tax on food that we passed. Already you're going from four percent down to three percent. That's a 25% margin on sales tax revenues in supermarkets that the state is having to play with. I think it's basically dishonest, it's wrong and if someone is going to do this, I suggest you let it be the Governor and not put your vote on it. It would be a bad vote. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Peoria, Representative Schraeder."

"Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, the last speaker certainly hit the nail on the head. In fact, all the speaker's have hit the nail on the head. They admit, including the Majority Leader on the other side of the aisle, that this money belongs to the retailers and not to the State of Illinois. Now because we are getting it every day on a weekly basis as the case may be, that's our money. Well, that's a falicy. Now we passed this under the Governor Walker's administration and I opposed that concept at that time, and it's just as wrong today under Governor Thompson. It wasn't the state's money then and isn't the state's money today. When you're talking about ten dollars or ten million or a hundred million dollars, it makes no difference. It's dishonesty in the government. And the Governor Thompson to propose this and to be upheld by the leadership on the other side of the aisle and by Members of the Republican Party when they're talking about the retail merchants of the State of Illinois who historically have supported the Republican Legislators. Now this doesn't make good sense. You're talking about you're bread winners, Ladies and Gentlemen on the other side of the aisle. You're slapping them in the face with an unfair, unlawful tax. If I was one of those retail merchants I would say to you, 'I'm going to court and get my money', 101  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 because this is not a tax that's due to the state. And I don't think you have any choice whether the government needs it or not. It's wrong and this Amendment should be attached so those people get their just money back."

"The Gentleman from Livingston, Representative Ewing."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I am somewhat surprised at the last two speaker's and their terms that they used in describing what this Amendment is or what it's attempting to cure. Dishonest, somebody else's money. I wish that everybody would listen just a moment. The tax which is being collected here is paid at the end of the week in which it is collected. Now if the tax which is collected in a week and paid at the end of the week is the retailers money, I'll eat my hat. Now it is determined on an estimate. So, there could possibly be times when they would overpay for the week or underpay. But it is made up at the end of the month, and I also wonder about those who would oppose this Bill or this Amendment who consider themselves to be conservatives and how are they going to pay the bills of this state in the last month of this year when things are so tight if we have 60 million dollars less. This Bill might not be a bad idea in the right year, but we are not collecting retailers money nor are we keeping retailers money. We are only asking them to pay on an estimated basis the money which they have or should have already collected. And also it is not your little ma and pa stores. Vote for this. Vote for Standard Oil. Vote for Texaco. Vote for all the biggies or vote for your state and keep it solvent this year and take care of getting rid of this hangover from the Walker administration in a later year when the financial condition of this state will warrant it. And I would certainly 102  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 encourage a 'no' vote."

"The Gentleman from DeWitt, Representative Vinson."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. When the Governor announced his last set cuts, 200,000,000 dollars in mental health and public aid, one of the things that few people noticed was that he was still predicating his entire budget on the assumption the General Assembly is going to roll back the sales tax reductions on agricultural equipment and machinery and on manufacturing equipment and machinery. The... It will be necessary for us to find a way to cut a good 250,000,000 more after his last set of cuts if we don't roll those exemptions back. There is no legislation currently alive in the General Assembly to roll those rates back, and I would suggest to most Members of the General Assembly on both sides of the aisle that you have no desire to roll those rates back. That's going to mean that we're going to have to cut substantially more into the budget. We're going to have to roll back existing rates on public aid grants, existing rates on Medicaid, existing rates on child care and every other item in the budget if we're going to make up 250,000,000 dollars more in revenue. Now, what the Gentleman's Amendment would do is add to the cost of that another 80 million dollars. We're going to have to cut that much deeper and I would suggest to everybody that what that's going to mean is that much more hardship for everybody that the social net exists for in the state, be he a mental health receipent, be he a welfare receipent, be he anybody who deserves the state for help. There is no reasonable way in which we can continue to make these kinds of cuts in the budet and in taxes and balance the budget. All we're inviting is a Special Session in July, maybe 103  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 another Special Session in August, maybe another Special Session in September, and what that's going to do to your constituents who don't want to see the General Assembly in Session is going to excite them that much more and make the whole state government process that much more controversial and submit us to the charge of fraud, fraud that much more often. I would say to you that the only responsible action on this vote is to vote 'no'. And I would urge that for a change we do something responsible in this General Assembly. I would urge a 'no' vote on this Amendment."

"Representative Vinson, we apologize for the lack of order while you were speaking. Is there further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Piel. His light is on. The Gentleman from Macon, Representative Tate."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. The simple fact of the matter is 80 million dollars is 80 million dollars. The state cannot afford 80 million dollars at this time. When I read newspaper articles that people in this chamber are concerned about public aid budget reductions. We hear about cuts in mental health. We hear about cuts in education. We hear about cuts in public aid. The simple fact of the matter is, we cannot afford 80 million dollars this year. Thank you."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Bureau, Representative Mautino, to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I must comment on some of the statements made by my colleagues on both sides of the aisle. Number one, it will not affect the rating of the State of Illinois as presented by one of the previous speakers. It has nothing to do with it. The sales tax is a revenue tax. It is not a bonding tax or a back-up dollar. So that does not apply. But 104  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 we're missing one important point. Please remember when the retailer pays on last years estimate, when the sales tax is only four percent and last year it was five, at least back in 1976-'77-'78 and '79 and '80. We are increasing the amount of money that a retailer pays to the state by twenty percent. Mainly because we reduced the sales tax, but what they're paying on is the previous years estimate which was at five percent. So you're taking twenty percent off of your retailers that doesn't belong to the State of Illinois. Then those retailers basically have to go out and finance additional dollars because the state is holding their money. The back up on the Credit Memoranda which is done, by the way by hand and not by automation, is a 90 day provision. They do not allow the retailer to take immediate credit. There's about a 90 day lapse. Now if you try to borrow money, 10 or 15, 20,000 at the 90 day level, you're going to pay that 14 or 18%. I think this is a good Amendment. I opposed the accelleration program in 1976. I've opposed it every Session since then. This is not new legislation.. I believe last year it was handled by Representative Bradley. I think that it was wrong when it was implemented. It's been wrong since then. It is wrong now and we are bound by our conscience, I believe, to rectify a terrible situation, and I ask for an 'aye' vote."

"The question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?'. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', all those opposed. All those in favor will indicate by voting 'aye', those opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? The Gentleman from Whiteside, Representative Schuneman, to explain his vote."

"Mr. Speaker, if this Amendment goes on, I think the Members should understand who they're seeking to help. 105  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. You're seeking to help retailers who have monthly sales in excess of a quarter of a million dollars. Those are the only people that are affected by this Amendment. This has nothing to do with the ordinary small retailer at all in Illinois. But it has a great deal to do with the financial impact on the State of Illinois. A vote for this Amendment is the wrong vote. You're seeking to assist only those largest of the retailers in the state and you're not helping, in any way, the small retailer that perhaps you're seeking to help. I urge a 'no' vote on this bad Amendment."

"Have all voted who wish? The Gentleman from Wayne, Representative Robbins, to explain his vote."

"It seems kind of odd to hear some of the people across the aisle really are interested in business for a change. They are the ones that accellerated this back when they're party spent the state broke. Last year we approved so much tax cuts that we again have spent the state broke. So why don't we leave it alone for another year and maybe we can come out of it and not have to worry about keeping the state broke again."

"The Gentleman from... Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 90 'ayes', 67 'nos', 4 voting 'present' and Amendment #2 is adopted. Further Amendments. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Bowman, amends House Bill 1624 on page four and so forth."

"Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This Amendment affects the sales tax exemption on business machinery. First of all, let me tell you about the problem and then I'll tell you precisely in what way 106  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 the Amendment addresses the problem. But first, I think it's important to realize that the present exemption for business machinery is projected to cost the state next year, according to the Governor's budget book, 275 million dollars. That's 275 million dollars at a time the Governor is seeking to make upwards of 200 million dollars in budget cuts simply to balance the budget. The Governor is taking cognizance of this drain on the states resources by proposing a roll back in the rate for this exemption to the same rate at the year end level. That would save perhaps 132 million dollars. I hope you all payed attention to Representative Vinson's remarks on the last Amendment because he was absolutely right. At the present time there are no Bills on the floor or either chamber which will implement the Governor's recommendation. This may be your last chance to do something to bring the Governor's budget into balance because if we don't pass an Amendment such as this which addresses the issue on the revenue side, even the 200 million dollars in budget cuts will not be enough and we'll have to come back into Special Session during the summer to make even further budget cuts. Now let me tell you precisely what the Amendment does. The Amendment draws a distinction between manufacturing equipment and machinery used first directly and exclusively in the manufacturing process on the one hand and secondly, machinery used primarily in the manufacturing process on the other. What it... In making that distinction it phases in or it provides for the phase-in for an exemption of manufacturing equipment used directly and exclusively in the manufacturing process. It provides for it to be phased in on the schedule originally provided in existing legislation for the entire exemption. So there would be no interuption in the phase-in schedule for that kind of an exemption. 107  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 That, by the way, that exemption that's proposed in Amendment #3 is the exemption that was provided in a Bill that first passed the General Assembly two years ago supported widely by the media and signed by the Governor. This would be meaningful tax relief. It would provide for those companies expanding in Illinois, building new plants in Illinois that they could stock that new plant with equipment and machines and that would be exempt. So if we're talking about helping the business climate, helping business to expand in Illinois, the exemption provided for the next fiscal year in Amendment #3 would do that. However, where Amendment #3 saves the state money and reduces the drain on our resources is by splitting off the exemption for machinery used primarily in the process, not directly and exclusively. This would be equipment like tools and dyes and jigs which are not directly and exclusively used in the process. However, this part of the exemption is much, much more costly. Very much more costly. About six to eight times more costly than the exemption that provides for direct and exclusive use so that we would, if we were to adopt this Amendment, we would have an exemption next year for machinery directly and exclusively in manufacturing and the year after that and the year after that. Once that phase-in is comlete, then we expand the definition and provide for exemption based as for things like tools and dyes and jigs. And that is also in the phase-in schedule beginning when the first phase-in is complete. So we're not abolishing the exemption. We are changing the phase-in structure of the exemption. We are changing in a way that will save the state money. I estimate that it will save the state maybe 75 million dollars or more above what the Governor has provided in his budget Bill or in his budget book rather. So this is money 108  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 that the state desperately needs at this time to help prevent cuts, very deep cuts in local programs, help to prevent cuts to local governments, to help prevent cuts to grant recipients, to care providers, United Way's, Lighthouse for the Blind and so on and so forth. Lastly, one other point. This Amendment does not touch the exemption for farm machinery. You may recall and this is especially important for people who come from downstate. You may recall that the Governor is sufficiently concerned about the state of the budget that he has further recommended that we change the exemption for farm machinery and that we do not give full amount of the exemptions that farm machinery has coming to it. Well, this Amendment doesn't do that so that you can leave the farm machinery exemption in place just as it now, and you can still save the state money. You can leave the manufacturing sales tax exemption for machinery used directly and exclusively in manufacturing in place and still save the state money. This is a very responsible Amendment and let me tell you. Representative Vinson was dead right on the last Amendment. There is no other legislation currently alive on the floor in either chamber that addresses this issue. This may be your last chance. I urge an Affirmative Roll Call."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Livingston, Representative Ewing."

"Would the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"Indicates he will."

"Representative Bowman, did Governor Thompson ask you to introduce this Amendment?"

"No, but I'm sure he's just as pleased as punch."

"Why would he be pleased as punch or would he just want to punch you?" 109  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Well, I'm pretty quick on my feet by the way, Representative Ewing."

"You're quick as a cat."

"So, I think he is pleased as punch simply because in his budget book you may remember he predicated his entire budget based on the assumption that there would be a saving of 130 million dollars on a roll back in the phase-in rates. Now we haven't taken any action in either chamber on that. After that budget book was presented to us, the Governor came back and said even with that assumption we're still going to have cut, still going to have to cut 200 million dollars in programs. So, without this, we're going to have to go back and cut 132 million dollars on top of the Governor's 200 million dollars in cuts. No one likes to make those cuts, least of all the Governor I'm sure. That's why he'd be pleased with this."

"Well, Representative Bowman, your Amendment here does not give the same roll back of the tax credit that the Governor's asking, does it?"

"It gives a little more, in fact."

"I thought he was asking to roll it back to the one and a quarter cents with no date for carrying it forward. It looks to me like you're going right ahead in putting it in. But with the different schedule and splitting up between directly and exclusively and primary."

"Representative Ewing, insofar as the machinery and equipment is used directly and exclusively in the manufacturing process, there is not roll back. We proceed on the existing statutory schedule."

"But the Governor's asking for a roll back. Right?"

"Well, my point is that by changing the definitional base we can still proceed on the existing schedule for machinery used directly and exclusively in manufacturing and still 110  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 save the state money. Not just the 132 the Governor suggested..."

"But not saving as much as the Governor would save by carrying it all the way back."

"I'm sorry. Would you repeat the question?"

"But not save as much as the Governor would save if we rolled it all the way back."

"Oh, yes. More."

"More."

"Yes, Sir."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I want to take a reverse action here. I think we want to approve this Amendment. I think we want to mix it in with the last Amendment. I think we want to put it all on this Bill. And I think it'll make it a lot easier when we get to Third Reading and I certainly would encourage everybody on this side to vote for it. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Lake, Representative Pierce."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I agree with the Chairman of the Revenue Committee. It is an excellent Amendment. I appreciate his support and I have no objection to Amendment #3 and ask that we adopt it."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman, to close."

"Well, Representative... Mr. Speaker, it appears that everyone seems to be supporting this Amendment, so I forego the closing and ask for an Affirmative Roll Call."

"The question is, 'Shall Amendment #3 be adopted?'. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment #3 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments." 111.  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Third Reading.. Gentleman from DeKalb, Representative Ebbesen, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Well, Mr. Speaker, I was... Could the Chair give us some information regarding the schedule for today? Are we going to break for lunch or are we going to... It was indicated last night by the real Speaker that..."

"As soon as I hear from the real Speaker I'll share the secret with you."

"Thank you."

"House Bill 1630, Representative Kosinski. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1630.

"Representative Kosinski. House Bill 1630? Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"A Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Vehicle Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions ... of Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Floor Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Kosinski, amends House Bill 1630 on page two, line 28 and so forth."

"Gentleman from Cook, Representative Kosinski."

"First of all to explain the Bill, this was the Bill which demanded first line tires on the steering wheels of trucks and buses in the State of Illinois rather than recaps, retreads, reprocessed tires. It's a safety Bill. In... When the Committee Amendment #1 was adopted, I inadvertently forgot something I wished to include. It's in reference to my friends the farmers and Amendment #2 covers that. I am not concerned about such tires on tractors in the field nor tires on tractors that transport farm produce less than twenty miles at speeds under 45 112  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 miles an hour. So in protection of the farmers which I intended to include in Amendment #1, I wish to adopt Amendment #2."

"Is there any discussion? Question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?'. Those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #2 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Kosinski, amends House Bill 1630 as amended."

"Gentleman from Cook, Representative Kosinski."

"Mr. Clerk, I think that's a duplication of Amendment #2, isn't it?"

"It appears the language is the same, although the underscoring is different."

"I see evidently there's a technical problem with Amendment #2 and that's why we're forwarding Amendment #3. The same affect occurs, Mr. Speaker..."

"Do you move to table Amendment #2?"

"I move to table Amendment #2 and adopt Amendment #3."

"Gentleman moves to table Amendment #2. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay' and Amendment #2 is tabled."

"Now I move the adoption of Amendment #3 which is technically correct, but it does the same thing as Amendment #2."

"Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #3. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #3 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1632, Representative Tate. 1632. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1632, a Bill for an Act providing 113  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 protection of public health and safety by prohibiting possession, delivering, manufacturing, advertising of drug paraphenalia. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Cullerton, amends House Bill 1632 on page one and so forth."

"Gentleman from Cook, Representative Cullerton."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This Amendment brings this Bill in conformity with the Bill that Representative Stanley has and also with the Bill that we passed out of here last Session that did not pass in the Senate. It bans the sale of tobacco accessories and smoking herbs to minors. This Bill is designed to, it's patterned after a law that we have in many municipalities throughout the state including Chicago and Elgin and it is designed to affectively and constitutionally stop the head shops that attempt to sell to, pardon the expression, head shops that attempt to sell to minors. It's a Bill that has, as I said, passed this House but did not pass the Senate. I believe that the Sponsor is in favor of the Amendment. It improves this Bill and I would ask for a favorable vote on this Amendment."

"Is there any discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be...'. The Gentleman from Macon, Representative Tate."

"Mr.... Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen, I just want to rise in support of Representative Cullerton's Amendment. We have agreed that this language would bring the Bill into the proper form for passage of the House."

"Question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be adopted?'. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 114  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #1 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1648, Representative Davis. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1648, a Bill for an Act to amend the Revenue Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendment."

"Are there Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Davis, amends House Bill 1648 on page four and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Will, Representative Davis."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #1 simply attempts to restrict the affect of the Bill to Will County only. I have no desire with the affect of the Bill to invoke this kind of a measure in any other county in the State of Illinois and since Will County, I'm ashamed to say, has one of the most fouled up taxing systems on the real estate property tax in the state, that I feel it necessary to offer the Bill, 1648, and the Amendment to try and restrict it only to Will County. It does two things. It affects now only counties between three and four hundred thousand in population and I hope that's just Will. And it increases or sets an amount in the Bill of notification of 200,000 dollars in property assessment. That's all the Bill does. That's all it's going to do. Wherever it goes and wherever it comes back it's an isolated problem just unto us."

"Is there any discussion? Question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be adopted?'. All those in favor indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #1 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments." 115  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Third Reading. House Bill 1661, Representative... Out of the record, Mr. Clerk. House Bill 1679, Representative Hoxsey. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1679, a Bill for an Act to amend the Charitable Solicitation Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"None."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1681, Representative Ropp. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1681, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Public Aid Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions relative to Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Ropp, amends House Bill 1681 as amended."

"The Gentleman from McLean, Representative Ropp."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. Amendment #2 puts a cap on the Bill which states allowable costs and that's the only change. It gives some ceiling as to the amount of money that will be charged for certain costs and the word 'allowable' has been added to the Bill."

"Is there any discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?'. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed. 'Ayes' have it and Amendment #2 is adopted. Are there any further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"A request for a fiscal note was filed. Has the 116  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 fiscal note been..." Ropp; "I don't think it has but it's enroute."

"It'll have to stay on Second Reading. House Bill 1690, Representative Terzich. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1690, a Bill for an Act to amend Sections of the Illinois Pension Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions relative to Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Terzich, amends House Bill 1690 on page four and so forth."

"Gentleman from Cook, Representative Terzich."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, Amendment #2 is at the request of the Pension Committee which will exclude the participation under the state mandate program. and I move for its adoption."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #2. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye', opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #2 is adopted. Are there any further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1715, Representative Tuerk. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1715, a Bill for an Act to amend an Act relating to the composition of election of county boards in certain counties. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"None." 117  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Third Reading. House Bill 1719, Representative McGrew. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1719, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Steczo et al, amends House Bill 1719 on page one and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Steczo."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. Amendment #1 to House Bill 1719 was introduced by myself and Representatives Birkinbine, Chapman, Hallstrom, Jaffe, and Nelson and this Amendment refers to suburban Cook County only, and refers to the position of school township treasurers which were abolished in downstate in 1962. Many local school districts in the suburban area, in fact, 100% of the high school districts and 91% of the elementary and secondary districts maintain their own records and documents. Therefore, the position of the school township treasurer is duplicative and costly to those local districts. So what we attempt to do in Amendment #1 is not to necessarily abolish the office by to allow local districts to make their own determination and to, by vote of the board, opt out of that system if they so choose and to offer the residents of that particular school district a process by referendum to determine whether or not they want to retain that system. So I would ask for the support of the Membership on Amendment #1 to 1719. In terms of trying to provide some relief to the school districts who feel that their operations in terms of the operation of the school treasure's offices could be done in a much better way and it would save them, you know, money for certain and 118  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. also provide that protection for residents of that local area who wish to keep the system and have a referendum to determine whether or not that system is the best for them."

"Is there any discussion? The Lady from Cook, Representative Pullen."

"Mr. Speaker, would you please inform the House whether this Amendment is germane?"

"The Lady questions the germaneness of the Amendment. Can I see it, Mr. Clerk? The ruling is that it is germane."

"Mr. Speaker, may I address the Amendment, please?"

"Proceed."

"I think it should be pointed out to the House that it is, if it is germane at all it is only technically germane. It has nothing to do with the Bill that was approved by Committee. This Amendment would permit school districts to opt out of the township school treasurer's system and I think that the Members of this House ought to very carefully consider such a situation that is being proposed here because I recall a couple of years ago when the Chicago school funding situation arose all the difficulties that auditors and various other people had in determining who really had what money. And the fact that the monies were mixed. They were being held not by an outside independent, impartial source but by the school system. I think that that was...that the township school treasurer situation in the rest of the state has served to protect the taxpayers but that is the kind of thing that is very difficult to get across to them for their own best interest in a situation where they have the opportunity to remove an official from government. This House witnessed last November the vote of the people in removing public officials from government that the public may very soon rue 119  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 having taken that action, giving up elected public officials for appointed staff people, losing representation and not having representation in government. I think this Amendment should be defeated. I think if the Gentleman wants to propose such a Bill, he should take it through the Committee system in the normal course and should not be attaching to a Bill that has nothing whatsoever to do with school treasurers. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Huskey."

"Mr. Speaker, I couldn't agree more with Representative Pullen. This is too serious of a Bill to hang on as an Amendment. This is a political Bill. It's made to help desolve the system we're using in Cook County, the township treasurer, the school township treasurer. It's a devisive of means to help destroy township government and it's certainly a bad Bill, and it certainly should deserve the support, the defeat of every Member of this House. Because if the City of Chicago had this type of treasury where we have someone looking in on what was happening to the money of the City of Chicago, they would have never, never gotten into the financial mess that they got into without the public knowing about it. So this is a bad Bill, bad Amendment and it certainly should get the reward it deserves with a big red vote and thank you very much."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook... I beg your pardon. The Lady from Cook, Representative Chapman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Sponsor of the Amendment, Sir."

"He indicates he'll yield."

"I've been interested in the office of township school treasurer trustee for a number of years. It exists only in 120  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 the suburbs of Cook County. No other school district in the entire state has this extra expensive layer on top of them except suburban school districts. And I've been pleased to see that Senator Totten has introduced legislation into the Senate that will deal with this issue. I wonder, Representative, could you tell me, is your Amendment similar to the Bill which Senator Totten is proposing in the Senate which will provide an option to local voters to decide if they want to continue this archaic duplicatory form of government?"

"Representative Steczo, I believe that was a question."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it was. It vaguely resembled one, Mr. Speaker."

"Vaguely resembled a speech too."

"In answer to Representative Chapman, yes it is similar to the legislation that Senator Totten's introduced in the Senate. I think the Senator and I agree on the fact that school districts are governed by elected school boards and that the township school treasurer is an appointed position but not by the school boards. And in response to a previous speaker, it has nothing to do with township government."

"The Lady from Cook."

"Just one word then about the Amendment. I would ask everyone in this House to join, pardon me, join Senator Totten and join Representative Steczo in offering to the voters in our suburbs the chance to have their school boards appoint their own treasurers as all other governmental units do and as other school boards do."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Nelson."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I am a Cosponsor of this Amendment and I would ask 121  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 for your affirmative vote. It is, as was pointed out by the Sponsor, optional and it would give the power to the local boards of education to decide how they wish to invest their money. In my own district, high school district 204, Lion's Township High School, we found that the township school treasurer had invested the money from the various school districts in a brand new bank and in fact that the assets, the total assets of that bank were less than twice the money that was deposited by the township school treasurer. In other words, the schools were supporting that bank entirely and I think that is a bad business practice. I would ask your support of Amendment #1 to House Bill 1719. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Steczo, to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. I would like to reiterate what I had mentioned in my previous statement that this Bill affects only suburban Cook County. These offices were abolished downstate in 1962. We do have a situation where our local school boards are elected. They can appoint their own auditors. They can appoint their own attorneys. They can appoint their own architects yet when it comes to financial matters, they have to deal exclusively with the school township treasurer. Our school boards in the suburbs want to have this option. They feel that there's much duplication that goes on with the school township treasurers office. Right now, many of them, have to or do have their own duplicative processes so they can attract the investment procedure, they can monitor what the school township treasurer does. The school township treasurers office depends on the local school district to reconcile bank statements, to provide for a monthly statement of cash receipts and disbursements and to provide 122  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. accounting data as well as providing other problems. When we heard the statements before about any kind of problems with the township government I would ask you that in your municipal governments you don't have appointed people that deal with their finances. No municipality, no village, no city would stand for that. Townships are the same way. Those are all elected officials who should have control over the finances of their particular unit of local government. I feel this is a good Bill. It's a responsive Bill and it's a permissive Bill. It allows local school districts to choose their own future in terms of dealing with the school township treasurer or retaining that particular system. I would ask for your support of Amendment #1 to House Bill 1719."

"The question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be adopted?'. All those in favor will indicate by voting 'aye', oppose by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 110 voting 'aye', 28 voting 'no', 2 voting 'present' and Amendment #1 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, McGrew, amends House Bill 1719 on page one and so forth."

"I'm informed that this Amendment has not been printed and distributed so the Bill will have to remain on Second Reading awaiting this Amendment. The Gentleman from Knox, Representative McGrew, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Would it be possible to move it to Third and then I'll bring it back to Second at a later date?"

"You'd have to dispose of Amendment #2 before you do that, Representative McGrew, so you'd have to move to table Amendment #2."

"I don't...I don't think that's the case, Mr. Speaker." 123  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Well, the Amendment has been filed but not printed and distributed. The Gentleman from Madison, Representative McClain."

"Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. The Sponsor of the Bill always has that latitude to move the Bill onto Third. We did the same thing last night with Mr. Reilly's Bill."

"You're correct. Awaiting an Amendment but this Amendment has been filed."

"Same thing happened last night. I had an Amendment that was filed but not printed and distributed. I permitted Mr. Reilly to move his Bill to Third Reading and we brought it back to Second Reading today. Same situation, Sir."

"Is Representative McGrew the Sponsor of the Amendment? Alright. Then we can do it. Move it to Third Reading with the assurance that we'll move it back. Third Reading. House Bill 1763, Representative Telcser. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1763, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Pension Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1 has been withdrawn. Amendment #2, Telcser, amends House Bill 1763 on page one and so forth."

"Representative Telcser. Is the Gentleman on the floor? Take it out of the record temporarily, Mr. Clerk. House Bill 1767, Representative Friedrick. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1767, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Public Aid Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?" 124  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Floor Amendment #1, Virginia Frederick, amends House Bill 1767 on page one and deleting lines..."

"Lady from Lake, Representative Frederick."

"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, before I present the Amendment, may I have leave to consider 1768 which is a companion Bill and addresses the same problem? It's on the Short Debate, Second Reading."

"Are there any objections to the Lady's Motion to remove House Bill 1768 from the Order of Short Debate and consider it on Second Reading with House Bill 1763(sic, 1767). Hearing no objections, read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1768, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Satterthwaite, amends House Bill 1768 on page one, line twelve and so forth."

"We'll have to take these separately. House Bill 1763 first. There is..."

"1767. May I take that first?"

"I beg your pardon. 1767 first. It is your Amendment to House Bill 1767."

"Yes."

"Representative Frederick."

"Amendment #1 of House Bill 1767 really become the Bill and provides that upon the request of a penal or correctional facility the Illinois Department of Public Aid shall cooperate in providing informational material and application forms concerning financial aid or social services under this Act to the facility and in providing an interview with the appropriate public aid office for persons incarcerated in such a facility upon their release from the facility. This Amendment came about as a result 125  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 of hearings that were held at Dwight Prison and where we found out that the big problem with people who were eligible for public aid sometimes had to wait as long as 45 days to get that aid. So this Amendment does have the approval of the Department and I urge your adoption."

"Is there any discussion? The Lady from Champaign, Representative Satterthwaite. On this one or the next one?"

"Next one but I support this Amendment as well."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Getty."

"Would the Lady yield?"

"She indicates she will."

"First of all just one moment, parliamentary inquiry. We are on 1767. There is no reference to 1768 at this time. Is that correct?"

"That's correct. We're on Amendment #1 to House Bill 1767."

"Alright. The purpose of this is to see that a person who is incarcerated has an opportunity to know of his rights, if any, to apply for public aid upon his release from the penitentiary. Is that correct?"

"That is partially correct. In addition to being informed of his rights he or she may also be supplied with application forms for such aid and preparations are made for an immediate interview for that person upon release to shorten the time lag that such aid may be applying."

"Would this extend to a person formally a resident of another state who came into this state and committed a crime and was incarcerated in one of our penal institutions for a period of time and then was to be released on mandatory supervised release as provided by the statutes?"

"I'm not sure I understand what you mean by mandatory. 126  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 The person must be a resident of the State of Illinois in order to qualify for such aid."

"What I'm trying to ascertain from you is is it your intent to provide this to people who were formerly, that is prior to their convictions, not residents of the State of Illinois but of course have been in residence necessarily because of their incarceration in a penal institution in this state for some period of time?"

"Actually, the Amendment does not address that kind of person."

"I'm...That's why I'm asking you to find out what your legislative intent is. Is it the legislative intent to extend that to those people or to only people who were formerly, that is prior to their conviction, residents of the State of Illinois?"

"It is my judgement that it would people that are formally residents of the State of Illinois."

"Alright. Mr. Speaker, may I, on the Amendment?"

"Proceed."

"I think that there probably is some merit to this. I don't know that it's as tightly drawn as I would want to have it. If this is adopted, it conceivably could keep somebody from going back out on the street after release from the institution and committing another crime. But I would respectfully suggest to this Body that there's a far cheaper and better way of fighting this and that's by providing reasoned and systematic re-entry by halfway houses so that instead of releasing people and paying them public aid, you release them to a half wayhouse and you make them go to work and start earning a living instead of being... praying on society further. I'm not saying this is bad. I'm going to vote for it but I'm saying this Body should be very, very interested in making our system not 127  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 one where we turn people out of the penitentiary and then give them public aid. If we're going to turn them out of the penitentiary, let's put them in a halfway house then let's get them working; then let's get them supporting their family and off public aid doles."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Leverenz."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"She indicates she'll yield."

"What benefits does a prisoner receive when they get out of prison? Do they get a new suit or any cash or anything of that nature?"

"At the moment I understand that a prisoner is given 100 dollars upon release."

"They get 100 dollars upon release. They don't get a change of clothes or anything like that?"

"I'm not aware of that, no."

"Doesn't your Amendment then give a leg up for a person that has been in prison but the same benefit is not afforded to a person that has led a clean life, so to speak, not had a problem, not been in jail. It eliminates the normal processing and waiting time. I mean, is that true?"

"Actually, Representative, the problem is primarily focused on women who are the sole support of small children and there truly is no way that such a woman could come out of prison and immediately go to work and provide for the care of her children at the same time. She, under the present law, would have to wait probably a minimum of 45 days before receiving any kind of support at all and heavens knows what she might have to do in order to support herself in that interval. So this Bill..." 128  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Are you suggesting that they have to turn to prostitution to support themselves?"

"I'm not...No. I am not indicating that they have to turn to prostitution but there may be other crimes that they might have to turn to. All we're trying to do, these people are entitled to financial aid in the first place and all we're trying to do is shorten the time (end of tape)."

"...wait probably a minimum of 45 days before receiving any kind of support at all and heaven knows what she might have to do in order to support herself in that interval. So this Bill..."

"Are you suggesting that they have to turn to prostitution to support themselves?"

"I'm not...No. I am not indicating that they have to turn to prostitution, but there may be other crimes that they have to turn to."

"Well, you..."

"All we're trying to do, these people are entitled to financial aid in the first place. And all we're trying to do is shorten the time lag so that they do not have this long wait before they have some kind of support."

"Well, what percent of the people that end up being clients to the Public Aid Department are you giving then special treatment to?"

"Actually, I do not have those figures. All I know is that of about 345 residents at Dwight Correctional Center, 80 percent of them are the sole support of children and this is what our primary concern is."

"Well, what about the prisoners released from Statesville that are men, Menard and all the other institutions in the State of Illinois? What's the impact for them? The analysis says 60 percent female. What about the 40 percent?" 129  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Well, actually this applies to men as well as women prisoners who have such need."

"By introducing this Amendment what you're really saying, if you can answer it, is that a person to get a jump on the public aid program should actually go to jail first so they get three square meals a day and a bed..."

"No.. No..."

"...Until the public aid money starts flowing?"

"No, Sir. That is not my intent."

"Well, that's the way to take greatest advantage of your Amendment, is it not?"

"I do not believe that is true. No."

"Why are...How can we extend the same privilege to a person that has to apply for public aid that's out on the street then? ...Answer that question?"

"No, I can't."

"Then you do agree that a prisoner that is released receives $100.00 cash..."

"Just a minute, Mr. Leverenz. The Lady from Cook, Representative Balanoff, for what purpose do you arise?" Balanoff: Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, the Sponsor of this Bill is the Sponsor of the Amendment and if people want to vote it up or down on Third Reading that's fine. But I don't think she should...I think it's out of order to have her explain the whole Bill now and to argue with her now on the whole Bill."

"I think your point is well taken."

"Thank you."

"Confine yourself to the Amendment, please, Representative Leverenz."

"Fine. Would the Sponsor then again explain the Amendment?" 130  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Actually, I think I have explained the Amendment and I should say to you in response to your question about preferential treatment for people incarcerated, people on the outside have the freedom every day of the week to go and apply for public aid. This is not true if you're incarcerated in a penal institution. And we just tried to make this more accessible for people like that who are the sole providers of children. So that is the purpose of my Amendment."

"Well, thank you. Mr. Speaker, to the Amendment..."

"Proceed.."

"It appears that the Amendment provides for unequal treatment under the law and that would be an injustice to the system. Thank you."

"The Lady from Marshall, Representative Koehler."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Sponsor yield for a question please? I would like to ask you, Representative, does the family which is probably being cared for by public aid continue to receive public aid during the interim period between the time that the so-called head of household would be released from prison and in the interim days before they could receive public aid on their own? Does the family of this so-called head of household continue to receive public aid?"

"Not always, Representative."

"Pardon?"

"Not always. It depends on where the minor children are placed for care during the interim. Sometimes they are placed out of state. Sometimes they are placed by DCFS. But the family does not always receive aid while the mother is in prison or the father is in prison."

"No. I was asking, if they are ...If they are on aid 131.  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 while the mother or father is in prison, does this aid continue in the interim time between the time that the parent is released from prison and the time that they can receive?"

"It probably does for the minor children, yes. But, that does not include the mother who is just...or the father who has just been released. So there has to be a recomputation of benefits and that time."

"Okay. But the children do...would continue to receive it?"

"Yes."

"Thank you."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Stewart."

"I rise in support of the Sponsor's Amendment. I think it's important that we also remember that when people are released from penal institutions with no place to go, with no provisions made for them, what else are we expecting but a return to their former criminal behavior?. I think that at least this Amendment provides for..basically for information and presents the option to people before they are in the street and dependent on their own wit., I think it's a good Bill. It's a good Amendment. I think one of the other speakers was grilling the Sponsor unnecessarily and I would urge an 'aye' vote."

"The Lady from Lake, Representative Frederick, to close."

"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen, I think you've heard the Bill discussed sufficiently. I urge adoption of the Amendment."

"The question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be adopted?' All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'; opposed. And the 'ayes'...All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'...by voting 'aye'; those opposed 132  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Gentleman from...Take...Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 89 voting 'aye', 52 voting 'no', 4 voting 'present'. And Amendment #1 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1768, Representative Frederick. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1768, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Public Aid Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Satterthwaite, amends House Bill 1768 on page one, line twelve and so forth."

"The Lady from Champaign, Representative Satterthwaite."

"Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, this is simply a rewording of the Bill as it was originally introduced. There is no change in the intent of the Amendment and it now meets the approval of the Department of Public Aid and I urge your support."

"Is there any discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be adopted?' All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'; opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it. And Amendment #1 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendment."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1763, Representative Telcser."

"House Bill 1763, has been read a second time previously. Amendment #1 was withdrawn. Amendment #2, Telcser, amends House Bill 1763." 133  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Telcser."

"Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, Amendment #2 simply takes out the provisions for nonsalaried employees on page one, lines 19 through 22."

"Is there any discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?' All those...The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman."

"A question of the Sponsor."

"Indicates he'll yield."

"Does this affect the General Assembly Retirement Fund at all?"

"The Bill does, yes. And what I'm doing with this Amendment is taking out some nonsalary people, who, if the Bill should pass and become law, would have benefits. I don't think that..."

"Okay.. Could you explain what a nonsalaried person is? Could you give me an example?"

"Let's say somebody was a member of a Park Board.."

"Yes?"

"And they got $20.00 a day per diem."

"Yes."

"Or they got no salary. The Bill as it's written right now would give them the opportunity to come into the system. What I'm saying is they really ought not to have the opportunity."

"Okay. So you're saying this is a good Amendment."

"It kind of makes it easier to support the Bill."

"It makes it more restrictive."

"Correct."

"Okay. Thank you."

"Further discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?' All those in favor will indicate 134  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. by saying 'aye'; all those opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1785, Representative Davis. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 1785, (a Bill for) an Act to transfer certain functions of the Department of Labor to the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"None."

"Third Reading. House Bill 1814, Representative Findley. Is the Gentleman on the floor? Out of the record. House Bills, this is on Second Reading, page three of your Calendar. House Bill 61, Representative Matijevich? Representative Matijevich? House Bills..."

"Mr. Speaker, just hold that. We're going to hold that Bill for a while."

"Out of the record. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Madigan."

"Mr. Speaker, could you explain your new plan?"

"Yes. We're starting right at the beginning of Second Reading and going through."

"Numerically?"

"Numerically."

"Thank you."

"House Bill 65, Representative Davis. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 65, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions relative to Amendment 135  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Davis, amends House Bill 65 on page one and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Will, Representative Davis."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #2 was inadvertently not ready for Committee action or it would have been put on in Committee. It's an Amendment consistent with the same kind of language we've put in the 'Greer' case statute last year that got caught in the cracks at the end of the Session. It simply refers to the doctors and the mothers and the Abortion Act of 1975. Puts the Bill in the kind of shape that I think everybody in this General Assembly can support House Bill 65. And I would move for its adoption."

"Any discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?' All those ....The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Beatty."

"Would the Sponsor please indicate just what the Amendment does? I don't remember back to what that Bill did in that year..."

"He indicates he'll yield."

"I'm sorry, Representative. What it does is hold harmless because the Abortion Act of 1975 has felony penalties and a class 2 felony for third trimester, fetus murder by the mother herself or by doctors who perform illegal abortions. And the ..Also the Abortion Act protects the mother and the physician from any prosecution under that Act if the abortion was for medically or therapeutic reasons. And consequently House Bill 65 has to do with the subject of fetus murder by other persons other than the mother herself. This Bill simply....er..this Amendment simply brings it into focus that the 1975 Abortion Act protects, 136  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 or not protects, but is covered...covers the classes of people that we're talking about, the mother herself and the physician under that Act and does not make them liable for prosecution under the tenants of House Bill 65. It was the Daniels' Amendment."

"The question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?' All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye; opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 79, Representative Catania. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 79, a Bill for an Act to revise the law: in relationship to the public assistants and the Illinois Public Aid Code. Second Reading of the Bill..."

"The...Oh..."

"Amendments #1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 were filed in...were adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions relative to Amendments #1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #7, Matijevich, amends House Bill 79 on page 52 and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Lake, Representative Matijevich."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, could I have leave to withdraw Amendment #7, please?"

"The Gentleman withdraws Amendment #7. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #8, Currie, amends House Bill 79 on page one, 34 and so forth."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Currie." 137  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. Amendment #8 would require the Department of Public Aid to report annually to the Legislative Advisory Committee on Public Aid the number of staff assigned to fulfill certain responsibilities. It would help us, in the Legislature, make the determination whether the staffing levels at the Department of Public Aid are in fact appropriate and adequate to the tasks of the present case loads. I urge adoption of Amendment #8."

"Is there any discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #8 be adopted?' All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'; opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #8 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #9 has been withdrawn. Number ten has been withdrawn. Floor Amendment #11, Vinson."

"Mr. Speaker?"

"For what purpose does the Lady from Cook, Representative Currie, arise?"

"Just to ask whether Amendment #11 has been distributed. I don't seem to have a copy upon my desk."

"Just a minute. It has not been distributed."

"Well, then we can't move the Bill up...move to Third..."

"Then we cannot proceed any further. How many more? The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Daniels, for what purpose do you arise?"

"Well, Mr. Speaker, I am advised that Amendment #11 is the one that Representative Vinson would like to go with that he tabled #10 in order to get to #11. And I would request that we hold the Bill on Second Reading until #11 is distributed. I understand it has been filed, but not yet distributed. No, Settle down over there. We want to get down to this. Emil, we'll take care of you in due 138  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 time. Soon as it's distributed we'd like to get this Amendment heard."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Catania, are you seeking recognition?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We held this Bill all last week waiting for the Department of Public Aid to get its Act together. We held it in Committee for three hearings so the Department of Public Aid could get its Act together and now I would like to move it to Third Reading please."

"Well, absent the permission of the Sponsor of the Amendment, we cannot move to Third Reading. I would suggest to the Lady.....I would suggest to the Lady she can move to table the Amendment."

"Thank you. I move to table the Amendment."

"All right. The Lady has moved that Amendment #11 to House Bill 79 be tabled. The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Daniels."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, I understand you tabled Amendment #10. Is that correct?"

"It was withdrawn."

"Who withdrew it?"

"I'm advised that it was done by the direction of the Sponsor."

"Who's the Sponsor?"

"Representative Vinson."

"Representative Vinson is not on the floor, Mr. Speaker. How could he withdraw it?"

"It was ...I'm told it was an instruction to the Clerk."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't think we take those kind of instructions unless the Member is on the floor. Was number nine tabled as well? Who was the Sponsor?"

"Was withdrawn as well. It's Representative 139  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Vinson's Amendment also."

"Who was the Sponsor of nine?"

"Representative Vinson I stated."

"And again, he wasn't there to withdraw or table that. Well, I think...I think, you know, we want to very careful here. I'm not going to speak for Representative Vinson. The man, you know, he should control his own Amendments. I don't think we should just willy-nilly be tabling and withrawing Amendments without the Sponsor of the Bill being on the floor. Now either we run legislation properly in this House, or we don't. And I'm all for do it properly, Mr. Jones and Ms. Catania, but I don't want to be moving legislation without the Sponsor being here. So I suggest we hold this Bill. Go on to another one. We'll send the pages out. Try to find Representative Vinson, very fine Member of this House and then we'll come back and try to move this Bill then. And I think that's the proper way to proceed."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Jones."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't know whether you're playing favoritism. I've been trying to get your attention and you keep recognizing your own side of the aisle. But, the question is, does the Sponsor of a piece of legislation have control over the destiny of that legislation? And I think precedent has already been set in this General Assembly wherein if the person who is sponsoring the Amendment is not on the floor at the time the Amendment is called, if the Sponsor so desires for her Bill to go to Third Reading, then that Bill automatically goes to Third Reading."

"The Lady from Cook, on a point...Representative Catania, on a point of order. State your point."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We're not debating whether the 140  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Sponsor ought to be on the floor or not. The Amendment has not even been distributed. So even if the Sponsor were here for the Amendment it wouldn't do much good. The Motion is to table the Amendment which hasn't even been distributed, so we can move this Bill which has been held up by the Department for months. After we had a Committee to revise and rewrite the Public Aid Code, which worked for two years to put the Bill together with the Public Aid Department breathing down our necks the whole time. I would ask for a vote on my Motion to table."

"Well, you're going to get one and we've asked for discussion relative to your Motion to table."

"But it has nothing to do with whether the Sponsor is here or not."

"Representative Matijevich, state your point."

"Point of order, even the Motion to table is not in order. The Amendment really is not before us. The only thing we have before us is a Bill which we have completed and which then must be ordered to the Order of Third Reading. And the reason I say that is that we are in the last week of when Bills on Third Reading must be called. The Speaker earlier said that we are going to go on the Order of Call. All Members should be here. Some of you may not have heard that because you weren't on the floor. We got here at eight o'clock. And anybody who doesn't have their Bill called is in jeopardy that that Bill may not be passed or you may not even have the opportunity to consider it. For us now to hold a Bill because a Member is not on the floor I think is a serious jeopardy to the Sponsor who is on the floor, no matter who it might be, and I think that the only thing we can do is order this Bill to Third Reading. Then if Susan wants to work with Vinson and call it back to Third, that's her priority. She can call it 141  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 back if she so wants to. But the only order of business we have now is to order this Bill to Third Reading."

"Representative Matijevich, your point is not well taken. The Bill is not being held because the Sponsor of the Amendment is not on the floor. The problem is that the Amendment has been filed and not printed and distributed. The Gentleman from DeWitt, Representative Vinson."

"Mr. Speaker, is the status of the situation that the Bill, under precedent, the Bill will be held on Second Reading if it is not distributed? Or, do I need to go with Amendment #10?"

"The position of the Bill is that it would be held on Second Reading pending the distribution of the Amendment unless the Lady's Motion to table the Amendment prevails. And the Motion is before the House."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, then is it appropriate for me, at this point, to go with Amendment #10?"

"It's been pointed out to the Chair that the Sponsor did not request the withdrawal of the Amendment. And perhaps....the Chair was in error in ordering that withrawn. I would think that it would be in order for the Gentleman to proceed with his Amendment. Has it been printed and distributed?"

"Amendment #10 has been printed and distributed."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Getty."

"Mr. Speaker, I thought I heard the Chair inquire and saw the Clerk of this House respond that it was at the request of the Sponsor. And the Chair then said, after talking to the Clerk, that it was at the request of the Sponsor."

"That was our understanding. It was a misunderstanding."

"I'd like to know from the Clerk if there ever was any 142  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 request. And Representative Vinson is absolutely right, if there was never a request made. But if we're just changing the rules in midstream to accommodate somebody, it's a disservice to this entire House."

"The Gentleman from DeWitt, Representative Vinson."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And in response to Representative Getty's request, I will absolutely say to him and to every Member of this House, that I have never made a request to table or withdraw either Amendment 9 or 10."

"All right. We currently have before us a Motion to table Amendment #11. Does the Lady care to withdraw that Motion?"

"No."

"Representative Daniels."

"Let's just back up a little bit here so we can get on with this busy day. Representative Vinson has told you, as the Speaker of this House said, that he did not ask that 9 and 10 be withdrawn. Somebody obviously passed that message up in his stead. He is now asking you to go with Amendment #10, Mr. Speaker, and I think that because the Gentleman is here, he did not himself move to table or withdraw Amendment #10, that you ought to back up and give him an opportunity to present his Amendment, like you would to any other Member of this House. Now, let's do it in an orderly fashion. Give them an opportunity to present it so that we can get on with the business of the House. What are you afraid of? Let's go with the Bill."

"The Gentleman's Motion...The Gentleman's Amendments 9 and 10 were erroneously passed over by the Chair. The Gentleman has the right to call his Amendments. Therefore, any Amendment...any Motions relative to 143  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Amendment #11 at this time would be out of order. We'll revert to Amendments 9 and 10 for the Gentleman's pleasure and disposal. Then we will proceed to 11 and if the Lady choses to pose her Motion again, it'll be considered at that time."

"Floor Amendment #9, Vinson, amends House Bill 79 as amended."

"The Gentleman from DeWitt, Representative Vinson."

"I would withraw Amendment #9, Mr. Speaker."

"The Gentleman withraws Amendment #9. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #10, Vinson, amends House Bill 79 as amended."

"Just a minute. The Gentleman from Bond, Representative Slape, for what purpose do you arise?"

"Yes, an inquiry of the Chair. Is the Chair absolutely sure that this time Representative Vinson wants to withraw. Amendment #9?"

"The Chair is satisfied. I hope you are. Further Amendments? The Gentleman from DeWitt, Representative Vinson."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Amendment #10 substantially changes certain aspects of the Lady's Bill. The most significant way in which it changes the Bill is to reduce its cost by 261.1 million dollars. What the Lady's Bill does is to rewrite the Public Aid Code of Illinois, something that undoubtedly needs to be done. But it doesn't need to be done in a fashion which increases costs to the taxpayers of Illinois and which expands..."

"Just a minute, Representative Vinson. For what purpose does the Lady from Cook, Representative Currie, 144  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 arise?"

"With a point of order, Mr. Speaker..."

"State your point."

"I think there are technical problems with Amendment #10 that Representative Vinson is presenting to us. And I'd like to ask whether we want to move on an Amendment that is technically inaccurate. For example, on page nine, line seven, Section 4104, I believe that should be Section 4106."

"Does the Gentleman..."

"For example, lines that are deleted on page six and replaced are then further deleted on page eight of this Amendment. I would ask the Gentleman to withdraw the Amendment on the grounds of these technical inaccuracies."

"Does the Gentleman wish to proceed with his Amendment?"

"Yes, Mr. Speaker."

"Proceed."

"The ...What the Amendment will do is to strengthen the Lady's Bill most substantially. The Amendment will avoid, for instance, the ...."

"The Gentleman from Adams, Representative McClain, for what purpose do you arise? Excuse me, Representative Vinson."

"Parliamentary inquiry, please."

"State your point."

"Mr. Speaker, we would suggest that the Amendment is out of order and should be ruled as such."

"On what basis is it out of order?"

"On the same basis that Ms. Currie just presented to the Chair, on those technical deficiencies, the Gentleman has two..or three alternatives then, whether to amend on the face with leave, to withdraw the Amendment and thirdly then, 145  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 to present another Amendment. But it's technically incorrect at this time. We'd ask the Chair to so order."

"Mr. Speaker?"

"Yes."

"All we're talking about is the enumeration of a Section and that's not adequate basis for ruling the Amendment out of order and I'm perfectly willing to proceed with the enumeration of the Sections as would be realized through the Amendment."

"Well, I think on that basis, it's in order. Representative Currie?"

"It's not the only deficiency, Mr. Speaker. I would refer you to page six where ...where on page 25, lines six through thirty-five are deleted ...on page 26, '..deleting line one and inserting in lieu thereof the following...'. Later on in the Amendment the same operation is on page 26, deleting line one which has just been replaced by something is then deleted. And it's a good deal more of a problem than just inaccurate numbering of the Sections."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, the problem with what the Lady is suggesting is that I am perfectly satisfied to have the Bill stand with the Amendment..."

"But, Mr. Speaker..."

"...I have no problems with that. I think that's a perfectly legitimate way in which ...."

"Mr. Speaker, if the Amendment..."

"Okay. Let's have order. Now, Representative Currie."

"The Amendment is clearly deficient, that I think it's inappropriate for anybody to ask this House to consider an Amendment that is technically in error and deficient and I would ask the Chair, please so to rule. We should not be considering this Amendment at this time and I would ask you 146  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 please to rule it out of order."

"We have just asked the Clerk to give us the Amendment so we can examine it. Representative Currie? Representative Currie, would you come up here? Representative Vinson, perhaps you had better too. Yes, Representative Vinson."

"Why don't we take this out of the record for a few minutes and move on with other people's legislation while we examine this issue?"

"Well, that would be agreeable with the Chair. I don't know if the Sponsor of the Bill would agree to that. Predictably she said no.. Representative Vinson, why don't you come up here also? If the House would be at ease for a few minutes...Representative Catania, certainly, would you come up here too, please? The Gentleman from DeWitt, Representative Vinson."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will withraw Amendments 9, 10 and 11 and any others that might be associated with my name."

"The Gentleman withraws Amendments #9, 10 and 11. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 113, Representative Kosinski. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 113, a Bill for an Act to amend the Code of Criminal Procedure and the Unified Code of Corrections. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions..."

"Was adopted on the floor previously. Amendment #2 was withdrawn."

"Are there further Amendments?"

"Motion to ..." 147  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Amendment #1 was adopted previously. There is a Motion relative to Amendment #1. Read the Motion, Mr. Clerk."

"I move to table Amendment #1 to House Bill 113, which was adopted by voice vote. Representative Stuffle."

"The Gentleman from Coles, Representative Stuffle."

"Yes, I filed this Motion in writing on Thursday and I would move pursuant to Rule 64-D to table Amendment #1 which was adopted by a voice vote on the floor of this House. I so move."

"The question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be tabled?' All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'; opposed 'nay'. And the 'ayes' have it. And Amendment #1 is tabled. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Margaret Smith, amends House Bill 113 as amended."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Smith..."

"Thank..."

"Just a minute please. For what purpose does the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Cullerton, arise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I renew my questioning the germaneness of this Amendment."

"The Gentleman questions the germaneness of the Amendment. Please stand at ease. The ruling is that the Amendment is germane. The Lady from Cook, Representative Smith."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This Amendment is not a mandate. But it would simply add another factor for consideration at the time of the sentences to the seven considerations that are already in the law, that victims who are over 60 years of age would be considered and I have received from across the state encouragement that we support this Bill, because 148  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. crime is on the upgrade. I'm asking, Mr. Speaker and those of us here, in the House, that you give me a favorable vote on this Amendment."

"The Lady moves the adoption of Amendment #3. Is there any discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #3 be adopted?' All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'; opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #3 is adopted. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. Third Reading, yes. House Bill 114, Representative Currie. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 114, a Bill for an Act to amend the Election Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendments #1 and 2 were adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions relative to Amendments #1 and 2?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"No Floor Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 128, Representative McGrew. Out of the record. House Bill 144, Representative Zwick. Is the Lady on the floor? Out of the record. House Bill 155, Representative Stearney? Out of the record. House Bill 228, Representative Schuneman. Out of the record. House Bill 239, Representative Davis. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 239, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Davis, amends House Bill 239 on page six and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Will, Representative Davis." 149  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move to withdraw Amendment #1."

"The Gentleman withdraws Amendment #1. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Davis, amends House Bill 239 on page three and so forth."

"The Gentleman from Will, Representative Davis."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #2 addresses the concerns that the Committee Members in Judiciary II had regarding House Bill 239. And what it does essentially is to remove some language relating to psychological torture of children. Puts a severability clause in the Act in the event that this portion would be found unconstitutional it would not jeopardize the Death Penalty Act of 1977 and Section 2 makes an effective date of 1, July 1982 at which time the Supreme Court will have had a chance to rule on the Death Penalty Act of 1977. Representative Kosinski joins me in this effort. And as suggested..his language is suggested in this Amendment. And I wholeheartedly concur."

"Is there any discussion? The question is, 'Shall Amendment #2 be adopted?' All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'; opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Are there any further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 240, Representative Davis? 240, Representative Davis?"

"I beg your pardon, Sir?"

"House Bill 240?"

"Yes."

"Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 240, a Bill for an Act to amend the Regional Transportation Authority Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments." 150  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Ebbesen, amends House Bill 240 on page one, line one and so forth."

"The Gentleman from DeKalb, Representative Ebbesen."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This Amendment #1 to House Bill 240 is really one that addresses itself to a problem up in the Regional Transportation Authority District and what it provides for is that since the RTA did not see fit to raise the farebox at the last time, I thought maybe it might advisable for this House and hopefully the Senate to address itself to raising the revenue up there at the farebox to help that situation as far as moving the people around in that geographical area, which is definitely a necessity. But the Bill itself, the Amendment, says that the authority shall cause to be imposed as a user fee upon the bus fares of public transportation services provided by the authority and by every transportation agency which has entered into any kind of a purchase of service agreement or has received a grant from the authority a 75% increase in the amount of such fare. Now the reason that I went to the 75% is the fact that according to our staff that each nickel increase will generate two million dollars a month and this will ...this Amendment if adopted would generate 24 million dollars a month and address itself to a problem that is certainly out there. And I'm sure that there are people on this floor who wish to see the issue of transportation, a road program and the RTA separated, and this is an excellent opportunity to provide you with that opportunity to vote affirmatively. And I would be glad to respond to any questions and if there are none, why I would certainly entertain a favorable Roll Call." 151  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Getty."

"Would the Gentleman yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Representative Ebbesen, this is your bus fare increase Bill, isn't that right?"

"The Amendment calls for a bus fare on all rails and whatever, whatever the service contracts, grants, would include all methods of transportation in the RTA area."

"And you had another Bill previously to do the same thing, is that correct?"

"I had an Amendment that got 70 votes that was similar to this, yes."

"Okay. And what would the effect of this be on the cost of fares?"

"Well, whatever they are now. I'm assuming that if we take the, I think it's an 80¢ cost for bus fare at this point in time, plus I think there's a ten percent transfer...10 cent transfer. But everything would be relative. The...It would now take the 80¢ one way bus fare to, I think, $1.40 and it's been my contention that; as I indicated, each nickel increase would generate two million. This Amendment, if adopted, would generate 24 million dollars a month throughout the...related to all methods of travel. The idea being that...I don't think there's anybody, especially in the downstate area, that can back their automobile out of the garage, out of the driveway and go to work when you consider depreciation, the cost of gasoline, the insurance, what have you, for $1.40. Two dollars and eighty cents round trip, you know, I think it's a steal at that cost. And that's the reason and the rationale behind this Amendment."

"Do you represent any part of the RTA District?"

"I do not at this time." 152  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Uh-huh. And, do you represent any downstate Transit District?"

"Yes. There's one in DeKalb.."

"What's the bus fare in DeKalb?"

"Well, it's a university bus system. It's paid for out of the fees of the students."

"I see. And, so what is the fare?"

"I have no idea."

"Is it $1.40?"

"Could very well be. Maybe it doesn't cost as much to operate in those areas. I don't know."

"Well, as a matter of fact, isn't it..."

"...I might respond by saying that students are paying not 40%, or 50%. They're paying 100% of what it costs to operate."

"Isn't it a fact that the highest bus fares in the State of Illinois are in the Chicago metropolitan area?"

"I'm sorry. There was so much..."

"As a matter of fact, the highest bus fares already are in the Chicago metropolitan area."

"Well, but they seem to be inadequate. That's my whole purpose of my Amendment, that they are inadequate and I think that since anything is inadequate and you're operating a business, if the revenue coming in is not sufficient to operate, then certainly you ought to address the problem in a businesslike manner which would mean go to the farebox and ask the people in the form of a users fee to take care of that deficit."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, I am delighted to see the Representative from outside of the RTA District make such constructive recommendations, especially in view of the fact that his bus systems are so much less expensive to his constituents. I would suggest that this deserves a 153  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 "no' vote."

"The Gentleman from Will, Representative Davis."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it's only proper that I make the Sponsor's response to this Amendment. I want to make it clear that I have a very good Bill. I had a good Bill that got out of Committee and Representative Ebbesen approached me with this Amendment and with the one that's going to follow it, which is rather a startler too, and I suggested to him that if it was the will of the General Assembly they be attached to this Bill, that's fine. The Sponsor is officially neutral. I think the Bill in its pristine form unamended, is a good Bill. But that's the will of the General Assembly."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bowman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A Parliamentary point..."

"State your point."

"I would like to call the Chair's attention to the fact that Amendment #1 amends the title of the Bill and as such, I will exercise my perogative under the rules of the House to request that the Chair return, if this Amendment, that the Chair return the Bill to the Order of Second Reading, First Legislative Day, if the Amendment is adopted."

"I think your point is well taken. Can you quote the rule?"

"There's a rule, Mr. Speaker. It's in there."

"Any rule is appropriate at an appropriate time, Representative Bowman. The Gentleman from Macon, Representative Tate."

"Mr. Chairman (sic), Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I rise in support of the Amendment and in reference to several points that were made in the debate from some of the opponents, I think it's noteworthy for all Members that 154  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. represent any Mass Transit District that when we compare the RTA or the CTA to downstate mass transit systems we have to make the analogy and let's be fair about it. Let's compare apples to apples. And I'm sure that Chairman Hill or Chairman Barnes would concede the point that in their higher density areas that their performance at the farebox and their...relative to their operating costs are substantially higher. And in lower population centers which most of us from downstate that represent a mass transit service, we're not making that fair comparison in a city of 100,000 compared to a city of three and a half million. And I would also suggest to the opponents of this Bill that there were many...that there were several Amendments offered to the transportation package back in March that proposed this same type of Amendment to downstate operators and wherever it will be, Quincy, Decatur, Bloomington, Rockford, or wherever we want to talk about. I think what the Sponsor is attempting to do..."

"Representative Tate, if you will forgive me..Representative Matijevich, for what purpose do you arise?"

"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I'd like to violate the rule like all of the rest of us do by introducing the Mother of God School in Waukegan.. They have with them 'Joanne Purpich and MaryAnn Jerap'. And I'd like to have Virginia Frederick and Dave Barkhausen, we represent them.. We're going to go in the gallery and say hello to them. They're right up here."

"Yes, you're absolutely right. It's against the rules. Welcome, Representative Tate."

"As I was saying, what I think the Sponsor is attempting to do, very successfully in this Amendment, is that the people who use the service should pay for the service. And I 155  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. don't care whether we're talking about the RTA or a downstate municipality like Decatur in my District. I think that all of us have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that the money, the gravy train from Washington, has stopped and that people utilizing the services are going to have to pay for the service. I encourage a 'yes' vote on this Amendment."

"The Gentleman from Adams, Representative McClain."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I'd like to speak to the Amendment, if I could, Mr. Speaker?"

"Proceed."

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, this Amendment has some substantial impacts. I'd like to talk to all of us across the State of Illinois. Right now the Regional Transportation Authority has an average farebox reliance of 46.6%. The average farebox reliance for downstate Transit Districts is somewhere around 20%. So in other words what we're doing here and mandating by law, a certain percentage really through this Amendment, a farebox reliance for the Regional Transportation Authority. Ladies and Gentleman, especially for the rest of the 96 counties, sooner or later those six counties are going to turn on on us. They're going to turn around and they're going to start looking at the 96 counties and realize what we're charging our farebox reliance. They're going to start looking at what we get from UMPTA. They're going to look what at our reliances are with state subsidies or our reliance with property taxes. I think that when you start getting the habit of mandating a certain percentage of farebox reliance by state, no matter where you are in the state, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we mandate an 156  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 increase of 50 percent or more, which is what this Amendment in essence would do, for the Regional Transportation Authority, and they turn back on us and do the same thing for Peoria and Quincy and Decatur, Champaign-Urbana, it'll put every system in downstate Illinois in bankruptcy. Right now, 14 of the 18 Transit Districts in downstate Illinois are in deficit financing. They're in deficit financing and they still have a farebox reliance of around 20 percent. So what happens in those municipally owned transit systems is the city takes out of their property taxes to pay for the deficit. And we get a subsidy from the State of Illinois. The RTA does not. I think that especially in those areas, especially if you have commuter rail reliance, your commuter rails have about 47 percent farebox reliance. This kind of increase will have a substantial impact on especially the CTA commuter rail. The suburban bus lines have just around 30 percent farebox reliance. I don't want to go through too many figures, but this has an awesome impact for all the systems in the State of Illinois and for those of us who are downstate, I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander. This kind of an Amendment, if it's ever turned back on downstate Districts, will bankrupt all 18 downstate Transit Districts."

"The Gentleman from St. Clair, Representative Flinn."

"Mr. Speaker, I move the previous question."

"The Gentleman has moved the previous question. The question is, 'Shall the main question be put?' All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'; opposed 'no'. The Motion prevails. Representative Ebbesen to close."

"Well, yes, I think that this has been adequately discussed, not just today on this Amendment, but about a 157  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 month ago on this subject., I think that you all understand the thrust of this. It's a users fee and I'd like to respond to Representative McClain talking about downstate Districts. If there's inequity and you say there's 45.6 percentage at the farebox versus 20 percent, well that's inequity. And if this turns things around, makes it a little worse, then it makes it worse. But I haven't heard this type of a problem coming from -not that it doesn't exist- coming from downstate Transit Authority Districts, but there certainly is a problem in the major metropolitan area and in the RTA District and the thrust of this is to, as a users fee, and I repeat to take that based on an 80¢ bus fare to $1.40, $2.80 round trip and everything else proportioned out, a flat 75% increase which will generate 22 million dollars a month, a month, mind you, and certainly will go along way towards resolving the financial crunch they've got up there contributed by the people who are using the transportation. And I would certainly appreciate a favorable consideration of this Amendment."

"The question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be adopted?' All those in favor will indicate by voting 'aye'; those opposed by voting 'no'. Representative...The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Birkinbine, to explain your vote."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. There's been some misunderstanding on this Bill. I don't have any argument with setting a certain percentage on the farebox that people should pay, but this is just a flat 75% increase across the board. Now the Northwestern Railroad, which runs through my District, the people who ride that railroad are already paying better than 70% of the cost of that service. You may be upset with the fact that the CTA is only paying about 48% out of its farebox 158  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. for the service, but there are people in that RTA region who are paying better than 70% of the service. If you go ahead and adopt an Amendment such as this you're asking them to pay better than 100% of the cost of that service and it just does not make sense."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Emil Jones, to explain your vote."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. The previous speaker just took the words right out of my mouth because I represent a suburban as well as a Chicago District. And the people in my District who use the commuter lines will have to pay an exorbitant fare just to get to work in the city of Chicago. So, this is a very bad Amendment and my colleagues in the suburbs should join with me and defeat this bad Amendment."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Ewell:"

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen, I don't want to belabor the point because most of the points have been made. But I should like to point out to my colleagues from the other counties that one day, one day, the city of Chicago, the County of Cook and DuPage County might get together. Once that happens, woe be unto you and your transit systems. Woe be unto you in terms of the exorbitant amounts of money that you take out of the Agricultural Premium Fund without a return. Woe be unto you for the massive amounts of sales tax that are taken disproportionately from the six county area. Woe be unto you as to the income tax that is taken disproportionately from the six county area. I say to you that it will not last for all times, that you can constantly think of yourselves as provincial people without thinking of the rest of the state. And indeed, it is a mistake to cast this kind of dispersions on the water for they shall float back to haunt you." 159  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this Motion there are 53 voting 'aye', 77 voting 'no', 1 voting 'present' and the Gentleman's Motion is lost. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Ebbesen..."

"The Gentleman from DeKalb, Representative Ebbesen."

"Mr. Speaker, I would like to withdraw Amendment #2."

"The Gentleman withdraws Amendment #2. Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 253, Representative Yourell? Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 253, a Bill for an Act to amend an Act in relationship to state revenue sharing with local governmental entities. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendments #1, 3 and 4...#1 was adopted in Committee. Amendment #2 is withdrawn. Amendment #3 and 4 were adopted previously."

"Are there any Motions relative to Amendments #1, 3 or 4?"

"Motion, I move to table Amendment #3 to House Bill 253, Representative Davis."

"The Gentleman from Will, Representative Davis, on the Motion."

"Mr. Speaker, I move to withdraw or table, whatever the appropriate Motion is for Amendment #3."

"The Gentleman withdraws his Motion (sic). Did I misunderstand, Representative Davis? Did you withdraw your Motion?"

"No, Sir. Is Amendment #3 on the Bill?"

"Yes." 160  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"In that case, I move to table Amendment #3."

"Your Motion is to table Amendment #3."

"That's correct."

"And that's the Motion the Clerk read."

"Yes, Sir."

"Representative Davis on the Motion. Representative Davis."

"I'm sorry, Sir. I move to table Amendment #3 which is in conflict with a further Amendment #4."

"Representative Yourell."

"That's correct. There were technical difficulties with Amendment #3. We made the corrections in Amendment #4. That has been adopted and Amendment #3 should be withdrawn with the wishes of the Sponsor.."

"All right. The Motion is to table Amendment #3. All those in favor will indicate by saying 'aye'; all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it. And Amendment #3 is tabled. Now, #4 has been adopted. Are there...Representative Yourell."

"Mr. Speaker, I'd like the attention of Representative Pullen who requested a Fiscal Note to this Bill. I just talked to the Department of Revenue and I requested the Fiscal Note last week and they have just assured me that it's on the way over here and there is no fiscal impact with House Bill 253 as it relates to any cost to the State of Illinois. So, if Representative Pullen would accept that, I'd like to move the Bill to Third Reading."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Pullen. Representative Pullen, Representative Yourell has stated that the Fiscal Note is on its way. It will state that there is no fiscal impact in the Bill and as I understand it it's his request that you withdraw your request for the Fiscal Note. Since there is no response we'll have to wait 161  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 for the Fiscal Note, Representative Yourell."

"There has been filed, Mr. Speaker, a State Mandates Act Fiscal Note and the Department of Revenue has indicated that in their judgment, that that is sufficient. But if the Sponsor of the Motion requesting a Fiscal Note wants to hold the Bill, fine. I have no objection. It's on its way. I just want assurance that we'll get back to it if possible when it gets here because they said it's on its way by messenger."

"Representative Yourell, you could put the question before the House that the need for the Fiscal Note is not required and I think 89 votes could sustain you in that action."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ask leave now and move that the House accept my explanation of the status of the Fiscal Note and ask for leave to move the Bill to Third Reading."

"You've heard the Motion. All those in favor of Representative Yourell's Motion will indicate by voting 'aye'; those opposed by voting 'no'. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Conti."

"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, we're honored here today to have 29 students from 13 countries that are with the Rotary Club of Downer's Grove. They're sitting up here on the left. Let's give them a hand and welcome them."

"Welcome to Illinois. On this question there are 122 voting 'aye', 6 voting 'no', and the Gentleman's Motion prevails. Are there further Motions or further Amendments?"

"No further Motions nor Amendments."

"Third Reading. Speaker Ryan in the Chair."

"We can either break at two o'clock or work straight through till seven. What's your pleasure? All in 162  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 favor of seven o'clock say 'aye'. House Bill 282, Representative Stuffle."

"House Bill 282, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Insurance Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Schuneman, amends House Bill 282 on page one, line..."

"Representative Schuneman on Amendment #1."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Amendments #1 through number 12 are technically incorrect and I would like to withdraw those Amendments. I'd like to withdraw Amendments #1 through 12."

"The Gentleman withdraws Amendments 1 through 12. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #13, Schuneman, amends House Bill ...."

"Representative Schuneman on Amendment #13."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, it's now time for that great moment in the Session of each Legislature when we take up the battle of automobile windshield losses. Representative Stuffle has the great pleasure this year to have this wonderful Bill that's been around the Legislature since Hector was a pup. And what his Bill seeks to do is to deny you and me the right to have a deductible on automobile windshield repairs on our insurance. And, since the presentation of that Bill in Committee was based entirely on the strength of the argument that this is a Bill which is designed for safety only. I've accepted that premise and therefore, I'm going to offer some Amendments, Mr. Speaker, that are going to strengthen this Bill and we're going to make the automobile a very safe mechanism for everybody to drive on the 163  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND. GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 highways of the State of Illinois. The Bill will no longer, after you accept my Amendments, the Bill will no longer apply only to the automobile windshields which happens to be the proposal of the glass industry in Illinois, but it will also apply to those other parts of an automobile which have to do with safety. Now, my first Amendment which is number 13 says that your automobile insurance company can no longer sell you insurance and you can no longer buy insurance that would have a deductible apply to any of the replacement parts for damaged steering mechanisms on an automobile. So an insurance company could not put a deductible on that part of your insurance policy and I offer Amendment #13."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Stuffle."

"Yes. I'd attempted to rise on a point of order to ask the Gentleman to speak to the Amendments as opposed to the Bill, but he did both. Let me proceed on the Amendments. I think if you listen to Representative Schuneman's arguments on Amendment #13, and I'm sure he'll make the same arguments on the rest of these Amendments, you realize that he's not trying to strengthen my Bill. He's trying to kill my Bill. He does, indeed, have a very strong feeling coming from where he does with regard to this Bill. But I suggest he ought to make those arguments on Third Reading. Instead he made them on these Amendments. Let me point out on Amendment 13 and subsequent Amendments that there is no data to sustain these Amendments. He has no data from the Department of Insurance because they collect no data on this particular thing as to the type of Amendments he proposes. He's attempting only to kill this Bill, not to deal with it on its merits and not in any way to strengthen the Bill. His attempt is to gut the Bill and he knows that and I know that and I think you can tell by his 164  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 tongue-in-cheek approach that he believes that too. Each of the Amendments, #13 to begin with, deals with mechanical elements, mechanical component parts to the car, not with what the Bill deals with. The Bill deals with a nonmechanical noticeable item that's either repaired or not repaired, either broken or not broken, either there or not there, that the person can see. We presented arguments. We presented data. We presented facts based upon experience to put this Bill together. None has been presented today for this particular Amendment and I suggest none can be on the other Amendments. It's merely an attempt to gut the Bill as is each of the succeeding and subsequent Amendments. For those reasons I would urge that you vote 'no' and let this Bill be heard on its merits on Third Reading. I don't think that the fact that it's been introduced before makes it any different than any other Bill that's been introduced on this House floor since Hector was a pup or otherwise. The difference is the Bill is not still in Committee as in most past Sessions, but here for our consideration. And I hope we'll give it consideration on its merits or lack thereof based upon the opinions and the arguments and the data presented. And for that reason I would urge the Members to keep this Bill intact and as the Sponsor I would urge a 'no' vote on Representative Schuneman's Amendment 13 and each and all of his subsequent Amendments."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Leverenz."

"Could the Sponsor of the Amendment yield for a couple of questions?"

"He indicates he will."

"One, how will this impact on you as an insurance broker?" 165  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Representative Schuneman."

"Well, it will impact on me, Representative, a lot like you; like it will on you as an insurance buyer. It would deny us the right to save premium on automobile insurance and in that way, it will impact upon me. If you're talking about my commissions as an insurance agent, then there should be less premiums so I guess I'd make less money. But that has nothing to do with where I'm coming from."

"How would this impact then on me as an insurance buyer?"

"It would raise your insurance, Representative."

"Well, how would then that provide you with less commission as a broker?"

"Well, because I think..."

"..If it raises my rates.."

"Because I think insurance companies would quit writing some of this coverage."

"Well, that's hypothetical. You have indicated that it's going to raise my rates. Therefore, if your percentage is not changed, you end up making more money."

"Well, but Representative, I think you're smart enough not to buy the high premium. I'm assuming that you are and I think you are."

"Well, I would assume that something close to price fixing might enter the situation and everybody would raise their rates equal percent. Would you agree?"

"I don't know about that. We don't have rate regulation on this kind of business in Illinois so I'm assuming that what would happen is that the market might dry up."

"Mr. Speaker, to the Amendment."

"Proceed." 166  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"It is clear that the Amendment is to the benefit of the insurance seller, the industry, the insurance brokers. It is clear that the Amendment is against the consumer and you and I, as a buyer. I don't know which conflict to serve. Thank you."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Schuneman to close."

"Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would only say in closing that I think that if you subscribe to the idea that is being suggested by this Bill that you should subscribe to the Amendment and I would suggest to Representative Stuffle that we can offer just as much factual information from the companies that manufacture steering mechanisms for cars for support of this Amendment as he did from the glass companies for the Bill. So I would suggest a 'yes' vote on this Amendment."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #13 to House Bill 282. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; all opposed by saying 'no'. The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #13. All in favor will signify by voting 'aye'; all opposed by voting 'no'. Representative O'Brien, one minute to explain your vote."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, I sit on the Insurance Committee where this Bill came from and I can tell you, as the Sponsor of the Amendment also sits on the Committee, none of the Amendments appear to be serious and I think it's kind of a frivolous attempt on the part of the Sponsor of these Amendments to scuttle a Bill whose time has come. There was no testimony or comment from the individual who is sponsoring these Amendments when the Bill passed out of the Committee and it passed out rather handily out of the Committee. And I see that the Amendment does not have enough votes. Rightfully so. Thank you." 167  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 68 voting 'aye', 78 voting 'no', and none voting 'present'. And the Gentleman's Motion fails. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #14, Schuneman, amends House Bill 282 as amended."

"Representative Schuneman on Amendment #14."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. In response to one of the other comments that were made, this Bill passed out of Committee on an eleven to five vote. This Bill, like some others that you and I knew about, was very well greased in Committee, but I don't think we ought to grease here on the House floor. Amendment #14 would say that insurance companies could not write insurance for you and put any kind of a deductible on brakes or mechanisms used for the purpose of stopping or slowing an automobile. That was left out of the Representative Stuffle's Bill and I think that if we're really looking for safety in Illinois, that we ought to protect the brakes on every automobile and we shouldn't just look at the glass and the glass industry and their interests. We ought to be concerned about other interests. So, I suggest that Amendment #14 would be a wonderful addition to the Bill."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Stuffle."

"Yes, I won't belabor the time of the House. Simply to say that the same arguments apply to this Amendment because of its mechanical nature and I think its frivolous nature as well, that applied to the first Amendment. I would ask for a 'no' vote and merely suggest, Representative Schuneman, that some Bills are greased and some Bills come out on their merits and I think it's a matter of opinion what happened to this one. I'd ask for a 'no' vote."

"Any further discussion? The Lady from Cook, 168  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.. Representative Alexander."

"Mr. Speaker, according to my copies of Amendment 13 and 14 they are identical. I'd like to address the Sponsor of these Amendments and see if they're misnumbered in some fashion."

"Representative Leverenz."

"Mr. Speaker, in all due respect I think the previous speaker did not receive questions...er..answers to her questions."

"Representative Alexander, were you ....completed?"

"According to the copies of Amendments 13 and 14 that I have on my desk, they are identical. I'm wondering whether they are misnumbered or are we going into a state of confusion as to what we're talking about at this point?"

"Representative Schuneman."

"Well, I'm not sure which Amendments the Lady has, Mr. Speaker. But my copy of the Amendments indicate that Amendment 13 applies to steering mechanisms and 14 applies to brakes."

"Mine apply...Mr. Speaker, my 14 reads identical to 13."

"Well, Representative Alexander, the copies that are shown here, that are filed with the Clerk, are definitely as Representative Schuneman represented them. Well.."

"Mr. Speaker..."

"...These Amendments been printed and distributed, Mr. Clerk?"

"Mr. Speaker?"

"Representative Schuneman."

"Rather than take the time of the House on this nothing issue, I will withraw Amendment 14 if that will solve your problem." 169  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"The Gentleman withdraws Amendment #14. Further Amendments?"

"Now, Mr. Speaker...Oh, excuse me."

"Floor Amendment #15, Schuneman, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Schuneman on Amendment #15."

"Mr. Speaker, I would ask leave to consider Amendments 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 on one Roll Call to save the time of the House."

"Fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen and nineteen..."

"Eighteen and nineteen..Yes."

"Have those Amendments been printed and distributed?"

"I have my copy, Sir."

"Amendments have been printed and distributed."

"The Gentleman asks leave to have Amendments 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 to House Bill 282 heard on one Roll Call. Are there objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. Proceed, Representative Schuneman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #15 simply says that an insurance company could not offer a policy in Illinois that would have a deductible on any damage that would apply to the repair or replacement of tires. Amendment 16 says that the insurance company could not offer a deductible on any policy that would apply to the repair or replacement of headlights or tail lights. Seventeen says that they couldn't offer a deductible on any policy that would apply to the repair or replacement of car doors. Now certainly it's important to have a good door on your car so it doesn't fall off when you're driving. Amendment 18 applies to all of the above, Mr. Speaker, all of those parts on the car that are important to have 170  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. repaired and Amendment #19 simply says if you drive a car in Illinois with a broken windshield, by gosh, you're going to be subject to a class 4 felony. We had that originally as a class x felony and we decided that was a little too strong and therefore, we changed it. The point of all this, Mr. Speaker, is that ..to bring the attention of the House to this Bill that would seek to, at the benefit of one industry in Illinois, to deny all of the insurance buyers of the state the possibility and the ability to save a little premium on your automobile insurance. And I would offer these Amendments as good government Amendments."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Stuffle."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker and Members, it seems to me that ...It almost seems to me that this is almost laughable as I talk to my seatmate here. But it's a deliberate attempt to gut the Bill as I indicated. He should have put all of these together to start with. I'm glad at least he took them all on the same Roll Call. It seems interesting that Representative Schuneman wants to do so much to help me on my Bill that he fought so hard to kill in the Committee and he's fought so hard to kill every year. It's also interesting if he considers all these things ought to be nondeductibles, even though they're all mechanical, excluding my Bill's provisions for windshields, that he only concerns himself with making it a class 4 felony for not having a windshield. I would think he would want to have a death penalty for that the way he's put these together, make all the others felonies for having flat tires, bad door locks and so forth. You can vote for this. You can vote for anything. I'd ask for a 'no' vote."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Kulas."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, we 171  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 know what's going on here. This is a big charade being played. We know that these Amendments are dilatory. They're laughable. And I might not support Representative Stuffle's Bill on Third Reading, but I think he should have his Bill in the posture that he wants it and I hope that you should all give these Amendments a resounding 'no' vote."

"Representative Leverenz, do you seek recognition?"

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. A few questions of the Sponsor?"

"He indicates that he will yield."

"How will the Amendments that you offer now in lump have an impact on an insurance broker?"

"Well, you keep coming back to that question, Representative, and I guess the only thing I could tell you is that it would probably make me so rich that I could give up my life here in the General Assembly and leave and so, if that adds anything to the substance of the Amendment I suggest you vote for it and ..."

"How about the consumer?"

"The consumer? Well, I think it would be a rip-off of the consumer and I think the Bill is a rip-off of the consumers. But the Amendment is right in line with the strategy of the Bill."

"With the Amendments, the consumers now are going to pay probably substantially more and the commissions will remain the same and everyone then will probably not be able to get insurance in the state."

"Well, I really have not gone into it in that great depth, Representative. I don't know that I could respond to that question really."

"I thank you. I just want to help serve my best interests..." 172  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Is there any further questions? The Gentleman from Coles, Representative Stuffle, to close."

"They are my Amendments..."

"Pardon me. Pardon me. Representative Schuneman to close."

"Stuffle hasn't joined me yet in these Amendments I don't think, although he has offered to work with me on death penalty and other such things that we could add to this Bill. But I'd just ask that you vote your conscience on these Amendments, Mr. Speaker."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendments 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 to House Bill 282. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it...or the 'nos' have it and the Amendments fail. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Before I move it to Third Reading...Third Reading on House Bill 282. Representative Birkinbine, do you seek recognition?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For a momentary violation of the rules, we have with us the Washburn School of Winnetka up in the balcony to my side here represented by Representative Katz, Representative Hallstrom and myself."

"Welcome. House Bill 293, Representative Satterthwaite."

"House Bill 293, a Bill for an Act relating to the increase in the Drivers Education Fund. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Satterthwaite, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Satterthwaite on Amendment #1."

"Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, this 173  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Amendment was one that was agreed upon in Committee before the Bill was released from Committee. I think it now is in a form that the Committee Members would all agree to and one that they Secretary of State is happy to support and I move for its adoption."

"Is there any discussion? The Lady moves for the adoption of Amendment #1. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #2, Deuster, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Deuster on Amendment #2."

"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, this is a very important Bill and I think it's a very important Amendment too. We are dealing with the subject of mandate. We are dealing with the subject of a mandate on our local schools, and as we know, our local schools and our local governments have been complaining that these mandates cost money and we have not been giving them the money. If there is any educational mandate that we all know costs a lot of money, it is the Drivers Education Mandate. For example, with road training we know that the instructor student ratio is normally about one to three. It's one of the most expensive courses to offer. One of the high schools in my district recently purchased some automobiles because the automobile industry is in so much trouble, no longer are you able to get free courtesy cars. So our schools are pleading for some help. There are two ways that we can help them. We can either tax the people more to get more money to pay for this mandate or we can give our local schools some freedom and some financial flexibility to decide whether this particular mandate is a high priority. The basic Bill offered by Representative Satterthwaite follows the first course which is to tax the people more by 174  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 increasing the drivers license fee. Amendment #2, which I am offering, follows the other course of giving the local schools some freedom. Amendment #2 would make the road training aspect of the drivers education permissive or optional. I should point out that in other states in the United States the low priority and high expense aspect of drivers education has been recognized. In Florida, I believe, they have no mandate. In Arizona, they have no mandate for the road training. In California, the Governor is now proposing that the state give no money to the local schools for drivers ed. I think that Amendment #2 to House Bill 293 which will allow our local schools all over Illinois to decide whether or not they wish to continue to offer the road training is a responsible Amendment that is consistent with the philosophy that's sweeping this country and that is, get the Federal Government off our back, get the State Government off our back and let us decide at the local level what we want to do. There is no mandate for reading, writing, and arithmetic but there is for drivers ed. I don't think drivers ed. is going to suffer but I think it ought to be treated by our locally elected school board officials the same way they treat other subjects. They ought to decide, is this something we can afford. Is this something that the people in our community, whether it be in southrn Illinois or northern Illinois, are clammering for and insisting for? Is this something that the State Government in Springfield or the Federal Government at Washington should tell us we must have whether or not we can afford it? I would be happy to answer any questions you might have on this Amendment. I would add this, that I recall that the State Board of Elections has voted to recommend that road training be made optional or permissive as I do in this Amendment. I would urge your favorable 175  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 consideration and support for Amendment #2."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Bond, Representative Slape."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Representative Deuster, do I understand your Amendment correct, by this Amendment you're removing the mandate to local schools to provide behind the wheel training?"

"That's correct. Not for classroom instruction, just for out on the road, behind the wheel training."

"In your personal opinion, why do we have behind the road training?"

"We have behind the wheel training and drivers education generally because at a time when we were rolling in dough and we had all kinds of money, we mothers and fathers decided that where as you and I probably learned how to drive because your dad or mother took you out on the road, that we were living in an age where we would be more happy to reach in our pocket, pay some tax money to the school and let the school do it. But we aren't in that prosperous age anymore. But that is the reason that we had it. It was one of these things that we shifted from the family to the school."

"And there's no free lunch?"

"There's no free automobiles. There's no free instructors who work for nothing and so we found out it's cost an awful lot and we ought to allow our local schools to decide whether they want to continue that or not."

"Would you happen to know if there are any statistics to indicate that since behind the wheel training has been given in public education if the quality or driving ability of teenagers' has risen under this program?"

"I think you probably received as all Members have 176  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 statistics and information from various sources indicating that there's confusion. There's really no clear cut evidence that the young people who take drivers ed. are doing better. I happen to believe in education and I happen to believe that taking any kind of a course where students are consciensous and pay attention and have good instructors that any kind of education helps. However, I must say that the statistics brought to my attention do not confirm that drivers ed. has improved the driving record of the young people. There's confusion there as statisticians always seem to bring us."

"Well, as Sponsor of this Amendment apparently then your opinion is that it it hasn't been effective in giving us a uniform driving public."

"No, not at all. I believe that we are Legislators and we believe in local government. The people in our communities elect a school board and I think the school boards and the school administrators will sit down and decide if they have to cut some corners somewhere, the school where my wife is teaching is closing this year. We're having schools closing all over the place. If there's anything we can do to help them order their priorities and determine what they really want to fund and what they can't fund and cut the least desirable. I think all of the parents would rather have the children coming out of school knowing how to read and to fill out an employment application and perhaps as to driving, it's something they can work on and go out on a Saturday and take their children... sons or daughters and teach them how to drive or enroll them in a school."

"You're wife's school's closing because they give driver ed.?"

"No." 177  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"It's probably closing because enrollment's down, is it? Probably because enrollment's down."

"What I'm saying... I'm saying schools are having trouble and financial difficulties and we're hearing from them."

"But I imagine isn't their school closing because of enrollment's probably down in the district, right? They don't need the school any longer?"

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Hudson."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. It's always refreshing when one of our colleagues rises and the sum total of his words make good common sense. I rise today in support of Representative Deuster's Amendment. I feel that it does make good common sense. I have gone to many meetings back in my district where school people are represented, school boards and or teachers and there's one thing that comes through plain and clear and that is that we here in the General Assembly have simply mandated too many things upon our local school systems. Then I have asked them what, if you had your choice, what would you not have mandated? Drivers education is one of those things that has come up time and time again as a possibility, and it seems to me that what Representative Deuster is doing is giving us an opportunity here in his Amendment to give these school districts an option as to whether to have this program or not. If they choose not to exercise the option, they have reduced the mandates that we have placed upon the school systems by at least one. This seems to be what they are crying for. They are saying, 'Let us up. We've had enough. Let us out. We're paying too much.' Representative Deuster is giving you a chance today through his Amendment to do just that. And I believe 178  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. to do it without endangering students. I think that their drivers ed. can be obtained in other ways, and I think he has here an excellent idea and I would urge support of his Amendment."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Bullock."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was wondering if Representative Deuster could answer a couple of questions. Will he yield for two questions?"

"He indicates he will."

"First of all, Representative Deuster, what is the anticipated cost savings to the State of Illinois for demandating behind the wheel instruction?"

"Representative Bullock, if we give the local schools the freedom, the option to decide for themselves there's no way that you nor I can predict how many are going to elect that option."

"Mr. Deuster, if you just give me a specific figure..."

"Representative Bullock, that's a characteristic of freedom. It could be millions of dollars that we save, but it depends on the extent to which the local schools would look at this, study it, and decide whether or not to elect to opt not to provide this course."

"Representative, I respectfully disagree with you. We're only expending at present in excess of 112,000 dollars for this behind the wheel instruction. I don't know how in your wildest imagination you could tell me it's going to be millions of dollars, but perhaps your imagination is a bit larger than mine. Secondly, my concern, Representative Deuster, is that whatever savings might accrue to the state, and I submit to you it's minimal if not nill, that we will see a ... increase in human misery, property damage and other types of loss as a result of ill prepared and ill trained drivers on our streets and 179  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981. highways. Could you give me, at this point, any indication, Representative Deuster, as to what insurance premiums, what would be the affect on insurance premiums if these teenage individuals did not have this type of training? Would you anticipate any change in insurance premiums for these drivers?"

"If the young people get a drivers license, they have to satisfy the examiner that they know how to drive a car and it's up to the insurance companies to decide what recognition they would want to give to students who have licenses at the younger age and who have either taken or not taken a school course. They would still be graduates of the classroom instruction which is still left on as a mandate. It's not possible to calculate what change, in my opinion Representative Bullock, that would occur."

"Thank you, Representative Deuster. Mr. Speaker, briefly to the Bill, unfortunately, my good friend, Representative Deuster, has pulled a Bill or an Amendment out of the hat that I don't think is well researched and certainly is deficient in many respects and I'm sure he understands that and more appropriately might choose to withraw the Amendment at the appropriate time. In the event that he doesn't withraw the Amendment, I submit to you, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, that this Amendment in no way saves the State of Illinois any money but it does in fact, as I said in my earlier remarks, increase the possibility of personal and property damage and increases the possibility that many of our youths will be on our highways ill prepared for the very responsible assignment they have as drivers of automobiles. For that reason and many more, I would urge that you vote 'no' on Amendment 2 to House Bill 293."

"The Gentleman from Morgan, Representative Reilly." 180  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to oppose the Gentleman's Amendment. This is about the fourth time, basically, this Session that we've had an opportunity to vote on exactly this same idea, and let me remind you, I'm sorry to sound like a broken record but I'm not the one that keeps offering the same idea over and over again. We have in the Elementary and Secondary Education Committee a Subcommittee chaired by Representative Kustra which is working with the School Problems Commission and Don Gill, the State School Superintendent, to review the whole subject of mandates. I think this may well be a direction that we want to go in the future but I think the Members of the Committee seem to think, a majority of them including the leadership on both sides of the aisle in that Committee, that the way you do that is you do that in a studied way and do that as a package. Now, some have somehow suggested, I guess the idea of offering this plan time and time again on the floor to get around the Committee, is somehow a theory that Committee is not going to work. The fact is, the one de-mandating Bill the Committee actually heard they voted to approve. There's no reason at all to suppose that a majority of the Members of this Subcommittee are against the idea of de-mandating. What they're saying is we can't do it over night. We need to do it as a package. There are a lot of mandates and a lot of rules and regulations we need to look at. Representative Hoffman, with the School Problems Commission, has called a meeting this week to begin that process through the School Problems Commission also, and that is essentially the position of the State Board of Education. I don't know why we keep trying to get around the Committee process. It's working and should be allowed to work. What Representative Satterthwaite said with her 181  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Amendment is and what the Elementary and Secondary Education Committee recommended with support from both sides of the aisle was, while we're doing that let's not make the school districts go broke. While we're doing that, while we're deciding what the proper shape of the mandate is, if any, let's give them some additional funds so they can continue functioning. That's what the Bill would do without this Amendment. I hope that the Members will join with me in upholding the Committee system and in opposing Amendment #2. It should be defeated."

"The Gentleman from Lake, Representative Matijevich."

"Mr. Chairman(sic) and Members of the House, I only wanted to point out to the Members here what a difference a week makes. Remember last week when we had the right to work Bill and that's all I heard people say was that a Sponsor ought to have the right to have their Bill in the form that they desire. And here we have today the Sponsor of that Bill saying how refreshing it is to have somebody change a Bill in a different form. I only rise because I agree totally and he took the words right out of my mouth with what Representative Reilly said. On this issue of de-mandating, we ought to have that whole issue studied and it is being studied by both the School Problems Commission and the Committee. This is no Bill to be putting into subject of de-mandating but I just wanted to rise here to say what a difference it made. I don't know how many people rose to defend Representative Ray Hudson on the right to work Bill, and here the same Gentleman rises on the floor to say how refreshing it is to make these changes on Second Reading."

"Is there any further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Stearney. The Gentleman from 182  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 DuPage, Representative Hoff... Representative Deuster, do you seek recognition? Representative Deuster?"

"Mr. Speaker, I'm really impressed that this is being studies so seriously and also Representative Matijevich touched my heart. Representative Satterthwaite has her Bill and the more I reflect upon this I don't know if I want to offer an Amendment which would go in the contrary direction of her tax proposal here. And out of respect to the School Problems Commission and the distinguished Members who are studying this, I'm confident that maybe this time there will be some action, and so as to not take up further time of the House, Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw Amendment #2."

"The Gentleman withdraws Amendment #2. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 406, Representative Steele. Representative Topinka, we're not going to call appropriation Bills because they're not up against the deadline like other Bills are."

"House Bill..."

"Only the appropriation Bills that we'll have to call will we call. House Bill 406, Representative Steele."

"House Bill 406, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Schuneman et al, amends House Bill 406..."

"Representative Schuneman on Amendment #2." 183  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #2 also addresses the question of our state mandate on local schools. The Amendment would simply change the mandate for physical education classes in our local schools. At the present time, each local school is required to offer physical education classes for every student, every day for 12 years. If the Amendment is adopted, the law will require that pupils enrolled in public schools through grade 11 will be required to engage daily in courses of physical education. All my Amendment says is that instead of P. E. being required of every student every day for 12 years, we're now only going to require it for 11 years. That's all it does."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Ebbesen. Do you seek recognition, Representative? Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 406. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #3, Getty, amends House Bill 406 as amended."

"Representative Getty."

"Mr. Speaker, Amendment #3 would provide that the certified mail provision would have a return receipt requested. It merely adds the words, 'return receipt requested' so that there would be some check to make sure that the notice was actually received. I would ask for adoption of the Amendment."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Steele, do you care to comment?"

"Yes, I think this is a good Amendment. Makes the Bill better. I support it and urge your support."

"Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3. 184  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed will say 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #4, Deuster, amends House Bill 406..."

"Representative Deuster, on Amendment #4. Deuster, on Amendment #4. This is your Amendment, Representative. Amendment #4 to House Bill 406. Representative Stuffle, for what purpose do you rise?"

"I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker."

"State your point."

"On Amendment #4, I believe it's technically incorrect. It does not amend the Bill as amended and it does not fit in the Bill as amended by Amendment #1 and I ask you to rule it out of order for those reasons."

"Representative Stuffle."

"Yes, if I could elaborate on the point of order. The reasons it's technically incorrect, number one, the Bill has been amended and the Amendment does not amend the Bill as amended. Number two, specifically, the Bill amends lines in the original Bill that are no longer there in that place and the Amendment cannot have effect for those reasons."

"Your point is well taken, Representative. The Amendment's out of order. Representative Schneider, do you seek recognition? Are there further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 411, Representative Reilly. Out of the record. House Bill 441, Representative McGrew. Just a minute. Representative McAuliffe, is House Bill 439... somebody told me that that was some kind of emergency on that appropriation Bill. It's a supplemental. House Bill 439." 185  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"House Bill 439, a Bill for an Act making appropriations to the Data Information Systems Commission. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendment."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"None."

"Third Reading. House Bill 441, Representative McGrew. Representative McGrew? Read the Bill."

"House Bill 441, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Floor Amendments? Amendments from the floor."

"Floor Amendment #2, McGrew-Wolf-Schneider, amends House..."

"Representative McGrew, on Amendment #2."

"Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Amendment #2 to House Bill 441 would provide that the State Board of Education shall, by rule, promulgate guidelines to, for tuition charges for those students that are living on government property and not otherwise paying taxes to the school district. I'd move for its adoption."

"Is there any discussion? Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 441. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 482, Representative McClain." 186  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"House Bill 482, a Bill for an Act to amend the Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

""Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"No Floor Amendment."

"Representative McClain."

"Mr. Speaker, with leave of the House, I'd like to place 482 and 987 in Interim Study, please. 482 and 987 in Interim Study."

"482 and what was the other number?"

"987."

"987?"

"Yes, Sir."

"The Gentleman asks leave to place House Bill 482 and House Bill 987 on the Interim Study Calendar. Are there any objections? Hearing none, leave is granted. House Bill 531, Representative Catania. Read the Bill."

"House Bill 531, a Bill for an Act to amend the Regional Transit Authority Act. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions file with respect to Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"No Floor Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Ebbesen, amends House ..."

"Representative Ebbesen, on Amendment #2."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to withdraw."

"Gentleman withdraws Amendment #2. Further 187  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Amendments?"

"And 3."

"And 3? Gentleman withdraws Amendment 2 and 3. Are there any further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 555, Representative Schuneman. Out of the record. House Bill 556, Representative Schuneman. Out of the record. House Bill 584, Representative Stuffle. Out of the record. House Bill 597, Representative Dunn, Ralph Dunn. House Bill 597."

"House Bill 597, a Bill for an Act to amend the Election Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendments #1 and 2 were adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to Amendment #1 or 2?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Ralph Dunn, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Dunn, on Amendment #3."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. I also filed a Motion to or would like to move to table Amendment #2 if the Motion..."

"Gentleman moves to table Amendment #2 to House Bill 597. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment #2 is tabled. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #3, Ralph Dunn,..."

"Representative Dunn, Amendment 3."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. Amendment #3 is exactly the same as Amendment #2 except we put in a word that had been left out in the original drafting. It 188  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 said 'before each primary election' instead of 'before each election'. This is a technical correction and I move for its adoption."

"Is there any discussion? Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 598, Representative Chapman. Read the Bill."

"House Bill 598, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Pension Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Saltsman, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Saltsman on Amendment #1."

"Mr. Speaker, Amendment #1. I would like to have stricken from the record because of a technical error."

"Witheraw Amendment #1?"

"Yes."

"Gentleman withdraws Amendment #2 (sic). Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #2, Saltsman, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Saltsman."

"Yes, Amendment #2 is credible service given to firefighters who are layed off from 1950 to 1965. These men at the time of the layoff were not eligible to draw their money from the pension fund. At that time the state law would not let them withdraw what their contribution was. The time element here is anywhere from three months to two years and represents about 22 or 23 firefighters in the State of Illinois, and they are willing to pay what their normal contribution would have been during the time that 189  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 they were layed off from the municipality. Amendment #3, when we get to it is..."

"We're still on Amendment #2."

"Yes, I vote to adopt Amendment #2."

"Is there any discussion? Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 598. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #3, Saltsman, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Saltsman on Amendment #3."

"Yes, under the Mandates Act the General Assembly finds that the state is relieved of reimbursement liability on the State Mandates Act. I'd urge this adoption also."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #3 to House Bill 598. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 607, Representative Donovan. Read the Bill."

"House Bill 607, a Bill for an Act to create the Illinois Farm Development Authority. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to Amendment #1?"

"No Motions filed."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Rigney, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Rigney, on Amendment #2."

"Mr. Speaker, House Bill 607 is the one that creates an Illinois Farm Development Authority with the purpose of making low interest loans to young farmers who are not able 190  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 to get capital through ordinary sources. I felt there was one problem with House Bill 607 and that was the structure of the board and I have talked with the Sponsor of the Bill and apparently he is of the same opinion. As the Bill now stands it names certain state officers to be members of that board. The effect of this Amendment is to take those people out of the board structure to name seven members who have no elected state office, local office, or are they affiliated even with the local school board. It's an attempt to de-politicize the structure of this board."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Donovan, do you care to comment?"

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. Me and Representative Rigney have talked about a week over this and we have come to agreement that we'll accept his Amendment on Amendment #2, I believe it is, to 607."

"Any further discussion? Representative Darrow."

"Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Yes."

"What is the purpose of this Amendment? Why are you changing the composition of the board?"

"The board, I think, in its original form was made up of certain named state officers. I felt that this had the affect of making the board somewhat political in nature so I; therefore, substituted a provision whereby there would be a seven member board made up of no state, local, or school board officers. I felt it would just be a better board structure this way."

"I may have the wrong Amendment but isn't this the Amendment that was beaten by the bipartisan Committee? Aren't you changing this to say that the appointments are to be made by the Governor?"

"Under the terms of this, it'll be a seven member board 191  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 appointed by the Governor with the advise and consent of the Senate the way that most boards are filled in this state."

"I don't understand how that takes it out of politics if you have the Governor doing the appointment. I think you are going to get just the same result."

"Keep in mind that the Governor makes the appointments with the consent of the Senate, and as long as he's not able to appoint elected state officials and local officials to this board, I think it does have the affect of making it non-political."

"Why did you want the treasurer removed from this?"

"Well, under the original Amendment the treasurer and the Governor were directly on this board and I felt it simply was not wise to have those two individuals so named as members of the board."

"Why would that be? Why don't you want them or their designated deputies? The Governor and other elected officials are on other boards aren't they?"

"Well, there are several reasons. First of all, you specifically asked about the treasurer. I think if you'll check our Executive Article of the Illinois Constitution you'll find that really we, as a General Assembly, are not suppose to be assigning the duties directly to either the State Treasurer of the State Comptroller. Obviously, the Governor, I don't think, is going to serve much of a function on that board even though he is specifically named. I hope to have a good seven member working board and I think we're going to achieve it this way. And the Sponsor apparently now agrees with that position."

"I would like to point out to you that if you're going to quote the Constitution according to our analysis, the Constitution provides that the Governor may appoint or 192  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 shall appoint if the General Assembly does not act and the Supreme Court of Illinois also has reinforced that indicating that the Legislature can appoint. So I think you're on pretty shaky grounds when you state what you have just stated. I personally am going to vote against this Amendment. I think it's an end run by the Sponsor of the Amendment to knock the treasurer out of this. I hadn't had an opportunity to check with my Cosponsor on this but I feel that it was better when the Governor's as designated deputy were on it and the treasurer and the designated deputy. I see no reason to have the Governor making all the appointments. I think it's a power-grab by the chief executive of the state through his mouth piece, Harland Rigney. Thank you."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Ewell."

"Mr. Speaker, will the Sponsor yield to a question?"

"He indicates he will."

"I understand you want to de-policiticize this revenue bond situation but isn't this political money to begin with? In other words, where does the money come from?" Rigney; "The money, of course, will come by the sales bonds by the authority, and there will have to be some type of a guarantor for this. Either..."

"State of Illinois?"

"No, not the State of Illinois. Either Farmers Home Administration or the legislation provides that it can be done by some type of a private guarantor."

"But why would we want to de-policiticize some money which is essentially political in operation and orientation? In other words, once you give it to a private board and take it away from the political appointees as you say, what control then do we as Members of the General Assembly have 193  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 on this? In other words, you want the money but you don't want the regulation."

"Well, keep in mind that this board will be appointed by the Governor and will be confirmed by the Senate and that board will set the policy for the operation of that board. And it seems to me that we do not want to set up the type of situation, for instance, in the original legislation it provided that the State Treasure would even name the Chairman of the board. I though that was a little strange in that particular provision. That's one of the reasons I objected to it. I just think it's a better board structure this way."

"That's all."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Rigney, to close."

"I think, Mr. Speaker, the issue has been clearly made and I'm pleased to see that the Sponsors of this legislation on the other side of the aisle are now in agreement with this board provision, and with that kind of agreement I think we're just going to have a better Bill. House Bill 607 is an excellent Bill and one that's going to deserve our support on Third Reading, but I do think we need to make just this one little clarification concerning the structure of the board."

"Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #2 to House Bill 607. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The those in favor will signify by voting 'aye', all those opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 76 voting 'aye', 61 voting 'no', and 1 voting 'present', and the Gentleman's Motion prevails and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #3, Donovan, amends House Bill..." 194  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Representative Donovan on Amendment 3."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #3 just adds the word 'soil' on water conservation projects and water sheds to the Bill that was left out. We thought that was important. So, that's the Amendment. I move adoption."

"Is there any discussion? Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #3. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #4, Donovan, amends House Bill 607..."

"Representative Donovan on #4."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #4 adds specifically the name, 'Farmer's Home Administration' of the Department of Agriculture in the Bill. That was the intent of the Bill but it never specifically stated it so now that's what the Amendment is about. I move the adoption of Amendment #4."

"The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #4. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendment."

"Floor Amendment #5, Donovan, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Donovan on #5."

"Amendment #5 deals in the area of real estate purchases to this authority. We felt that we ought to put a hundred thousand dollar cap on it. Our intention is not to be buying land with this authority. It is to help young people and people that are in trouble in farming. So we put a hundred thousand dollar cap on any real estate transaction. I move adoption of Amendment #5."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #5. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; all oppose by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have 195  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 609, Representative Kelley. Jim Kelley. Read the Bill."

"House Bill 609, a Bill for an Act to provide for the lein from medical services. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Jim Kelley, amends House Bill 609..."

"Representative Kelley, on Amendment #1."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, Amendment #1 was agreed upon in the Committee before it was passed out. It passed out of the Committee unanimously and it's a small Amendment that just puts customary and reasonable, and this is in relation to fees for hospitals and physicians and dentists. I move adoption."

"Is there any discussion? Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #1. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it. Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 618, Representative Topinka. Read the Bill."

"House Bill 618, a Bill for an Act to amend an Act to revise the law in relationship to the election of county commissioners in Cook County. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Getty, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Getty on Amendment #1."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, Amendment #1 would specifically incorporate the language of Article VII, 196  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Section 3C of the Illinois Constitution in providing for the alternative methods of selection of the county board. It provides that members of the Cook County Board would be elected from two districts, Chicago and that part of Cook County outside of Chicago unless, as provided in the Constitution, a different method of election is approved by a majority of votes cast in the two districts at a countywide referendum or in the alternative, the Cook County Board, by ordinance, divide the county into single member districts from which the members of the county board, resident in each district would be elected. I would solicite your affirmative vote for this. This will exactly implement the constitutional provisions of the Illinois State Constitution."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Stanley."

"I noticed with great interest, Representative Getty, that you filed a Motion of descent to House Bill 1154 which is my Bill that require the Cook County Board to redistrict. I'm not sure I understand this Amendment and what your opposition is to 1154 but you're talking about the constitutional provision with respect to elections of county commissioners. In my Bill it simply requires the Cook County Board to reapportion. Now I'm not sure if... We're talking about a constitutional question here and I'm a little confused. Would you explain it a little further?"

"Why certainly. House Bill 1154 is unconstitutional because it impowers the General Assembly to restructure..."

"That is not true."

"The Constitution specifically provides that it can be done in one of two ways. By referendum approved by the voters in Cook County or by a county board ordinance."

"Representative Getty, I would advise you to read House Bill 1154 because it does not do what you said it does and 197  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 I will yield to Representative Vinson."

"The question is on House Bill 618. Representative Vinson."

"I would like to have a clarification of the Gentleman's Amendment to 618."

"Representative Getty. Would you explain your Amendment again, please?"

"You must have been out of the chamber at the time I did before, Representative."

"I think you mumbled through it, Representative."

"It provides that members of the Cook County Board will be elected from two districts, Chicago and that part of Chicago out of Cook County outside of Chicago unless a different method of election is approved by a majority of votes cast in each of the two districts at a countywide referendum or that the Cook County Board by ordinance divides the county into single member districts from which the county board resident in each district are to be elected. If a different of election is adopted pursuant to option one, the method of election may thereafter be altered only pursuant to option two or by a countywide referendum. A different method of election may be adopted pursuant to option two only once and the method of election may thereafter be altered only by countywide referendum. It further provides that unless option one or option two is adopted the number of members of the Cook County Board shall be 15 except that the county board may, by ordinance, increase the number if necessary to comply with apportionment requirements. If either of the foregoing options is adopted, the county board shall, by ordinance, fix the number of members of the county board."

"Representative Vinson, are you completed?"

"I'd like to speak to the Amendment." 198  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Proceed."

"The Gentleman has chosen not to show the same degree of courtesy that Representative Deuster did a few minutes ago to the Sponsor of the Bill. Representative Deuster, in his action, chose not to immasculate a Sponsor's Bill so that the Sponsor might have the concept voted on on Third Reading. Representative Getty's Amendment does gut the intention and the thrust of the Bill of Representative Topinka. Now, sometimes that might be justified, but I'd ask people to stop and think about the issues involved here. What Representative Topinka wants to do is to cause members of the Cook County Board to be elected by district. What Mr. Getty's trying to do is to give that authority back to the same members of the board who have chosen not to do that so far. I'd ask the question, how can a member of the Cook County Board who resides in a lake front highrise represent constituents in Marquet Park, or how can a member of the Cook County Board who resides in a lake front highrise represent constituents in Hyde Park? The point is obviously that the member of the board can't do that. The members of the board currently simply do not represent the citizens of most of the City of Chicago or the citizens of most of the County of Cook. It's a most unrepresentative board. I would argue that the Lady's Bill is extraordinarily constitutional and is extraordinarily responsible to the principle of representative government that we have fought for so hard. Now, it's clear that the Gentleman has never been an advocate of citizen representation and of representative government. His votes show that on many occasions and I would not expect him to endorse that concept. But it would appear to me that Members of this chamber who care about independence, who care about Legislators, who care about county boards to be 199  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 representative who want their government to express positions and concerns and cares that arise out of their neighborhoods, that arise out of their local regions can support this. This is a bipartisan measure. Opposing this Amendment is a bipartisan measure. We can defeat this Amendment. We can get more responsive government and more representative government and come to a point on Third Reading where we have a Bill that puts government where it ought to be, in the neighborhoods of Cook County, in the neighborhoods of the City of Chicago and that will be aborted if Representative Getty gets his wish to destroy this Bill. I would urge a 'no' vote on this Amendment."

"Representative Topinka."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, I'm in agreement, of course, with Mr. Vinson as to what's being done here. It's basically a very simple Bill of one man, one vote and basically codifies by ordinance representation of the people. And with population changes, I think that this is good insurance that everybody does have their say. It's a very democratic measure. I'ts very bipartisan and I suppose what probably bothers me more about this, I wish that, you know, my able colleague had asked me whether or not he had wished an Amendment or would have spoken to me before hand because I don't think that the Amendment does anything for this Bill; in fact, will probably gut it and divert my intentions by it. So I would encourage the House not to vote for the Amendment. If it would be so kind."

"Representative Bullock."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Unfortunately, the distinguished Gentleman from DeWitt who is usually able and correct is a bit off the mark on this Amendment and last I checked we were discussing the Amendment which is Amendment #1. We had not 200  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 gotten to the posture of discussion the Bill Representative Topinka has offered to this Body. Representative Vinson is well aware that this Amendment in all respects does indeed attempt to codify one man, one vote. It does indeed attempt to address the issue that must be addressed in reapportionment and that is to make certain that the population of the Cook County area is, in fact, adequately represented by members on the Cook County Board. For Representative Vinson to make an assertion or to be so speecious as to say that individuals who reside in certain dwellings in Chicago are in no way in tune with their constituency flies in face of the truth and he knows that. I think that what we have to understand on this Bill and my friend surely understands that is that this Amendment in fact is constitutional. It helps make a Bill which is questionable in its constitutionality a bit better and hopefully on Third Reading we can not only support the Bill but support the Bill as amended. For that reason and many others, I would urge an 'aye' vote on Amendment #1 and I would hope that my learned colleague would join with us after he has reassessed his previous remarks."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Pullen."

"Mr. Speaker, it doesn't particularly matter to me whether this Amendment is constitutional. It's just plain unfair and there is absolutely nothing bipartisan about it. It is a cruel, mean, low attack by the Democrat machine on the people in the suburbs and I urge everyone to defeat this Amendment and give Representative Topinka the opportunity to have her Bill heard as is rather than being completely reversed."

"Representative Karpiel."

"I move the previous question." 201  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Getty, to close."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, apparently the Gentleman from DeWitt misunderstood this Bill, read another one instead of it. But this is not the Bill, that is Representative Topinka's Bill, in its original form provides for election from Chicago and outside Chicago and addresses itself to apportionment. There's no fault with that. What this Amendment proposes it to take the exact language of our Constitution that is the language which the Lady from Cook just described as a low, mean blow by the Democratic Party. The Constitution of the State of Illinois is what we are seeking to put in word for word here. Now, this House doesn't have the authority to repeal the Constitution of the State of Illinois and no Act that we would attempt to pass could override the Constitution of the State of Illinois and indeed this Bill, this Amendment to this Bill will exactly implement the Constitution of the State of Illinois and set forth in proper constitutional language the exact method of election. Giving the people of Cook County the right to a referendum, setting forth that the option of ordinance by the county for districts as provided by our Constitution will be observed. I ask for your support. This is no mean, low blow by anyone. If it was a mean, low blow it was done by the Constitutional Convention. If you don't agree with it, introduce a Constitutional Amendment, but until then, this is the Constitution of our state. The state which we were all... The Constitution we were all sworn to uphold and I take exception to anyone casting dispersions to my suggesting constitutional language in a statute as being a low blow of the Democratic Party of anyone else. I think just to show that this is indeed the Constitution of our state and 202  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 that's all we're implementing, I would like to see a unanimous Roll Call on this Amendment."

"The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #1. All in favor will signify by voting 'aye', all opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Representative Conti, one minute to explain your vote."

"Mr. Speaker, what I have to say I can't say in one minute, but the 1970 Constitution perfectly spelled out how laxed we have been for over a hundred year in reapportioning this state for the General Assembly. If Mr. Getty's intentions are as honorable as I think they are, he's going about it the wrong way. We do need reapportionment in the County of Cook. We do the need the members not to be running at large but from districts and I think that Representative Stanley and Representative Topinka's got a Bill that will do such a thing for Cook County. The population back in 1970, 1920, 1930 when this was first adopted, there's three and a half million people in the City of Chicago and only one million people in the suburbs. Today there is less than 200,000 people, less in the suburbs than the City of Chicago. We are in dire need of reapportionment but I think Mr. Getty's going at it the wrong way and we should reapportion and give serious consideration to the two other Bills that are pending before this House and not by amending this particular Bill."

"Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. Representative Bullock, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Mr. Speaker, if the negative votes prevail, at the appropriate time I'd like to be recognized for a verification."

"Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question 203  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 there are 34 voting 'aye', 86 voting 'no' and none voting 'present'. Representative Getty."

"Poll of the absentees, please, Mr. Speaker."

"Gentleman requests a poll of the absentees. Poll the absentees, Mr. Clerk."

"Poll of the absentees. Bowman. Garmisa. Levin. Margalus. Martire. Satterthwaite."

"Representative Levin. Representative Levin, I didn't hear you."

"Please vote me 'aye'."

"Record the Gentleman as 'aye'. Are there any other changes? The count now is 85 'aye', 86 'no'. The Gentleman... Representative Satterthwaite."

"'Aye'."

"Record Satterthwaite as 'aye'. We now have 86-86. That's a tie vote. There's nothing to verify, Representative Bullock and the Amendment loses. Representative Getty."

"Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you respectfully that on a tie vote the negative side prevails and that it indeed should be verified."

"Representative Bowman, do you seek recognition? Representative Bowman wishes to be voted 'aye' on House Bill 618, Amendment #1. Representative Conti."

"Mr. Speaker, if this should receive the necessary votes for passage, I want a verification of the Roll Call."

"Representative Bianco."

"Mr. Speaker, change my vote to 'no', please."

"Record the Gentleman from 'aye' to 'no'. Representative Robbins. Record the Gentleman as 'no'. What's the count now, Mr. Clerk? There are now 85 'ayes' and 88 'nos'. Representative Madigan requests a verification. Representative Bullock requests a 204  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 verification at the request of Representative Madigan. Read the negative votes would you, Mr. Clerk?"

"Abramson. Ackerman. Alstat. Barkhausen. Barnes. Bartulis. Bell. Birkinbine. Bluthardt. Boucek. Bower. Catania. Collins. Conti. Daniels. Davis. Deuchler. Deuster. Jack Dunn. Ralph Dunn. Ebbesen. Epton. Ewing. Fawell. Findley. Virginia Frederick. Dwight Friedrich. Griffin. Grossi. Hallock. Hallstrom. Hastert. Hoffman. Hoxsey. Hudson. Huskey. Jackson. Johnson. Karpiel. Jim Kelley. Klemm. Kociolko."

"Representative Getty."

"Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you'd ask the Membership to be in order and in their seats. It's very difficult to see. I think there's quite a few unauthorized people and I note that there are a quite a few people out of their seats and I'd ask for some order."

"The House will be in order and the Members will be in their seat. Proceed, Mr. Clerk."

"Continuing with the poll of the negative. Klemm. Kociolko. Koehler. Kucharski. Kustra. Leinenweber. Macdonald. Mays. McAuliffe. McBroom. McCourt. McMaster. Excuse me. Representative McCourt is not here. McCormick. McMaster. Ted Meyer. Roland Meyer. Miller. Neff. Nelson. Oblinger. Peters. Piel. Polk. Pullen. Reed. Reilly. Rigney. Robbins. Ropp. Sandquist. Schuneman. Irv Smith. Stanley. Stearney. E. G. Steele. C. M. Stiehl. Swanstrom. Tate. Telcser. Topinka. Tuerk. Vinson. Watson. Wikoff. Winchester. J. J. Wolf. Woodyard. Zwick, and Mr. Speaker."

"Are there any questions, Representative Bullock?"

"Yes, Sir."

"Proceed."

"Mr. Speaker. Ralph Dunn." 205  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Representative Dunn, Ralph Dunn. The Gentleman in the chamber? Representative Dunn in the chamber? How is the Gentleman voted...recorded?"

"Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Tate."

"Representative Tate is in the back of the chamber."

"Bell."

"Representative Bell in the chamber? Representative Bell's in his chair."

"Deuster."

"Representative Deuster is in his chair."

"Deuchler."

"She's here too."

"Where, Mr. Speaker?"

"Right there in her chair."

"I don't know some of the new Members, Mr. Speaker."

"Well, if I tell you they're here, Representative, that's what they are."

"I'd like to get to know some of my colleagues, Mr. Speaker. You know the rules of the House."

"Proceed with your questions."

"Alright. Vinson."

"Representative Vinson in the chamber? He's over on your side cutting a deal."

"He's on the right side."

"You better watch him Madigan."

"Johnson."

"Representative Johnson. Representative Johnson on the floor? He's over here."

"Kucharski."

"Representative Dunn.. Return Representative Dunn 206  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 to the Roll Call."

"Kucharski."

"Representative Kucharski. Representative Kucharski on the floor? Is the Gentleman in the chamber? How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Stearney."

"Representative Stearney's in his chair."

"Peters."

"Representative Peters on the floor? Is the Gentleman in the chamber? How is he recorded?"

"Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Is that Phil Collins down there?"

"Collins? Is that what you said? Did you say Collins?"

"I see him, Mr. Speaker."

"Fine."

"Smith. Irv Smith."

"In his chair."

"Watson."

"Representative Watson? Right at his desk there."

"Representative McAuliffe."

"Representative McAuliffe. The Gentleman in the chamber? Representative McAuliffe. How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him."

"Representative Oblinger."

"In her chair."

"She's probably around. Representative Pullen."

"Representative Pullen. Right here." 207  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Representative Reilly."

"Representative Reilly in the chamber? Is Representative Reilly in the chamber? How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Representative Robbins. Clyde Robbins."

"Representative Robbins on the floor? The Gentleman in the chamber? Representative Robbins? How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call. Return Robbins to the Roll Call. He just returned to the floor?"

"Who's that, Mr. Speaker?"

"Robbins. Returned to the floor."

"Representative E. G. Steele."

"Is Representative Steele on the floor? Everett Steele? Is Everett Steele on the floor? How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call. Return Representative Reilly to the Roll Call. Representative Schuneman."

"Would you return me to the Roll Call, please, Mr. Speaker?"

"You weren't removed, Representative."

"I would like to be verified. Pardon me?"

"You weren't taken off."

"Oh. Excuse me."

"Return Reilly to the Roll Call."

"Representative Jack Dunn."

"Right here in front at his desk."

"Mr. Clerk, could you give me the count?" 208  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Do you have any further questions? Return Representative McAuliffe to the Roll. Return Representative Kucharski. He is back."

"The count, Mr. Clerk."

"There are 85 voting 'aye', 86 voting 'no'. Further questions? On this question there are 85 voting 'aye', 86 voting 'no' and the Gentleman's Motion fails. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment..."

"Representative Vitek."

"Mr. Speaker, I hate to interupt and I know it's against the rules, but I'd like to for the first time introduce the students from the Immaculate Conception School in the gallery and represented by Bobby Krska, myself, and Bill Margalus."

"Welcome to the Illinois House. Further Amendments on House Bill 618."

"Floor Amendment #2, Getty, amends House Bill 816."

"Representative Getty on Amendment #2."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, since there appears to be a reluctance on the part of this House to implement constitutional provisions and in order to save further time of the House, because I think the result would be the same, I'll withraw Amendment #2."

"Gentleman withraws Amendment #2. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 627, Representative Fawell. Read the Bill."

"House Bill 627, a Bill for an Act to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?" 209  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Floor Amendment #1, Mautino, amends House Bill 627."

"Representative Mautino on Amendment #1."

"Mr. Speaker, thank you, Sir. I'd like to table Amendment #1 and go with Amendment #2."

"Gentleman withraws Amendment #1. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #2, Mautino, amends House Bill.."

"Representative Mautino on Amendment #2."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Amendment #2 is very similar to the Amendment that Representative Bowman had on a previous Unemployment Compensation Bill addressing the question of the minimum level for those small businesses who do not have any experience factor built into their rate. If you will recall, that legislation was amended on a previous Bill. What this legisla... What this Amendment does in deference to that one is it's addressing the question of renumeration as opposed to wages that was presented in Representative Bowman's Amendment."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Fawell."

"Mr. Speaker, I rise to oppose Amendment #2. I agree with the concept but I'm afraid it might bog down this very important Bill. This Bill that I have introduced concerns 85% of our communities and a problem that they are having with their part-time unemployment compensation, and I would rise to ask that the Assembly turn down this Amendment and since we have already passed this Amendment on another Bill, I believe that has taken care of the situation that my colleague on the other side of the aisle is addressing."

"Is there any further discussion? Representative Mautino, to close"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As you all know, this increases the taxable wages from 40,000 to 60,000 a quarter 210  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 by the small employers so that they can receive the minimum rate provision. Back in 1975...'77 the rate was increased 900%, from one tenth of one percent to one percent. This puts those small employers that have sixty thousand dollars or less of taxable wages in a quarter and no experience factor in unemployment at the low rate. It's a good Amendment. It's one that should be adopted and I ask for your support."

"The Gentleman moves for the adoption of Amendment #2. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. You want a Roll Call, Representative Mautino? All in favor will signify by voting 'aye', all oppose by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the record. On this question there are 87 voting 'aye', 69 voting 'no', 1 voting 'present' and the Gentleman's Motion prevails. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 629, Representative Rigney."

"House Bill 629, a Bill for an Act to protect the family farm in Illinois. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendments #1 and 2 were adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to Amendments 1 or 2."

"Motion; 'I move to table Amendment #2 to House Bill 629'. Representative Rigney."

"Representative Rigney, on your tabling Motion."

"Mr. Speaker, Amendment #2 is a fine Amendment. It was just put on at the wrong place. We've got to table this and re-establish it on the right line."

"Gentleman moves to table Amendment #2. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The Motion carries and the Amendment's tabled. 211  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #3, Rigney, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Rigney on Amendment #3."

"Okay. Same Amendment., we just put it in amending Section 6 and that's where it belongs in the Bill."

"Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #3. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment's adopted. Further Amendments."

"Floor Amendment #4, Rigney, amends House Bill ..."

"Representative Rigney on Amendment #4."

"Amendment #4 merely adds the word 'zone' on line 29 of page four. What it's doing is adding to the exemption section a means to prove that those corporation are not engaged in agriculture. This is one, by the way, that was requested by Caterpillar."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman moves the adoption of Amendment #4. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye', all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the Amendment is adopted. Further Amendments."

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 637, Representative Vinson. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 637, a Bill for an Act to amend the Personnel Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Vinson, amends House Bill..."

"Representative Vinson on Amendment #1."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This Bill streamlines and makes more effecient the process in this case, the Department of Personnel. It provides for adequate future safeguards and I would urge 212  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 adoption of the Amendment."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Darrow."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would question the germaneness of this Amendment. I believe we were on this one other day and it deals with a different subect matter. than the original Bill and it should; therefore, be non-germane.. The Bill amends the Personnel Code and the Amendment abolishes the Civil Service System and it also makes a title change."

"In the opinion of the Parliamentarian and the Chair, Representative Darrow, the Amendment is germane. Representative Darrow."

"Well, then in the past you have ruled it must deal with the same subject matter. Are we now opening it up so that is no longer a criteria since this does not deal with the same subject matter?"

"You've heard my ruling, Representative."

"Would it be possible to clarify it for future reference?"

"We take these as they come, Representative Darrow. One at a time."

"We can't go then on past rulings."

"Are there any further Amendments?"

"No..."

"Is there any further discussion? On the Amendment, Representative. Representative Darrow."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, Amendment #1 does away with the Personnel Code in the State of Illinois. What will be required then is that the employees in order to obtain relief for offenses and misconduct by an employer by the State of Illinois. What they will have to do then is hire an attorney and appeal to court. They will not longer have any type of 213  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 administrative hearing, any type of assistance where they no longer have to use an attorn... where they no longer can go have a hearing without an attorney. What we will be doing by this legislation is having a legislation which allows attorney's to be hired. It's a good Bill if you think that a person who is discharged from employment with the State of Illinois should go out and hire an expensive attorney and go to local Circuit Court. If you believe that the current system under the Civil Service System where you have a hearing where you don't have to hire an attorney, where you don't have to go to a big legal expense, is a proper system, then vote 'no' on this Amendment. If on the other hand, you don't want that; if you want then to hire an attorney and go to the Circuit Court, then vote 'yes' for this fine Amendment offered by attorney Vinson."

"Any discussion? Representative Winchester."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I stand in support of Representative Vinson's Amendment. I think it will streamline government. I think it gives certain responsibilities to the Department of Personnel the Department of Personnel should have had a long time ago. I think each and everyone of us, if we reflect back, have from time to time confirmed in our own minds in private discussions that what Representative Vinson is trying to do now is what we all would want to do. I would urge a favorable Roll Call vote on this Amendment."

"Representative Birkinbine."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I, too, rise in support of this Amendment. What we have now is presently unnecessary and duplicative. This is a time when not only in the State of Illinois but across the country we are looking for ways to cut down on the size 214  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 of government, do things more effeciently and this Amendment is one good move in that direction. I recommend your support."

"Representative McClain."

"Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. Would the Gentleman yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Mr. Vinson, if you're transferring all of the duties of the Civil Service Commission to the Director of Personnel, would in essence that could lead to do away with the entire Personnel Code, could it not?" Vinson; "No. The Personnel Code is still there."

"So, it could never go to patronage. It that right?"

"Absolutely not. It's still, number one, the Director of Personnel still has to enforce those things and there's judicial review on each decision."

"So, you don't do anything for the political system or the political parties and you don't do anything to keep it cheap for the agreed party. What's the purpose of your Amendment then?"

"To save money for the taxpayers, Representative."

"Does it abolish any Civil Service protections?"

"I beg your pardon?"

"Does it abolish any Civil Service..."

"Absolutely not. Absolutely not."

"Thank you."

"Any further discussion? Representative Conti."

"I'll explain my vote."

"Representative Kane."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I find it interesting that somebody would say that the only organization in state government that protects the employee makes government too large. The Commission is a small 215  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Commission. It provides the employees some protection that the employee does not have to lay out money for an attorney and go to court. I think that this Amendment should be defeated soundly."

"Representative Ewell."

"Will the Sponsor yield to a question?"

"Indicates he will."

"Who is it that wants this particular Amendment?"

"The taxpayers, Representative."

"I mean, just be a little more specific. The taxpayers didn't right you and say, 'Let's abolish the Civil Service Commission and put it to the Director of Personnel'. Who..."

"The taxpayers have written me asking me to abolish every unnecessary agency, Representative."

"Then I'd like to speak to it having talked to a few taxpayers myself. Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen, when you talk about abolishing the Civil Service Commission and transferring the duties to the Director of Personnel you're talking about nothing but a pure and simple power grab for which the Sponsor is one of the most famous authors. I suggest to you that what you're trying to do is now staff the Republican political structure throughout the State of Illinois by abolishing what we have fought for a long time, that is an honest days wage and an honest days pay for the worker's of the State of Illinois. What you're doing by this Amendment is you're going to amesh all of these people into the political arena, make them subject to political bosses and, as I remember, cries from the other side of the aisle about good government about all the necessity for the taxpayers and wanting to keep politics out of government, what we have here is an unabashed claim to attempt to scuttle the entire Civil Service system for the benefit of 216  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 political appointees. It's an atrocious Bill, a power grab pure and simple and now we're inaugurating the Thompson Machine. I suggest that you cannot replace one political machine with another, but if we really want to give the people an honest count, then let's leave the Bills where they are. You can't tell from month to month what we're going to do in this Legislature. And I think we ought..you ought really ought to be ashamed of yourself, Mr. Vinson. At least you could be honest and say it's a power grab and I want to restructure my political organization at the expense of the people of the State of Illinois. It's a disgrace and this Amendment clearly is beyond the intent of the original Bill and I believe it ought to be defeated and let the Gentleman put in his own personal power grab."

"Representative McBroom."

"Mr. Speaker, I move the previous question."

"The Gentleman moves the previous question. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; all opposed by saying 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the previous question is moved. The question is, 'Shall Amendment #1 be adopted?' All in favor will signify by voting 'aye'; all opposed by voting 'no'. Representative Bowman to explain his vote."

"No, Mr. Speaker, a Parliamentary point. This Bill...This Amendment amends the title. If this thing passes I wish to exercise my right under Rule 34-D to return the Bill to the Order of Second Reading, First Legislative Day."

"Zale. Have all voted who wish? Representative Madigan to explain his vote."

"I rise in opposition to this Amendment, Mr. Speaker, and to explain my 'no' vote. This is simply part of the power grab of State Government by the Thompson administration and his clique of friends. First of all, he 217  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 appoints the Attorney General. He appoints the Secretary of State. He attempts to engineer the election of the President of the Senate even though the Republican party is in the minority status. And now..."

"Would you explain your vote, Representative Madigan?..."

"..One of his ....agents on the floor, Mr. Vinson, one of his mouthpieces on the floor, he's attempting to take over all of State Government personnel practices. I recommend a 'no' vote."

"Representative Telcser to explain his vote."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, in explaining my vote, I must comment on the most amazing display of political hypocrisy I've witnessed in recent years on the part of the Minority Leader who was weaned and brought up on patronage politics every single day of his political life. The Gentleman is one of the toughest, iron-fisted political leaders in Chicago because of the patronage which he enjoys, the patronage which his Mayor tried to grab just a few short weeks ago the City Council up north in the city of Chicago. So the Gentleman's words this afternoon are crocodile tears. They're meaningless. They don't mean a thing. All one has to do is look to the city of Chicago's machine and ask who was one of the integral parts of it. It's the Minority Leader who leads the Democratic party in this Assembly because of that patronage and the downstate Members and the city Members play to his tune because of the patronage which he controls...."

"Representative McAuliffe to explain his vote."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, after listening to Ray Ewell he convinced me to vote for this Bill and after listening to Representative Madigan I only wish that what he said was true." 218  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Representative Levin to explain his vote."

"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I just can't believe what I'm seeing on the other side of the aisle, a party that has had a reputation of being against patronage. Now what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. And if we're reforming in the city of Chicago, as I think we are, we should go the opposite way statewide. I think this...I think it's a bad Amendment and I think it should be defeated."

"Representative Conti to explain his vote."

"Well, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, it does shock me also to hear the last couple of speakers on the other side of the aisle talking about power grab. It wasn't too long ago...and this last Gentleman that just got through speaking didn't come back last year...just several months before the Honorable Secretary of State thought he was ready to become the Senate...the United States Senator, there was an 'aye' vote. A Bill passed here that automatically put in 2600 employees in the Secretary of State under the Personnel Code. If you read this Amendment it does just the opposite of what they're talking about, a power grab. To bear or conduct investigations as it deems necessary or of appeals of lay-offs filed by employees appointed under the jurisdiction be after examination provided that such proposals are filed within 15 calendar days. The State of Illinois, Ladies and Gentlemen, whether you want to believe this or not, the State of Illinois leads the country with 200 regulatory agencies. We have a Republican and we have a Democrat and then we put them in the bureaucrats. And the minute they become bureaucrats, then they don't know anything about being Republicans or Democrats. This is going to reevaluate the personnel 219  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 department in the State of Illinois and it is going to save millions in the long run. Take a second look at it, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. The people spoke loud and clear last November. They want some relief. Those of us who had to sit in on budget meetings in the last couple of weeks heard that the Governor has to cut 400 million dollars out of his budget. If we really wanted a power grab we certainly wouldn't be putting in a Bill like this. We have to reevaluate some of the bureaucracy we have; get rid of some of the waste that we have in some of these departments; cut down the budget and then let's start talking about tax relief to the people back home. And until you do this and until you adopt an Amendment such as this, we're never going to be able to go back home and say, 'We really tried to give you tax relief'."

"Representative Vinson to explain his vote."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. There's been much ado about nothing on this Amendment. It simply transfers the functions to another agency of government, an equally strong watchdog. It provides for full judicial review of how those functions are exercised. It's an Amendment that accomplishes one thing and one thing only and that's to remove duplicative agencies and to save money for the taxpayers and I would urge its adoption."

"Have all voted who wish? Take the record, Mr. Clerk. On this question there are 83 voting 'aye', 84 voting 'no' and none voting 'present'. Representative Vinson."

"I'd like to have a verification of the Negative Roll Call."

"The Gentleman requests a verification. Would you poll the absentees? Representative Madigan." 220  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"I request a poll of the absentees."

"Yes. We've got that in the works. We're waiting for the Clerk."

"Poll of the Absentees: Deuster. Ebbesen. Flinn. Garmisa. Huskey. Jackson. Margalus. Martire. And, Zwick."

"Are there any changes? Would you read the Negative Roll Call, Mr. Clerk?"

"Poll of the Negative: Alexander. Balanoff. Beatty. Bowman. Bradley. Braun. Breslin. Brummer. Bullock. Capparelli. Carey. Catania. Chapman. Christensen. Cullerton. Currie. Darrow. DiPrima. Domico. Donovan. Doyle. John Dunn. Ewell. Farley. Getty. Giglio. Giorgi. Greiman. Hanahan. Hannig. Henry. Huff. Jaffe. Jones. Kane. Katz. Keane. Dick Kelly. Kornowicz. Kosinski. Krska. Kulas. Laurino. Lechowicz. Leon. Leverenz. Levin. Madigan. Matijevich. Mautino. McClain. McGrew. McPike. Mulcahey. Murphy. O'Connell. Ozella. Pechous. Pierce. Pouncey. Preston. Rea. Richmond. Rhem. Richmond. Ronan. Saltsman. Satterthwaite. Schneider. Schraeder. Slape. Margaret Smith. Steczo. Stewart. Stuffle. Terzich. Turner. Van Duyne. Vitek. White. Sam Wolf. Younge. Yourell. And, Zito."

"Representative Lechowicz asks leave to be verified. All right. Do you have any questions, Representative Vinson?"

"Yes, Mr. Speaker..."

"Representative Zwick, do you seek recognition?"

"Yes. I'd like to be recorded as a 'yes' vote."

"Record the Lady as 'aye'. You're starting out with a dead tie, Representative Vinson. 84 to 84."

"I would question Mr. Beatty." 221  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Is Representative Beatty in the chamber? Representative Beatty. How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"The Gentleman is recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him. Representative Madigan, do you seek recognition?"

"Representative Breslin?"

"Representative Breslin in the chamber? She's in her chair."

"Representative Chapman."

"Representative Chapman in the chamber? Yes, right here in front."

"Representative Darrow."

"Representative Darrow? Representative Beatty has returned. Put him back on the Roll Call. Where is Representative Darrow? In the back on the Republican side."

"Representative Donovan."

"At his desk."

"Representative John Dunn."

"Over here on the Democratic side."

"Representative Farley."

"Representative Farley? Representative Ronan, you don't look a whole lot like Representative Farley. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't waive your arm when his name is called. How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"The Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Representative Giglio."

"Representative Giglio is in his chair."

"Representative Greiman."

"Representative Greiman. On the floor down here consulting with Representative Jaffe."

"Representative Hanahan." 222  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"Representative Hanahan on the floor? How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"The Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Representative Huff."

"Representative Huff in the chamber? How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"The Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Representative Leverenz."

"Who?"

"Leverenz."

"Representative Leverenz in the chamber? Representative Leverenz. How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"The Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call. Representative Huskey, do you seek recognition?"

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. Would you kindly vote me 'yes'?"

"Record the Gentleman as 'aye'."

"Representative Rea."

"Representative Rea in the chamber? Representative Rea? In his seat."

"Representative Schneider."

"Representative Schneider in the chamber? Representative Schneider? How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"The Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him please from the Roll Call."

"Representative Stuffle."

"Representative Stuffle is over here."

"Representative White."

"Representative White in the chamber? Representative White. Is the Gentleman in the chamber? How is the Gentleman recorded?" 223  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"The Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Representative Younge."

"She's right here."

"Representative Zito."

"Zito, Representative Zito. There he is in the back. Representative White is back. Return him to the Roll Call."

"Representative Carey. Representative Katz."

"Is Representative Carey in the chamber? Representative Katz is here. Representative Carey is here. They're both here."

"Representative Yourell."

"Representative Yourell in the chamber? Representative Yourell. How is the Gentleman recorded?"

"The Gentleman's recorded as voting 'no'."

"Remove him from the Roll Call."

"Representative Ronan."

"Representative Ronan? Representative Ronan in the chamber? Remove the Gentleman from the Roll Call. Remove the Gentleman from the Roll Call. Who's in Representative Ronan's chair there? Well, stand up so I can see you, Representative. The Gentleman is in his chair. Representative Madigan."

"Would you restore Mr. Leverenz to the Roll Call?"

"Return Representative Leverenz to the Roll Call. The Gentleman has returned."

"No further questions, Mr. Speaker."

"Representative Madigan?"

"Request a verification of the 'aye' vote."

"Representative Deuster."

"I believe I'm not recorded."

"How is the Gentleman recorded?" 224  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"The Gentleman is not recorded as voting."

"I was trying to figure out how to be recorded. I guess I'd better vote 'aye'."

"Record the Gentleman as 'aye'. Representative Martire? Record the Gentleman as 'aye'. Are there any other changes? What's the count, Mr. Clerk? Representative Madigan requests a poll of the 'aye' votes. You begin with a count of 87 'aye', 79 'no'. Representative Madigan."

"I'll withdraw the request for a verification."

"The Gentleman withdraws his request. On this question there are 87 voting 'aye', 79 voting 'no', and the Gentleman's Motion prevails. Representative Bowman?"

"I renew my request under Rule 34-D..."

"All right. Let me see if we've got any other Amendments, Representative. Are there any further Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"No further Amendments."

"Representative Bowman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Amendment amended the title of the Bill and under 34-D any Member of the chamber can request under those circumstances the Bill be returned to the Order of Second Reading, First Legislative Day. I'm exercising my option under that rule to make that request."

"You're absolutely right. Your point is well taken and the Bill will be returned to the Order of Second Reading, First Legislative Day."

"Thank you."

"House Bill 663, Representative Christensen. Out of the record? Representative Christensen, out of the record? House Bill 672, Representative Schuneman. Out of the record. House Bill 676, Representative Henry. Read the Bill." 225  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"House Bill 676, a Bill for an Act to amend various Acts to permit disclosure of county jail inmates' medical records without their consent. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."

"Are there any Motions filed with respect to Amendment #1?"

"Motion, I move to table Amendment #1 to House Bill 676. Representative Henry."

"Representative Henry on your Motion to table Amendment #1."

"Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would ask leave of the House to table Amendment #1. It's no longer needed and we have some information from the Department of Corrections which means that we do not need the other Amendments."

"The Gentleman moves to table Amendment #1. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; all opposed 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and Amendment #1 is tabled. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Vinson, amends House Bill 676 on page one..."

"Representative Vinson, Amendment #2 on House Bill 676."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would withdraw the Amendment."

"The Gentleman withdraws the Amendment. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Vinson, amends House Bill 676.."

"Representative Vinson on Amendment #3."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would withdraw the Amendment."

"Withdraw Amendment #3. Further Amendments?"

"No further Amendments."

"Third Reading. House Bill 677, Representative Telcser." 226  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981

"House Bill 677, a Bill for an Act in relationship to the establishment and operation of multi-county statewide Grand Jury. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."

"Are there any Amendments from the floor?"

"Floor Amendment #1, Cullerton, amends House Bill 677 on page two, lines six, ten and so forth."

"Representative Cullerton on Amendment #1."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I'd like to table Amendment #1 please."

"The Gentleman tables ...withraws Amendment #1. Are there further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #2, Cullerton, amends House Bill 677..."

"Representative Cullerton on Amendment #2."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I'd like to withraw Amendment #2."

"The Gentleman withraws Amendment #2. Further Amendments?"

"Floor Amendment #3, Telcser, amends House Bill 677 on page..."

"Representative Telcser."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, Amendment #3 to House Bill 677 provides that in the area of enforcement of the narcotic portion of House Bill 677 that the Attorney General's jurisdiction would be limited to counties in which there is concurrence of the State's Attorneys in those particular counties. I offer and move the adoption of Amendment #3."

"Is there any discussion? Representative Levin."

"Would the Sponsor of the Amendment yield for a question?"

"Absolutely."

"Okay. Representative, it's my understanding that the 227  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 ...that a State's Attorney in terms of his subpoena power, that subpoena power extends beyond the county in which he is the State's Attorney. So if he brings a Grand...If he has a Grand Jury proceeding in Cook County and his need to bring somebody in from Livingston or Coles or some other county, he's able to do that. Does this Amendment...By this Amendment is the ..would the Attorney General have the authority to subpoena somebody outside of the county where the State's Attorney said, 'Okay, you can have the Grand Jury on drugs here.'? Or, by this Amendment, is he precluded in terms of the jurisdiction of the subpoena to go in and subpoena somebody from some other county?"

"Well, Representative, this Amendment does not answer that question. I will have the answer for that one for you on Third Reading. What this Amendment simply does is deal with the question of convening the Grand Jury itself by limiting the convening of a Grand Jury and that subject matter to those counties in which the State's Attorneys give their approval. Any one State's Attorney could veto the convening of the Grand Jury. The question of subpoenas within or without the county or counties in which the Grand Jury is going to be convened is something which this Amendment is not related to. However, I will get you that answer before we get to Third Reading."

"Is there any discussion of Amendment #3? Representative Darrow."

"Parliamentary inquiry. On our Amendment #3, this is a new Act and yet everything is underlined. I wonder if this Amendment is in order or if some changes should be made?"

"What's your question, Representative?"

"My question is on Amendment #3, you have, in the Amendment itself, everything is underlined. And what you have is a new Act. This is a new piece of legislation, a 228  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 new Section of the Statute. It's my understanding that such an Amendment should not be underlined. It's improper form and therefore out of order."

"Parliamentarian tells me that the Amendment is in order, Representative Darrow. Further discussion? Representative Stearney?"

"Would the Gentleman yield?"

"Indicate he will."

"My question is this; this Amendment deals solely with the question of narcotics investigations convening a Grand Jury to investigate regarding the sale and distribution of narcotics. Am I right?"

"Right."

"Now, does this Amendment say that before the Attorney General can convene a Grand Jury relative to a narcotics investigation, he needs the concurrence of the State's Attorney in that particular county?"

"That's correct."

"So if a State's Attorney did not concur, the Attorney General could not convene a Grand Jury in that county relative to the investigation of any narcotics trafficking?"

"That is correct."

"That is the gist of it?"

"Right."

"Well, may I suggest then that really this Amendment is really not necessary and that provision of the Bill should be deleted in regards to narcotics investigations because I do want to point out to the Members that under the 'People versus Mascerela' decision the Illinois Supreme Court has ruled that. The Attorney General already has the power to go before a jury, a Grand Jury in the process of an investigation where he has the concurrence of the State's 229  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981 Attorney of that county. So if you're willing to do that, you might as well just omit this provision of the Bill because the Attorney General already is empowered to do such a thing, a matter, at the present time."

"Well, Representative, let me simply answer your inquiry by stating that Amendment #3 is an Amendment that was offered based upon discussions with various State's Attorneys throughout the state and they feel more comfortable with the Bill with the adoption of Amendment #3. So, while your point, I'm sure, is well taken, they apparently disagree. We want to assure State's Attorneys throughout the state of cooperation between law enforcement agencies and this is an idea which a number of State's Attorneys concur with."

"Well, if that be the case then, the further question that comes to mind is, why are you not amending the Bill to provide that in the cases of hazardous wastes and violations of the Consumer, Fraud and Protection Act that you also would need the concurrence of the State's Attorney to convene a statewide Grand Jury?"

"Because for reasons which I don't know the nuances of, the State's Attorneys who are active in reviewing this legislation were only really concerned in the area of narcotic investigations and they felt this was not necessary in the areas of hazardous wastes or consumer protection."

"So, in other words, the State's Attorneys Association feels that they're well equipped to prosecute narcotics violations and they do not need the assistance of the State Attorney General."

"Draw your own conclusions, Representative."

"I have no other questions."

"Any further discussion? Representative Bowman." 230  STATE OF ILLINOIS 82ND GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 39th Legislative Day May 12, 1981.

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield for a question?"

"Indicates he will."

"Okay. I'm not an attorney, as the Sponsor knows, but I do have some concerns and I'd like some clarification on Representative..an extension of Representative Stearney's point. As I understand it, your response to Representative Stearney indicated that if the State's Attorney of a particular county objected, the Grand Jury could not be convened in that county. Is that correct?"

"That is correct."

"Okay..."

"For the narcotic portion of the Bill.."