"The hour of 12:00 having arrived, the House will be in Session. Members will be in their seats. The Chaplain for today will be Father Mike Poterucha, Pastor of St. Mary's Catholic Church of Taylorville. Father Poterucha is the guest of Representative Karen Hasara. The guests in the gallery may join us for the invocation. Father Mike."
"Let us pray. Father in Heaven. Father, what a privilege it is for us to call you that, for in doing so we're reminded of the love You have for us, your children. A kind of love that forgives over and over again. A kind of love that accepts people just the way they are. A kind of love that treats one individual with as much respect and dignity as any other individual. A kind of love that seeks to unite. A kind of love that You call each of us to show towards each other, for we are brothers and sisters, members of one family, Your family with You as our Father. By what we say and do this day and always, may we please You and be found worthy of being called Your daughters and sons. We pray this in Your Son and our Brother Jesus Christ's name. Amen."
"Representative Ropp, the Gentleman from McLean, will lead us in the pledge to the flag."
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"Roll Call for Attendance. Mr. Clerk, take the... Mr. Pollak. There are 109 Members. Mr. Clerk, take the record. 109 Members answering to the Call of the Quorum. Mr. Piel, are there any excused absences on the Republican side?" 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, would the record show that Representative Hastert and Representative Hoffman are excused today?"
"Let the record so reflect. Mr. Matijevich, are there any excused absences on the Democratic side?"
"Mr. Speaker, for the moment there are none."
"Alright. Thank you, Sir. Messages from the Senate."
"Message from the Senate by Mr. Wright, Secretary. "Mr. Speaker. I am directed to inform the House of Representatives that the Senate has refused to concur with the House in the adoption of their Amendment to the following Bills; Senate Bill 1200, action taken by the Senate June 11, 1986. Kenneth Wright, Secretary." Message from the Senate by Mr. Wright, Secretary. "Mr. Speaker, I am directed to inform the House of Representatives that the Senate has adopted the following Senate Joint Resolutions, the adoption of which I am instructed to ask concurrence of the House of Representatives, to wit; Senate Joint Resolutions #101 and Senate Joint Resolution #117, adopted by the Senate June 11, 1986. Kenneth Wright, Secretary."
"Representative Curran in the Chair."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, I have not done this before in my four years in this General Assembly, because I have not had the occasion of so much local pride before in my four years in the General Assembly. With me today is a Gentleman named Harvey Richards and, in the next couple of days, Harvey Richards is going to take a trip, first, to Colorado Springs, then to Frankfurt, Germany, and then to Moscow. And this Gentleman here from Springfield is going to represent the United States of America in the Goodwill Games held in Moscow next month. This Gentleman is a national champion. He is from Springfield. He is so good 2 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 at what he does that it is impossible for him to get a fight here locally. Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to introduce to you Springfield's own, Harvey Richards."
"Thank you. I'd like to let you know that without the training from my fellow members of my team, I wouldn't be able to participate in this here Moscow Games... the Goodwill Games. They helped me 100 percent. They want me to win the National Golden Gloves in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I'd like to thank them for helping me to make this here trip and the City Street Department for their support also. Thank you."
"Mr. Curran moves for the adoption of House Resolution 1370. All those in favor say "aye", opposed "no". In the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes' have it. And Mr. Curran, the Resolution has been adopted and... is presenting it to this young man. Mr. Parke, were you seeking recognition?"
"Thank you, Mr. Chairman (sic - Speaker), Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I'd like to take pleasure in introducing 'Lori Beth Hayden', Miss Schaumburg and she's a candidate for the Miss Illinois competition, where last year she placed in the... as a runner... runner-up to Miss Illinois. I'd like to introduce her to the House."
"Committee Reports."
"Corrected Committee Report. Representative Kulas, Chairman of the Committee on Energy, Environment and Natural Resources, to which the following Bills were referred, action taken June 12, 1986, reported the same back with the following recommendation: "do pass as amended Senate Bill 2231."
"Agreed Resolutions."
"House Resolution 1441, offered by Representative Hensel. Check that. House Resolution 1434, offered by 3 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 Representative Williamson; 1435, Williamson; 1436, Johnsoni 1437, Johnson; 1438, Jack Davisi 1439, Goforth: 1440, Barger; 1441, Hensel. Also, House Resolution 1442, by Regan."
"The Gentleman from Lake, Mr. Matijevich, moves for the adoption of the Agreed Resolutions. All those in favor signify by saying 'aye", those opposed 'no". In the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes" have it. The Agreed Resolutions are adopted. General Resolutions."
"House Joint Resolution 218, offered by Representative Turner."
"Committee on Assignment. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading on page 3 of the Calendar, appears Senate Bill 241. Do you wish to proceed with that, Mr. Cullerton? Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 241, a B111 for an Act to amend Sections of the Criminal Code of 1961. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"Floor Amendment #1, offered by Representative Cullerton."
"The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Cullerton, on Floor Amendment #1."
"Thank you, Мг. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I would like to withdraw Amendment #1.
"Amendment #1 is withdrawn. Further Amendments?"
"No further Amendment. No further Amendments."
"A request for a fiscal note, Mr. Cullerton, has been made on this Bill. Mr. Cullerton."
"Is it... Is the fiscal note request made on the Bill or the Amendment?"
"It looks like both." 4 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"Well, we can eliminate one of those requests."
"Well, you can eliminate one. Mr. McCracken."
"Thank you. With the withdrawal of the Amendment, we'll withdraw the fiscal note."
"The fiscal note on the Bill, as well as on the Amendment? Alright. Then the fiscal note request has been withdrawn. Third Reading. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 522. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill. Mr. Homer, do you wish to proceed with 522? Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 522, a Bill for an Act to amend an Act to create the offenses of first degree murder and second degree murder. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"No Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. On page 4 of the Calendar, Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 937. Mr.... Out of the record. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, appears House Bill 943 (sic - Senate Bill 943). Mr. Nash, do you wish to proceed with that Bill? Mr. Nash, 943. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 943, a Bill for an Act to amend the baccalaureate assistance law. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."
"Are there any Motions with respect to Amendment #1?"
"No Motions filed."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"No Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 1552, Mr. Giglio. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill." 5 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"Senate Bill 1552, a Bill for an Act to amend an Act in relation to the conducting of charitable games. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."
"Are there any Motions with respect to Amendment #1?"
"No Motions filed."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"No Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 1601. Mr. Steczo, do you wish to proceed? Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 1601, a Bill for an Act to amend Sections of the Illinois Municipal Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Are there any Floor Amendments? Any Floor Amendments?"
"No Floor Amendments."
"Mr. Steczo, there's been a request for a fiscal note with respect to this Bill. So, the Bill will remain on the Order of Second Reading. On page 6 of the Calendar, appears Senate... on Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 1799. Out of the record. On page 6 of the Calendar, Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 1837. Mr. Johnson, do you wish to proceed? Out of the record. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading on page 7 of the Calendar, appears Senate Bill 1942. Do you wish to proceed with that, Miss Pullen? Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 1942, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."
"Are there any Motions with respect to Amendment 6 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 128th Legislative Day #1?"
"No Motions filed."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?" Clerk 0'Brien: "No Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. On page 7 of the Calendar. on the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 2003. Mr. Cullerton, do you wish to proceed? Out of the reco record. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 2212. Mr. Kirkland. Out of the record. On page 3 of the Calendar on the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appearsS Senate Bill 553. Mr. McPike. Do you wish to proceed with that, Mr. McPike. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 553, a Bill for an Act to amend the Real Estate License Act. Second Reading of the Bi11. No Committee Amendments."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"No Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1517. Mr. Terzich, do you wish to proceed? 1517. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 1517, a Bill for an Act to amend Sections of the School Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"Floor Amendment #1. offered by Representative Madigan and Cullerton."
"The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Cullerton, on Amendment #1."
"I don't think it would be fair to proceed with that, unless we are assured by Representative Piel that he's had an opportunity to read it, and that it's been printed and 7 128th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 distributed and read by the Sponsor."
"I'm advised that it's been printed and distributed, Mr. Cullerton. Thank you for your fairness."
"Okay."
"The Sponsor..."
"If I could just have a few minutes to read... actually read the Amendment myself, I would appreciate it."
"Well, it seems to me that that belabors the point, Mr. Cullerton, but, alright."
"I move for the adoption of Amendment #1."
"Do you want to explain it, Mr. Cullerton."
"I don't think it would be necessary. It's only a six page Amendment... a five page Amendment."
"Well, Mr. Cullerton, we have a devise to take it out of the record and come back to you, but... Mr. McCracken, for what purpose do you seek recognition?"
"I'm just... to ask if he would do that for a few minutes. We haven't had a chance to look at it either."
"We will come back to you, Mr. Cullerton. We seem... We'll have enough time to probably get back to you today. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1520. Mr. Ewing. Out of the record. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1548. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 1548, a Bill for an Act to amend Sections of the Illinois Police Training Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"No Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1558. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill." 8 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"Senate Bill 1558, a Bill for an Act to amend Sections of the Illinois Vehicle Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"Floor Amendment #1, offered by Representative DeLeo."
"The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. DeLeo. Mr. Hannig, you wish it out of the record?"
"Out of the record."
"Alright. We'll take this Bill out of the record. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1597. Out of the record. Yes. On the Order... On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading. Short Debate Calendar, appears Senate Bill 1662. Mr. Hastert. Out of the record. Oh, Mr. Hastert is not here today. Out of the record. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears House Bill 1673 (Senate Bill 1673). Out of the record. On the Order of House Bills... I'm sorry, Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1805. Mr. Shaw. Out of the record. Oh, Mr. Shaw, do you wish to proceed? Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 1805, a Bill for an Act in relation to the management of low-level radioactive waste. Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in Committee."
"Any Floor Amendments?"
"No Motions relating to Committee Amendment #1, and no Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. We will back up to a Bill that we took out of the record. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, appears Senate Bill 1597. Mr. Clerk, 1597. Read the Bill." 9 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"Senate Bill 1597, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Aeronautics Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Any Floor Amendments?"
"No Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1848. Out of the record. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading, Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1930. Miss Wojcik. Out of the record. Oh, Miss Wojcik is here. Okay. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 1930, a Bill for an Act to amend Sections of the Intergovernmental Cooperation Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Any Floor Amendments?"
"No Floor Amendments."
"Third Reading. Moving just back... up a few Bills. On the Order of Senate Bills Second Reading. Short Debate, appears Senate Bill 1520. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."
"Senate Bill 1520, a Bill for an Act to amend Sections of the School Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments."
"Are there any Floor Amendments?"
"Floor Amendment #1, offered by Representative Madigan and Cullerton."
"The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Cullerton, on Amendment #1."
"Once again, I want to make sure that this has been thoroughly reviewed by the Republican side of the aisle, just so they know that we're not trying to sneak anything over on them. Otherwise, I move for the adoption of the Amendment." 10 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day
June 17, 1986 "Perhaps, you'd like Mr. Ewing to take it out of the record for a while. That while it would give you that opportunity. Out of the record. Mr. Ewing. We'll come back to you. On the Order of Senate Bills Third Reading, page 2 of the Calendar, appears Senate Bill 96. Mr. Nash. Mr. Nash. Out of the record. Mr. Nash? Out of the record. On the Order of Senate Bills Third Reading, appears Senate Bill 351. Miss Didrickson. Miss Didrickson in the... you wish... Out of the record, Miss Didrickson? Alright. On the Order of Senate Bills Third Reading, appears Senate Bill 502. Mr. Davis, do you wish it called? Mr. Clerk... Mr. Davis... you'd like it out of the record? Alright. Out of the record. Mr. Clerk, Consent Calendar Second Day on page 14, read the Bills."
"Consent Calendar Second Reading, Second Day. Senate Bill 1563, a Bill for an Act to amend the Juvenile Court Act. Second Reading of the Bill. Senate Bill 1705, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Senate Bill 1706, a Bill for an Act in relation to high impact businesses and various tax incentives related thereto. Second Reading of the Bill. Senate Bill 1854, a Bill for an Act concerning the hunting of game and handling of aquatic life in Illinois. Second Reading of the Bill. Senate Bill 1862, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Public Aid Code. Second Reading of the Bill. Senate Bill 1929, a Bill for an Act to amend an Act in relation to energy efficient storage, hot water heaters. Second Reading of the Bill. Senate Bill 1993, a Bill for an Act to amend an Act relating to the Department of Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities, and Amendment 1 was adopted in Committee. Second Reading of the Bill. Senate Bill 2035, a Bill for an Act to amend the State Library Act, Committee Amendment #1 was adopted in 11 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day Committee. Second Reading of the Bil1. June 17, 1986
"Third Reading. For what purpose does the Gentleman from Macon, Mr. Tate, seek recognition?"
"Yes, Mr. Speaker. It was kind of noisy in the chamber. and a few minutes ago you read. I just... for the purpose of clarification, we had six Bills up, on the board that I... I didn't hear exactly what we were doing. He... They were on Consent Calendar. They were on Second Reading and we just moved them to the Third Reading."
"Yes."
"Correct, those Bills. Now, if we would like to object to one of those Bills on the Consent Calendar, do we have that opportunity or what?"
"Under the rules, you have that opportunity."
"When is the appropriate time to object? Right now?"
"There's a form. Each side has a couple of people who knock Bills off Consent Calendars, and you might check with your leadership, Mr. Tate. But there is a form for taking it off... not on the floor... We generally don't do it on the floor, Mr. Tate."
"How many Members does it require to take a Bill off Consent Calendar?"
"Yes, Mr. Tate, your attention is drawn to Rule 9. Under our rules. both the Speaker and the Minority Leader appoint three Members, who are the designated Members for moving and challenging the presence of a Bill or Resolution on the Consent Calendar. And you may check with any of those three on your side and they will be, I assume, more than happy to oblige you. Apparently, you can do it with four or more Members; however, if you should find that you're designees are unwilling to move that. Mr. Vinson."
"Mr. Speaker, if Mr. Tate would care to designate 12 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 on the Consent whichever Bill he does not wish to appear Calendar, as one those designees, I'd be glad to ask that it be removed."
"Well, alright. How about Mr. Tate turning and talking to you and not doing this on the floor. Okay? Mr. Vinson."
"The Bill is Senate Bill 1854..."
"Mr. Vinson, we have a Consent Calendar objection, if you will only come to the well..."
"It's right here. It's right here and it's being filed, Mr. Speaker..."
"Fine."
"... and I'd like you to not pass the Bill or go to it before it's filed."
"Mr.... Mr. Vinson, we have no Bills this morning on Third Reading Consent Calendar. We read the Consent Calendar on Second Day. You are within the time limits to remove the Bill, if you will just take the time, Sir, to file... to file it. The Clerk advises me it's filed and it will be off the Consent Calendar. And I don't know if that requires a response, but, Mr. Vinson, the Gentleman from DeWitt."
"Does that move the Bill to Short Reading Second Debate, First Legislative Day?"
"Perhaps your syntex isn't perfect, but something like that."
"I was just concerned, because I know from time to time you think some rules are more important than others."
"On the Order of Speaker's Table on page 15 of the Calendar, appears House Resolution 595. The Lady from Cook, Miss Braun. Mr. Clerk."
"House Resolution 595, concerns to the risks tnat are attached to doing business or making Investments in 13 128th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 foreign countries that are economically or politically unstable."
"The Lady from Cook, Miss Braun."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. House Resolution 595 suggests that our pension systems consider the risk attendant to investments in companies doing business in South Africa, particularly in light of the developments in the country of South Africa and yesterday's Soweto Commemoration. I think it is appropriate that this General Assembly, by way of Resolution, give guidance to the pension systems so that our continued presence in the presence of our pension dollars is not... no longer used to support apartheid. This Resolution, Ladies and Gentlemen, has been debated in part previously by this General Assembly. I say, in part, because, quite frankly, developments in recent months has given greater urgency to the question of Illinois's investment in South Africa and support for apartheid. Congress, right now, is considering legislation for sanctions against South Africa, known as the Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986. It is expected to come before the House of Representatives today. This Resolution seeks to give some expression to this... by this General Assembly that we do not support apartheid and that we put our money or we suggest to the pension systems that our money be put where our mouth is, and that we discontinue willy-nilly haphazard unconsidered imprudent investments in South Africa. I believe that the Resolution will also give the trustees of the pension system some of the legal protection that they claim is necessary. So, that in their decision making, as they take the economic risks of investment in South Africa into account, they will be shielded by way of this expression by the General Assembly from any collateral 14 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 attack on their judgement and decision making. I am willing to answer any questions you may have about the Resolution, and encourage your support for it."
"The Lady from Cook, Miss Braun, moves for the adoption of House Resolution 595. And on that, the Gentleman from DeWitt, Mr. Vinson."
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Lady would yield for questions?"
"Indicates she'll yield for questions."
"Representative, as I read the language of the Resolution, and I want to make sure that I am reading it in its current form, the consideration that you asked the Investment counselors to give is to risks attached with doing business in countries that are economically or politically unstable. Is that correct?"
"That is correct, Representative."
"Now, as I understand it, Mexico is currently undergoing an enormous economic crisis because of the declining price of oil and their foreign debt load. Would Mexico be covered by this?"
"I'm sorry, Representative, you said... your question was what?"
"My question is with regard to Mexico. It is currently undergoing an extraordinary economic crisis because of the declining price of oil and, because of the extraordinary foreign debt load that it carries. Would Mexico be covered by this Resolution?"
"This Resolution is specifically intended to address the situation in South Africa. But I would suggest to you, Representative, that, in any instance, it is appropriate for our investment counselors and for the people who make decisions about investments of pension funds that they take into account issues such as the instability, the 15 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 policitical instability of a country, and particularly in this case of the existence of apartheid in the civil war in that country. Obviously, a judgement has to be made and a line has to be drawn somewhere. The situation in Mexico, however, is in no way comparable to the situation that we face in South Africa. Mexico is a free country. South Africa is not. And so, I would suggest to you that there is a profound distinction between the two, between the Mexico situation that you mentioned and South Africa."
"But the language of the Resolution does not go to freedom or the absence of freedom. It goes towards economic and political stability or their absence. Now, which is it that the Resolution actually intends to target?"
"It goes to economic stability. And quite frankly, I used the term freedom and response to your question. But the issue for the investment of our pension funds is the economic stability of the investment. Surely, surely, apartheid is not a stable situation, either economically or politically. And I would suggest to you that, again in light of the civil war in South Africa, that situation is in contra distinction of any other in the world."
"Alright. Now, let me draw your attention to the state of Israel, which some people would contend has become economically unstable. Would Israel be covered by this Resolution?"
"Representative, it really does not serve a purpose for us to engage in a foreign policy discussion on this floor with regard to every nation in the world, in which one may have... in which there may be some internal or international disagreement or strife or problem. This Resolution very clearly, as you know and every other Member in this House knows, pertains to South Africa. And we..." 16 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day
"Your sole June 17, 1986 purpose... Your sole purpose is the South African situation then?"
"Yes, Sir. Yes."
"Okay. I will tell you, represent to you, that if you would offer an Amendment, and you could offer the Amendment right now to the document and I would support that, that would strike the language regarding economically and political instability, SO that the Resolution pointed directly at South Africa and only dealt with South Africa. I would support that Amendment and I would subsequently support the Resolution. But I am not going to support a Resolution that could, by its terms and on its face, deal with Mexico or El Salvador, or for that matter, Phillipines, particularly with the state of Israel, because somebody will come back and say that it covers that. Some goofy investment advisor who is prejudice against one or more of those countriesmight try to construe it in such a fashion."
"Thank you..."
"And I will not support that. But if you will simply offer an Amendment to strike the language that deals with economic and political instability and that goes directly at South Africa. I'll support your Amendment. I'll support the Resolution."
"Thank you, Representative. I'm delighted to hear that, because an Amendment, such as you have just suggested was adopted to this Resolution, and the Amendment does precisely what you have suggested, and I'm delighted to have your support at this time for the Resolution."
"Where is that... Where is that? I want to see that."
"It's right here, Representative. It's been adopted. The Amendment specifically..."
"Well, could you... could you have your parliamentarian 17 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 bring that over, so I can see a copy of what's been adopted?"
"Well, Representative I think if you have... you don't have the document over there?"
"No, Sir... Madam, I do not."
"Oh, well, do read it because it refers specifically to South Africa. It refers specifically to apartheid, and your Majority... Minority Leader is delivering it to you right now."
"And you're saying that it strikes the language that deals with economic and political instability?"
"Representative, you have it in front of you right now. You can read it and I think the language is as specific as it can be with regard to our intention that, we no longer continue to support apartheid with our pension dollars in the State of Illinois. And that this Resolution goes specifically to the situation in the... in South Africa."
"Okay, will you tell me where, in the Amendment that you're quoting from, where the language is?"
"Well, I'm... I can read the whole thing, Representative Vinson, but I'm sure you can read as well as anyone on this floor, and it does precisely what you said you would support. So..."
"Well, that's what I'm asking you to explain to me. Where does it say that?"
"Well, it... it... Representative Vinson, I can read it. In the "Whereas clause" or in the "Resolution clause", it strikes the language that you objected to and puts in specific language referring to South Africa and referring to the abolition of apartheid. This is an anti-apartheid Resolution, and I'm calling upon and asking for the support of every Member of this House in opposition to the horrible heinous system of apartheid by your vote on this 18 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day Amendment... on this Resolution."
June 17, 1986 "Okay, now here's... Okay, now in the 'Resolved clause', I think I'm reading the Amendment correctly. In the "Resolved clause', as I read the "Resolved clause", it says, 'to formulate and make public a formal statement of their investment policies as they relate to the consideration and assumption for financial risk of investments which are likely to be affected by the political or economic instability of a foreign nation, especially the Republic of South Africa.' Is that the correct language that's in there right now?"
"That is correct." Vinson: Braun: So, "Would you object to amending the Amendment on its face or the Resolution on its face, as it now stands amended? that we take out the language after the word 'investments' in line 19 prior to... up to and including the word 'especially' in line 21. So, that the... what the language would then be, 'assumption of the financial risk of investments in the Republic of South Africa.'" "Representative Vinson, based on your earlier statement, you suggested that if I adopted an Amendment to this Resolution, which referred specifically to South Africa, you would vote for the Resolution. An Amendment, such as you indicated in your comments, has been adopted. The Resolution is in as a specific form as it could possibly be."
"No, Representative let me..."
"I... Let me... If you don't mind, Representative Vinson."
"Excuse me. Alright."
"It's in as specific form as it could possibly be. The language to which you refer is an enterable part of the sentence. There is no way that that sentence could be rewritten and still make sense and still do what it is that 19 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 we intend to do. What we are saying by the Resolution is that there are special risks associated by virtue of our investments and support of apartheid, and that we are giving our pension trustees some direction in this area. I submit to you, Representative, without playing mind games or more specifically word games, that this Resolution in its present form does precisely what it is that you had asked in the beginning of this dialogue, and I would hope that you would stand by your word and vote for it."
"I will when you honor my word. Now, what the language says is affected by the political or economical Instability of a foreign nation, especially the Republic of South Africa. That does not limit it to the Republic of South Africa, and it could, by its terms, be interpreted to include countries like Israel or Mexico."
"Alright."
"If you'll simply take out..."
"Representative Vinson, I've just talked with Representative Bowman."
"Yes."
"And Representative Bowman has been working with me on this issue since we first filed divestment and sanction legislation six years ago. And Representative Bowman is of a mind that if, in deed, the only problem that you have with voting... voting an anti-apartheid Resolution out of this General Assembly is the words which are likely to be affected through the word, 'especially'. Then we would have no problem amending the Resolution on its face. So, that the Amendment will read, 'assumption of the financial risk of investments in the Republic of South Africa.' And it will be as specific as is humanly possible to make this Resolution."
"You make that Amendment, I'll support the Amendment, and 20 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 if the Amendment is adopted, I'll support the Resolution."
"Alright..."
"I move to..."
"Does the... Does the Lady have leave to provide that Amendment on its face? Leave. Leave is granted, and the Amendment will be so amended. Mr. Parliamentarian, would you retrieve the original document? Alright. Now, on the Resolution, as amended, and precisely the Amendment was amended on its face, the Gentleman from Livingston, Mr. Ewing."
"Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Sponsor would yield?"
"Indicates she'll yield for questions."
"Representative, what affect will this Resolution have, if adopted? What... Is it legally binding on the investors, or just what is it's legal affect, if we adopt this?"
"Representative, if I didn't know in my heart and mind that you know the answer to this question already, I would be perplexed that you put it. However, as you well know, Resolutions by this General Assembly are not legally binding, have not the force it affect of law. However, they do function as an expression of the will of this General Assembly in providing guidance to whomever the Resolution is directed, and that is the force... that is the affect of this Resolution, if adopted."
"Well, Representative, I... I'm not certain that Resolution's... the question... I'm glad you enlightened me with your answer, and I think it's very important that that be a part of the record of this Body's deliberation that anybody voting for that is not under any misunderstanding that this has or doesn't have the affect of law. We do know that Resolutions passed by this General Assembly have a great deal of weight or bearing on the actions, which are taken by some of the bureaucracy which 21 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 operates as State Government is that correct?"
"That is correct and, Representative Ewing, for your information and anyone else. I would point out that one of... that the pension systems have themselves already considered this issue, and have themselves, by way of internal discussion and memoranda, reached the same conclusion, as has been put in this Resolution. So, this Resolution has the effect of giving guidance, but at the same time, with regard to that guidance, the pension systems have, by voluntary action themselves, as result of meetings that were held this last year, undertaken to consider the risks of South African involvement of pension fund dollars."
"Has this Resolution been considered by the Pensions Committee or any other Committee of the House?"
"Yes."
"What Committee did it go to?"
"This did not go to the Pension Committee. This Resolution, in its present form, went through the Urban Redevelopment Committee. However, the Pension Committee did have in conjunction, under the auspices of Representative Wolf, we did have meetings, informal meetings, albeit. But we did have meetings with Representatives of the Pension Systems regarding this issue."
"It went to what Committee?"
"Urban Redevelopment."
"Urban Redevelopment. What possible relationship is there between the investment of our Pension Funds and urban redevelopment. Would it be that that was a friendlier Committee?"
"Representative, I'm glad you asked me that question."
"Well, I'm glad you're going to answer it." 22 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"The fact of the matter is, and in all seriousness, the fact of the matter is that, when we use pension... pension dollars to support apartheid, we take those dollars away from supporting Illinois industry and supporting Illinois business and supporting Illinois workers. We wind up paying money for slave labor, as opposed to union labor or nonunion labor, as the case may be here in Illinois. He have seen the affect time and time again of companies making decisions to spend dollars in South Africa, which support apartheid, which continue the racial segregation in that country, which continue the oppression in that country and at the same time shutting down operations in our own state. Without naming a specific company, within the last several years, there was a company here in Illinois that laid off some 1500 workers here in Illinois, at the same time they were expanding their operations in Praetoria. I would submit to you, Representative, that this is an issue that goes to the heart of the Illinois economy, not only with regard to the protection of the pensioners' interest, but also with regard to the protection of the interest of all Illinois citizens in the use of their tax dollars and with regard to the protection of the interest of Illinois workers."
"Who is the Chairman of the Urban Redevelopment Committee?"
"I believe that's in the book, Representative."
"Well, I..."
"Representative Younge is..."
"I don't have that in front of me."
"Representative Wyvetter Younge is the Chairman of the Committee."
"And, you know, Representative, you're very defensive. I'm very surprised. If we ask a question, you have a 23 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day legitimate Resolution. June 17, 1986 I would appreciate your not being quite as defensive on this."
"Oh, Rep... I'm not defensive, Representative, at all. I'm just surprised that a Gentleman of your tenure and experience in this General Assembly would ask me questions that you already know the answer to."
"Well, things change so much in this General Assembly depending on who's the Speaker and who's in control. Normally, I can't help but believe that a matter like this should've been considered by the Pensions Committee and not by the Urban Redevelopment. I happened to be involved with the pension's question. I think it's an important one. I think the security of our pension system is very important. I don't think that I care to trust that to an Urban Redevelopment Committee."
"The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Bowman."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I'd like to get this debate back on track so we can talk about the substance, rather than discussing which Committee the legislation went to. I would like to reassure that the last Gentleman that the issue will not end with the Resolution, but, in fact, we will continue to introduce legislation, because there are many reasons why we should withdraw our investments from the nation of South Africa. One of them is a moral question, and that question is not specifically addressed by this Resolution. This Resolution addresses primarily the safety issue. The question of whether these investments are secure. That is what we are trying to get the agencies of State Government, who invest these funds to be concerned with. One of the reasons, and I feel that this particular Resolution is timely and it is appropriate, that we heard testimony in the Appropriations Committee from the representatives of 24 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 the Teachers' Retirement Plan, and they said that they've never even discussed the issue. That it's just not an issue that has come to their attention. Now, I find that shocking, because you can hardly pick up a newspaper on any given day and not read something about the tragedy in South Africa. And I'm surprised that they have not made the connection in their own minds between that tragedy and the safety of their investments. But it seems to me that this General Assembly should speak to that question and should direct these agencies to consider it in their deliberations. So, I believe considering the testimony, that we have heard in the Appropriations Committee related to such matters, that this is a very timely Resolution and a very appropriate Resolution, and I urge its adoption."
"The Gentleman from Madison, Mr. Wolf."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. I rise in support of House Resolution 595. I think it's only appropriate that those individuals having the care, custody, control of pension funds should give every consideration to the social and economic unrest in the countries to which that money might divert it... be diverted. I urge support of the Resolution."
"The Gentleman from Marion, Mr. Friedrich."
"Would the Sponsor yield? Would the Sponsor yield?"
"Indicates she'll yield for questions."
"Aren't the people who handle the pension plan, subject to the Prudent Man Act, the same as trust companies?"
"Yes, Sir."
"Do you know of any criticism that any bank has had in Illinois, for example, by the trust examiners or having invested in trust funds in South Africa?"
"Well, when you asked the question, I was going to say, 25 128th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 Representative, I wouldn't want to make an analogy with the trust companies. I have not studied the cases specific to trust companies. But I can say to you that, yes, our investors are bound by the Prudent Man Rule and, yes, Representative, there has been intense criticizm, even at the level of the Federal Congress, in fact, the Federal Congress has passed legislation." There's been intense..."
"I'm not concerned about what Congress did. I'm just asking, under the Prudent Man Rule, has there been criticizm of trust companies or other trust officers or pension plan people who are bound by the Prudent Man Rule for having invested in South Africa?"
"Yes."
"The banks have?"
"Yes, it has been..."
"The banks..."
"There has been criticizm for..."
"The banks have?"
"... of banks. Some of the banks have even decided to pull out."
"Then why... Then my question is, why is this necessary, if they're bound by the Prudent Man Rule, to tell... for us to sit here and say you can't do it because they're already regulated?"
"I would suggest to you that in part one of the... one of the real reasons for this Resolution, Representative Friedrich, is to give some protection to any trust, any investors who may even entertain a question any longer, that a... and investments in South Africa may be considered to be prudent investments. It gives some guidance to them, so that if they decide to divest, if they decide to put those investments elsewhere into safer more productive investments, they will be protected in their decision 26 128th Legislative Day making." STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986
"Well, number one, I haven't found that trust examiners need much guidance. They'll lean on you anytime you're out of line anyway. But why don't we include in that banks and trust companies, as well as, pension plans, everybody else that we deal with in the State of Illinois. Why don't we tell the trust companies they can't? Why don't we tell everyone that's under the Prudent Man Rule they can't? Why are we picking on our pension funds?"
"Well, Representative, two parts of the... my answer to your question. The first is that if you want to file a Resolution to do that, I would be delighted to examine it for purposes of deciding whether to support it. However, with regard to this specific Resolution, this goes to public... public... it goes to pension funds for which we owe, I think, a special obligation to the pensioners in this state. We owe a special obligation to people who are depending on those pension investments that we will not fritter away their money. They will not..."
"Okay."
"... imprudently invest their money, and more specifically, that we will not subject their money to the possibility, the very real possibility of total loss with the collapse of the South African Apartheid Regime."
"Mr. Speaker, to the Resolution."
"Proceed, Sir."
"I have no sympathy for apartheid, but what we do we single out... it always comes from the same place over there. We start leaning on South Africa, and I have no problem of leaning on them. But why don't we lean on the Russians and the... and what their doing in Afghanistan, what they're doing in their own country to Jews and other people. Why don't we lean on all these people around the 27 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 world that are persecuting people and just take the whole batch in. If we're against this kind of thing, let's be against it all the way, not just pick out one country and let one bunch of sponsors pick their people. I'm surprised that the Jewish group here has notpicked on Russia because they're certainly persecuting and murdering the Jews in Russia now, but we don't do that. We pick on South Africa over and over and over again. If we're going to be against this kind of thing, let's be against it for the whole world."
"Okay. The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Preston."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I rise in support of the Lady's Resolution, House Resolution 595. I can't understand for the life of me why in God's name this Resolution is being subjected to such an ongoing debate, when the terms of it are so clear and the evil that it addresses is also SO clear. What we are seeing in South Africa is not merely the evil of apartheid. That in itself is reason enough to support this Resolution. But what we are seeing in South Africa is a denial of every single liberty that free people in this world and certainly in this country know of. We see censorship. We see people incarcerated for violating laws that are made on the spot by police officers. You know, news people in South Africa are being subjected to incarceration to jail sentences and being, thereafter, thrown out of the country for writing any article that is critical of South Africa. And what is determined to be critical of the government of South Africa is in the mind of the police officer who on the spot decides to make that arrest. These are the grossest denials of liberties that any of us can imagine, far beyond the obvious evil of apartheid of separation of the races by law. This goes... not only is that bad, this goes all that 28 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 much further. It is morally unconscionable to give investment monies to businesses that deal in South Africa, even if those investments are the soundest investments and the most profitable investments in the world. We have obligations to our children and to their children to come after them not to support this kind of repression anywhere in the world. And the previous speaker who talked about other countries. I agree with him. There are denials of liberties in other countries that should also be addressed. But we're talking right here of the denial of liberty that is of most moment in the world. The written about, publicized and exposed repression in South Africa. That's all this Resolution addresses. It should pass with all the votes in this House, and I urge your support."
"The Gentleman from Lake, Mr. Churchill."
"Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order."
"Yes, Sir. State your point, Sir."
"Yes, a moment ago, I went off the floor of the House to go down to Representative Capparelli's office and pick up my baseball uniform. I returned and I found a piece of paper on my desk, and I noticed that some of the other desks have this same piece of paper on there. It's a white sheet of paper with something that looks like it's been photocopied on the paper. It's entitled, A New Comedy Trio for the Democrats.. It talks about the... what they call the three stooges of local politics Adlai, Eddie and Mike. And I noticed that it has some things in here about our Speaker that are not very complimentary, such as, the fact that he says there..."
"Mr.... Mr. Churchill."
"My point is, Mr...."
"Make your point, Sir. State your point." Churchill "Mr. Speaker, I just wondered if this was done with 29 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 your knowledge and acquiescence, or if we have somebody passing this around..."
"Mr. Churchill, obviously somebody has chosen to violate the rules. However, we are at this moment debating a matter which is of some consequence. Your point is well taken. Whoever distributed that was in error and violates our rules, and they are admonished. And now, let US proceed with this debate, Sir. The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Terzich."
"Representative Braun, on your Resolution does... I assume the Resolution deals with the investment of pension funds, because that wasn't really explained about the Resolution. You mentioned why you want the Resolution adopted, but what does it specifically stipulate with regard to the pension funds?"
"Thank you. Representative Terzich, I'm glad..."
"She'll yield for questions."
"I'm glad you asked that question, because I think for you and for every other Member of this General Assembly I want you to be very clear about what it is that we are being called upon, what I'm asking you to support. The first paragraph of the Resolution says, "Whereas, the Republic of South Africa is the only country in the world today where racial segregation and inequality are written into the constitution and laws.. And I don't think, frankly, there can be any disagreement about that "Whereas statement. It is a fact. "And Whereas, this system of apartheid results in the political and social oppression of the majority of South Africa and is responsible for a monstrous degree of malnutrition, unemployment and suffering among the black majority.. Again, I say to you that is clear, that is proven and there can be no debate about that section. "And Whereas, the continued existence of apartheid is made 30 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 possible only through the vigorous, vigilance and vicious violence of a government which continues to deprive its people of all basic human rights.' And again, I don't think there can be any debate about that, that is a fact, that is the truth. *And Whereas, this sad situation has inevitably resulted in a country that is politically, socially and economically unstable and has been widely condemned by the nations of the world." That is also a fact and that is also a truth, that I believe we can all support. "And Whereas, the instability of the social and governmental situation in the Republic of South Africa make it an unsuitable climate for the investment of public monies, including public pension fund assets.. Again, a point that I believe everyone in this General Assembly. I hope everyone in this General Assembly can support. *And Whereas, the trustees in fiduciaries of the state's public pension funds have a special obligation to the people of Illinois to avoid the grave risk of investing our pension funds in investments that are either directly or indirectly dependent upon the continued unjust oppression of an unstable and precarious foreign government." Again, a point that... I believe we've talked about it. I don't think about which there can be much debate. 'Therefore...', and that's where the Resolution goes on, *Be it resolved, by the House of Representatives of the... of... House of Representative of the 84th General Assembly of the State of Illinois, that we call upon the Illinois State Board of Investment and the Board of Trustees of each pension fund and retirement system governed by the Illinois Pension Code to formulate and make public a formal statement of their investment policies.* We're asking them to make a statement of investment policies. *... as they relate to the consideration and assumption of the financial 31 128th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 risk of investments in the Republic of South Africa." That is the Resolution in its entirety. That is the Resolution upon which I hope that the Members of this General Assembly can support."
"So, what you're asking is the pension funds to give a statement of policy about their investments?"
"To give a statement of policy regarding... to give a statement of policy regarding how... what consideration is given the financial risk of investments in South Africa, that's right."
"And let's assume that they give a statement of policy, what are they suppose to do about it?"
"The Resolution does not call upon them to do anything other than make a public and formal statement of investment policies regarding investment in South Africa."
"Then what your saying is that the Resolution is simply asking the different systems to give somebody a statement of policy of what they're doing with their investments in South Africa."
"That's correct, Sir."
"That's all... That's all it's doing. It's not telling them what to do or anything. They just say, give me a statement of what you're doing about investments in South Africa."
"That is correct, Sir."
"It doesn't sound to bad to me. Good luck."
"The Lady from Marshall, Miss Koehler."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I rise in support of this Resolution. This is not a Resolution that mandates divestiture. This is a Resolution that asks the Pension Board to assess the risks associated with investment in South Africa. Now, we are all in this room certainly opposed to apartheid. We wish 32 128th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 It could be eliminated and would work in various ways to eliminate apartheid. There are many of us who are concerned about divestiture because we believe that divestiture would, in all probability, rob many blacks of some of the best job opportunities they have in South Africa; however, this Resolution certainly shows the sensitivity of those of us who are concerned about apartheid and would work to eliminate it in various ways. Therefore, I stand in support of this Resolution, because I think It gives the sense of the Illinois Legislature that we are opposed to apartheid. It is a nonbinding Resolution that simply calls upon the Pension Board to assess the risks of investing in South Africa, and I think that that is a perfectly acceptable information that we could use in determining the Investments that go into the various countries, such as, South Africa. Thank you."
"The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Piel."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Lady yield to a question?"
"Indicates she'll yield for questions."
"If... Representative, if we do pass a Resolution, and if our pension systems do start divesting, what would the potential cost be to the pension systems in the state?"
"I'm sorry, Representative, if what now?"
"If we do pass the Resolution, and if the pension systems do divest for companies dealing in South Africa or having plants in South Africa, what would the potential cost be? The loss to the pension systems in the State of Illinois?"
"Well, in the first sentence, Representative, as the Resolution... I just read the Resolution. Representative Koehler and others have talked about what the Resolution does. This does not call upon the pension systems to do anything but let us know what their policies are with 33 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 regard to South African investments. That's the straight answer to your question in the first instance. I could answer the collateral question, regarding divestment, but I don't really think at this point that it is all that relevant to this specific Resolution."
"I'm sorry. I would tend to disagree with you, because obviously the genesis behind the Resolution is disinvestment with companies that, you know, deal with the Union of South Africa. The question that I have... Alright, let me ask one other thing. In reference to the Resolution, I don't have a copy of it in front of me, but I glanced at it just, you know, briefly a second ago. Why didn't we bring up the Sullivan Principles. This is something that, you know, a lot of companies are going to... to show. These are companies that do business in South Africa to show that they are against apartheid."
"Representative, you know, actually maybe we should have this debate. You're talking about another... a different issue. This is solely an anti-apartheid Resolution. The issue of divestment and the Sullivan Principles is yet another issue that brings a host of other complexities into this debate. I will respond; however, specifically on the issue of the Sullivan Principles and say to you that, again, without regard to this Resolution, the The Sullivan Principles simply make the American companies function better within an already oppressive system. They are... the Sullivan Principles, I would not debate, I would not argue one way or another whether the Sullivan Principles are working or not. There is great debate about that. There are people who say the Sullivan Principles are not working. However, I would submit to you that even with the Sullivan Principles in place, that what you're talking about is talking about conditions for slaves. South 34 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 African blacks, the majority... 80 percent of the people in South Africa can't vote. They are not in franchise. They are not allowed the basic civil rights. So, even if you have a rule in place that says that everyone can live on the plantation underthese rules, it is still a plantation in which basic human and civil rights are denied."
"I agree. I agree."
"For that reason... For that reason, I believe that the Sullivan_Principles really beg the question on apartheid and whether or not we in this State of Illinois and in deed in this United States should be supportive of that system."
"Okay. The question I have though, Carol, is, okay you are asking the pension systems of the State of Illinois to do exactly what, by this Resolution?"
"To simply consider, to formulate policies and to inform us of what that policy is."
"Okay. To formulate policy. This is why I'm getting to the point. I would think that companies that do business in South Africa that do not abid by the Sullivan Principles, you know, should definitely..."
"But we don't know that..."
"Yes, okay."
"We don't know what the situation is right now with regard to these investments. They are being made willy nilly. In one instance, Representative Piel, the Auditor General's report showed us that one individual has total control over the investments of 1.8 billion dollars a year in pension funds. So, we don't know what thinking goes in. We don't know whether he makes differentiation between Sullivan Principle companies and non Sullivan Principle companies. We have no information upon which to make a judgement one way or the other. And that's why I submit to you that whether you are pro or con a particular view of economic 35 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 sanctions, that it makes sense for this General Assembly to say for once and for all apartheid is wrong. We will not support it or we don't want to support it. And we want to know where our pension investors are with regard to that issue."
"Okay. As far as knowing where the pension investments are, Carol, can we approach these pension systems and get a list of where pension systems... or pensions are... funds are being put."
"I'm sorry. Can we... Do we have a list?"
"Can we... Yes. Find out where these pension funds are being put."
"We have a host of lists, Representative Piel, some of which are considered to be more complete than others. One of the great difficulties we've had is that we have been unable to get adequate information, even out of our own pension system... governments system... systems governments... regarding the investments and of the criteria for those investments."
"But the Resolution is advisory. What is this Resolution going to do that we cannot already get, as far as information? You just saying that this is going to give us information. We have been getting information."
"We... We have never..."
"If it's just advisory. That's the thing that throws me."
"Well, I can't imagine the pension boards refusing to comply with the request... with the expressed wishes of the General Assembly to provide us with information as expressed in the Resolution. Now, let me say also, that requests were made by way of letters earlier in the year, and we did have a very difficult time from some, not all, of the pension investment boards in getting information. I believe that this Resolution will make it clear to all of 36 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 the systems that we... that we want to have this information. The General Assembly is concerned about this, and we'd like to have them consider and formulate some policy and advise us as to what criteria and policies they use in their decision making."
"No further questions."
"The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Harris."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, this Resolution simply asks the pension funds and the State Board of Investments to make a formal statement of their investment policies as they relate to the consideration and assumption of financial risk. This Resolution asking the Board of Trustees and Board of Investment to do that deserves our wholehearted support. However, I think it's appropriate based on what else is said In this Resolution to bring up a couple of other points and to bring up a couple of other questions. This Resolution states that the instability of the social and governmental situation in the Republic of South Africa make it an unsuitable climate for the investment of public monies. That is not necessarily correct. I think the Board of Trustees, the Pension Board... and the Board of Investment should understand that investing monies in South Africa is not necessarily based on stability. There are many unstable governments in the world today. There are many unstable governments in which pension funds are invested. There are many governments which have undergone a recent change of government either peacefully or forcefully, which have not made them a bad place to put our public monies, most notably the Phillipines, most notably Puero, Chile, South American countries that have staggering debt. Their form of government may change, be it peacefully or forcefully, but that doesn't mean that 37 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 business comes to a hault. That doesn't mean that commerce comes to a hault. I would hope that the majority of people, namely the blacks in South Africa, would indeed overthrow the oppressive white minority government, be it forcefully or peacefully. But that doesn't mean that they're going to cease commerce. That doesn't mean that they're going to cease trading. That doesn't mean that our dollars should be withdrawn. It seems to me, and I think it's an appropriate time to bring this up. It seems to me that U.S. money in South Africa is basically used for the good. And I think the Sponsor of this Amendment admitted it. Most of the U.S. companies in the Republic of South Africa or doing business in the Republic of South Africa adhere to the Sullivan Principles. Now, the Sullivan Principles may not be the best thing in the world, but they make us a little bit better than everybody else. Because you know what happens when the U.S. dollar leaves South Africa? When IBM refused to sell their computers in South Africa, you know who was knocking on the door? Hitachi. The Japanese. If Caterpillar Tractor pulled out of South Africa tomorrow, you know who would be selling heavy equipment to the South Africans? Komatsu And you know why? Because the Japanese and the Korean and the Europeans don't have the same moral sense that Americans do. The American companies, because they're run by Americans, have a basic sense of fair play of honesty and certainly a higher sense of equality than any other companies in the world today. When we leave South Africa, be assured other companies are going to come in, take the business that we give up, and we're the poorer for it. Because there's one thing we cannot change. In this House of Representatives, we cannot change the law of economics. We cannot change the flow of dollars. When we go, some other country, who is not quite 38 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 as morally principled as we are, is going to move in and going to take that business. This Resolution, however, simply wants a report. Based on that, I think we should support it, but there are other considerations here, and I would urge that the Board of Investments and the trustees of the pension funds consider those other questions. Thank you."
"The Gentleman from St. Clair, Mr. Flinn."
"Mr. Speaker, I move the previous question."
"The Gentleman from St. Clair, Mr. Flinn, moves Braun: the previous question be put. Those in favor say *aye", opposed 'no". In the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes' have it. The previous question will be put. The Lady from Cook, Miss Braun, to close." "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In response to the last speaker and just to put a note of levity on this very serious situation, there was a story... theargument that if the Americans leave South Africa that means everybody else will be there. It's been suggested that that's the international equivalent of, if I stop raping you, then somebody else will. The fact of the matter is that the rape continues in South Africa. The fact of the matter is that we do have a responsibility here. And I believe, Representatives, all of you, that this approach is an approach for peaceful change in South Africa. It's an approach that says that we will use means other than violence, other than the gun to bring about change in South Africa. We have seen in recent years and recent months the absolute intransigence of the South African Government to change. The brutality has continued, the oppression has continued, indeed, if anything, it has gotten worse. It seems to me, Ladies and Gentlemen, that it is time for this General Assembly to say apartheid is wrong and we want to 39 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 do something about it. We want our pension investment systems to consider what it is that we do when we send dollars over there. To formulate some policies, so that we will all have some guidance with regard to investment of our public monies. I encourage your support for this Resolution. It is the right thing to do. I don't think there's a person in this House who doesn't believe that apartheid is wrong. If that's the case, then vote for this Resolution. There are no other issues that are presented to us more clearly than this Resolution presents this one, and I encourage your support for House Resolution 595."
"The question is, "Shall this Resolution be adopted? All those in favor signify by saying 'aye', those opposed 'no". In the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes' have it and the Resolution is adopted. Mr. Vinson, for what purpose do you seek recognition?"
"Mr. Speaker, very clearly a number of people in this House spoke against this resolution and asked for a Roll Call."
"No one asked for a Roll Call."
"Now, I'm going to vote for the Resolution."
"No one asked for a Roll Call."
"I think it ought to be passed."
"No one asked for a Roll Call."
"All over the chamber people were yelling for a Roll Call."
"No one asked for Roll Call. However, Mr. Vinson we are certainly willing to give you Roll Call if that's your pleasure, Sir. Question, "Shall this Resolution be adopted?" All in favor signify by voting 'aye', those opposed vote 'no". Voting is now open and this is final action. Gentleman from St. Clair, Mr. Stephens, to... one minute to explain your vote." 40 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day
June 17, 1986 "Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't know, I think we spent about an hour on that Resolution and it's really to bad that we had to spend all that time debating an issue that will really have no impact as far as Illinois Government or world affairs are concerned. And, while the blacks in South Africa are certainly are denied their right to vote, we sit here especially on this side of the aisle denied of our right to vote on Tort Reform. And, I wish that the Speaker would come out and deal with the real issues in Illinois."
"Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question there are 81 voting 'aye', 23 voting 'no', none voting 'present' and the Resolution is adopted. On the Order of Speaker's Table appears House Resolution 638. Out of the record. On the Order of Speaker's Table appears House Resolution 665. Out of the record. On the Order of the Speaker's Table appears House Resolution 920. Mr. Clerk, read it."
"House Resolution 920 calls for the release of Nelson Mandela and other political prisoners in detainance by the Republic of South Africa."
"The Lady from Cook, Miss Flowers."
"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This Resolution is an appeal to consider the violation of the basic civil and political rights of citizens beyond the Illinois borders. It is a statement to the world that the State of Illinois does not concur with injustice in South Africa or injustice anywhere. And, I would urge your 'aye' vote on House Resolution 920."
"The Lady from Cook moves for the adoption of House Resolution 920. And on that is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Cook... from DeWitt, Mr. Vinson." 41 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"Yes, I wonder if the Lady might yield for questions?"
"Indicates she'll yield for questions."
"Representative, I understand, I think to some degree, Mr. Mandela's symbolic role in the South African situation. I wonder if you are familiar with the case of Andrei Sakharov in the Soviet Union?"
"I've heard of it Sir."
"Are you aware that he is being detained in internal exile in the City of Gorky?"
"Yes."
"... and denied the right to come to freedom?"
"Yes."
"Do you think that that's appropriate?" Flowers:
"Representative a Vinson, if you would file Resolution... calling for his immediate release. I would be the first one to help you support that Resolution." "Would you be willing to amend your Resolution on its face to include within it the release of Andrei Sakharov by the Soviet Union?"
"I would appreciate, Sir, if you would just file your own Resolution."
"Well, I think that if we are going to deal with these complex problems of foreign affairs and express a balanced and judicious view point in this General Assembly on these complex issues of foreign affairs. We've got to deal with them in a even handed fashion. And, I'm wondering if you would join me in recognizing that the detention of Mr. Sakharov by the Soviet Union in the City of Gorky and the denial of his civil rights, his freedom to speak, in specific violation of the Helsinki Accord is as grievous a violation of human rights as any detentions in South Would you agree with that and support that?"
Africa. Flowers: "I would agree with that 100 percent, Sir, and if you 42 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 would read... start at line 21 in my Resolution. "Whereas, the release of Nelson Mandela and other political prisoners." Other political prisoners. I'm calling for the immediate release of all political prisoners."
"And would you agree to amend your Resolution on its face in line 22 after the word 'detainees' by including in there, "including Andrei Sakharov currently imprisoned by the Soviet Union."?"
"I would rather, Representative Vinson, that you would put together your own Resolution, as I have done so. And, I would join you in support of your Resolution."
"So, you would resist that Amendment?"
"Yes, I would, Sir. I wouldn't..."
"Okay, thank you. Ladies and Gentlemen, Members of the House. It is clear that it is impossible under our rules to amend an Amendment or a Resolution on its face, if a Member of this chamber opposes that Amendment. Earlier today, we saw a Member on the other side of the aisle offer a Resolution which had in the past been a controversial partisan issue and ceased to be as partisan an issue today, because she was willing to accept an Amendment on the face that many of us felt made the Resolution much more even handed and balanced. Now, this particular Resolution and its Sponsor denies us the opportunity to so amend it. This particular Resolution deals primarily with the detention of Mr. Mandela in South Africa. Mr. Mandela and his detention have assumed an symbolic role in South Africa. Whatever, your view point on Mr. Mandela's detention in South Africa. I suspect that every Member of this House agrees that the denial of freedom to Mr. Sakharov in the Soviet Union is even more a violation of law in natural right, because the Soviet Union has explicitly agreed in an international treaty ratified by its government and ratified by our 43 128th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 government to protect the rights of people like Mr. Sakharov. There is no such treaty applying to Mr. Mandela. There is a treaty that applies to Mr. Sakharov and yet the Lady would deny us the right to express our sense of outrage at the injustice meted out to Mr. Sakharov particularly at the time when Mr. Sakharov's wife has had to return to jail in order to be with her husband. For those reasons, I would urge a "no" vote on House Resolution 920. This Assembly has spoken loudly and clearly in a previous Resolution on the South African situation. "No" vote is required to further express our concern about South Africa. What is required is some recognition that totalitarianism exists in places other than South Africa. It seems to me amazing that anybody would come in here with a Resolution decrying the denial of political freedom and be able to ignore and walk away from the Sakharov situation. And, I would urge a 'no' vote on this, because what you're doing if you vote 'yes' on it is accepting tacitly the incarceration of Mr. Sakharov. I urge a "no" vote on the Resolution."
"The Gentleman from Lake, Mr. Matijevich."
"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentleman of the House, I only rise because I'm amazed at the Assistant Minority Leader's inconsistency. Because, as I heard him in the last Resolution, he kept insisting will you limit this Resolution to South Africa. He insisted of Carol Braun that she limit it to the issue of South Africa. Now, in this issue he wants to make it broad. He wants to go beyond the issue of South Africa. He wants to go to Russia and everywhere else. Now, I think that's as Inconsistent as one can be. Now, let's face it, we all know the issue today is South Africa. We all know also, that this Resolution and the past one that we just considered and 44 128th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 adopted by a quite heavy vote maybe, would've been tougher for someone to adopt a year ago or even less than that. But, surely not today. Not when we see that brutality is right at the doorsteps. We don't know what tomorrow is going to bring. If it brings what it did ten years ago with the revolution ten years ago, it's going to bring much bloodshed. This Resolution, I think is no different than the last one we adopted. We are saying that the State of Illinois, as a matter of policy, stands against apartheid, stands against discrimination, stands against one's suppression of individual and human rights. I don't know of anybody who could be against that, even Sam Vinson has got to be for that. So, I would wholeheartedly adopt this Resolution. It's as consistent as the last one."
"The Gentleman from Cook, Mr. Piel."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, will the Lady yield to a question?"
"Indicates she will yield to a question."
"The Resolution deals specifically with Nelson Mandela and in a round about way other political prisoners. But let's talk about Mr. Mandela for just a second. What was he initially jailed for?"
"Because he's against apartheid in South Africa."
"That was strictly why he was jailed initially?"
"Strictly because of his philosophy, Sir. That is the reason why he is incarcerated and has been incarcerated for the past 23 years."
"Another question about him. What group was he belonging to at the time of his incarceration."
"To my understanding Sir, he was a lawyer as well as a leader in his community."
"To the Bill or to the Resolution, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentleman of the House, I would like just to give you a 45 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 little bit of background on Nelson Mandela. Why he was incarcerated and the group he presently... belonged to at that time. He was carcerated when they broke into his apartment or home at that time they found 500 firearms. This isn't a person that's passively trying to get change. Now we're not talking about pea shooters or sling shots. We're talking about hand guns and rifles, 250 hand gernades. That's not a way to get peaceful change. I've yet to see a hand gernade get a peaceful change. He is also, was at that time and is presently, a member of the ANC The African National Congress. For those of you that do not know the ANC wanted support financially from this country. This country said no, and they are backed financially and to the hilt right now by Russia, a communist front organization. Before you vote "yes" on this Resolution, I would ask you to all think very very seriously about your vote and what the ramifications of it are. Thank you."
"Further discussion, the Lady from Cook, Miss Braun."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I rise in support of this Resolution and I say to you that Nelson Mandela is a freedom fighter in South Africa. Nelson Mandela is a symbol to all South Africans of the struggle against apartheid. Whether, the issues that have been raised by some previous speakers have little If anything, I think, to do with the fact that Nelson Mandela has been illegally jailed, has been wrongly jailed if not illegally jailed and deserves to be free. If, in deed, we are to show our support for the struggle of the majority of South Africans to enjoy the basic freedoms that we enjoy, the right to assemble, the right to free speech, the right to believe in what you believe, the right to 46 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 participate as equal citizens. If we believe in that, then it is no... no great leap for us to say that we think that people in other parts of the world, symbols of struggle such as, Nelson Mandela, ought to be freed from the illegal oppression, from the wrong oppression that they are presently suffering in South Africa. I encourage your support for this Resolution."
"Miss Flowers to close."
"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemens of the House, I would simply urge your 'aye' vote on House Resolution 920. Thank you."
"Question is, 'Shall House Resolution 920 be adopted?" All those in favor signify by saying 'aye', those opposed "no". In the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes' have it. Now, we are going to move now to the next Order of Business. You have to ask for these in a timely way Mr. Vinson. It's clear from the 'ayes' and 'nays'. On the Order of Conference Committee Reports appears, Senate Bill 263. Mr. Clerk."
"Senate Bill on the Order of Conference Committees, Senate Bill 263, a Bill for an Act in relationship to farm credit. First Conference Committee Report."
"The Gentleman from Jackson, Mr. Richmond."
"That you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. The Conference Committee Report on Senate Bill 263 deals with extending the authority to 14 month period for the lender in the case of bankruptcies, or extenuating circumstance, this has to do with the Illinois Farm Development Authority and it is something that the authority has asked for. And I would move for the adoption of the Conference Committee Report."
"The Gentleman from Jackson moves for the adoption of Conference Committee Report #1 to Senate Bill 47 128th Legislative Day 263. and on McCracken." STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 that, the Gentleman from DuPage,
Mr. McCracken: "Thank you, the Gentle yield for question?"
"Indicates he'll yield."
"The second page of the Conference Committee Report... there is a little underlined language on that page. Can you explain the change?"
"One moment, please. It assures that the interest rate will be adjusted every year to 250 based points to be in alignment with the interest on U.S. Treasury Bills."
"And, how much does a basis point consist of? I mean, how, how, what is the relationship that bares to the adjusted interest rate?"
"I'm afraid that I'm not prepared to answer that at the moment. I'm sorry."
"Okay."
"One moment. One-one hundredth of a full interest point, I'm told."
"I'm sorry."
"One-one hundredth of a full interest point, I'm told.
"Okay. So it would be two and one half points over the treasury rate."
"Yes. That's right."
"Okay. On page four the authority shall have the authority to extend the 14 month period, in case of bankruptcies. What does the 14 month period refer to?
"I'm sorry, would you repeat that."
"Yes, what does the 14 month period refer to?"
"I think it was based on the 12 month period before and this extends it to 14 months to allow the lenders an opportunity to... extenuating..."
"Okay. And, who declares the state guaranteed delinquent? Is that a function of the authority or would 48 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day that be the lender?" Richmond:
"The authority." June 17, 1986 "The authority, and is there any standard in the law for there determination of delinquency or on what basis is a delinquentcy declared?"
"I'm told that the authority and the lenders would move jointly on the guidelines and I guess that could vary the... depending upon the lenders policies."
"Okay, and are there any guidelines to guide the authorities discreation in granting an extension of that 14 month period in cases of extenuating circumstances? On what basis will they make that decison? Is there any standard set forth in the Act."
"I think the original law goes into that and this Conference Committee Report does not change that I'm... I understand."
"But, this is new before the 14 month period could not be extended. Richmond: McCracken: Is that right?" "Repeat that. I'm sorry." "Before this the 14 month period could not be extended by the authority." Richmond:
"Yes, I think that is correct. "So, the loan had to be liquidated or the collateral had to be liquidated with in 14 months." Richmond:
"That is correct." "Now, do you have any information regarding the cost that this extention would create? Would the authority be carrying or guaranteeing more debt? Would they be required to for example issue bonds or look for anymore security in order to be able to carry these delinquencys beyond the 14 months?"
"I'm afraid I can't give you a detailed answer or a very poor one in fact. I will have that information. I 49 128th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE June 17, 1986 didn't realize it was going to be called this afternoon. But, I will have that information. I can't answer that at the moment."
"Okay. Are these obligations that the state guarantee authority takes by virtue of this law? Are they obligations of the state? Is our full faith and credit of the state behind these?"
"Oh, yes, that's a 85 percent guarantee. Obligation of the state."
"Okay. Thank you."
"The Gentleman from Macon, Mr. Tate. Mr. Tate."
"Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would like to yield to Mr. Friedrich, my time."
"Well, Mr. Friedrich is not at his microphone. Oh, there he is. Alright, Mr. Friedrich. Hr. Tate has been kind enough to yield his time to you."
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to request a forty-five minute recess... 健
"Yes."
"for the purpose of a Republican Conference."
"Yes, and I told you when you asked that, I said, as soon as we finish this Bill we will be more than happy to."
"I thought that's what you recognized me for, Sir."
"Sure. Sure. And you said okay. So, fine. Mr. Ropp."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. I certainly want to stand in support of this Conference Committee. It is a further attempt to alleiviate a serious situation relative to the farm prices and these attempts have been made so that more banks will participate in helping farmers secure credit over a longer period of time. I urge your support." 50 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"The Gentleman from Lake, Mr. Churchill."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman Yield?"
"Indicates he will yield for questions."
"Representative, can you tell me whether or not the liquidation period on collateral has been altered under the Conference Committee Report?"
"Are you referring to the 14 month extension period."
"Yes, was that, is that the same as it was before or has that been changed?"
"That was changed."
"Alright, and how has it been changed?"
"I think it was 12 months before."
"So, now it is 14 months."
"Yes."
"You've extended it by two months."
"Yes."
"Alright, Can you tell me what the effect on a bank would be if the bank has a farm as collateral and the farmer declares bankruptcy? What happens to the collateral at that point?"
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to request to take this out of the record. So, that I can answer these questions properly."
"Well, alright, Mr. Richmond, of course, you're within your right, but we will not be returning to that, to this Bill today."
"Well, I was not prepared for it, and I'm sorry. They were asking some questions I don't know the answer to. Mr. Churchill, I'm sorry I can't really respond to your question."
"So... I... Okay. Okay, then at the request of the Sponsor the Bill will be..."
"Well now, just a moment maybe he's..." 51 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day
"Mr. Churchill." June 17, 1986
"I still need to know the answer to the question. I'm sorry."
"I don't know the answer."
"Mr. Speaker, is the Bill still on the record? We're still on the Bill?
"Yes, still on the record, you can proceed."
"I'll hold for a minute. I'll hold for a minute if you want."
"Yes. Mr. Richmond."
"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Conference Committee Report, in regard to the question that was asked, I'm told doesn't change the collateral picture whatsoever it adds two months to the existing policies or guidelines and the collateral picture and the lenders involvement would be indentical to what it was before except for two months longer time."
"Mr. Churchill."
"Yes, Thank you, Mr. Speaker. But, I do want to get that clear though. That if a bank under this program has loaned money to a farmer, the farmer then goes into the default on the loan. The loan is... You know, they start some foreclosure preceedings or whatever and the farmer goes into bankruptcy, then what you're saying is from the time that he goes into bankruptcy there is an additional 14 month period. And, does that prohibit the bank then from going into the bankruptcy court asking the bankruptcy court to allow this property to be cut out of the bankruptcy court in the event that there is no equity there and allow the bank to continue its foreclosure proceeding, as would be done in a normal case?"
"The authority has the authority to step in, in bankruptcy cases, to offer mediation and to provide for a 52 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 settlement of the situation and certainly with the protection of the bankers interest in mind, too."
"I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. I didn't hear what he said. I couldn't hear you."
"I said the authority has the authority to step in to bankruptcy cases and to offer mediation which would take into consideration not only the farmers interest but, the bankers interest and that is what is provided in this Conference Committee Report."
"So, then it could really be two or three years before the collateral is liquidated and the bank would be able to obtain its loan back."
"If you say so, I'm not sure that thats covered. I don't know the answer to that."
"Alright.... let me ask you, I want, a different question on the a lot of the banks and rural Illinois are fairly small banks and yet the program that you set up here is a rather large program. Was there something in this Bill which extended the lending limits for local banks?"
"The last,... I didn't catch the last few words of your question. I'm sorry."
"Is there something in this Bill that extends the lending limit for small banks?"
"No."
"So, then if one... if a farmer comes in under this program and his request for money exceeds the lending limit of the bank how is he going to get the money out of the program anyway?"
"Under the Banking Act lending institutions can only loan up to a certain percentage of there working capital and surplus. This change would allow banks to waive loan limits and lend farmers the funds when they are guaranteed by the State of Illinois." 53 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"Okay, so this Bill then does allow for the extention of lending limits. That's what you are telling me."
"Only in those cases."
"Alright, and it would have to be a state guaranteed loan under this program."
"Where there is a state guarantee. Yes, under those certain circumstances.
"Okay, as a general matter, you know, this issue was a major issue in our last legislative session. Have there been an increasing number of bankruptcies or lessing number of bankruptcies in the last year?"
"It has developed that since the mediation became available that there have been certain... certainly there's been bankruptcy cases but, the liquidation numbers has certainly decreased. Perhaps none. Is that right? Anyway its decreased."
"So, in other words... "
"The mediation process is working, in other words."
"Alright, so then but there have been no liquidations, since a year ago?"
"Has there been? I'm not sure whether... I can't say with definite within the definity that there has been none, but it has been decreased. I don't have those figures here. I'm sorry."
"So, then what you're saying is what is in law already is taking care of the problem. I guess, then what I'm saying is why do we, why are we still arguing on this if we took care of the problem already in a previous piece of legislation?"
"This is, as I understand it, what is required and requested by the Illinois Farm Development Authority to assist them in the program and to make it more workable."
"Thank you." 54 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"The Gentleman from Morgan, Mr. Ryder."
"Thank you, will the sponsor yield for some questions?"
"Indicates he'll yield for questions."
"Thank you. Representative, this Conference Committee Report I want to try and determine the status of House Amendment #1, which I believe was your Amendment which was adopted. Is that part of the Committee Report?"
"The Conference Committee Report requests the House to receed from House Amendment #1. Deletes everything after the enacting clause to clarify the language of the Illinois Farm Development Act."
"Alright, SO there none of the items that were in House Amendment #1 are incorporated in the Conference Committee Report."
"That's correct."
"Okay, does that mean that there now has been removed the restrictions on limitations to 1985 spring planting? So, that this operational loan is now available at anytime for any purpose."
"If that was part of Amendment #1. Yes, its been defeated. I don't have that Amendment here."
"My understanding on that Amendment, if I could be of assistance, indicates that House Amendment #1 clarifies that the money is to be used only for spring 1985 planting, raising, and harvesting cost. It was an elimatation that put it simply on an operational loan for crop assistance and that was part of the Amendment which you Sponsored in which was adopted and then, my understanding is, that Amendment would be receeded and I'm just wondering now if there are any limitations on the Bill, or on the operation SO whether these funds would be available even as of today."
"Yes, with the elimination of the Amendment, that would 55 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day be true." June 17, 1986
"So your indicating that even though crops may be in the field and in fact substantially growing, that there still is opportunities for farmers to come in and to borrow these funds."
"Well, he would have the... it would have to be for that purpose but, maybe perhaps he did the planting before he got his loan application in or got it processed and it would still apply. It's a 14 month period. Before we had a cut off date that was to early. You know, this is a rehash of a Bill that we had a couple of years ago and it was..."
"I understand. The limitation in the original Bill was strickly for crop only. Is that right? It is not livestock or any other basis. It's for crop only."
"It was for farm products. Production products and it would... it basically was for the grain crops. Yes, in the original Bill, but I think in this... the revised version it was to include basic farm products which would include of course, some meat production."
"Now the limitation as the result of this Conference Committee the limitation would mean that someone could apply as of now, for these funds on a livestock operation?"
"I'm not sure about the livestock operation. I'll have to pass on that question. I can't give you a definite answer."
"In general then, specifically you would say that yes, for a grain operation..." Richmond:
"Yes, that's right." "...and limitation or the deadline is not passed so that applicantions could still be submitted."
"14 months, during that 14 months period, yes."
"14 period which starts when, and ends?" 56 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day Richmond: June 17, 1986 I simply don't instead of "There was a starting date in the Bill. have it in front of me here. It's 14 months before it was something like nine or ten months in the original Bill. But, this extends it because of convenience of the farmer and the lender and it still is basically for the same purpose."
"Okay, I understand the purpose. Its just that we're losing the benefit of your Amendment #1 and the Conference Committee Report and as a result of losing that Amendment there are certain limitations that are not there and the end result is what's concerning me. In the event, that a farmer is... has trouble getting finances to get the crop harvested, is this loan available for that purpose? I'm talking about in the fall."
"Yes, I would say that it would be."
"And that's within the 14 month period."
"If it's within the 14 month period."
"Okay, fine. Thank you. Can you tell me if you know what kind of participation in this program we had this spring?"
"There are two different programs, I'm told and the authority... again we don't have the figures before us. There was a total of 3500 applications and the ones that were processed and awarded, I don't have those figures. But, the last I heard from Ron Bailey of the Illinois Farm Development Authority it indicated that there was a Ryder: great number of loans that had been processed, more lenders were involved in the last several months and it entered into the process and so, it is working." "But, you don't know, you don't know how many dollars, and you don't know how many people were awarded the loans?"
"It certainly is available. I'm sorry that I can't give it to you at this moment. I was prepared to go into this tomorrow morning, really." 57 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"I understand and... and I understand the circumstances in which you find yourself. Could you also tell me if you, such as I, have had many folks come to you complaining that no banks in there area would participate in the program."
"Yes, I did. Particularly a few months ago and then there has been some meetings with bankers with the Development Authority and various Legislators around the district, around the state and trying to acquaint the lenders get our finger on the problem that they present with this program and also to promote secondary mortgage sales. And, so with that in the background most of the lenders said that would really improve the program and since the authority is working in that direction we have found that several more banks have entered into the program."
"Is there anything in this Conference Committee Report that is, that is designed to help meet that problem because I can tell you very frankly that one of the counties in my district in which this is a very significant problem that the banks are not cooperating. I would very much like to see it because the need happens to be the greatest in that county where the banks are not cooperating. Is there anything in the Conference Committee Report that would give the banks greater incentive to participate?"
"Well, I think, yeah, there's factors in there, but, apparently that still wasn't all they would like to see. But, what I'm referring to is what the Development Authority is working on in the... I don't know whether I'll use the proper terminology, but, financial world, but something about the secondary mortgages and secondary market for these loans and whenever that is accomplished and Ron Bailey is not here to give me the update on just where they are on it, but that is something they are 58 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 pursuing. And, the bankers all said that was the type of thing that they needed and it's being pursued."
"Thank you, Representative, I appreciate you answering my questions even though you didn't have all the facts there. Thank you."
"I'm sorry about that. Yes."
"The Gentleman from Jackson, Mr. Richmond to close."
"I just... I just simply ask support for this Conference Committee Report."
"Question is, "Shall House adopt Conference Committee Report #1 to Senate Bill 263?" All those in favor signify by voting 'aye", those opposed vote 'no". Voting is now open and this is final action. Yes, Mr. Flinn."
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to explain my 'no' vote."
"Mr. Flinn proceed."
"Well, we talked over an hour here and everybody asked a lot of questions of the Sponsor who admitted he didn't know what he was talking about and I've got to vote "no" on anybody who doesn't know what their talking about."
"You want to have your seat moved? Mr. Clerk, have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, there are 109 voting 'aye', none voting 'no", none voting 'present'. And, the House does adopt Conference Committee Report #1, to Senate Bill 263 and this Bill having received the Constitutional Majority is hereby declared passed. Mr. Friedrich we are going to do a couple of Resolutions and then adjourn so that you can have your conference at that time. I assume that would be... would meet your approval. Mr. Friedrich."
"Would that interfere with Committees?" 59 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986
"No, there are no Committees. We are getting ready to wind up. Mr. Clerk, Agreed Resolutions."
"House Resolution 1444, offered by Representative Countryman, and House Resolution 1445, Didrickson - Steczo and Regan."
"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Lake. Mr. Matijevich on the Agreed Resolutions."
"Speaker, these are congratutory I move the adoption of the Agreed Resolutions."
"The Gentleman from Lake moves the adoption of Agreed Resolutions. Those in favor say 'aye', opposed 'nay', in the opinion of the Chair the 'ayes' have it. Resolutions are adopted."
"General Resolutions."
"General Resolutions."
"Senate Joint Resolution 101 offered by Representative Madigan."
"Committee on Assignment. Committee on Rules. That Resolution will be placed on the Committee on Assignment. Ladies and Gentlemen, we are about to take up a Death Resolution for a former Member. Member who some of us, some of the older Members of this House served with. And, after that we will be... the House will stand adjourned. In the meantime, I did want to indicate that there are a few announcements to be made. Mr. Ropp, Gentleman from McLean."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the purpose of an announcement at 4:30 this afternoon the House Softball Team will practice just west of the Capitol, three blocks. Thank you. 4:30."
"Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Friedrich has requested a Republican Conference. So, immediately on adjournment, immediately on adjournment there will be a 60 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 Republican Conference in Room 118. 118 Republican Conference. Death Resolutions. Ladies and Gentlemen, let me have your attention. Death Resolutions."
"House Resolution 1443, offered by Representative Matijevich. Whereas, the Members of the House have learned with great sadness of the recent passing of John J. "Jack" Hill, a former Member of the House of Representatives of the Illinois General Assembly and; whereas, a native of Aurora, Jack Hill served nine consecutive terms as a Democrat Member of the Illinois House of Representatives, representing the 39th District from 1958 to 1976 and; whereas, during his term of office as a Legislator, Jack Hill was a machinist in an Aurora factory and carried the endorsement of the AFL-CIO as a spokesman for organized labor; and, whereas, after serving as a State Legislator, Jack Hill served with honor as the distinguished Mayor of Aurora from 1977 to 1985 and; whereas, Jack Hill also served the public as an Aurora alderman for nine years, as an elected member of the Northeastern Illinois Planning Commission and as Chairman of the Illinois Commission on Intergovernmental Cooperation and; whereas, Jack Hill leaves a proud heritage to mourn his passing in the persons of his loving wife, Velva; his son, David, his daughter Patty; his mother. Marie and his brother, Donald and; whereas, The warm... warmth and love Jack Hill shared with all he knew. He will long be remembered and treasured by friends and family alike; therefore, be it resolved, by the House of Representatives of the 84th General Assembly of the State of Illinois, that we express our sincere sorrow at the loss of Jack Hill; that we join those individuals who mourn the loss of a close friend and colleague; and that to his bereaved family we extend our heartfelt sympathy; and be it further resolved, that a suitable copy 61 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 of this Preamble and Resolution be presented to the family of Jack Hill, as a formal indication of our mutually shared sense of loss and as a further token of our respect the House does now stand adjourned."
"The Gentleman from Lake, Mr. Matijevich."
"Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. First I'd ask leave that all Members be added to the Sponsorship of this Resolution. Second, those of us who served with Jack Hill have lost a real friend. Someone who was very sincere in what he did and sincerely represented the interests of his constituentcy. Anyone who served with Jack Hill can attest to the colorful nature of Jack Hill. He sat down here and it is almost like the good Lord took him at the time of the year when all of us remember him best. Those of you who served today just could not understand the pressures that we were under some years ago. When we worked day and night and when many of us could'nt understand why we were even here and Jack Hill and only the way that he could do it, would put his leg up on the chair and would get red as a beet, would wave his arms and just hollar at the Speaker and say, 'get us out of here'. Get us home to our families and he mentioned his wife and he mentioned his young son, Dave, who was at a young age then. Jack Hill left this Legislature after 18 years because his wife had a bout with cancer and he wanted to be close to her and his youngest son. Dave. And, Jack was so close to us when he spoke that way because he was telling the Speaker our true feelings. Jack's funeral was today. Jack will be remembered for his service to humanity, for his service to all people, for his true convictions in the way he spoke and the way he believed so strongly in those convictions. Again, I say those of us who served with him, Jack we will miss you, and God bless you and God's 62 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 128th Legislative Day June 17, 1986 blessings be with you always and with your fine family too."
"The Lady from DuPage, Miss Cowlishaw."
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Jack Hill was my constituent. He lived in my district. I am a Republican and he was a Democrat. There are somethings that superceed partisan politics. Jack Hill whatever his partisan persuasions, was a good man, a just man, a loving man, and he really cared about the people he served. One day when we die, let us hope the same could be said of each of us who stands here today. Thank you."
"Leave is given for all members to join in the Resolution. The Gentleman from Lake moves for the adoption of the Resolution. All those in favor say 'aye', those opposed 'nay', in the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes have it. And, the House does stand adjourned until the hour of 12:00, Noon, tomorrow." 63 09/02/86 14:39 STATE OF ILLINOIS 84TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DAILY TRANSCRIPTION OF DEBATE INDEX JUNE 17, 1986 PAGE 1 S3-0241 SECOND READING PAGE 4 S3-0263 CONFERENCE PAGE 47 SB-0522 SECOND READING PAGE 5 S3-0553 SECOND READING PAGE 7 SB-0943 SECOND READING PAGE 5 S3-1517 SECOND READING PAGE 7 S3-1517 OUT OF RECORD PAGE 8 -1520 SECOND READING PAGE 10 SB-1548 SECOND READING PAGE 8 SB-1552 SECOND READING PAGE 6. SB-1558 SECOND READING PAGE 9 S6-1558 OUT OF RECORD PAGE 9 SB-1563 SECOND READING PAGE 11 S3-1597 SECOND READING PAGE 10 SB-1601 SECOND READING PAGE 6 S3-1601 HELD ON SECOND PAGE 6 SB-1705 SECOND READING PAGE 11 SB-1706 SECOND READING PAGE 11 SE-1805 SECOND READING PAGE 9 33-1854 SECOND READING PAGE 11 S3-1862 SECOND READING PAGE 11 S3-1929 SECOND READING PAGE 11 SB-1930 SECOND READING PAGE 10 S3-1942 SECOND READING PAGE 6 S3-1993 SECOND READING PAGE 11 SB-2035 SECOND READING PAGE 11 HR-0595 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE 13 HR-0920 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE 41 HR-1370 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE 3 HR-1443 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE 61 SUBJECT MATTER HOUSE TO ORDER PAGE 1 SPEAKER GREIMAN IN THE CHAIR PAGE 1 PRAYER FATHER POTERUCHA PAGE 1 PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE PAGE L ROLL CALL FOR ATTENDANCE PAGE 1 MESSAGES FROM THE SENATE PAGE 2 SPEAKER CURRAN PAGE 2 SPEAKER GREIMAN PAGE 3 CORRECTED COMMITTEE REPORTS PAGE 3 AGREED RESOLUTIONS PAGE 3 GENERAL RESOLUTIONS PAGE 4 AGREED RESOLUTIONS PAGE 60 GENERAL RESOLUTIONS ADJOURNMENT PAGE 60 PAGE 63