Illinois House Floor Debate — February 10, 1995

"Let us pray. Lord, we come before You as humble men and humble women and most of all as Your humble servants. And as Your humble servants we ask You to be our guide, we would ask that You guide our minds, that You would guide our hearts, that You will guide us in our wisdom, guide us in our knowledge and most of all that You will guide us in all understanding of who You are and we ask this Father, in Your Sons name, we pray. Amen." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "We will be led in the Pledge of Allegiance today by Representative Klingler."

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Roll Call for Attendance. Just have a little quiet here so we can recognize the respective Representatives on each side.. Excused absences, Representative Currie? You're recognized to report any excused absences on your side of the aisle, Representative Currie."

"Thank you, Speaker. Let the record show that Representatives Shirley Jones, Laurino and Martinez are all excused today." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "With leave of the House the Journal will so recognize. Representative Cross is recognized to report 1  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 Cross: any excused absences on the Republican side?" "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the Republican side there are no absences today." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The record will so reflect. Mr. Clerk, take the record. There are 115 Members answering the roll and a quorum is present. The House will come to order. Committee Reports."

"Representative Stephens, Chairman from the Committee on Executive, to which the following Bills was referred, action taken on February 10, 1995 reported the same back with the following recommendations: 'do pass as amended' House Bill 202. Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Message from the Senate."

"A Message from the Senate by Mr. Harry, Secretary of the Senate. 'Mr. Speaker, I am directed to inform the House of Representatives that the Senate has concurred with the House of Representatives in the passage of a Bill of the following title: House Bill 200, a Bill for an Act in ...relation to property taxes together with the attached Amendments thereto in the adoption of which I am instructed to ask the concurrence of the House to wit; Senate Amendment #1 to House Bill 200, passed the Senate as amended February 10, 1995." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Lake, Representative Churchill."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, this is just to remind the Members of the Rules Committee that we have a Rules Committee meeting at 11:30 today. It was previously posted, but just in case you missed the posting, I want you to pay attention, 11:30 today we will have a Rules Committee meeting. Thank you." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Before we proceed to Second Reading...two 2  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 Representatives are apparently indicating they wish to address the Chair. The Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I just had two points of inquiry of the Chair except Representative Black) is in my way, as always. First of all did you need another gavel for today?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Let me admonish, Representative Black. Representative Black, tends to get in people's way and SO Bill, would you will just return to your chair to please the Gentleman from Clinton. Proceed."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, did you need a different gavel for todays Session?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "We have a reinforced gavel that I hope will not be necessary today. But, it's fully prepared."

"And secondly, Sir, on Tuesday, this is the fifth day...fourth day that every speaker has refused to go to the Order...or the issues of Motions SO that we can consider truth and sentencing and more police on the street. So, I would ask again, this is the fourth day, fourth consecutive day that the Speaker has refused to go to the Order of Motions so we can discuss these vitally important issues to the people of the State of Illinois and I would ask you, Sir, if that is your intention today to go to the Order of Motions and if it is not, Sir. I would so move right now with the requisite numbers of Members that we change the Order of Business of this House and go to the Order of Motions in order that we can deal with truth and sentencing and more police on the street SO we can deal with these vital issues affecting this state and we don't prolong them because we want to deal with these issues. Thank you." 3  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Certainly take your request under advisement. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Apparently you did not hear Representative Granberg's Motion so I will make it. Under the appropriate House Rule, joined by the appropriate number of people on our side of the aisle, at least 20 hands up in the air. I, hereby move that we go to the Order of Motions immediately, and I ask for a Roll Call Vote on this issue, Sir." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang, you want to restate your Motion if we could have a little bit more order here so we can hear the Motion. We'll be glad to entertain your Motion and I assume you're requesting a...recorded Roll Call Vote on our...on your Motion. If you restate the Motion we'll be glad to consider it."

"Sure. The Motion was according to the appropriate House Rule and I'm joined by the appropriate number of Members on our side of the aisle. I move that we immediately go to the Order of Motions and I would ask for a Roll Call Vote on that Motion if the Chair determines that the Chair will not entertain my Motion." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "If you will examine your Calendar, Representative Lang, there is no Order of Motions listed on the Calendar or any Supplemental Calendar that has been distributed and I don't believe that there has been any. Representative Lang, the Gentleman from Cook."

"Well, if you want to be hyper technical, Mr. Speaker, I guess then I would want to go to the Order of Motions to discharge committee which is on the Calendar on page 4, and on page 5, and on page 6, and on page 7. So, I would amend my Motion to so state." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Motion is, 'Shall we proceed to the 4  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Order of Motions to discharge committee? That's your Motion, is that correct, Representative Lang? All in favor of Representative Lang's Motion vote 'aye'; opposed vote 'no'. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take the record. On this question there are 48 voting 'aye', 64 voting 'no', no 'present' and 6 absences and your Motion fails. House Bills Second Reading, Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 115."

"House Bill 115, a Bill for an Act to amend the Juvenile Court Act of 1987. Second Reading of this Bill. Amendments #1 and 2 were adopted in committee. No Motions filed. All the fiscal notes have been filed." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 119."

"House Bill 119, a Bill for an Act that amends a certain Acts in relation to vital records. Second Reading of the Bill. No Amendments, all fiscal notes have been filed." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 211."

"House Bill 211, a Bill for an Act that amends the Township Code. Second Reading of the Bill. No Amendments, no Motions." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Third Reading. House Bill 270."

"House Bill 270, a Bill for an Act that amends the Sanitary District Act of 1917. Second Reading of the Bill. No Amendments." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Third Reading. House Bill 355."

"House Bill 355, a Bill for an Act that amends the Medical Practice Act of 1987. Amendment #1... Second Reading of the Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in 5  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 committee. No other Amendments, a fiscal note and a judicial note has been requested." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair recognize the Gentleman from Peoria, Representative Leitch."

"Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would move that both those requested notes are inapplicable." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Gentleman from Peoria, Representative Leitch has moved that the fiscal note request or both note requests are inapplicable with respect to House Bill 355. There has been a request for a roll call by Representative Lang and on that question, the Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We've been through this before and I still have not had a satisfactory explanation to my inquiry as to whether or not such a Motion under the Constitution and our House Rules and under the statutes of the State of Illinois is permissible. People keep citing Sections to me..." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "If we could just have a little...I'm not interrupting you Representative Lang, I'm asking for a little cooperation from the chamber, the staff and whoever else is entitled to the House floor, to give Representative Lang your attention so he can make the point that he wishes to make. Would you please have a little decorum and order here."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have still not had a satisfactory explanation, in fact, there's been no explanation which would indicate that such a Motion is permissible under any Rule, statute, or any part of the Constitution of our state and I'm still waiting breathlessly for an answer to that question. Every time such a Motion is made, I'm going to ask this question until 6  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day I get an answer to it. So, now might be provide that answer, Sir." February 10, 1995 a good time to Speaker Johnson, Tim: "I'll consider your request and certainly respond to that forthwith. With respect to your inquiry as to fiscal notes, I direct your attention and the interested Members of the House to 25ILCS5/3. Provides as follows: Whenever the Sponsor of any measure, it's the opinion that no fiscal note is necessary. Any Member of either House may there after request that a note be obtained and in such case the matter shall be decided by a majority of those present and voting in the House of which he is a Member. And Representative Leitch has made that request. As to the inquiry on judicial notes, this again, I'm directing your attention to Act 60, the Judicial Note Act and specifically 25ILCS60/3 and I would cite the specific language from that Section of the statute. Whenever the Sponsor of any measure, the Members of the House may want to listen to this so we don't have to have this question posed and this answer given repeatedly, Representative Lang has asked the question and we're attempting to respond. Whenever the Sponsor of any measure is of the opinion that no Judicial Note is necessary, any Member of either House may thereafter request that a note be obtained and in such case the matter shall be decided by the Majority of those present and voting in the House of which he is a Member. And, Mr. Leitch has made the appropriate Motion in that regard as well. Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the explanation I note in the explanation that both paragraphs you read start, if the Sponsor requests. If that is the case then I would suggest that the Chair take a look at the transcript of yesterdays floor Session and on at least one but perhaps and 7  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 two occasions, three occasions, the Motion to declare the Note Act inapplicable was made by someone other than the Sponsor. One in case, let me finish, Sir. At lease on one case, Representative Ryder made this Motion on somebody else's Bill. Accordingly, I would move that the Chair hold that in all three cases yesterday where Bills were moved to Third Reading where the Motion was made by someone other than the Sponsor that that was a void act and that all three of those Bills be returned to Second Reading immediately and I would so move that the Chair do that." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The request is out of order in this particular Bill 355, Representative Leitch is the primary Sponsor and has made the appropriate Motion. The Motion is, 'Shall...the question is...the Motion is, made by the Gentleman from Peoria, Representative Leitch that the request for a fiscal note, judicial note as to House Bill 355 are inapplicable?' All in favor vote 'aye'; opposed vote 'no'. Voting is open. Have all voted who wish. Have all voted who wish. Have all voted who wish. Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question there are 64 voting in the 'affirmative', 50 'no' votes, no 'present', 4 not voting. And Representative Leitch's Motion carries. Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 481. The Sponsor wishes to take that out of the record, so we will move then to House Bill 538. House Bill 538."

"House Bill 538, a Bill for an Act that amends the Code of Civil Procedure. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments. Floor Amendments #1 and 2 are in Rules." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 564."

"House Bill 564, a Bill for an Act that amends 8  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 Criminal Code of 1961. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments. No Floor Amendments." Clerk Johnson, Tim: "Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 660. House Bill 660."

"House Bill 660, a Bill for an Act that amends the Higher Education Students Assistance Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments. No Floor Amendments." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Third Reading. Now, we will return apparently by agreement, to House Bill 481. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 481."

"House Bill 481, a Bill for an Act that amend the Illinois Athletic Trainers Practice Act. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendment. A fiscal note has been filed. A state mandate note has been requested." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair would recognize then the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang with respect to House Bill 481."

"Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Not really on House Bill 481 but my light has been on for some time, trying to get an answer to my inquiry previously. If you will recall, Sir. I made a Motion to have three Bills that were moved to Third Reading yesterday, improperly, moved back to Second Reading. You stated on the record, Sir, that the reason that the Sponsor could move to have a Note Act held inapplicable is in the statutes. I indicated to you, Sir, that yesterday three Bills were moved to Third Reading after a person who is not a Sponsor, moved to have the Note Act held inapplicable. Accordingly those were void Motions, accordingly the Note Act was not inapplicable and accordingly all three Bills went to Third Reading in 9  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 violation of the statutes of the State of Illinois. I'm simply asking that you move those Bills back to Second Reading and handle it in the appropriate manner before you send the Bills to Third Reading, and I've made a Motion to do that, Sir." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The question has been asked and answered and your inquiry is untimely. The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg on House Bill 481. Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the...I would move to withdraw the note request on House Bill 481 after discussion with the Sponsor. There is no fiscal impact on the state in regard to this legislation." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Thank you, Sir. With leave of the House, we'll do so. House Bill 481, Third Reading. The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Currie."

"Thank you, Speaker. Late news on the attendance front would you, please let the record show that Representative Kaszak is not here today." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "With leave of the House the Journal will so indicate, Representative Kaszak was reported earlier as 'present' and is apparently an excused absence and the Journal will so reflect. Will be in recess for a very short time, at ease for a very short time. The Chair would observe that this isn't the baseball season yet and without Representative McPike on one side and a Cub advocate on our side, we don't have any banter to fill up this times at ease and we are simply going to have to maintain decorum during that time. Thank you, for your cooperation. Now proceed to the Order of House Bills, Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 82. We are on the Order of Third Reading." 10  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995

"House Bill 82, a Bill for an Act that amends a child labor law. Third Reading of the Bill." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Pedersen. Representative Pedersen."

"Excuse me, Mr... Mr. Speaker, the name is Pedersen. Thank you." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "I stand corrected."

"House Bill... Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 82 has to do with child labor laws..." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "If we could have...if we could have a little more order so we can hear Representative Pedersen's explanation of the Bill. The Chair and Members would appreciate it. Representative Pedersen."

"In an article in...written by Ralph Rylind associate professor of economics at Robert Morris College, he says that the reality is, that a lot of kids are safer working in a restaurant kitchen than they are on the streets. Probably a lot of you are familiar with the big who ha that was made last year about the Savanah Cardinals. They had a bat boy named Tommy McCoy who said, and the labor department said that he couldn't work after 7:00 p.m. as a bat boy for the Savanah Cardinals. The Clinton Administration commented...as follows, but you have to make judgements and this administration wants to protect children. But in a way that doesn't detract from our enforcement of other laws. There was a lot of discussion about it and they finally after much negative publicity, 'Robert Riesh' announced a reconsideration of the regulation and then its suspension for the remainder of the baseball season. He said application of the law to McCoy looked silly. I have a letter from a constituent who says 11  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 that, recently based on an anonymous tip we were audited by the Illinois Department of Labor for illegedly employing minors to work in the skating rink. The audit revealed and we freely admitted that two young females, age 14 did in fact, assist on week-ends to hand out roller skates, serve pizza and sofa drinks at birthday parties and occasionally sell small trinkets to skaters. The girls were not on our payroll and we did not reimburse them for these services other than provide free skating and food from the snack bar. My daughter and her husband managed the rink, one of the girls is my grandaughter. The other girl is the daughter of our senior manager who spends many hours, 6 days a week at the rink. Both girls were at the rink on weekends as a way for the parents to babysit them and allowing them to assist in non-hazardous tasks, was actually a learning experience. The main problem stems from Section 13-1 of the Child Labor Law which includes skating rinks as a hazardous occupation. I'm not sure what these girls were doing could be defined as hazardous anymore than children over 10 are allowed to operate farm equipment or youngsters riding skateboards..." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative...Representative Pedersen, could I interrupt just briefly to indicate that House Rules Committee is now meeting in the chambers behind us. Speaker's conference chambers behind us. Proceed."

"...skateboards on the public streets. Another curious thing is that an ice skating rink owned and operated by a school or unit of government is exempted from this section. These girls can obtain a work permit and work at our local ice arena, not three miles away. What this Bill does, is eliminate skating rinks from the list of hazardous occupation that...that prevents young people from working 12  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 in those places. The child labor laws of 1946 regulate the work of children in the work place who are under age 16. It requires work permits and they have workout schedules for maximum hours and what have you while their in school and so forth. The law also prohibits minors from working in certain hazardous occupations, ranging from work in a mine or sawmills to work as a bellboy. One of those prohibited occupations is employment in or around a skating or ice skating rink except those rinks owned and operated by a school or unit of local government. It's our contention that in this particular situation, we need to eliminate skating rinks because they really are not hazardous occupations. I'm not sure what...why they may have been considered hazardous at one point, but certainly today, as far as our rinks are concerned I think that it's time to change an out voted law. So, I move 'do pass'." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "At least two of the Members has indicated it's hard with the den in the House to understand Representative Pedersen, so if we could have a little more quiet so that we could understand the proponents and opponents, it would be appreciated. The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from St. Clair, with respect to questions or comments, Representative Hoffman."

"Yes, Representative, the mic was kinda muffled. Could you repeat what's in the Bill?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Under the present child labor laws, roller skating rinks are considered a hazardous occupation and young people ages 14 to 16, are...can't work there, they can't have a job there. And we would like to eliminate it because we don't feel that skating rinks are hazardous." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Hoffman the Gentleman from 13  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day St. Clair." February 10, 1995

"Does this, with regard to the skating rink, or this only apply to family members or the owners of the skating rink, or does it apply to everybody?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"It would apply to anyone those...in that age group." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry, Representative Hoffman?"

"Yes, it's my understanding that all we're doing is, we would be removing skating rink from dangerous activity. In addition to skating rink being defined as...working at a skating rink as a dangerous activity is bowling alley, poolroom, billiard room, exhibition park, or place of amusement. What is the difference between a skating rink and another place of amusement when it comes to allowing younger kids to work in these type of establishments with regards to being dangerous?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well, I had a...I had a specific request from a constituent who's affected by this and our interest only has to do with this specific reference to skating rinks." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry, Representative Hoffman?"

"Skating rink, would that mean both roller skating an ice skating?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Yes." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Hoffman."

"Is there a minimum age that you would have to be to work at a skating rink, could you be nine? Eight, nine, ten." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"The labor law...what we're talking about here has to do with children ages 14 to 16. There are all kinds of 14  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 requirements as far as work permits and hours and that sort of things, they have to be satisfied as far as roller rinks are concerned and just as it would be for any other job at that age." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry?"

"Does federal law have any applicability in this instance, doesn't it preempt us in this area of...of allowing us to reduce minimum wage?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"This has nothing to do with minimum wage, this is just Illinois law, the federal law does not apply here." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Monique Davis." Davis, M.: "Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Sponsor indicates he will yield. But apparently Representative Hoffman has another question, I'll return to you in a moment. Representative Davis, go ahead." Davis, M.: "Representative, you state that...you want to change this child labor law based upon the problem of one individual family in your district. Is that correct?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well, that's how it came to my attention but I think what their talking about...addresses a general problem of roller rinks are not really considered hazardous anymore, if they once were I'm nor sure in what way." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it's really important and significant that we recognize, it is not just a skating rink we're talking about. We're talking about the repeal of child labor laws and that is what we should all be very careful about. Repealing child labor laws that 15  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 were put into effect to protect children against unscrupulous people, against people who prey upon youth. Even though many times today, skating rinks are family affairs and that's where families go for entertainment or taking their children for recreation, but I think the issue here is repealing child labor laws. And I believe in the General Assembly we must stop passing laws based upon one individual situation. Now, we're suppose to do the best for the most people and not pass laws based upon one person and one incident. Thank you, Sir." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Thank you. The Chair recognizes the Lady from Lake, Representative Moore." Moore, A.: "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the Bill. I know that many of the Representatives in this room are to young to remember this, but when I was a youngster at 10, I can recall my mother telling me the last place that I was allowed to go was the roller rink. Like it was something really mysterious and naughty and for years we were prohibited from even going into the place. Now that roller blades and roller rinks are places of recreations where the light is bright there are not this really seedy type operation that they used to be, I think Representative Pedersen's Bill is appropriate and should be supported. Thanks very much." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair would return to the Gentleman from St. Clair, Representative Hoffman. I would...indicated the time that I recognized Representative Davis, you had approximately two minutes left on your five minute inquiry period."

"Thank you, Speaker. Does this...or is it your position that after we...if we were to pass this Bill regarding skating rinks do you plan on making any other changes with 16  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 regard to the minimum age and the child labor laws? In other words, I guess it's a concern for many, many people on this side of the aisle is maybe this isn't SO bad but the concern is the total limitation of these types of things and you attempting to come back and further...push these types of proposals." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen in response."

"I have no such plans." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Flowers."

"Representative Pedersen, I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield?" Johnson, Tim: "The Gentleman indicates that he'll yield."

"Representative Pedersen, as a skater myself, I would just like to inquire. Is this Bill stating that a child at the age of 14 would be able to work in a skating rink. Is this the purpose of this Bill?" Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Yes, all we're doing is eliminating an exception in the law. I...you have to understand that children age 14 to 16, there are still all kinds of requirements and oversight on what children that age do in any occupation. You know, they're in school, they monitor the number of hours they can work while they are in school, they have to have permits all that sort of thing." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry? Representative Flowers."

"To the Bill, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Representative Pedersen, I would like to commend you for bring forth this Legislation. I remember at the ripe age of 10, I too, was hanging out at a skating rink. Not too long ago. Not too long ago and I think it's a good form of exercise and I think it's lively for the children 17  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 in light of what's happening in the world today and I commend you and would insist you put my name on this Bill. Thank you." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Sponsor indicates that he will yield."

"Thank you. Representative I want to make sure I understand your Bill. When you explained it the first time it took you about 30 minutes and when Representative Hoffman asked you to repeat it, it took you about 14 seconds. So, I don't know what the difference was but let me see if I understand this. You're...what you're doing here is exempting skating rinks from this Section regarding children under 16. Is that correct?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"For hazardous occupations on children under age 16...ages 14 to 16." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang."

"So, that goes for ice skating rinks and roller skating rinks, Sir?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen in response."

"Yes." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang."

"We're only deleting the reference to some roller...to skating rinks, yeah." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang."

"Well, Sir, I a little confused. I noticed that you're not removing the part of the Bill that talks about children under 16 working where there's power driven machinery. You're not eliminating that, correct?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen." 18  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"That's February 10, 1995 correct and that includes, you know, sawmills and coal mines and all that sort of thing." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Well, it not the case, Sir that this machine called the Zambodi is the machine that that does the ice at the ice skating rink and isn't that a power driven piece of machinery?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well, I assume that they have to have an operator of those things that is qualified to operate them. I can't imagine a 14 year old girl operating...she probable needs a drivers license, a chauffeurs license and a permit to...to drive a semi-truck." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang."

"Well, Sir, I don't think a Zambodi is a truck and I don't know of any law that requires them to have a license. It seems to me under this Bill, Sir, would you not say that it's at lease possible that a 14 year old girl could be driving a Zambodi around at some ice skating rink and would you not think that that was inconsistence with your Bill. Should it be cleaned up a little, Sir?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Your answer to your three questions is, no, no, and no." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang, further inquiry."

"Thank you. Who is this Bill for, Sir. Who came to you and asked you to sponsor this Bill. I don't think it's a big issue for you personally." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well, it's an important issue to me because I did in my opening remarks, I did talk about how much healthier it is for young people to be working rather than our on the 19  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day streets February 10, 1995 and so, you know, in that sense it's important but I have a constituent that brought this to my attention and I think it's a valuable contribution on the part of their grassroots." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry? Representative Lang."

"Thank you. If a 14 year old child driving this Zambodi around the ice skating rink be covered under workers' compensation, Sir?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"I assume that...that all businesses carry work comp insurance if they're employees they would be covered." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Well if they're going to be covered..." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Excuse me, if we could just have a little...a little more quiet, a little more decorum SO we can all understand and listen to Representative Lang inquiry. Representative Lang, the Gentleman from Cook."

"Thank you. I prefer that your admonishment not be taken from my time, Sir. Let me ask you this, if workers' compensation is going to cover these 14 year old girls driving this Zambodi, don't you think that will raise workers' compensation rates and isn't part of your Republican fast tract to attempt to lower worker's compensation rates?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"I question whether there will be any claims it's such a non hazardous occupation." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Well, Sir, I would submit to you that if a 14 year old girl is driving a Zambodi around when the Bill says that a power driven machinery is suppose to be exempted but you seem to allow it under what you're trying 20  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 to do, it seems to me we're going to get a lot more claims. To the Bill, Mr. Speaker. I understand what the Representative is trying to do, it's nice to find jobs for young...for youth but the truth is that what this really is is the Anti-Zambodi Bill and it seems to me that the Bill is ill founded simply because it is inconsistent. What we're going to do is drive up workers' compensation rates, certainly none of us want to do that. Certainly bad for business in Illinois, the ice skating rinks of Illinois are going to pay workers' compensation through the nose if we pass this Bill. So, I would suggest very strongly that we protect 14 year old young men and women driving those Zambodi's around and I would vote 'no'." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you. Will the Gentleman yield? Representative I know you are well intentioned in this language in what you are attempting to do. But I have a couple of questions on the technical nature of the drafting. In Section 7, Item 1, you talk how this...this would impact public messengers, bowling alleys, pool rooms, billiard rooms, et cetera. So, this is intended that 14 year old kids can work in bowling alleys, is that correct?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"No." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry, Representative Granberg?"

"That is not your intention, Representative?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"No, we're talking about a healthy place of work for young people and that's...that's a very positive thing and I don't plan to...extend this to any other of those exemptions." 21  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day Speaker Johnson, Tim: February 10, 1995 "Representative Granberg."

"So, so a child would not be permitted to work in any other type of facility, just skating rinks?" Speaker Johnson, Tim:

"Yes." "Representative Pedersen." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry?"

"Yes, he would or...yes, he wouldn't?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"What...what was Representative, sure to what extent.' the answer...I'm sorry, what was the answer, you said, yes I'm not Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen.

Pedersen.' Pedersen: "Would you repeat the question?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Granberg."

Representative Granberg: "Would a 14 year old child be permitted to work in any other facility besides a skating rink in the content House Bill 82?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen." Pedersen: I of "In all places of work where they're permitted to work. mean, there are other...there are some exemptions here and so they wouldn't be able to work there and they would be able to work in any occupation that the law allows." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry, Representative Granberg?"

"What are the other exceptions, Representative, that's why I'm wondering if we should expand this keep this with skating rinks or try to be more definitive in the definition of skating rinks. So, what other exceptions are there currently?" or Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well, you're looking at the law why don't you just read them. It's a very short list there." 22  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquire, Representative Granberg?"

"Yes, Representative. So, this would just...allow 14 year olds to work in ice skating rinks and roller skating rinks, is that correct?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Yes. Ages 14 to 16 as allowed under the labor law." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Granberg."

"Would that restrict...what would be the work hours in that set of circumstances. Would a child have to work, say after midnights if that was the normal hours of business for that operation?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well the child labor law spells all that out, I mean, I think there are lateness of hours and all those things are considered when they get their permit and I don't...it would be the same as any other occupation that's permitted." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Granberg."

"Well, Representative that's...I don't know what those restrictions are, do you understand what those restrictions are, please, Sir?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"They're the same restrictions in the law that Representative Davis was talking about. We're protecting the children at that age...from undo...bad experiences I guess in the work place. But, it's whatever the law provides now, would apply to them." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Granberg."

"Representative, that's the question. I do not know what the law provides and with due respect, Sir. This is your Bill so, before I vote on it, and I would like to vote 'yes' on this. I would like to know what restriction will 23  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 be placed on that child in that scope of employment." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well, this is not a debate on the overall child labor laws. We have in our analysis here, it says, the child labor laws of 1946, regulate the work of children in the work place or under the age of 16. It requires work permits for employers to employ child workers. Maintains the schedule of maximum hours that 14 and 15 year olds may work daily and weekly when in school is in session as well as when it is not in session. And sets standards for meal and break times. Now, that gives you a general idea of what this overall law applies...that applies to all other occupations says." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Granberg one last inquiry, your time is just about to expire. Representative Granberg. Do you wish to proceed? Proceed."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Representative Murphy, I believe...if you will acknowledge him he would yield his time to me. Representative Pedersen, if you have a 14 year old child who is employed at a skating facility, and I think that is well and good. If the hours of that skating facility are until 3:00 in the morning during the week days can that child work until 3:00 in the morning during the week day?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen. We have extended your time by one minute, Representative Granberg."

"I have to statute here, I'll send it over and you can read it. It talks about, you know, number of hours per week and all that sort of thing. And we're really not debating that law, we're talking about roller rinks and an exemption." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Granberg." 24  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

February 10, 1995 "Representative Pedersen, what I'm concerned with is that by the time your get that statute to me where I can read it, you might take a vote on this and I would really like to vote 'yes' on this. If you could just please answer the question, I would appreciate it. Just read it to me, Representative. I have upmost faith in you." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Granberg, your time has expired twice. I'll give Representative Pedersen the opportunity to respond to your last inquiry. Representative Pedersen."

"I'll read it. Slowly and clearly. No minor under 16 years of age shall be employed, permitted or allowed to work in any gainful occupation mentioned in Section 1 of this Act for more than six consecutive days in any one week or more than 48 hours in any one week, or more than eight hours in any one day or be SO employed, permitted or allowed to work between 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. from Labor Day until June 1, or between 9:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. from June 1, until Labor Day." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Thank you, Representative. The Chair recognizes the Gentlemen from Peoria, Representative Saltsman."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield, please?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Sponsor indicates he will yield."

"Yes, Representative Pedersen. I was on the Labor Committee when this Bill was presented and I believe you mentioned that these were children of parents who are in management of..." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "If we could have some attention to Representative Saltsman making an inquiry."

"These were children of the management of this roller 25  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 rink that really had the problem?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Yes. They...one was a grandaughter and the other was the daughter of the manager. They were both age 14 and the parents appreciated having them there so they didn't have to get babysitter." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry, Representative Saltsman?"

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Myself and Representative Leitch, Representative Leitch, in our district we had a similar problem in an apple orchard. In an apple orchard and that's a lot more healthier place to work, you know, than a skating rink where a person was under age, it was a grandchild of the people who owned the place. And it's been a long family program in our area as long I've been there 60 years. I would be able to vote for this Bill if you would amend it to members of the immediate family, including grandchildren and if there's something illegal about that I don't know, I've been talking here with Representative McGuire from Joliet and we seem to think that these people should be exempt if there are members of that immediate family. I mean you can't keep these...same way in the gas station, I have seen where kids have went out and wiped off the windows when their dad owned a service station in the area, things like this. We've got to let these kids make some pocket money and I was fortunate enough to do it when I was that age but, that is not steady employment. I would like to see you bring this Bill back to Second Reading beings this involved a family member of the ownership or managerialship and in our case, in the Peoria area it involved family members too. I think you could get a lot of votes from this side of the aisle if we would do that and limit to the immediate 26  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day family." February 10, 1995 Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Thank you, Representative. The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Parke."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. To expedite the process. I would like to call for the question." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Parke has moved...the question be put, I request Representative Parke if you might do the courtesy of allowing me recognize the Gentleman Effingham, Representative Hartke has had his light on for some time. That's the only light that's still on, would you be willing to withdraw your request and then proceed to a roll call?"

"I will yield to the will of the Chair." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Thank you, Sir. The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Hartke."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "The Sponsor indicates that he will yield."

"I have a...I have a couple of questions. I don't know, I'm not experiencing this in my area but...do you have a shortage of labor at roller rinks and so forth and a high employment rate where you cannot find people who are unemployed, over the age of 16 that could possible work in these rinks?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well, most of these jobs, you know, handing out roller skates and that sort of thing are pretty much, you know, first entry type of occupation and I would doubt that we would have any problem of unemployment for the people that you're talking about." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry, Representative Hartke?" 27  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Yes, I February 10, 1995 have several. I don't agree or disagree that it's good exercise and it's great to employ these youngsters and so forth, but in the statutes it talks about that individuals under the age of 16 years old shall not be employed in places such as exhibition parks, billiard rooms, pool halls, bowling alleys, but it also says, or a place of amusement. Now, if this roller rink has some of these machines, these coin operated machines for entertainment, does that mean that that individual establishment would have to give up those type of machines in order to employ these instruments of entertainment to 14 and 15 year olds. They either cannot hire those 14 and 15 year olds because those are instruments of entertainment. Do you follow..." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen. Representative Pedersen."

"Well, I think that skating rinks are certainly places of amusement and they were specifically exempted and this particular form of amusement we're just trying to get rid of. In the law." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Further inquiry, Representative Hartke?"

"Yes. Would that mean that they would have to give up their pinball machines and arcade games and so forth?" Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"You would probably have to talk to the Department of Labor about that, I image they have some notions about it." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Hartke."

"Yes. This...we're working on this piece of legislation now and I think this is a very important point. You're the Sponsor of this legislation, would they not have to give up those because that's what the law says. Now, you're trying to change it in order to make that change." 28  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Pedersen."

"Well, it's your question. You said that these amusement devises are a problem, you're saying they're the problem, we don't know whether those amusement devises are a problem at all. So, I mean until you are able to tell me they are a problem, why then I don't think that it's germane." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Representative Hartke, I want to recognize you again and also indicate that quiet that falls around your question indicates not only respect for you but decorum in the chambers, so we appreciate that."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You know, I've got one more question and that bothers me a little bit about this legislation. I do know that at many skate rinks, especially one here located in the Capitol City, has had numerous police calls in the last year. Where gangs hang out and SO forth and I'm not sure that we in the General Assembly should put the youth of today under the age of 16 in that type of atmosphere in those situations. Now, maybe there are communities where it is a good healthy exercise environment for young people, I know that I use to skate years ago, roller skate and I think it is good exercise. But, I think we ought to proceed with a whole lot of caution before we lower the child labor standards in the State of Illinois for this instance then another instance and so forth. Reluctantly, I'm going to have to vote 'no'. I would like to spend more time discussing this piece of legislation on some of those issues that I've addressed here. Thank you." Johnson, Tim: "Any further discussion? Further discussion? No further discussion, the Chair recognizes the Gentlemen from Cook, Representative Pedersen to close." 29  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

February 10, 1995 "It may be true that there are some places of work in this state that are especially healthy in all occupations. It may be true that there may be an occasional roller rink that has not got the best...atomsphere but, we still have parents and they'd know whether they would want their child working in any place, they will exercise their discretion on that. I would just point one out...one final thing. Roller rinks today have roller blade hockey, they have leagues. They're tied in with the U.S. Amateur Confederation. The governing body for both ice and roller skating and these organizations are...they are involved in all kind of competitions and it's really a changed occupation if it was truly, say morally hazardous at one time but times have changed, we need to update the law and our children need the discipline and the good benefit that they get from having jobs and this would certainly be a fine place from them to do that and I urge an 'aye' vote." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "They question is, 'Shall House Bill 82 pass?' All in favor vote 'aye'; opposed vote 'no'. The voting in open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question there are 54 voting in the 'affirmative', 52 voting in the negative, 6 voting 'present' and 6 absence. The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Pedersen."

"Mr. Speaker, I would like to put this Bill on Postponed Consideration." Speaker Johnson, Tim: "Your request is granted. Mr. Clerk, move to the Order of Concurrence. Speaker Daniels in the Chair."

"Speaker Daniels in the Chair. Committee Reports." 30  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"Committee Report from Representative Churchill, Chairman from the Committee on Rules to which the following Bills were referred, action taken on February 10, 1995, reported the same back with the following recommendations: 'do approve for consideration', Senate Joint Resolution #22, House Bill 200 on the Order of Concurrence with Senate Amendment #1."

"Supplemental Calendar announcement."

"Supplemental Calendar #1 is being distributed."

"Supplemental Calendar #1, Order of Concurrence. Supplemental Calendar #1, Order of Concurrence. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Kubik is recognized for a Motion."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all I'd like to ask the Speaker leave to present House Bill 200."

"Leave is granted."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I think most of you are aware of what House Bill 200 is. It's the underlying Bill of the tax cap proposal for the County of Cook. I would move to concur in Senate Amendment #1 to House Bill 200. Senate Amendment #1 for the understanding of the Body would make a change in the underlying Bill of the effective date for bonds that have been issued. In the original Bill the date was January 1st of 1995. In this Amendment, that day has been changed to March 1st of 1995. Let me, before I respond to questions, let me make a couple of observations. When we passed the tax limitation law for the collar counties in 1991 the Bill was passed in July of 1991, but it did not take effect until October of that year. In that intervening time, there were, there was a, probably the best word to describe it was a frenzy of bond sales of local units of government 31  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 rushing to beat the cap by issuing bonds. Any many of them, quite honestly, issued bonds without even really having a reason to do it; they just wanted to be sure they beat the cap. When we discussed the issue of extending the cap to Cook County, the concern was expressed by many people that we should not allow this sort of bonding frenzy to take place. So, the decision was to limit how bonds could be introduced and we, in passing House Bill 200 out of the House, wanted to be very clear to all of Illinois that we did not want this bond frenzy to take place. The Senate has come back with an Amendment to allow for those bonds in Cook County which have been authorized but have not been issued, to proceed. And we agree with that proposition and would think that that is an Amendment we should support. We...I would ask my colleagues to concur in Senate Amendment #1 so that we can send the Bill to the Governor's desk and finally, after a very, very, very long struggle, bring tax caps to the citizens of Cook County. Mr. Speaker, I would again move to concur in Senate Amendment #1 and would be happy to respond to any questions."

"The Gentleman has moved to concur in Senate Amendment #1 to House Bill 200. Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Rock Island, Representative Brunsvold."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Kubik there are a number of referendums pending in the February 28th primary; one in Bloome Township, one in Flossmore Elementary District and one in J. S. Morton High School District, which I think is yours. How is this Bill, if passed, going to effect those referendums?" 32  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Representative Kubik." February 10, 1995

"If the bonds are issued prior to March 1st, they would be exempt from the cap."

"Representative Brunsvold."

"Representative Kubik, I didn't hear that. What did you say."

"Excuse me. Ladies and Gentlemen, could the participants in the discussions all over the floor, excuse me, could we have come order so the Gentlemen can hear the debate here? Representative Kubik, could you repeat the answer?"

"Representative, if the school districts pass the referendums and issue the bonds prior to March 1st, they would be exempt."

"Representative Brunsvold."

"The tax cap, if passed and signed by the Governor, is going to affect a lot of districts Mr. Kubik. Just to give you some examples of school districts that are going to be affected; Norridge, for example, is going to lose $684,000."

"Representative Kubik. Representative Brunsvold."

"Burbank about $3 million, and I've got about four or five pages of these school districts that are going to lose money. How are we going to make that money up to the school districts if we pass this Bill?"

"Representative Kubik."

"Representative Brunsvold, I'd like to give you two answers to first of all I'd like to point out to you that I was in error in my first answer. If a school district, under the existing law, if a school district passes a referendum it is a referendum bond issue, whether March 1st 33  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 is there or not. They are allowed to extend those bonds so I was in error. The, both of the instances you cited were referendum bond issues. These, the cap would, the other issue is non-referendum bonds, but in the case of referendums, they are allowed under existing law to proceed with the cap. Insofar as the...your question, the tax limitation law that we have proposed allows for a 5% increase in the extension of these local units over the previous year. Now, many units in Cook County extend...levied double digit numbers and so they will not be able to capture all of that revenue. They will be allowed to capture 5%, which I might point out is double the rate of inflation."

"Representative Brunsvold."

"To the Bill Mr. Speaker."

"To the Bill."

"This Bill should have great concern to everyone on the floor. The tax cap issue here is going to drive those school districts in the suburbs, as they have in the past year...few years, and it's going to drive Cook County down here for more money. We as legislators are going to have to make that decision about funding education. That is going to be a tough decision for a lot of us because that's  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 15th Legislative Day the... Representative Schakowsky."

"Sorry Speaker, thank you. I rise to reluctantly support this concurrence Motion after having fought as long and as hard as possible for a more rational approach which would actually reduce property taxes rather than simply limit their growth. Throughout my years in the legislature and for many years before as an advocate for senior citizens, I have fought to reduce the regressive and inequitable property tax. But tax caps addresses symptom, not the cause of the property tax crisis in Illinois. Property taxes are too high and and their too high for the simple and obvious reason that the state has renigged on it commitment and responsibility to fund education. Those of us who support comprehensive tax reform that will provide both property tax relief that's real reductions and not mere restrictions on the growth of property taxes and adequate funding for our schools must use the inevitable passage of this bill as a springboard to continue our fight for real tax reform. I voted no two weeks ago on the patently unfair and almost certainly unconstitutional Bill which passed out of this chamber which attempted to undo bond issues that were offered in good faith by many school and park districts, including at least two in my district. I am able to cast an 'aye' vote today because these provisions have been eliminated from the Bill before us. I will join most of my colleagues today in supporting this Bill. But none of us should pretend that by passing this measure we have done something truly meaningful to relieve the burden of property taxes on the citizens of this state. Thank you."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Balthis." 35  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"Thank you Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Kubik the last time we spoke on this issue on the House floor we talked about the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District, the Deep Tunnel Tarp Project; at time you indicated to me that the language in that Bill's intent was to allow that project to go forward and bonds could be sold for that project because it commenced prior to 1991. Is that still your understanding and the intent of this legislation?"

"Representative Kubik."

"Representative Balthis, that is my understanding in discussing it with the Department of Revenue and others and the answer to your question is yes and our intent would not to be, not to stop any of those bonds from proceeding because the project had commenced prior to this legislation."

"Representative Balthis."

"By commenced, are we talking about the entire project, because some of that entire project has not commenced yet?"

"Representative Kubik."

"The answer is yes, yes."

"Representative Balthis."

"So it is your understanding and it is the intent of this legislation that that entire project, bonds can be sold even though parts of it has not been commenced yet, and those bonds will not be affected by this tax cap legislation?"

"Representative Kubik."

"Representative my understanding is based on your question, the answer is yes that they can proceed, because the project, the full project had commenced prior to 1991." 36  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Representative Balthis."

"Mr. Speaker, to the Bill."

"To the Bill."

February 10, 1995 "As many of you know on this House floor I've been an outspoken opponent of tax caps. I still feel that it is not going to be long-term something in the best interest of our residents, but 84% of the people in my district felt it was something that was necessary. I, as I did last week, intend to vote for this Bill. I also intend to work with each and every one of you to make sure that we stop unfunded mandates in this House and that we stop the State of Illinois from passing unfunded mandates and with that, I will sit down and ask everyone to vote 'aye'."

"Further discussion? The Lady from Cook, Representative Murphy." Murphy, A.: "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Our taxpayers are saying whether it's state tax dollars or local property tax dollars, local spending is just too high and growing too fast. This is a first in a series of going to the core, finding out, examining this over reliance on property taxes. Spending is too high. It is growing too fast. This will limit the growth of spending. But to all of those in this chamber that have brought up the things like unfunded mandates, or more importantly a change in the school aid formula, that too shall also be visited some time forward. You know why? Because so many of us know that we have to revisit that. The dollars coming from the state with regard to education belong to all the taxpayers of the state and it's been many years since we've revisited that formula. And there are many that have shown an interest in this chamber of wanting to examine the inequities that result from that formula. But, again today 37  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 I encourage your support of this first step in the over reliance of property taxes and limit the growth that we have seen too much of late. Thank you."

"Further Discussion? The Gentleman from Macoupin, Representative Hannig."

"Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. Just to reiterate the point that my seatmate made, and I think that the Lady just made, this is a Bill that will have an impact eventually on the state aid formula. For every dollar of tax relieve we give in Cook County, a portion of that means that there's less money available to those schools. Now, we've already done this in the collar counties a couple of years ago. And already those people are in and the legislature and introducing Bills asking that they get more state aid because we've imposed caps on their local schools. Now, I don't think that we should be adding more people to that equation asking for more money from state government to fund and make up for their caps. And I'm afraid as a downstater we're actually going to put ourself into a no win situation if we do this. Yes, we will be revisiting the school aid formula as the Lady just said. We will be changing the state aid formula and will be doing it to the disadvantage of all the downstate legislative districts, regardless of their party. So I would ask my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to take a long term look at this to consider that what we do here today does have an effect on what will happen in this Body in days and years to come. It will have an adverse affect on us as downstaters on both sides of the aisle and we should be voting no."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Will, Representative Wennlund." 38  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This ought to be the easiest vote anybody in this assembly could ever make. When else do you have an opportunity to say to the 83% of those Cook County voters, 83% said yes, we want tax caps and we want them now, we're fed up with high property taxes. That's a bigger percentage than want tough on crime Bills. This ought to be the easiest yes vote you ever make. How many times has their been a referendum where the voters overwhelmingly, 83% said look, here's what we want. The vote no flies right in their face. They say I don't care what you want 83% of Cook County voters, we're not going to give you tax Caps. This is the first opportunity they've had to speak, they've spoke and this House ought to speak and say fine, you want um, you got um. It's time to vote yes and be done with this issue."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Hartke."

"Thank you very much Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Kubik, will this measure lower property taxes?"

"Representative Kubik:"

"Representative, the measure slows the growth of property taxes. It actually slows the growth of extensions. Now, how an individual property taxpayer's house is assessed, you know, that sort of thing, it's hard to tell. So, in some cases it, it may do that. In other cases it may not. So, I've always said, Representative, that this is a property tax limitation on growth. I've never claimed that it cuts property taxes." 39  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"Representative Hartke."

"To the Bill Mr. Speaker and now I'd like to make a couple comments on what's been said here. You know, last fall we passed the property tax freeze for senior citizens and my office, like yours, was flooded with phone calls because many seniors felt that this was going to be a real panacea for them. They were going to get a tax break. It was going to be an instant panacea for them. Well, you and I both know that it will not. It just limits their taxes, maybe, because it was a partial smoke and mirrors and so forth. Representative Wennlund spoke before and said this is one of the easiest votes that we can make here. I don't think so, simply because for a downstater we know that the school aid formula was designed several years ago for one purpose and that was to evenly distribute the money that we have for education in the state of Illinois between those that have and those that have not. It was a Robin Hood theory, steal from the rich and give to those poor districts that needed the money. Representative Wennlund spoke and said this should an easy vote because 83% of the people are demanding that we vote for it. Well I remember when Poncious Pilot said, what's your choice? And they said, give us Barabus. Well that's almost what this is like because we downstate know that's not what is good for us downstate. We know that this is going to allow for many of the school districts in northern Illinois who are much wealthier than ours to receive some portion of state aid increase and I know and you know there's only so much money in that pot. Those dollars are going to come from somewhere and if those dollars are going to come out of southern Illinois, we're going to be shortened in our effort for education in Illinois. I know there is a need 40  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 for property tax reform in the State of Illinois, maybe the elimination of property taxes as they did in Michigan, but I think until we're ready for that and until we sit down and talk seriously about that, I'm going to have to reluctantly vote no on this issue and I would hope that many of me downstate colleagues, both Democrat and Republican think real hard and serious about this. My colleague, predecessor, Judge Brummer now, urged me when I came here he said any time that there's a tax increase for Chicago or any place, let them tax themselves because if they don't they're going to be coming to the state to solve their problems. So any time any of you want an increase for your local governments, whether it be township or permission for this and that fine, if you want to tax yourself for your area, then go right ahead. But when we limit those taxes for you, you're still gonna, have to deliver those services and you're going to come into the school aid formula and you're gonna take money from other areas that don't have. So let's keep the Robin Hood theory in place. Let's help those people that cannot help themselves and let's vote no on this piece of legislation. Thank you."

"Representative Kubik to close. Could the Gentleman have your attention please?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all I'd like to say that this is an issue that we discuss for quite awhile. I think that it's been well, well debated and I think everybody knows what's in this legislation. This legislation doesn't, does not affect the school aid formula and to those people who tell me that the rich suburbs around Chicago are getting all the money, I ask you to come and see me in Cicero in my district. I ask you to come and 41  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 see me in Berwin in my district and tell those people how wealthy they are. But that's a separate issue, that..."

"Representative Kubik."

"Not the issue we're debating today. The issue is the people of Cook County have said, we want a property tax cap. It's just that simple. They've said we have voted the best way we know how, which is through a referendum to tell the legislature we want to slow the growth of property taxes. Makes eminent since. They made that decision. This Bill is a very reasonable Bill. It doesn't freeze taxes, it allows the growth of taxes and it allows the growth at a level of inflation or 5% in the first year. Now, I would like to remind the Members that, that this Bill and this law allows people in their districts to make decisions about how they want to spend money. They can go to referendum and say, we want to spend more money for education. They can go to referendum and say, we want to build a new school. They can go to referendum and say, we need a new fire house. They can do that, and I might point out that the evidence in the collar counties shows that the rate of success for referendum has doubled, doubled, it's almost 50% now, succesS rate on referendum because the people recognize that they are asking, local government is asking for services that they require, not just simply raising taxes willy nilly. This Bill's time has come. I believe that we got a mandate, we received a mandate on November 8th. This Majority Party has met that mandate by putting this Bill on the Governor's desk and I believe this is part of what we need to do to respond to our voters. I would encourage all Members to concur favorably in Senate Amendment #1 to House Bill 200. Thank you Mr. Speaker."

"You've heard the Gentleman's request. The 42  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 question is, 'Shall the House concur with the Senate in the adoption of Senate Amendment #1 to House Bill 200?' All those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; opposed by voting 'nay'. The voting is open and this is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish?" Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take the record. On this Bill, excuse me, Representative Pugh, you're having trouble with your switch again. I saw you trying to vote. How do you want to be recorded? Representative Pugh wishes to be recorded as no with leave of the House. Is their leave  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 As the cochairman of the Legislative Audit Commission, we the four caucuses that make up this Body and the Body just over to the north. Reviewed this Bill in a bipartisan bases agreed that we would introduce it. The terms of the Bill or that we ask by law would require that the inter-agency counsel on early intervention include in their annual report, the estimated number of eligible infants and toddlers in the state for the program. The number of eligible infants and toddlers who have received service under the Act and the cost of providing those services and the estimated cost of providing services under the Act to all eligible infants and toddlers in the state. Again this is a bipartisan effort, it's not my intention to use this Bill for any other purpose but strictly for what you see before you today and I'd be happy to answer any questions and urge your 'yes' vote."

"You heard the Gentleman's request. Is there any discussion? This Bill is on short debate. Representative Black, the Gentleman from Vermilion."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield? Representative Hannig, I want to make sure that everybody in the chamber is aware of what this Bill does. Because the cost figures for providing early intervention services are estimated to be as high as $260 million and the state currently spending approximately $35 million. Is it the intent of your Legislation that we simply get an accurate count of the number of children we might be exposed to...poor choice of words, that we might have to serve under existing federal law so that we know exactly how we might have to budget. The intent of your legislation is to study that issue and get an accurate number, is that correct?" 44  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 15th Legislative Day

"Representative Hannig."

"Yes, Representative Black, that's exactly the intent of this Bill. It's simply to have a better understanding of the numbers of what's out there and the potential cost that are out there, so we'll have a better...we can make some more inform judgements."

"Representative Black."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Also, Representative Hannig, the Bill before us does not call for the expenditure of any funds whatsoever, correct?"

"Representative Hannig."

"That is correct, Mr. Black."

"Representative Black."

"Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. To the Bill, the Bill as the speaker indicated is on short debate. I am aware of no opposition to the Bill, it calls for a rather complete study to see just exactly how many children might be illegible for the early intervention services program that the state provides and also to meet federal mandates. It's probably a good idea to get an accurate indication because those are such wide ranging estimates of the dollars that we might be required to spend in order to meet some of these federal mandates so, I think it's a good idea to see exactly where we are and where we might have to be in our future budget deliberations and I rise to ask my colleagues to support the Gentleman's Bill. I intent to vote 'aye' on House Bill 166."

"Representative Hannig to close."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. I thank Representative Black for his kind words of support of this Bill and indeed it is a bipartisan effort. It's an 45  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 effort to try and get a better understanding of what is actually needs to be address. It's really a reporting Bill, it will not cost us anything. I'd ask for your 'yes' vote."

"You have heard the Gentleman's Motion. The question is, 'Shall the House pass House Bill 166?' All those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; opposed by voting 'nay'. The voting is open and this final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Representative Pugh, your machine is not working again. How do you want to be recorded, Sir? It's on now, okay. Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take the record. There are 114 'ayes', 0 'nay', and 0 'present'. This Bill having received the Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. House Bill 209, Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 209, a Bill for an Act in Relation to Public Welfare Reform. Third Reading of the this House Bill."

"Chair recognizes Representative Stephens, the Gentleman from Madison."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. House Bill 209 is the...is the result of the House Republican initiatives on welfare reform. The House Republican welfare reform package is a series of initiatives that are designed to prevain...to provide welfare recipients with greater independence and self responsibility. Our goals in putting this package together were simple. We simply want to break the cycle of generation after generation of families being raised on public assistance. Self responsibility means bringing home a pay check. Contributing to the economy, feeling the sense of pride that your family will be taken care of and 46  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 taken care of by you. And to that end we introduce House Bill 209 as a portion of the House Republican Majority welfare reform package. I would like to go over the highlights of the Bill if I may, and then I'd be glad to try to respond to any questions that may...may present themselves. First of all, we think that we ought to send a message it's time to serious about welfare reform as we know it. And to that end, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, AFDC, will now have a sunset clause to take effect on January 1, 1999, and it will abolish welfare as we know it. This clause will force this state to deal with the inefficient system that currently is in place and to fund an alternative program that is economically sound and whose real goal is to work with those in need and those of us who provide to come up with a plan and programs that really work. Secondly, our program calls for teenage moms on AFDC to stay in school and to stay at home. To promote greater responsibility of...and family values, this requires teen moms age 17 and under to stay in school or lose part of their benefits. These teens must also live with their parents or legal guardians or lose benefits. The Bill also provides exceptions that could be granted to insure the safety of the teen. We believe that it's proper and it's in this Bill, that we crack down on truancy. It's part of our ongoing effort to break the cycle of welfare dependency and to provide independence, this Bill keeps kids in school. Our Bill requires children to attend classes regularly and if they fail to do so, their parents welfare check will be sent to a local social service agency. In order for the parent to collect that check, they then must attend counseling sessions geared toward their involvement in their children's education. If 47  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 parents do not participate in counseling and the child's attendance does not improve, the monthly check will be reduced. Our program will help parents become involved on a day to day basis in their children's schooling and that is as it should be. We plan to eliminate cash bonuses for having more children. To stop the abuse of the welfare program, this measure would nullify grant increases for additional children. And money saved from this program would go to over family oriented programs, such as job training, transitional day care, additional children beyond the scope of the bonus will still receive medical care, food stamps, housing; they are not going to be deprived. This measure again, is designed to break the generational cycle of children being born into public assistance, staying there until their adulthood and beyond. We're very proud that we're going to be cracking down on deadbeat dads. Probably the most powerful part of this legislation, an additional proposal will include a tightening of child support collection efforts from deadbeat dads. These men must pay child support. They must live up to their responsibility. Having children is a two way responsibility and these deadbeat dads should not only be ashamed of themselves, they should be sought out and they should be forced to pay in place of the taxpayers subsidizing their activities. The taxpayer should not have to take care of these families if the father is capable. The result of dads paying child support is a savings indeed, to the taxpayer. Our next initiative requires immediate enrollment in job search for parents whose children are age five to 12 years old that are seeking AFDC assistance. Recipients who do not enroll in job search face having the adult portion of their AFDC grant reduced. 48  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 Our intent is to insist parents in finding employment and to help them assume the simple responsibility of caring for their children. Parents with children 13 years old and older will be required to seek and accept employment. The recipient who does not seek employment will have their benefit reduced and eventually terminated after 24 months. Ladies and Gentlemen, we're talking about people who are about to loose their benefits anyway and this is simply a wake up call to the reality of the world that says, if you want to have, you must work. This proposal would affect about 16,000 AFDC recipients statewide. The syst...we believe the system has been abused for a long time. It's time that we adopt these reforms and move able bodied people off of welfare rolls and on to the payroll. People don't need incentives to get off of welfare to get a job, that will become clear when we remove the current incentives to stay on welfare. That's what's wrong and that's what we're gonna change. I move passage of House Bill 209 as amended and urge and 'aye' vote. I'd be glad to respond to any questions."

"Any discussion? The Lady from Cook, Representative Schakowsky."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"On page 41, Section 12-4, where you talk paternity establishment and continued eligibility. It says that with certain exceptions if an unmarried mother fails to establish paternity within six months, both the parents and child lose benefits forever, as I and Public Aid attorneys read this. In other words, even if at seven months, paternity is established, that mother and child have lost their ability to receive benefits. Was this intended in 49  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 15th Legislative Day the Bill?"

"Representative Stephens."

"The intent of the Bill is to crack down on deadbeat dads and I know that's something that you share with me as...as...as a mission of this assembly. That is the intend of the Bill and I don't believe that it forever bans participation."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"I think you need to check the language. There doesn't seem to be a remedy if the mother will establish paternity at the seventh month, there's no provision in the Bill that allows her to collect, to be eligible for assistance. Did you know that under current law, mothers benefits can already be terminated for any failure to cooperate with the child support enforcement, so that portion is already in the Bill, already in law? Did you know that?"

"Representative Stephens."

"You're question was, did I already know that something that's existing law is being reinforced here, or reestablished here? If that's the case, I see no problem with it."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"In...on page 22, Section 4.8, it says that truancy is, 'evidence of lack of proper and necessary support of care.' This is the statutory definition of neglect and under The Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act, Public Aid is mandated to report every neglected child to DCFS, to the Department of Children and Family Services, who then must investigate. Did you intend to increase by many thousand fold, the DCFS...DCFS caseload, by including all of these truant children now as neglected children that 50  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 must be investigated as neglected children?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Lack of school attendance is not a behavior that is mandatorily reportable. And, in answer to your question, no, I did not intend that."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Intended it, but you may not have intended it, but the way you define truancy as evidence of lack of proper and necessary supportive care that is, in fact, neglect and that would be required to be reported. Let me ask another question. On page 25, Section 4 on the Targeted Jobs Initiative, you have required that adults where the youngest child is 13 is eligible for only 24 months of AFDC, I understand that. And you say that the addition of a younger child to the household will not extend eligibility. This is to discourage people from just bringing in another child. But, what if there is a niece or a nephew that's five years old that could come into that house for maybe only an additional $36 a month, that child now may be sent to foster care for a much as ten times that amount because that child may not enter the household and change eligibility to be cut off. Did you intend that to be in the Bill?"

"Representative Stephens."

"First of all, I'm not sure that your statement is true and the intent of the Bill is to discourage, or to encourage, in the section that you're referring to, encourage those who are about to loose their benefits anyway to recognize the fact and to limit their benefits to 24 months. And that, in a system that has an average participation of 18 months, I don't see that this is a problem." 51  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"Representative Schakowsky."

"On page 2, Section 3 in the issue of strengthening child support enforcement, which we all agree should happen, there is very confusing language that suggests that a licensing agency would retain the option not to impose licensing sanctions, that is cut off somebody's license after receiving certification. I'm wondering if you intended to leave this language as ambiguous as it is?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative, if you want to continue this line of questioning that seems to be time after time saying that the Bill says something that we didn't intend, you are certainly welcome to do so. But, the intent here is clear. The language here is, I...I think very straight forward and it simply says that we, what we're changing is that the department now may seek sanctions on licenses. This toughens that language to require it."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Yes I...I am questioning whether the language embodies your intent and, in fact, I have more questions where I think there is a result that you did not intended in the Bill. In terms of requiring a teen to live at home. I understand your Bill to say that a woman who has a first child will be able to receive benefits for that first child, is that, is that right if she's income eligible, she can receive a benefit?"

"Representative Stephens."

"If we're talking about a woman who is out on her own, then the answer to your question is yes. If we are talking about a woman who is part of an AFDC unit and child in that AFDC unit, then the answer to your question is no."

"Representative Schakowsky." 52  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

February 10, 1995 "Okay. So, in other words, it is...if a teen living with her AFDC mother has a...has a child, her first child, then that baby would not be eligible for addition aid and that is, in fact, the intention of this legislation?"

"Is that a question? Representative Stephens."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, she again, has to put it in other words. We are repeating the same thing. The answer to the question is, that that child would be covered with Medicaid, housing, food stamps, but there would be no additional cash benefit to that family unit and should, and there shouldn't be. That's the intent of the Bill and that is exactly what we want to do, that's what this is about Representative, it's about trying to make AFDC families have some general resemblance to the rest of America that happens to work late at night, two jobs, trying to educate their families and trying to create values. It's as simple as that Representative. You're trying to make it much more complex and misunderstood than should be."

"Representative Schakowsky, you have about three seconds left. Representative Schakowsky."

"Representative Feigenholtz said I could have her time."

"Okay."

"Regarding the issue of the family cap and you said you want AFDC families to look just like everyone else. Are you aware that the average size of a welfare family is actually slightly smaller than the average size of a regular family, of a non-AFDC family?"

"Representative Stephens."

"This...this Bill is irregardless of family size, so I think you're question is not really worthy of response."

"Representative Schakowsky." 53  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Are you aware that the additional February 10, 1995 amount that a mother with two children receives if she has another child is $36 a month, which is less than half of our per diem, which is in addition to our salary, $36.00 a month?"

"Representative Stephens."

"First of all, depending on the number of children that are in that family, your number could be accurate or could not be and if we don't pass this legislation, it is not just one child, but then a second, and a third and the fourth. And that's what the public is demanding action on and that's what this Bill is about. Representative, our intentions here are clear. You know what are intentions are, they are to create responsibility in every family in Illinois, whether they are on their own and earning their way in life, or whether they are an AFDC family. That is right, it is what the voters demand, it is what the taxpayers demand and it's something that you might, Ma'am, ought to support."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"If a woman is raped or the victim of incest and is on AFDC and a pregnancy results, will you Bill authorize that the state will pay for an abortion should she become pregnant."

"Representative Stephens."

"Our Bill does not speak to that issue."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"And if a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy because of the failure of contraception and is trying to abide by not having more children, does this Bill authorize abortion, state paid for abortion for that woman so she can comply with your law?"

"Representative Stephens." 54  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995

"Again Ma'am, this Bill does not change any current policy or procedures in the Department. And that child, when it's born, would receive Medicaid, housing, all the other benefits that I mentioned earlier."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"In eliminating AFDC this Bill gives few specific guidelines for developing an alternative program but gives exclusive responsibility to the Department of Public Aid to come up with an alternative plan. This is the same Department of Public Aid that brought us Healthy Moms, Healthy Kids and this fourth try at Medicaid reform. Don't you think that the issue of who would develop the plan is maybe one that needs to be addressed more carefully?"

"Representative Stephens."

"I think that this Bill addresses it just fine Ma'am."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Well, Mr. Speaker there is consensus in this chamber that the current welfare system is degrading and dehumanizing and must be reformed. And I think there is some consensus that we ought to do it as soon as possible. But, this Bill was hastily written. It was distributed 15 minutes before committee, it contains many ambiguities, technical questions, and I believe many unintended outcomes that you did not mean to have in the Bill. My mother, rest her soul, always said, 'haste makes waste.' And this haste is magnified in the Bill by calling for emergency rule making which limits public input. We are dealing with the lives of of 500,000 of Illinois poorest children and their parents. AFD recipients are real people who will be deeply affected by this Bill. This is no longer about press releases or about power or about control. We all want to do this, but this train on the fast track is barreling down 55  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 on hundreds of thousands of innocent children. Let's not make them victims of this train wreck. And even if you like the ideas and the concepts in this Bill, which most of us like many of them at least. I urge you to vote 'no' or 'present' so that we can come back and do it right. Thank you."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Krause."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill. I strongly believe that Illinois must move forward in finally breaking the barriers that hold many people within the welfare system. The welfare package that is being voted on today, however, falls short from what this General Assembly has the ability to do. Although the child support provisions are positive initiatives in attempting to collect the large arrearages in child support payment which exist in this state, thereby forcing many women and children onto welfare, the other sections of this legislation do not resolve the major problems that exist in our welfare system. The lack of case management in the programs points to minimal success at best and it short sighted. The lack of emphasis on early childhood development again fails to recognize the significance of attending to the needs of the young. Unless jobs can be developed for individuals who've been laid off work or who lack basis job skills and find themselves on welfare, a cutoff of benefits with no or limited safety net, creates merely a trickle down effect onto our local communities and townships, requiring them to step forward and care for families who are the obligations of the state. This legislation incorporates the so called family cab Bill. Illinois pays modest sums for its AFDC grants and under this Bill a woman who has an additional child while on welfare would be denied an AFDC grant for 56  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 that child. If the family unit increased from three to four, the grant would have gone up approximately from $377 to $414 per month. The argument is made that women have children in order to receive this grant. This argument is totally fallacious since this same woman could place her child in relative foster care as with her grandmother or aunt and the relative would receive approximately $1400 for the same family size. What is frustrating is that the system will pay a relative or stranger nearly three to four times more to take care of the children than it will pay to assist the children's own mother. The damage that is being caused here is multiple in that government should not be directing family size or requiring women to choose an abortion, should not strike out an innocent children who already have two strikes against them. Instead, should be trying to assist a newborn into a relationship with his mother. The family cap provision should have been removed from the legislation and voted on separate Bill. This provision is bad public policy. Running throughout this Bill is the requirement that the mother attend school and/or get a job. We are not going to succeed with these objectives unless we provide a definite commitment and budgetary entry that transitional child care and day care for 24 months be made available for every mother who may require to attend school or get a job. This General Assembly must bring child care to the forefront of any welfare reform discussion. However, at this time, we can only assist a minimum of young mothers with child care and then for only 12 months. Thousands and thousands of children are in need of child care. We cannot grant it. The general accounting office estimates that only 29% of the women who receive partial child care are able to 57  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 continue to stay off of welfare, yet their statistics show that if full day care is provided, then 74% of the women could go to work. I look forward in the weeks ahead that the General Assembly can reexamine some of these issues, move forward on others, and develop a sound welfare reform program. In addition, I appreciate the time in which to be heard and also to state that Representative Stephens, the Co-Sponsor, has always extended courtesies to me. Thank you."

"The chair recognizes the Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Stephens, back in fiscal year 1986, do you know how much money we spend on AFDC at that time?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Did you say 1986?"

"Representative Granberg."

"Fiscal year 1986."

"No, I do not."

"Representative Granberg."

"Representative, $891 million. Do you know what we spent on AFDC in fiscal year 1994?"

"Representative Stephens."

"One billion."

"My numbers are $937 million. But, do you know the percentage increase then over the course of the last eight years spent of AFDC in this state?"

"Representative Stephens."

"I'm sorry. Would you repeat the question?"

"Representative Granberg."

"The percent increase that this state has spend on AFDC 58  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 in the last eight fiscal years."

"Representative Stephens."

"You mean during Democrat control?"

"Representative Granberg."

"Eight out of the last 14 have been with Republican governors SO we can have our different prospectives on this. Under the last eight years you know the percent increase in AFDC?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Please enlighten us."

"Representative Granberg for enlightment."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Approximately 4%. Now if we've had a 4% increase in AFDC, let's compare that to Medicaid. You know how much this state has spent on Medicaid in fiscal year 1986."

"Representative Stephens for the quiz answer."

"Could you make it multiple choice?"

"Representative Granberg."

"Is that the exam that you took to get into the military too?" Is that...? Now, in 1986 this state spent $1.8 billion on Medicaid. In 1994, fiscal year 1994, this state spend $4 billion, $4 1/2 billion on Medicaid; approximately 130% increase, 130% increase in Medicaid, a 4% increase in AFDC. Now, what percent of the Department of Public Aid's budget is devoted to AFDC for this current year?"

"Representative Stephens."

"First of all, could be go back to your remark about the military?"

"Representative Stephens for a answer to the question."

"Mr. Speaker, with all due respect it was a question 59  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 about the military that I would like to have repeated."

"Representative Granberg."

"Sir, now, if I remember correctly, I took the multiple choice exam in the...for the military induction."

"Representative Stephens."

"I chose none of the above and still went in. Now, what's the percentage? The answer to your question is 12%."

"Representative Granberg."

"I'm sorry, Representative Stephens, could you repeat that? I'm sorry, I did not hear that."

"He said 12%."

"So, 12% of the Department of Public Aid's budget is spent on AFDC which has seen a 4% increase over the last eight fiscal years. Twelve percent has been spent of AFDC which has increased 4% over the last eight years. And I assume the rest is spent on Medicaid which has increased over 130% over the last eight years. Now, since 72% of the Department of Public Aid's budget has increased over 130% and we're not addressing that today. Do you know how much we currently owe our Medicaid providers in this current fiscal year?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Let me tell you first of all that it would be a heck of a lot less if two Democrat statewide office holders last year has shown any sense of cooperation so that we could have done what was right for this state and paid a billion dollars in back bills to those people. But, no, for political reasons, political reasons only, they stood in opposition to what was only the biggest piece of common sense that's come down the pike politically in a long time. But no, you couldn't do that. And let me answer your 60  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day question directly, Sir. This issue, February 10, 1995 House Bill 209, although it will have financial benefits, is not about money, it is about philosophy. It is about the philosophy working Americans that demand of those who do not work the same sense of values that they were raised with. That's where your missing the point Representative."

"Do you want to ask him another question."

"Mr. Speaker, I'd like to repeat the question. I don't think I heard an answer what the current backlog of Medicaid payments are in this state to our pharmacies, to our nursing homes and to our hospitals. How much is currently owed to those people."

"Okay, Representative Granberg, you have about a minute left so I will call on Representative Stephens to answer the question. Representative Stephens."

"Representative, I'm sure that I can answer that question in that minute and I appreciate your courtesy. The backlog varies and it is too big. And again, Representative my previous remarks address my deep felt feelings about what we should have done last year to assist with that. That is behind us and should we have the opportunity again, we will deal with it. But as the governor brings his budget address to us next month, I am sure that he will consider, and we as a deliberative Body will consider many issues that help relieve the pressure of that backlog. And I would tell you that you have sat on this House Floor...and now you are out of time."

"Representative Granberg."

"Mr. Speaker, I believe Representative Burke has indicated he would like to yield his time to me."

"Let me just make sure you understand. We'll do it this time. In order for that to occur, we have to 61  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 recognize Representative Burke, who then yields his time to you. However, he's not in line to be recognized so it's be about 20 minutes before you were. But, we'll go ahead with this line, but just SO you understand on yielding time that's how it works. But, on this Bill, we'll go ahead with that. Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Representative Stephens, do you know when the current budget expires for Medicaid payments to nursing homes this current fiscal year?"

"Representative Stephens."

"That would only be an estimate and I do not know."

"Representative Granberg."

"Mr. Stephens, do you know when the current Medicaid budget to pay our hospitals is going to expire this fiscal year?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative, our budget does not expire as you describe it."

"Representative Granberg."

"Representative Stephens, the funding items, if you ask Representative Ryder, the funding line items for those two expire. We put an eight month budget for Medicaid for nursing homes into this current years budget. Eight months it expires. We have a nine month budget for hospitals. It expires, there is no more money. No more money for Medicaid. That is my point Representative. So, currently we owe Medicaid providers $1.4 billion, $1.4 billion. Those budgets, in addition to the $1.4 expire in the next two months. That's approximately $300 million more for this current fiscal year. That's $1.7 billion we will owe our providers. The assessment on hospitals for Medicaid expires July 1st. That's $300 million states share. With 62  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 the matching Medicaid at the federal level, that's $600 million. That's now $2.3 billion we will owe our Medicaid providers, $2.3 billion for Medicaid alone. Testimony has indicated it's another $1.4 billion next fiscal year and at this time we're addressing AFDC which has increased 4% over eight years, and we're going to owe two, almost $2.5 billion to our hospitals, our nursing homes and our pharmacies. I would suggest Sir, we all believe we need welfare reform, but we can't keep our heads in the sand with this administration with these Majorities in the Legislature. We have to deal with these budget problems. If we would spend this much time dealing with Medicaid problems and the solution, we would all be be better served and the people of this state would be better served. Our bond rating has been decreased for the third time in four years. Unprecedented in the history of this state, this state is in terrible fiscal condition, but we use these hot button items to get votes. This is the politics of press releases, not policy. I would suggest we'd be better served to review the issue of Medicaid funding, the whole budget, and spend our time on that and put that on fast track in this House. Thank you."

"The Chair recognized the Lady from Cook, Representative Mulligan."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Stephens. We've discussed repeatedly the difference, the discrepancy in how much you get in relative foster care and how much you get for a child under the Department's straight grant. Do you realize what that amount is?"

"Representative Stephens." 63  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Yes, I do."

"Representative Mulligan." February 10, 1995

"For the record, the amount is $102 if you get a straight grant for one child and if you shift your child to relative foster care, it's approximately $350. Are you aware Representative that one of the largest explosions we have in cost in DCFS is the switch to relative foster care?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative, this Bill does not shift people from AFDC to DCFS."

"Representative Mulligan."

"Well, I think that you will find that that's what will happen if a mother cannot afford to take good care of a child what we've been encouraging them to do is leave them with grandma and push mom out of the house to get that additional amount of money. I see also in your Bill that you say that any savings will go toward a job program and we've also been talking about perhaps some kind of day care. What actual amount do you feel will be saved under this Bill that might be applied to those items?"

Speaker Daniels" "Representative Stephens."

"Was your question how much would be saved from what particular program?"

"Representative Mulligan."

"I would like to know how much you think will be saved in not adding any additional children on the welfare rolls that you are to then apply to either the job programs or day care?"

"Representative Stephens." Stephens; "I'm not sure of the exact dollar amount, but whatever it is, and it could be in the area of $15 million we are 64  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 15th Legislative Day told, but whether it's $15 million or$1.5 billion or $15 thousand, it's the philosophy that is the most important factor here. The financial benefits that will certainly been seem from this Bill in the long run are simply an added benefit to the legislation. The idea here is the philosophy of the people on AFDC and as they are supported by the taxpayers, Ma'am."

"Representative Mulligan."

"Representative Stephens, I feel you can address the philosophy in your in your closing statement and not take up my time in this debate, but quite frankly I think that if you then subtract the amount that you put on, shifting people to relative foster care, you will have no savings. In fact, you will have a deficit under this program and as someone who deals with those budgets, I find that inappropriate. Also as someone who deals with women in general, I find that no additional or transitional day care for women under jobs program is not very empowering and the women basically are the ones to take care of the children and are left alone on this program. I don't find it particularly enlightening, although I certainly commend your idea of doing some kind of welfare reform. Will you, at some time, support or introduce a Bill that will add transitional day care or additional dollars if this does not produce any savings in that area."

"Representative Stephens."

"I'll be glad in the future to sit down and discuss that with you, yes."

"Representative Mulligan."

"Discussion is not some commitment to introducing a Bill or supporting a Bill that would do that, Representative. To the Bill. I commend the Sponsor very 65  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 much for trying to adjust something that we all know is out of control in Illinois. Although, quite frankly, I find the fact that 12 to 13% addresses public welfare and the rest of it goes to Medicaid, and we are not introducing Medicaid reform does go to the perception of public policy. We elected a U.S. Senator just recently who could do this and get away with it, so public policy obviously says this is fine. I don't think the public policy in this area is fine. I think we need to address Medicaid, I think we need to address it vigorously, I think we need to help women with transitional day care. I really would like to support this Bill because it has many good things in it, but I would like some assurances from the Sponsor that we will get some additional help, particularly with transitional care."

"The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Flowers."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Stephens, how will the Department of Public Aid develop a replacement program for this now existing program?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Is your question, how will they help replace the current AFDC program?"

"Yes."

"Let me refer to the language. The language in the Bill speaks to that very clearly and I like, it's probably the best writing in the Bill. And all I gotta remember is what page it's on."

"Representative Flowers."

"Speaker, the clock is still ticking while 66  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 Representative Stephens is looking for what I'm asking. So, can you just kinda stop the clock, Okay?"

"Representative Stephens."

"The Illinois Department shall develop an alternative program of mutual responsibility between the Illinois Department and the client to allow the family to become self sufficient or employed as quickly as possible through (1) the provisions of transitional assistance to families in the form of emergency one time payments to prevent job loss, temporary assistance while searching for or being trained for work, or paternity establishment and child support enforcement or; (2) the provision of continued work. And that's the method by which they will use, that they will use."

"Representative Flowers."

"Representative Stephens, my question is, what process will you use to put this, what you have here in writing, what process would you use?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, I would suggest that...that the answer to your question is multifaceted. We will have public hearings, we have years of availability of public input, we have Amendments and Bills that can be filed in the House and Amendments and Bills that can be filed in the Senate. We have recommendations, proclamations, suggestions to the United States Congress, to our President, to the...to Hillary Clinton, all sorts of people that could have input into this."

"Representative Flowers."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, you're talking about things that should already be in the Bill. You're talking about things that should have been done 67  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 before you printed this Bill. None of what you are talking about is in this legislation, so therefore, I'm asking you, what are we going now because none of what you're saying is here? So therefore, it cannot be mandated. This cannot...what you just said to me cannot be mandated because already we've thrown the baby out with the bath."

"Is that a question?"

"Yes. Because it not in..."

"Representative Stephens."

"That was a yes, a strangely worded question. There will be no babies thrown out with the bath and if...if...if the question is, should everything that we want to be in the new AFDC Act in the year 1999 be in this Bill today, is that what...then the answer is we did not do that. We did the best job we could at...in today's atmosphere to try to bring some semblance of personal responsibility for ones actions to the AFDC recipient. That's all this Bill does."

"Representative Flowers."

"Representative Stephens, my point to you is that in your Bill it does not indicate that in the year 1999 we shall then come back to this House of Representatives to implement what you just said. That is not in your Bill, so that is my whole point. Right now we are just talking about rules. We are talking about what we want to do if we want to do it."

"Representative Stephens."

"Mr. Speaker, it is obviously without question that the statutory authority for AFDC shall come before this Body and it would not need to be stated in the Bill. That's a point that just not well made."

"Representative Flowers."

"Mr. Speaker, we're talking about people lives here. 68  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 We're talking about...you just said that we will have some communications and community hearings. We would have to implement this by emergency rules so, therefore, it's not right. Why do we have to have emergency rules? Because, again, if it's done on a fast track, if it's done quickly, we will have what we have now, something that doesn't work."

"Representative Flowers, was that a question?"

"Yes."

"Representative Stephens. Ma'am, excuse me, your time has expired but I will honor your request on this Bill so we'll grant you another five minutes. Representative Stephens."

"Mr. Speaker, I am again impressed by your courtesy that you show the other side of the aisle. In answer to your question, you know, we've had welfare policy in place in this Nation for over 30 years and it has done nothing but promote poverty, keep people trapped in a welfare cycle that they cannot get out of. And because we call it an emergency and ask for emergency rules to deal with the language that's given clear direction to the department when delineating those rules in this legislation, to think that that's inappropriate is wrong Ma'am. What this does is direct the department, and it directs them with some urgency and it gives an openness to the system that is historic in the Illinois legislative process."

"Representative Flowers."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, to the Bill. Representative Stephens is absolutely right, this monster has been out here for the last 30 years. The state and the federal government have created a welfare monster that has fostered reliance on an antiquated system. The 69  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 current proposal that intend to eliminate welfare as we know it is a joke. The elimination proposals are not intended, though some would try to justify them otherwise, to strengthen or prove or improve our society. They are vengeful, punishing a population that cannot help themselves and I'm talking about women and children. Welfare was never, and I want to emphasize never, intended to have, to create independence or self-reliance. Welfare was based on a white, middle class model where, like the stereotype of Ozzie and Harriet, mother was dependent on the financial support of a father to remain at home to care for the children. However, in the AFDC family the natural father was kicked out of the home and in place became big government, we're talking about the federal and the state. No respect was given to other family models at the time, such as that of working class African-American women whom, independent and self-reliant often worked outside the home while raising children. Mothers were never intended to be homemakers and not breadwinners. Job training programs that now exist is an afterthought. Most of these programs are pilot programs. None of them existed back in the '60's. Earnfare attempts to bridge that gap, but participating businesses often use them and use the people in the program for free labor, labor. AFDC recipients have given our society back exactly what they were intended to give, and that's children. They are paid to be a type of child care. As a result, AFDC is a program that works from the point of view that it promotes the care of children while ignoring the needs of the care giver. AFDC was never intended to work in the first place. The mothers on welfare, the mothers of welfare children have never been the direct beneficiaries of the welfare program. Ladies 70  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 and Gentlemen you need to understand that a mother that was on welfare was penalized if she wanted to get an education. She was penalized if she ever tried to get a job. And anyone that tried to get educated while on welfare was penalized and I think this is an injustice and you know it's been going on for the last 30 years, but right now we're going to have a fast track to fix something that's been broken for 30 years. We're going to fix it in a matter of a few hours. There has not been community input. You never came and talked to anyone on this side of the aisle because we all are sent here by various factions of the State of Illinois. We all have a responsibility, we are all concerned, and what we're doing here, this is called starve the baby Bill, that's all it is. You are harming women and you are harming children. The children cannot vote for us, the women are helpless and that's all that you are doing here Ladies and Gentlemen and I want to think about what you are doing to our future."

"The Gentleman from Champaign, Representative Johnson." Johnson, Tim: "I don't think there's a Member of this chamber, at least outside the metropolitan Chicago area, and I would probably suggest within that area that hasn't heard from their constituents in the coffee shops and elsewhere as much as any other comment, what are you going to do about the welfare system, what are you going to do about the abuses in the welfare system, what are you going to do about the taxpayers who are paying the bill? This Bill, this comprehensive fast track sweeping reform is the most significant piece of welfare reform legislation ever passed in this state and I would suggest perhaps the most sweeping change ever passed in any state in the union. It combines 71  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 the best of all worlds, not only savings to the taxpayers, not only a significant reform in the system that we've dealt with and has betroubled not only our budget but our taxpayers for eons. But also deals in other areas in a very significant way, providing incentives for education, providing incentives for families to stay together, dealing with the problem of truancy and deadbeat parents who don't pay their child support on time or at all, and other major initiatives in that area. To vote 'no' on this Bill would be to say 'no' to the most significant changes that we have made or attempted to make, not only here but anywhere in the last 30 years and I would suggest that this is a vote from any number of standpoints that from a social standpoint, an economic standpoint and otherwise, not only makes all the sense in the world, is necessary and is supported by a vast, vast majority, if not all of your constituents and the taxpayers of the State of Illinois. So, I urge a 'yes' vote."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Santiago."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Gentleman yield for a question or two?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Stephens, as you know, we discussed this Bill in committee for a period of time and I would like to ask you some of the questions that I ask the Director of Public Aid at the same committee hearing. The big question is that I think has not been mentioned so far here and you have stated that that is about philosophy. Well, I'm interested in the Republican philosophy which states that we must cut down government, we must reduce the, the budget. Now, the question that I have is, how 72  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 much money are we going to save if we implement this Bill?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and thank you, Representative Santiago. And you did ask questions and I thought that we made it clear in committee that for certain, our opinion is that in the first year of enactment of this legislation, this will be relatively revenue neutral. It may be plus or minus by tens of thousands of dollars, but relatively neutral as far as revenue expended by the state. In the out years, there are undoubtedly going to be benefits as we encourage people, or excuse me, as we take away the incentives to stay on welfare we're going to see people reaching for that first and bottom rung of the economic ladder of succesS and once they reach it, they will hang on, and so that will indeed see some financial benefits in the future. AS to the dollar amount of those, I don't know, but I do know that whatever they are, they will be a benefit to the State of Illinois, to children in our educational system, to all the other programs that you and I share as a concern."

"Representative Santiago."

"So, your answer is zero. No savings once we establish this program, once this program...program goes into effect. So, why are we having reform when we're not going to have any savings. Why are we tackling the Medicaid issue? Do you know that 80% of the Public Aid budget is Medicaid? Why, do you have any programs, any Bills that will address the Medicaid issue? Because that's the biggest, that's the biggest problem in...with the Public Aid Department."

"Representative Stephens."

"Mr. Speaker, I respect the Minority spokesman of this committee as much as any member on that side of the aisle 73  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 and more than most. But Representative, you know that we passed a plan here that is law in Illinois today, but for the Clinton Administration in Washington, failure, in their failure to grant waivers, we have not been able to address the real issue that you want to say is a part of the problem for addressing another significant portion of the welfare budget. But we have a plan before...that is law now in Illinois. I'm not even sure that you didn't support it. I hope that you did and I hope that if you did or if you didn't that you will contact the administration and ask then why they waited, make us wait month after month when the President comes on National television and says, let the states determine the future of their residents, but then, when we ask for those waivers SO that we can determine our way of running our Medicaid system, we are denied not even proper consideration. So the question should be to you Sir, why in Washington don't they respond in the Clinton Administration?"

"Representative Santiago, I'll add some more time, Sir."

"Representative Stephens, do you know that that program was flawed and that's why we have a $2 billion hole in the State of Illinois. So, let's address the budgetary problems because all of these Bills are done under the demise that we're going to save money for the State of Illinois. There's...there are no savings, in fact, let me ask you this question, how much money is this program going to cost, if we implement, if the Governor signs this Bill tomorrow, how much money is this program going to cost?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, as you described one half of the equation when I gave the answer awhile ago which was relevan...revenue 74  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 neutral, you said, that means, no savings. So, then in sticking with your terminology, no cost."

"Representative Santiago."

"...answer my question. I'm asking you how much money is this program going to cost."

"Representative Stephens."

"Since it's revenue neutral, the answer is zero."

"Representative Santiago."

"That does not mean that that's going to save money. If you look at the, the Governor's initiative program, that program is going to cost you $10.5 million right, right after we implement this Bill. Am I correct in stating that fact?"

"Representative Stephens."

"No, I. I...I have no idea where you're getting estimates like that."

"Representative Santiago."

"This, this was in the Governor's State of the State message, which I'm sure everyone here paid close attention to it, Democrats and Republicans."

"Representative Stephens."

"One of the most historic speeches given on this House floor was his State of the State speech this year and in it, if you want me to give you a cash flow from...for 365 days of the fiscal year as to what day it's going to cost and what day it's going to save, I can do that. It would just be estimates, but if I do that, then you've gotta be fair to me and say that if on day one it costs $10 million then on day 37 it saved $10 million, because, in fact, it's revenue neutral Representative SO we can battle the somatics of what day it saved which dollar or what day it spent which dollar. But the point is moot, it is revenue 75  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 neutral, you know that."

"Representative Santiago."

"Well, the facts, the fact is that this program doesn't save any money, zero, zero money and it's going to cost $10.5 million to implement. That is not cost effective and you know that and everyone here knows that. So, you know, you can go on into your speeches on philosophy. I understand, you're my friend, you will always be my friend, but we disagree on the issue. Let me, let me, let me ask you another question. What impact is this Bill is going to have another, for example, DCFS?"

"Representative Stephens."

"If I...if I might, since the question persists, a fiscal note has been requested, Mr. Speaker. The funding for all the initiatives described in House Bill 209, as amended, is provided in the Governor's fiscal '96 budget. Implementation of all of these initiatives, in total, has been determined to be cost neutral."

"Representative Santiago."

"Well, once again, you did not answer my question. But, let me tell you what the Director of DCFS said, and I quote him, 'cuts in benefits for the poor will create problems that will push up the case load of abused and neglected children. If you alter other benefits system, you can expect to see some of that to carry over to the child welfare system.' This is the Director of DCFS stating that once you put kids out on the streets, the problem of DCFS, their caseload is going to increase by 39%. Now, I'm surprised that your staff put all this Bill together and you can not tell me what impact it has on other departments."

"You have about 30 seconds left, Sir." 76  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 15th Legislative Day

"Thank you."

"Was that a question? Representative Stephens, remaining 23 seconds."

"That...that, Mr. Speaker, the reference he made to the director's comments were in response to something other than House Bill 209 as amended."

"Representative Santiago, can you bring your remarks to a close, Sir."

"Yes. Once again, you know, you duck the issue, you know that that's what he...he meant, the Department of Public Aid, but...well, I want to wind up my comments by saying that this is just a helter skelter Bill which will put babies out on the street, it will effect a woman here in the State of Illinois. It's a shame that instead of coming up with a...a...welfare package that will have some beef and some meaning into it, we're putting some hodge podge group of different Bills together to try to persuade the...the...general public that we're really doing some welfare reform. You know on that side and we know on this side that this is not the answer to welfare reform. This is just a political statement that is being made. I respect your opinions and I ask my friends and everyone here that feel for the children of Illinois to vote 'no' on this Bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."

"The Lady from Dupage, Representative Biggert."

"Thank you Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I rise in support of this Bill. I have sat in the chambers here for two years and we have not really addressed this issue. This is the first time that we have come forward with a comprehensive welfare package. We've been waiting and waiting to do something and finally we have the opportunity and now you sit there and say this is 77  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 a helter skelter package. We have been working since December on this issue meeting as a committee to address these issues and think that we have come up with a process that is going to work. What has been proposed in the House before has been minimal and we've finally come forward with something. Now, there are probably some things that, that can use some adjustment. Certainly I have some concerns about the family cap, but I really am willing and able and am going to vote for this because I think this is the first time that we have looked at all of these issues in a comprehensive way. If we are going to solve the problem of generation after generation of being on the welfare cycle, we are going to have to address these issues. For example, I'd like to take the issue of education for unwed mothers. If you look at the average age of an unwed mother, that is 14 years old. Now that is astounding to me. That means that a girl was pregnant when she was in 8th grade. That is the average age of unwed mothers. Of those unwed mothers, 75% of those girls will have another child by the time they are age 17, if she doesn't go back to school. Education is the key to this, 45% of those young ladies then will have another child by the age of 21. So, by the age of 21 she will have three children. Think what this means in the long run for our welfare system. I would urge you to consider this as a comprehensive package. Give it your vote and let's work together to make significant welfare in the State of Illinois."

"The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Ronen."

"Thank you, Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I rise in opposition to House Bill 209. There's no disagreement that there is serious fundamental problems 78  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 with the current welfare system. The most harsh critics of welfare are those who have been trapped in it. And it is important to note that the overwhelming majority of welfare recipients would rather be getting a paycheck than a welfare check. But House Bill 209 will do little to improve this system. In point of fact, it could do harm. This Bill is about slogans, not solutions. If the proponents of this Bill were serious about moving people from dependency to self-sufficiency, we would not be rushing to judgment with a Bill that is so seriously flawed, both technically and substantively. If the proponents of this Bill were really serious about welfare reform, they would have allowed serious debate and discussion in the Health and Human Services Committee. This Bill bypassed the Health and Human Services Committee. If proponents of this Bill were really serious about welfare reform, they would have crafted a Bill which provides the vocational training, supportive services and child care necessary for families to leave welfare. House Bill 209 does not provide these supports. And if the proponents were really serious about welfare reform, they would have pilot tested some of these new strategies in smaller geographies, just as they did in Michigan and Wisconsin. No other state has attempted something so complex with so little information, yet such a large scale. So, it's very clear that this Bill is not a serious attempt to solve a very complex problem. Complex problems require thoughtful deliberative actions. If we are to reform welfare, we need to focus on policy, not political expediencies. Today we're talking about peoples lives. We are talking about the lives of over a half a million vulnerable children. They need our help and compassion. 79  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Poverty is not a crime or a disgrace. Families who need help to get back on their feet should not be punished. When businesses are floundering about to fail, we understand the need to support them, to make them healthy, to make them whole. Don't Illinois families deserve that same understanding? It's very easy to do battle with groups who have little or no clout. It's easy to win a fight against those who are vulnerable, such as poor women and children. But winning that battle almost insures that we loose the war and in so doing, lose our humanity. Today is the day to set aside partisanship and set aside cynical political poise and vote 'no' on House Bill 209."

"The Chair recognizes the Lady from McHenry, Representative Hughes."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of House Bill 209. I rise in support of this Bill recognizing that it is not going to be the answer to every problem we face in welfare, that it may have some areas that cause us to come back and revisit certain aspects. There may be further legislation that we deal with in this Session and in the years to come. I come in...I rise in support of House Bill 209 because it is time to recognize that the status quo is not working. It is time to be willing to consider new approaches and new ideas, knowing that in doing that we are risking perhaps some failure in some areas. We know we're failing with the status quo. So, I stand in support of House Bill 209 willing to take the risk that it might not be right in every way, but in general, it is right in what it is attempting to do and that it will move us in a direction toward greater opportunity for people who are in need and I urge you to support House Bill 209 with a favorable vote. Thank you." 80  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Blagojevich."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would simply to make Representative Stephens an offer I think you couldn't refuse. Why don't we work together on this issue. it's a complex issue and I'm sure that everybody would agree that we're trying to undo 30 years of a well intentioned idea that went sour. I don't think there's anybody here that would disagree with you Representative Stephens. All of us want to reform the welfare system, but why don't we do it in a way where we don't have to revisit the issue. Why not do a comprehensive plan that actually has a contingency for when the AFD system is abolished in two years, which is what you suggest. Why don't we have a plan that does something that would encourage employers to hire welfare recipients and get them off the system and put them in the jobs. Why don't we provide tax credits for employers and have a plan that includes that. Why don't we have a plan that has a safety net for those who through no fault of their own, who have played in the transitional service, have tried to work to be able to be employable, but through the economic circumstance, can't get work. Why don't we have a plan that at least gives them an option to make their case to a review panel and suggest to that review panel and explain to that review panel why they have not been able to get work, and then make a contingency for that. I think we ought to have a two year limit and we, on the Democratic side have a plan that provides for two years and you're out, but it also provides for employer incentives, it also has a safety net for those who have tried to work and play by the rules and become independent, but through no fault of theirs, can't be independent. Why 81  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 not work with us and try to fashion a real good bipartisan plan? And my offer includes making it your plan. Take the best of what we have to offer and make it yours, make it your Republican plan. Let's truly have a program that ends the cycle of dependency. Let's get people from dependency to independence, but let's not cut them off in two years and create a cycle of hopelessness, a class of citizens who are no longer dependent, but hopeless. We have a class of dependent citizens; these citizens are unemployable in many instances. I don't think that merely a two year plan that cuts...that gives them options, but cuts them off, puts them in a position where they can work. So, I'm offering you our Bill, Representative Stephens, and I sponsor a big portion of that package. And why don't we work together and again, you can make it your Bill, but let's make it a welfare reform package that we can be proud of and one, incidentally, that will be approved by federal law. Because unless the Congress changes federal law, I don't know that your plan is going to be able meet the requisite waivers. So, I implore you to take a look at our plan. We'd love to work with you, and I'd be happy to relinquish Chief-Sponsorship of my Bill and give it to you. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Vermilion, Representative Black."

"Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentleman of the House. To the Bill. I happen to come from a district now that has suffered more than it's share of plant closings and economic reversals. My attitude has changed somewhat than the archtypical or stereo typical viewpoint that I suppose I had ten years ago on the matter of Public Aid and welfare. But I think if you get any 82  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 message at all from the November election, I think what people were telling us is what I've heard some of my colleagues say already. We've talked about welfare reform for 25 years, haven't really done anything. Is this a perfect Bill? No, it is not. Are things we may have to come back and revisit? Possibly so, but if your district office is anything like mine, what gets SO frustrating today when you're in public life is when you hear and visit and talk with people who need help and can't get it. And then you see people who are on the welfare system and nobody really knows why, but they find that they've been on for generations. I...I don't think anyone can put a summation on this Bill more eloquently than those people that are on public welfare themselves. Now, what I'd like to do is quote from the February 1994 Issue, or copy of Illinois Issues, page 13, from and article written by Donald Sevner. Nobody is more eager to see President Clinton fulfill his campaign pledge to end welfare as we know it, than those people who receive it. Their stories tell of a system that is degrading, confusing, uncaring and punitive. They tell of living life on the edge where one mistake turns progress into defeat. Where efforts to better themselves are often stymied by an inscrutable, inflexible and inconsiderate bureaucracy and where incentives to work are frequently overshadowed by incentives to lie and to cheat. Welfare has but one purpose laments, and I delete her name, a Chicago woman who is trying to escape it by opening her own business, and that purpose is to keep you down. I think she says it more eloquently than all the speeches that we can make. The time for talk is done. There is no such thing as a perfect piece of legislation that ever has come out of this chamber 83  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 or probably ever will. But time for talk is over and as President Clinton said himself in his State of the Union address, it is time to change welfare as we know it. This Bill takes a gigantic step in doing that and maybe from the dissolving of the system as we know it, we can begin to put a system back in place that rewards incentives, that gives people a helping hand when they need it, that provides a true safety net instead of as the woman in the article has quoted, of just keeping people dependent and killing their self concept and self image. Enough talk, we've talked about changing welfare for 25 years and that's all we've done is talk. This Bill changes it. It's time, it's time, it's time. Vote 'aye'."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Saline, Representative Phelps."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Will the Sponsor yield, please?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Stephens, my line of question is more to continue along the philosophical direction that you have opened and, first let me say that you and I don't really live that too far apart. The area of the world we're probably what, less than 150 miles, maybe 100 miles? I have relatives living in your district, I think you have some living in mine, so, we probably can't be that far off on thinking because of the kind of people that we represent. Would you agree with that?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative Phelps, I believe I got married in your district and I would suggest that there are many similarities, but I would also suggest that this Bill addresses the entire State of Illinois and there are 84  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 without question, districts that are very dissimilar that will be affected by this Bill. But this issue is more overriding than just a casual difference between your district and mine, or more substantial district between your district and district further away, but I would grant you that there are some similarities, many similarities."

"Representative Phelps."

"Thank you, for spending some money in my district. I hope the minister didn't charge to much. Would you also agree that, and you and I have talked about this before, that since we've been here, we came in the same year, that most of the issues, at least I can attest to what I can recall. In this Body that we've deliberated and talked about have transient the party lines, have focused on real issues trying to solve, make real solutions, meeting the real needs. Would you agree with that?"

"Representative Stephens."

"In reference to your question, I will tell you that this Bill is going to receive bipartisan support, in my opinion. It certainly did in the Senate. It got 43 votes and I think this is typical of a Bill that we may not all agree on, but will receive votes from the south, southern part of the state and from the north; from your side of the aisle and from mine. This is a...one of the Bills to which you refer."

"Representative Phelps."

"Well having said that I guess, with somewhat agreement with my two questions, as you know and Representative Blagojevich referred to our welfare plan and I really don't think, or don't see too many major differences with the intent. And I don't think the question here today is whether we want to change the welfare system, but how. 85  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 And, since I've been here, under Speaker Madigan, I have seen efforts, yes there's been a lot of things that have avoided bipartisanship a lot of times. But for the most part, on issues that goes along with my first question to you that transients party lines, he has recognized the value of trying to put coalitions together, task force and SO forth, to discuss how we can come together on such a highly controversial, comprehensive question that have...we have allude to...caused, that's caused 30 and 40 years to go unsettled. With that in mind, why wouldn't there not be an effort, instead of trying to ramrod this thing through, having more discussion, setting up a bipartisan task force and try to mingle the best of what we have, with what you have, which I feel you'll find is not that, all that different. Because I...I agree with the two year cutoff too, but there is a difference in someone having a good reason to stay on after two years possibly, that you would recognize. I...I must, you can't be living in a different world SO close to where I'm living to know that there are people who are trying to get off welfare. And sometimes, two years just won't cut it. Now, is there nothing in this Bill to address what happens after that sincere effort, that deserving person versus the undeserving, is there anything in this Bill that puts some sort of mechanism to judge who those people are to separate the good from the bad, the well intended and not the well intended, and then look beyond that two year period?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Mr. Speaker, in response to the question, there is nothing in this Bill that separates good people from bad by definition or otherwise. I suppose in a broader sense maybe that's going to happen in response to the 86  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 legislation. I will tell you Representative that when we refer to the 24 month limit of benefits; first of all, the department's average term of benefits is 18 months, give or take a month or so, depending on which year we're referring to. Secondly, these are families who are about to phase off of the system anyway. Their youngest..."

"Representative Stephens."

"Their youngest is 13 years old. At the time of implementation their youngest may be 17, at which time they're less than a year away from being terminated from AFDC benefits anyway. This is just bringing a little more reality into their family. And I would tell you, and you know this in your district as well as mine, that there are working poor. There  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 they put forward, which I feel need to be recognized somewhere or other, someway or other. But let me just finish by maybe this question. I'm sure you're aware that in our welfare plan, House Bill 5, which I had brought up and presented in Privatization Committee, and hasn't been acted on yet, tries to deal with the fraudulent activity that's going on in our AFDC program. And this is patterned after the law in California, which has returned $46 for every $1 spend for this program. Now, number one question, do you address the fraudulent behavior in this Bill and at the same time I had learned after presenting this Bill from the Public Aid Department testimony and inquiries to my office prior to going to the committee, that they can already to this, what I was trying to propose. They feel that they have the administrative power to do that now and my question, to expand on that broader is beyond the fraudulent question is that, what else is in your Bill and may be in my Bill that has the Public Aid's authority to implement anyway if they have the courage or the money to do so?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, the last part of your question, I...I cannot answer, but I...I will tell you that your Bill, there is a lot of good in your Bill and we have looked at it and we think that it needs a little work, a little massaging. There are efforts that will follow this piece of legislation, not only this year, but between now and 1999 that will address many of the concerns that have been sincerely been brought forth here today. Representative Phelps, I will work with you, our side of the aisle will work with your side of the aisle. As a matter of fact, when I presented a portion to this Bill in your committee 88  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 when you were chair two years, and as I was...in my opinion being victimized by Members of the committee and some testifying against the Bill inappropriately, you stood in my defense and said these words and I paraphrase, that the Representatives Bill may be a little bit before his time, but it's an issue that we must deal with in this Legislative Body. Now, you might not agree that the time has come yet, but I would remind you and remind all of you that what we are doing here is a step in the direction of welfare reform. It is a major package, but it does not include every facet of welfare reform that is finally necessary. That will take more time and we will work with you, I pledge you that, Sir."

"Representative Phelps, could you bring your remarks to a close it's almost ten minutes."

"To the Bill Mr. Speaker, thank you. I think we all recognize that the question obviously here today is not, do we need welfare, it's how we need it. And how can we best deal with those folks who are the most vulnerable and have the minimal negative impact by the decisions that we make within the welfare reform. I believe and firmly believe that we could be facing the same type of situation as DCFS faced in letting the courts mandate to us how much expense it's going to take to resolve all these other transitional people in other departments because of this legislation. So, I believe what we have here is a new term. Instead of a mandate, we have a bandate. It's only...it only addresses one portion of the problem and I regret that it does."

"The Lady from St. Clair, Representative Younge."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?" 89  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 15th Legislative Day

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Stephens, I wanted to ask you a question having to do with the provision of your Bill about starve the baby. That provision having to do with an additional child not being eligible to receive public assistance. Have you thought about the fact that that child would be put in an emotional and psychological situation in which they would be unwanted, that they wouldn't have an opportunity to the food, that they would not have an opportunity, to...they would be stealing the heat from the other children, or the lights or the clothing. Have you looked at this from that standpoint that that child would have a tremendous loss in self esteem in an environment in which it was not wanted; have you looked at that?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative without a doubt, we have looked at that and as you know, this doesn't take food out of a babies mouth. Welfare, the food stamps are still there, you know that. The housing allowance is still there, the Medicaid benefits are still there. Your implications and your characterization of that portion of the Bill, ma'am are not only wrong, I believe they are inappropriate."

"Representative Younge."

"Is it true that that family would have from $30 to $60 less a month for that additional child. Doesn't that take food and doesn't that take resources out of the...out of that childs existence?"

"Representative Younge, Stephens."

"Well, Ma'am, the grant varies from family to family depending upon the size, but I would suggest that they would have no less than any other family in Illinois."

"Representative Younge." 90  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"The fact is that that's $30 to $60 less for that particular family. I mean, you don't deny that your Bill would take resources from an innocent child, a child who had nothing to do with the fact that it was here. And are you asking us to just leave and...and not follow our responsibility under the constitution of the State of Illinois to end poverty, to provide for the general welfare of people? Are you asking us to shift our responsibility for the public from this Body and not protect the innocent?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Mr. Speaker, to...in response to her question, this Bill does protect the innocent and this Bill, as to the dollars that you refer to that we're taking away, which I don't think we're taking anything away from anybody, but those dollars will be being shifted to transitional day care and job training to help these families more capably help themselves. And isn't that what welfare was meant to be?"

"Representative Younge."

"Do you know what the standard of need means under the Illinois Department of Public Aid Code?"

"Representative Stephens."

"That's determined by the department as to what a family of that size needs are."

"Representative. Younge."

"You understand what it is to provide? It provides cash assistance for the health and well being of a child. Do you understand that your provision would take assistance away from a newborn child?"

"Representative Stephens."

"I understand that those cash dollars that we're 91  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 talking about are not vouchered in anyway. There is no record of how that cash is spent, and I would tell you again that that is a minor comparison to the cost of the Medicaid benefits, the Public Aid health care benefits, the housing and the food stamps that that child needs and as any other family in Illinois that's expecting a baby this month, their...when families grow, there is...there are considerations as to what the rest of us in that family have. And what the rest of us in that family have is we have the blessing of a new child and each of us have a little less maybe for ourselves, but a little more to share."

"The time has expired. Representative Younge can you bring your comments to a close please?"

"Yes, I certainly will bring my comments to a close by saying that several people have said that they feel very uncomfortable with various aspects of this Bill, particularly the one having to do with the fact that if there is an additional child that no additional funds will come to that family. We should feel very uncomfortable with that because we really do not live up to our responsibility under the State Constitution to provide for the general welfare of our people. And we put, by this Bill, the responsibility for an alternative system on the very department that cannot in any way come up with an alternative system. If they could have come up with an alternative system, they would have done it by now. We cannot just relegate and delegate that responsibility to a department that does not have the creativity or desire to help people to be self sufficient. I think that the thing that really worries me about this starve the baby section of this Bill..." 92  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"You can bring your remarks to a close please."

"... Speaker, it is very much, we act, if we do this, like the animal kingdom. Frequently in the animal kingdom when there is a sick or weak or very dependent little animal born, then the family devours and kills that little baby. And I think that is exactly what is happening here in reference to this Amendment, we would destroy the self esteem, we would destroy the humanity, we would destroy the humanness of a new child and not accept our responsibility for a human being. I don't think the founding fathers thought that that would be what would be the callous attitude and I'll ask you to think seriously, we're all Christians and religious people think seriously about your responsibility under the Constitution as you vote on this measure."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will." Davis, M.: "Representative, is the federal government now drafting legislation or discussing legislation in reference to welfare?"

"Representative Stephens."

"By the federal government, do you mean President Clinton or the Republican Congress or Republican Senate, want all of the above?

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "I will accept all of the above."

"All right. Okay." Davis, M.: "I think I hear Mr. Gingrich speak on it frequently."

"Yes. There are many welfare legislation proposals pending but I can tell you according to recent remarks made by Congressman Shaw, who is the Chairman of the 93  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Sub-Committee on Human Resources, a meeting will be convened on Monday of next week, letter dated February 9, 1995 to the U. S. Chamber of Commerce."

"Representative Davis."

"So that will be next Monday and think you will be available."

"Representative Davis."

"I'm going to ask that...this is the next question but I hope you'll answer briefly because this is, you know, time. Will we be required to adopt legislation that concurs with the federal legislation in order that we can benefit from matching grant programs?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Will you be...will we as a Legislator, Legislative Body be allowed? The process allows for that, yes, Ma'am."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "If we don't concur with a lot of the federal legislation that is drafted we will not be allowed to apply for to get those matching grants. Therefore, my question is, why are we fast tracking this legislation before the public gets an opportunity to even testify? What is that we don't want them to see the light of day on?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Public testified on this Bill in Executive Committee, as which I am the chair and which Representative Santiago is the Vice...the Spokesman for the Minority Party, he will testify to the fact that they were there and the reason we're doing this is because Illinois is a leading state and Governor Edgar is a national leader and Lee Daniels is a Speaker and he is a national leader and we recognize that and we are giving the people of Illinois and the people of American what they demand." 94  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Representative Davis." February 10, 1995 Davis, M.: "First I'd like to ask, again I'd like to ask, how can we as Legislators give to the Department of Public Aid the right to draft so called emergency policies which will actually be the Bill. See this really isn't what's going to happen, what going to happen is whatever these departments develop in reference to emergency policy."

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, as you're well aware the Legislative Body has a direct oversight as to those rules."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "I just ask him not to mumble. Representative, are you aware of the responsibilities that already exist in the Department of Public Aid? And there is one section of your Bill that states, that if people who are licensed, for example, your attorney's or counselors or dentists, who are licensed to practice, if they're 30 days behind in child support, that they can lose their license. Which in my opinion will cause them to lose their ability to pay the child support. There are people who do get ill, there are people who have accidents, you know there are many reasons that could delay this, plus I am afraid of the department's ability to take on new responsibility."

"Representative Stephens."

"Yes, Ma'am, I am very much aware of that and I'm glad you brought it up because it's exactly what we want to deal with and there is a restoration process as to the license. If there is some accident that's caused the person to be incapacitated, that they had to fall behind on their child support payments but that's the heart of the issue. If somebody is a lawyer is the State of Illinois and has an AFDC family that they're failing to support, that's exactly 95  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 who we're trying to deal with. We want to go after them, we want to go after them in 30 days and I would suggest that if we don't do it in 30 days let's do it in 29."

"Representative Davis. You have only 30 seconds left." Davis, M.: "I know. But in the section that talks about a parent who is 18 years old or less. Does that mean the boy and the girl or does that mean just the girl? Who is required to stay at home? It just says the parent, now certainly no one is a parent alone. There is a male parent and a female parent. But you can answer that later. Let me merely state that this is a serious issue, it is a very significant issue. I think that it requires time to hear from people like Linda Mills, people like Doug Dugmeir and people who are working in this field..."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "...plus what the ramification will be. I don't think it's something that should be on a fast track, I think we should respect the public enough to give them an opportunity to testify in a committee on these Bills. I don't understand why anyone on either side of this aisle would pass an ambiguous...ambiguous nebulous piece of legislation that doesn't really state how certain important things will be done. I believe we should know and not leave it up to administrators, who we have said in the past, made poor decisions, we've changed them frequently enough. So here we're going to have a person who just makes up the rule based upon what's happening and call it an emergency procedure? I think we need to give this legislation a lot more thought, I think we should do what another Representative..."

"Can you bring your remarks to a close, please?" 96  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 15th Legislative Day Davis, Μ.: "Yes. Thank you. I think we should consider important enough to make it a bipartisan issue, as has been done in the past on many important issues. The citizens of Illinois are important whether they have lost licenses to past laws or whether they have licenses to be dentists or whether they have a welfare check. They deserve to be heard by this Body before we ramrod legislation through here. Thank you."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lopez."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, would there be good cause exemptions or exceptions to the labor fair requirements, for example, such as illness or disability?"

"Representative Stephens."

"If you're referring to truancy, that doesn't fall into that definition."

"Representative Lopez."

"Would this requirement apply to gifted students who may not currently attend school on a regular basis? Other states, for example, have implemented welfare reform that generally use sanctions in case poor attendance was considered in relationship to academic performance. So would all the school districts...would all the school districts apply the same attendance standards?"

"Representative Stephens."

"If your question was, will all the school districts have the same attendance? The answer is no."

"Representative Lopez."

"If not, then why...is there a general standard that will prevent equal protection challenges?" 97  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995

"Representative Stephens."

"Are there general protection...I'm sorry, I can't hear all your questions completely. I apologize."

"Representative Lopez."

"Is there a general standard that will prevent equal protection challenges?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Not in the Bill but in the process, if you're still referring truancy, yes."

"Representative Lopez."

"Where is it in the Bill?"

"Representative Stephens."

"If you're still referring to the truancy aspect of the Bill, there are other rules and statutes that govern that at the State Board of Education. There would be no need to put that in the Bill. If that winds up being a problem in the...in months later or in future years, certainly we could address that but I don't believe that it's necessary to have it in the Bill."

"Representative Lopez."

"So what you're saying is that different children in different districts will have different standards, is that what you're saying?"

"Representative Stephens."

"No."

"Representative Lopez."

"I believe that's what you said a couple minutes ago. Now when you deal with the...with the truancy, we're talking about irregular attendance, not truancy. It says irregular attendance."

"Representative Stephens."

"I don't believe that was a question, Mr. Speaker." 98  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"Representative Lopez, do you have a question?"

"I'll rephrase it then."

"You're running out of time, Sir. Rephrase it fast."

"Do you mean irregular attendance or are you meaning truancy?"

"Representative Stephens."

"We mean children who aren't going to school, on a regular basis. Each district can help define that with the sign off by the State Board of Education as to what they're going to describe as a truant. And the purpose again of this Bill, is if children aren't regularly attending school, whether you want to call them truants or irregular attendees...is irregardless. The issue is, if they're not going to school this Bill is going to crack down on that family and help them understand the importance of education and getting their children to school."

"Representative Lopez. You have one minute, Sir."

"So, what...well it is obvious we're not going to get the straight answer to this. But, to the Bill, Mr. Speaker. I want everyone to listen to this because we're here to follow the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Illinois. So to you I read the preamble to the Illinois Constitution. We the people of the State of Illinois grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He has permitted us to enjoy and seeking His blessing upon our endeavors in order to provide for the health, safety, welfare of the people, maintain a representative and orderly government. Eliminate poverty and inequity, do ordain and establish the Constitution for the State of 99  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 Illinois. So I urge everyone to before you vote on your green button, listen to the preamble to the Constitution of the State of Illinois. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Pugh."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Wennlund, this legislation..."

"Representative Stephens."

"Stephens."

"They all look the same I know..."

"I'm sorry."

"...over on that side but Representative Stephens."

"It's a cultural thing. Representative Stephens, how would this legislation be affected by the federal legislation that's coming down? Dealing with welfare reform."

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative, it's been suggested that I have given elusive answers to questions and I would suggest to you that because the questions that I'm getting are similar to the one that you just gave me. What federal legislation, exactly what federal legislation, that's coming down? Which package is going to pass, how is it going to effect our Bill? You tell me exactly what you're talking about, I'll give you the exact answer."

"Representative Pugh."

"Well, let me ask this. If there is federal legislation designed to affect welfare reform, will we have to conform with that legislation?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Not necessarily. If it something that we want, as a 100  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 program in Illinois, yes. Or if it is a program that the federal government mandates that we must have, yes. But some of the programs provided in past legislation that authorizes welfare benefits as to be  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day Washington."

"Representative Pugh."

"The question was asked previously, how much will the program cost? Is there going to be a cost? Is there going to be an increased cost?"

"Representative Stephens."

"No."

"Representative Pugh."

"To the Bill, Mr. Speaker. The Sponsor of the Bill put this legislation in the context of a philosophical piece of legislation. Webster defines philosophy as the love of the search of wisdom and/or knowledge. And it has to do with ethics and logic. It seems to me and the definition of wisdom is to know God. I don't think that God would be in favor of a piece of legislation that's going to put children out on the street, to allow babies to be starved. If we're going to change welfare, which we all have agreed we need to change welfare that the system is not working, then there needs to be some input from the people that this is going to affect. It needs to be some input from those individuals who have become successes as a result of the welfare system. And I might also state that, often times when you say welfare, just like crime, you put into context minorities. But only 37.9% of the people on welfare are African-American decent while 39.7% of people on welfare are of other ethic persuasions. I submit to you that this Bill is not a...attack against African-Americans or minorities but more an attack against the poor of this state. And if we're going to continue to subsidize race tracks, subsidize the building of bond infrastructures, road construction, united centers then we should at least give some attention to the descendents of the people who 102  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 built this great nation we are a part of. Thank you very much."

"The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Currie."

"Thank you, Speaker and Members of the House. I do believe that every Member of this chamber and certainly the Sponsors of House Bill 209 sincerely wish to improve the way our welfare system works. My fear is that House Bill 209 will not lead to improvements in the welfare system but, in fact, will make a bad situation worse. We've heard many of the flaws in the Bill, many of them I'm sure came about through hasty drafting. There's no question that passage of this Bill will result in an explosion of the case load in the Department of Children and Family Services. An explosion of that agency is neither able to meet managerially nor in terms of financial resources. But I would like particularly to focus our attention for a moment on the family cap proposal, the so called starve the baby provision in this Bill. First, a few words about the AFDC case load. First, it isn't exploding, it isn't on the increase, it's not growing by leaps and bounds. That case load is relatively stable. Second, what's the family size? The family size, the average family size on the AFDC case load today is two kids, just like everybody else's. Third, the value of the welfare benefit. Over the last 20 years we have decreased the real value, the buying power, of the AFDC cash grant by 50%, 50 worth half as much today as it was 20 years ago. I assume the reason for the starve the baby provision is that we hope to send a message, we hope to change the incentives if a woman is making the decision whether to become pregnant and whether to carry a baby to term. I would suggest to the Members of this 103  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 chamber that our current AFDC family policy includes plenty of incentives to have no more kids. Today the AFDC cash grant meets 40% of the state's own definition of the standard of need. That is all we provide in the cash grant is 40 cents of every dollar, the state says it takes, to keep body and soul together in the most modest, the most impoverished fashion. So if the economics works we've already got the sanctions, we've already got the incentives and the fact is that, in the area of childbirth economic sanctions may not do the trick. The states with the highest birthrates on the AFDC program, in this country, are the states with the lowest not the highest benefits, states like Mississippi and Alabama. So it seems particularly unlikely that passage of this measure will encourage rational women to have no more children when they're on the Aid to Families with Dependent Children. The current level of support already discourages that option. To deny that family an extra $36, barely enough, barely enough to keep the kid in pampers, is certainly not going to change the cost benefit analysis. What it will do is to reiterate the point that our welfare system, providing only 40% of what it takes to keep food on the table and a roof over the head, has decided to hit you one more time. This is a punitive proposal and the people it punishes will not be the moms but the children. The children are reason for our social service system, for the Aid to Families with Dependent Children system. Passage of this Bill would say this Legislature turns its collective backs on the youngsters of this state, of the children who rely upon us to take care of them. We need a social safety net and passage of the starve the baby program would destroy the slim social safety net that is now in place. I 104  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 urge a 'no' vote."

"The Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Hartke."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Representative Stephens, when you were working to put this piece of legislation together, did you give some thought to the fact that, just possibly, we may be shifting some of the costs from AFDC to the Department of Children and Family Services?"

"Representative Stephens."

"That concern was addressed and we understand, after finally understanding all of the implications of this Bill, that that's not going to be the case."

"Representative Hartke."

"Excuse me. Did you say that would not be the case?"

"Representative Stephens."

"We do not believe that its going to be a problem, no."

"Representative Hartke."

"No. What this Bill is going to do is put people back to work."

"Representative Hartke."

"Okay. I don't how anyone can argue with your concept here of putting people back to work, getting deadbeat dads to pay their bills, making parents more responsible and those type of things. Because, I think we all want to do that and my office, of course, has received all kinds of phone calls on both sides of this issue. We want to help kids, we want to help kids who are in need of help but we don't want to hurt those little children either. Did you by chance talk to the Department of Public Aid when you 105  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 were trying to put this together?"

"Representative Stephens."

"They were at every meeting."

"Representative Hartke. Representative Hartke."

"I couldn't hear your response."

"Representative Stephens."

"I think my microphone's wearing out, Mr. Speaker. The Department of Public Aid was at every meeting held on this issue."

"Representative Hartke."

"Well, usually when we pass a heavy piece of legislation there are certain groups that are in support of this legislation and certain groups that are opposed to legislation, correct? Which groups are in support of this legislation? The taxpayers federation, are they in support of this?"

"Representative Stephens?"

"Representative, I did not seek lobbying groups to either come out with a position in favor or neutral or opposed to this legislation. I know that there were witness slips filed in the Executive Committee. I don't recall which were the proponents and which were the opponents. As to your direct question, I think that there was no position taken by the Illinois Taxpayers Association."

"Representative Hartke."

"I think that correspondence has come across my desk that the Illinois Right of Life Coalition is opposed to this legislation as well as the Pro-Choice Coalition. And that really puts me in a bind because I really don't know which way to go on this thing. But I think that both of them have in their minds and hearts that they are concerned 106  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 about children and I think that all of us want to get adults who have had an opportunity to attend school and generation after generation seem to be on welfare, we want to get those individuals off. My concern is for those kids. I know you've looked long and hard and all of us have on pieces of legislation, this year and in the past, on a bipartisan method, trying to solve that problem. I would like to support you on this but I see some glaring problems here. And I know the Department of Children and Family Services has had problems throughout the year and my fear is that many of the problems that we're trying to solve in one area are going to be shifted in state government to the other. Some point in time I hope to support this piece of legislation but I don't...I'm not prepared to do so today. I think we need welfare reform but I'm not sure this is the answer. Count this as a maybe Ron and I will, hopefully, sometime before this year is over, be able to support you on a solid concept for true welfare reform that is going to be meaningful in the State of Illinois. To me to move those people off of the welfare and to the workplace. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"By the way, Mr. Speaker, before I proceed, you should note that Representative Frias has agreed to yield his time to me and also..."

"That won't work, Sir."

"Well, fine. Also, I request that if this received the requisite number I would request a verification."

"You'll be recognized at the time for that purpose." 107  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Thank you.

February 10, 1995 Will...the Sponsor will yield, Sir?" "He will. As long as you're kind to him."

"Thank you. I'll be as kind as the Speaker allows me to spend the time being kind. Representative Stephens, relative to the setting up of the program by the Department of Public Aid, is there any oversight responsibility the General Assembly will have or is the Department of Public Aid going to set this department up by January of 1999 by its own rules?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative, as you well know when the Bill sunsets, there will have to be in place authorization legislation introduced in a manner...in a timely manner to replace what we're calling for in the sunset in elimination of the current programs."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, Representative, doesn't the Bill call for the department to set...to implement the program? And do...I don't think we have any oversight over that during that implementation period under your Bill, do we?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Not the implementation."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, let's go on. Relative to this family cap matter. Would it be fair to assume that you believe that we should have this cap because you think that there will be some control over the number of children on welfare if you don't give additional benefits if there are additional children. Are you trying to control the number of children born into the welfare program?"

"Representative Stephens."

"It's my position and it's clearly a common sense 108  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 measure that is well accepted by the public, those of us and those families fortunate enough not be on AFDC or not to be on public aid in any form, it is something we live with everyday. It's just an everyday occurrence and this is a simple dose of reality."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Well, that's really no answer to the question. Let me ask you this, is there any evidence in any state that has introduced a similar program that would indicate that there has been a reduction of child bearing among unmarried AFDC recipients?"

"Representative Stephens."

"We believe in the State of New Jersey similar legislation but not the same has resulted in approximate 18% reduction in AFDC case load."

"Representative Lang."

"Representative, my information is that New Jersey has not issued any kind of report and that Mississippi and Alabama, that have similar programs, have increased birth rates among these...these categories. Do you have any comment on that?"

"Representative Stephens."

"No, I don't."

"Representative Lang."

"Let's go on. This provision seems to be drafted with no exceptions for birth that may be as result of rape or incest, was that intention, Sir?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Was it our intention to leave rape and incest? Well, our Bill does not address the manner of conception at all."

"Representative Lang."

"So that if this unwed mother is raped or is pregnant as a 109  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 result of an incest, you would cut off those benefits as well, is that correct?"

"Representative Stephens."

"The child born under those circumstances would receive medical coverage, housing and food stamps, substantial benefits, Sir."

"Representative Lang."

"But the other benefits would be cut off just as a mother who conceived not through rape or incest, is that correct?"

"Representative Stephens."

"There would be no additional cash benefits in either case."

"Representative Lang, you have a minute left."

"Well, others got more than five minutes, Sir. I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy."

"You think I would play favorites?"

"Well, I...we'll hold that thought for awhile, Mr. Speaker. Relative to this personal plan for employment. Does the initiative include any provision for the Department of Public Aid to help people right their plans or to counsel people about what careers may be available for them?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Yes."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, that was a very enlightening answer. Can you tell us what those provisions are, Sir?"

"Representative Stephens."

"In a moment, Mr. Speaker. Please don't take this time and delay away from Representative Lang. I'd hate to perish the thought that I would take his time away."

"We're going to give him a few more moments."

"Representative Lang, the...I stand corrected, the Bill 110  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 does not specifically say that that...but it is the intention of the legislation and for purposes of legislative intent I hereby so state and as the rules are developed, Sir, you will have input into that process."

"Representative Lang."

"So the Bill is silent on this, correct? There is...there will be no help for these people as the Bill reads now to help them write this plan that you require them to have, is that correct, Sir?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative, to say that there's no help for a person, it calls for the person to work with the department, to develop a self economic plan...a self determining...determination economic plan. That's...that implies, Sir, that they will work them. And to say or even to imply that an AFDC recipient is incapable of sitting down and logically thinking through the basics of how I'm going to get a job is ridiculous."

"Representative Lang."

"Representative, what's your goal in cutting off benefits to children under these circumstances that we've discussed?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Mr. Speaker, there are no reduction in benefits to a child. The cash benefits would no longer go to the parent of that child. The child would continue to receive the Medicaid card, housing and other benefits."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Representative, do you believe that the benefits to the mother's in these circumstances, the cash benefits, are SO great that mother's would have children just to receive an extra $36 a month?" 111  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Representative Stephens." February 10, 1995 "The...whether that is true or not, I think many people do believe that. And the point is, that in all of the other families in America, you receive no extra cash when you have a baby. Nor do you receive extra health care benefits necessarily, nor do you receive extra housing benefits necessarily, nor do you receive the other benefits that these children will receive." Speaker Daniels: time, Sir." "Representative Lang, you're just about out of

"Well, thank you. Mr. Speaker, I've got many many more questions but since I don't want to run out of time and I thank you for the Chair's indulgence, you have not been playing favorites, Sir. To the Bill. I would recommend 'no' and 'present' votes and the reason is that this Bill just has too many unanswered questions. It is clear that Representative Stephens can't answer all of them. For instance, the Democratic Welfare Plan that's on the table has a 24 month limit on aid but we have a safety net for people that just can't find a job. After all the job programs we have out there aren't covering everybody now. We'll provide job training money. So we'll provide a safety net, we'll provide benefits to business to hire unemployables or people that need training. There's nothing of that kind in here...this Bill. The Democratic proposal would eliminate fraud both for recipients and providers, the area of fraud is completely ignored in this. Representative Stephens has talked about what people think out there. Well, what people think is that the system is fraught with fraud. So let's take the fraud out of this system, as Representative Phelps indicated earlier, a program in California, which we hope to implement, saved 112  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 $46 for every dollar expended on the program. We can go on and on and on but let me just say this. To punish children for what their parents are doing or are not doing is not what the State of Illinois should be about. If there's a bottom line on this legislation is how does it affect children? We talk about education, we talk about welfare, we talk about health care, we talk about all sorts of things on this floor. But the bottom line of almost all of them is, what's the best thing to do for the children of Illinois? House Bill 209 is not a good deal for the children of Illinois. House Bill 209 will hurt the children of Illinois. House Bill 209 will put a continuing burden on the State of Illinois. House Bill 209 is not what we should be doing in this area. We need strong and complete welfare reform, everybody in this chamber believes that, but to do a sound bite Bill that will simply provide an avenue for press releases saying that we want welfare reform. In the name of just doing it when children will be hurt is not what we should be about, we should not be about the business of hurting children. This Bill calls out for a 'no' or 'present' vote."

"Representative Dart."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Yes."

"How many children are going to be subjected to the Department of Children and Family Services under this Bill?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Did you say how many people would be subjected?"

"Yes."

"Well, everybody on the current caseload, I mean, they wouldn't be subjected to anything. So, if you're...the 113  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 answer I guess is none."

"Representative Dart."

"No. Based on your new Bill the changes that you're going to be making now. How many new children are going to be going into our Department of Children and Family Services?"

"Excuse me. I wonder if the Gentlemen could have your attention. Can the Gentlemen have your attention? Representative Stephens."

"None."

"Representative Dart."

"Now how do you rationalize that with the department's recent change its definition of the neglect, to state the children are neglected or dependent, they fail to receive proper care or nourishment?"

"Representative Stephens."

"There's nothing in this Bill that changes the definition of neglected."

"Representative Dart."

"No. But based on their new definition they will fit under that now."

"Representative Stephens."

"I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I did not hear that question."

"Ladies and Gentlemen. Thank you. Representative Dart, would you restate your question?"

"Based on this new definition and based on your Bill, they will now fit under the definition of neglected children, which will mean they will be brought in...that's their words, not mine, that's a statute. They will now be brought in to the Department of Children and Family Services Neglected Children."

"Is that a question?"

"Yes." 114  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Representative Stephens." February 10, 1995

"You're statement simply is not true. There's nothing in this Bill that changes the definition that you refer to. I f you're referring to the truancy language, that's really weak."

"Representative Dart."

"Mr. Speaker. To the Bill."

"To the Bill."

"Seeing as I'm not getting the answers that are appropriate here. The fact is that this Bill by cutting off children is going to do just that, that it's going to subject them to our Department of Children and Family Services which we all know a great deal about. We all know how great it has been with our children. The director of DCFS himself has said, based on this Bill and similar Bills, there'll be more children coming into our system. We have projected 59,000 children are going in our system and of that 80 to 90% are brought in based on neglect. Neglect can be, for example, when...because of economic reasons, the child is in an environment that's injurious to their health. That's what this Bill will do. For anybody to say otherwise is nuts, that's crazy. People are going to be shifted to DCFS from public aid to DCFS under this Bill. Least under Newt Gingrich we were getting orphanages, with this one we're getting nothing. We're just getting these children who are going to be dumped into this system that we know stinks. We know this system just churns them around, keeps them in it for about five or ten years and then we spit them out to be welcomed into the Department of Corrections. That is what we're going here, we're doing it loud and clear. And I would suggest, if Director McDonald is listening brace yourself, you thought you've had problems before, after 115  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 this Bill is done you don't have enough beds for these kids."

"Representative Stephens."

"I don't think that was a question."

"It's okay. The Gentleman from Winnebago, Representative Scott."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You know, there are a lot of good provisions to this Bill, as many of us have recognized. There are things in there requiring payments from deadbeat dads, there are many things in there to ensure that children get taken of. But there is also an agreement from people on the other side of the aisle as well, that there are many provisions of this Bill that aren't good, that aren't perfect and we heard one person say it's not a perfect Bill. In fact I will tell you this is a Bill that's designed to fail, this is a Bill that trying to push people from welfare into work, which is a very noble goal that almost everyone over here would agree with, probably everyone here would agree with. But this a Bill that is not going to accomplish that. What we have is a provision of and according to Mr. Stephens about 16,000 people who would be affected by this provision to try to move people into work. Where are the 16,000 jobs and what happens to those 16,000 people if they follow all the rules, if they do exactly what we ask of them as a State Legislature? They get the education they're suppose to get, they go through the job training they're suppose to get and there's no job at the end of the line. What we tell them is, that's tough, that's too bad, at the end of two years you're cut off and that's ridiculous, that's not what we should be about. The plan that we've developed, on this side of the aisle, addresses those concerns. We 116  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 should differentiate between the people who play by the rules and the people who don't. We should say to the people who aren't agreeing the rules that that is tough after two years. But for the people who are honestly trying to do something to better their lives and to better their kids lives, we shouldn't tell them that's too bad, just because their two years are up. You know, Mr. Stephens also made a point that it is a simple reality that people live with that they have to decide how many children they're going to have based on their own particular budgets. But it's also a simple reality in this state that we grant a tax deduction for families based on the number of children that they have and nobody disagrees with that. In fact, I'm part of the legislation that would increase that. But it's not to put money in the pockets of the parents. That money is designed to take care of the kids. That money is there so that they can raise their children in an effective and efficient way and that's exactly what the money would do in this particular case too. That were cavalierly dismissing is just saying that we'll cut off people from this benefit because they choose to have more children while they're already on assistance. There is no child care provisions, there's no assistance for trying to develop in spite of what Mr. Stephens has said, for trying to help people develop this plan to get themselves into employment. They simply have to submit it at the time that they submit their application. There's absolutely nothing in here about transportation needs, child care provision, there's references to them but there's nothing concrete in this Bill that's actually going to take care of those issues and those concerns that people have when they try to make their way to work. And I heard something that was 117  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 very disturbing a couple of times. I heard that, yes this Bill isn't perfect but we've got a clammer in here that we've got to do something about welfare reform and we all agree, everyone of us on this side of the aisle agrees with that. I think there's probably a 118 of us in this chamber that agree we've got to do something with welfare reform. But I'll be darned if I... I realize I'm new here but I'll be darned if I knew that one of the rules was, the first Bill out of the box we've got to vote for, whether it's the right Bill or whether it contains the provisions that accomplish exactly what we're trying to do or not. This Bill is flawed, it does not do exactly what we're going to try to do and, in fact, the consequences of cutting off people, even well meaning people who are trying to play by all our rules, the consequences of doing that are going to be seen in the street all over Illinois in everyone of our districts. We see them now and it will be made worse under this Bill and I strongly encourage a 'no' vote on this Bill."

"The Lady from Sangamon, Representative Klingler."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm rising in support of the welfare proposal, reform proposal, but I'm also particularly wanting to address the provision that's been known as the Family Caps Provision. I would point out to Members of the General Assembly that residents of the State of Illinois who work for small businesses, residents who work for corporations, residents who work for cities and villages, residents who work for counties, who work for state government do not receive automatic pay increases with the birth of any additional child. This present system is the only system I know of which gives additional 118  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 payments for additional child. The real workplace does not have this provision and this addition brings some real world reality to the welfare system. My hope if that our provisions in there on encouraging education and encourage in training and going back to work will get these parents back on the work roles where they can then go after their pay increases. Thank you."

"Representative Stephens to close."

"Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I do respect those from across the aisle and all who rose with questions or opposition. I do not... I do not believe that we avoided those questions, I believe that you probably just didn't like the answers which we believe to be the truth. I'll just quickly review that what this Bill does is, talks about family responsibility, something that is a traditional American value. Self worth, working your way up, being responsible for your actions are not things that we ought to be questioning as to there sincerity or as to their effectiveness. What this Bill is, is a major step forward. It is not the end all to every problem that we have with welfare but it is a major step in the right direction, it is part of the Republican package that deals with a broad range of issues across Illinois. And it is...it is brought into that package because it was the voters of the State of Illinois in the November elections that said to us, you have a mandate to deal with the issues as you have described them to us because you have listened to us. The issue of federal, of the Medicaid costs and that being the major issue in welfare costs and welfare reform, we've asked for the federal waiver that would have us hundreds of millions of dollars in Illinois and we wait anxiously for those answers on those waivers. We're doing 119  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 what the people demand in this Bill. It was...the previous Representative from Sangamon referred to a broad spectrum of populations that don't receive extra cash when they have extra children. It used to be the policy in the United States military that when you had extra children you got extra benefits, they no longer share that philosophy because they found too that it made more sense not to have that to be the case. And the issue of fraud, why didn't you address the issue of fraud in this Bill? I will remind the General Assembly, that if you were here last year and for those Freshman that are here and not well informed, we did address the issue of fraud last year and created in the Department of Public Aid the office of inspector general and the purpose of which is to examine and eliminate fraud within the department. Ladies and Gentlemen, I will close by quoting two letters that came to Governor Edgar recently on the issue of welfare reform. One begins, Dear Governor, I support you attempting to reform the welfare system in Illinois. Although I am a Democrat and a Social Liberal, I am also fed up with a system which is supporting...with supporting the existing system. I suggest that those who take from the welfare pot be required to work for their benefits. I don't buy that all work has to be dignified, fulfilling or well paying. I schlep to work and deal with tension everyday, it's the human condition and someone should have the courage to say so and to those who should coddle the...and say that to those who coddle the poor. Thank you for promoting welfare reform and I wish you success. A carbon copy by fax sent to Representative Judy Erwin. I would tell you also that in a touching letter from a welfare recipient. Governor Edgar, I am writing this letter to you because you are the highest seat of authority 120  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 in the State of Illinois. I started to write to President Clinton but I felt that the President is totally inaccessible to the private sector. As a Public Aid recipient for about ten years now I agree that something must be done. I would now...I would never have had child after child if I would have had to worry about taking care of them. I will be 30 years old this year and the mother of five children. Welfare has made me lazy and complacent and with an attitude that the world owes me."

"Excuse me. Excuse me. Could the Gentleman please have your attention? Can the caucus please break up over there?"

"And just to close, Mr. Speaker."

"Staff return to the back of the chambers, please."

"Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. In closing, I would just like you to pay attention to these last two brief paragraphs. I no longer want to be dependent on taxpayers, I want to pay into the system, I want to be able to hold my head up and have pride, I don't want to be embarrassed or looked down upon as being shiftless or ignorant or just slothful. I became those things because of the way the system is currently set up. Sir, I realize you're busy and have very important things to do...more important things to do than to read letters, but as you can see, I really need some direction on this point. And so I am thanking in advance for simply hearing me out and I applaud a Governor of state of the size of Illinois that took time to read from an average, dignified, welfare recipient that calls upon the Legislature to please, please give us a way out. We've listened to your ideas in the Majority Party when you were the Majority 121  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 Party for years and they took us nowhere. Now we are the Majority and we have what we think and the people think are the answers. They're all not perfect answers but we are certainly going in the right direction. I implore you, support this piece of legislation, do what the Senate did, they put 43 votes on it, put it on the Governor's desk, let's make it law and you will see dignity restored to those people who are just American as you or I, that just simply are encumbered in a system now that...from which they cannot escape. I move the passage of House Bill 209, as amended."

"You've heard the Gentleman's Motion. The question is, 'Shall House Bill 209 pass?' All those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; opposed by voting 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take... the Clerk will take the record. On this question, there are 76 'aye', 35 'no', 2 voting 'present'. This issue having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby is declared passed.

"Representative Churchill."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just as an announcement, there will be a Rules Committee Meeting upon adjournment of the House today. Thank you."

"House Bill 231. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 231, a Bill for an Act amending the Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"The Gentleman from Peoria, Representative Leitch."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. One of the finest programs that we've set up 122  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 around here certainly in my career, has been the Comprehensive Health Insurance Program which is administered to citizens in our state who cannot otherwise get health insurance. These are individuals who by definition for qualification in the program have to be turned down by two insurance firms and so as a result we understand how significant their problems are with respect to health. Many cancer patients and others rely on this program for their health care. We are presently authorized in Illinois to serve up to 5,000 people under this plan. To date we are serving about 4,800 people and for many of you who have been striving to try and have someone in your district qualified and put onto the program, you 'll be happy to know that there is no waiting list today. But the problem that we have today and the one that Representative Mautino and I are very concerned about, as Members of the CHIP board, is that in recent survey we've learned that up to 10% of the Members who are participating on the CHIP program are spending over 30% of their income to pay for these premiums. And this is a problem that is of urgent concern, not only to these participants, but to those of us who seek to help these individuals stay out of Medicaid and stay off of...stay out of the program. These are people who want to participate in this program and need to participate in the program. House Bill 231 would enable the CHIP board to work through a program whereby we could identify a means of subsidy for some of these most needy participants in the CHIP program. It's a program that will be very carefully thought through, it has already...this proposal been very thought through by the CHIP board and it is one that we would seek your approval and your authorization to proceed with. It is very good concept, 123  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 it's one we think will be a very good policy for the State of Illinois. And I..."

"Excuse me. I wonder if the Gentleman could have your attention, please."

"...ask for your support."

"The Gentleman have your attention. Representative Leitch."

"I'm available for questions and otherwise would ask for your favorable support. This unanimously came out of committee and I know of no opposition."

"The Gentleman from Bureau County, Representative Mautino."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. I'm proud to stand in support of the House Bill 231. Representative Leitch and I did the language together on this Bill. The CHIP program is something which is of great importance to many people throughout the State of Illinois who are uninsurable. This Bill will allow for means testing so that those who cannot afford the premiums, which sometimes run up in the area of $4,000 per year on a catastrophic illness, will be able to enter the program. This Bill is effective and it leaves the means testing up to the board when the funds are available. That's a key component of the Bill, I think it is an excellent measure, I'm proud to be a Co-Sponsor and I'd like to also ask the Clerk if he could correct the board for the Leitch/Mautino Bill with Representative Poe, Zabrocki and I just noticed there's a mistake on the board and I thank you. I'd ask everyone to support the Bill, give it an 'aye' vote, it's an excellent program."

"Representative Leitch, to close."

"Thank you very much, and Representative Mautino the 124  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 paperwork is there to correct that, if it hasn't already been accomplished. I simply recommend this Bill to you and ask for a favorable roll call."

"You've heard the Gentleman's Motion. The question is, 'Shall House Bill 231 pass?' All those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; opposed by voting 'nay'. The voting is open. And this is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take the record. On this question there are 113 'aye', no voting 'no', none 'present'. And this Bill having received the Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. House Bill 442. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill. Excuse me. For what purpose does the Gentleman from Whiteside arise? Representative Mitchell."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My button was on, I turned to speak to Representative Leitch and it went off. Someone mentioned that I hit the button again, it did not go on. You closed the voting. I would like to be recorded as a 'yes'."

"I think we extended that courtesy."

"Let the record reflect that I was voting 'yes'."

"Okay. I think the courtesy was extended to Representative Pugh but we have taken the record so the Journal will have to reflect that you would have been recorded 'yes'. House Bill 442. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 442, a Bill for an Act amending the Board of Higher Education Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"The Gentleman from Coles, Representative Weaver." 125  15th Legislative Day Weaver: STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This is not the first time nor the first General Assembly to see this idea. It's a good idea that has been refined over and over again and it's a good idea who's time is finally come. What this Bill does is reduce both the size and cost of government by eliminating two layers of unneeded bureaucracy at an estimated savings of two to two and half millions of dollars per year, by elimination of the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents. It empowers seven universities, through their own individual governing boards that serve as volunteers dedicated to those institutions. It even removes partisan politics by establishing a new requirement that no more than four of seven appointed Members be from one Political Party. As a matter of fact, in the non-partisan fashion, this Bill in an identical form passed the Senate yesterday with bipartisan support including a...the vote of a former floor leader on the Democrat side when the Democrats were in the Majority in this chamber. Another thing this Bill does, it enables the continued growth of our public policy university, Sangamon State, to grow as a part of the University of Illinois, which began these programs in our capital years ago. And it also adds a private university member to the Illinois Board of Higher Education. Now let me tell you briefly what this Bill does not do. It does not prevent collective bargaining contracts. The contracts that are enforce right now continue, as a matter of fact in our view, this expands collective bargaining because it allows those unions currently serving Sangamon State to expand to the University of Illinois upon completion of their current contract. This Bill does not increase the power of the Board of Higher Education nor does it 126  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 disadvantage budgetary any of the individual universities. It does not affect the election of the University of Illinois trustees and it will not substantially increase the cost at the university level for services since most of them are currently performing these services already. And it will not flood Springfield with lobbyist but, in fact, will enable a stronger bonding between the universities with their Legislators and permit dialog previously prohibited by the systems. Matter of fact, in Senate Hearing Room, the other day, to give you an idea of what we're facing right now. There were 21 members of the Board of Governors and Board of Regents staff there during the hearing. I dare to say that we won't see near that kind of flood of lobbyist when each of the universities takes over their system. So I will be happy to answer any questions, Mr. Speaker."

"The Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Because of the serious nature of this legislation I am joined by seven of my colleagues to remove House Bill 442 from the Short Debate Calendar, from short debates."

"It will be removed from short debate. Representative Granberg, do you wish to address the Bill? Representative Hoffman, the Gentleman from St. Clair."

"Thank you, Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Representative, this would be taken and change the governership...governance of higher education and make go from four boards to nine boards, is that correct?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Actually we'll go from five boards to, I believe, seven, 127  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 eight, nine, yes five...you...sometimes we leave out the Community College Board of Trustees but that's an honest mistake."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Other than the Community College Board of Trustees we presently have the Board of Regents, the Board of Governors, U of I Board and S.I.U. Board, I believe."

"Representative Weaver."

"That's correct."

"Representative Hoffman."

"This would say that each individual college then has their own individual board, correct?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Actually we're addressing only those universities under the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents systems. There are five under Board of Governors and three under the Board of Regents. One of those, Sangamon State, will be under the governance of the University of Illinois. But each of them will have their own volunteer board, they serve at no pay."

"Representative Hoffman."

"When you create these additional boards, won't you need additional staff to work at these boards as well as the fact of the travel expenses which will be reimbursed, I would assume? The expenses for clerical work that would have to be duplicated and several other expenses. Wouldn't there indeed be an increase in the cost of doing business with more bureaucracy instead of a decrease in the cost of doing business."

"Representative Weaver."

"Actually, when Representative Granberg, the other day requested a fiscal note, the results of the fiscal note are 128  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 that there would be no cost increase. As a matter of fact, our estimates are, in fact, that there will be approximately two and two and half million dollars in savings. The administrative effort that you spoke of, in most cases in our conversations with the presidents with the various universities effected, indicated that they are already doing much of that work and it would require very little, if any, additional staff."

"Representative Hoffman."

"I'd like to briefly just ask a few questions about the Sangamon State and U of I merger. Under this, it's my understanding that the University of Illinois would essentially have Sangamon State University would become a satellite of that university. With regard to the labor contracts that presently exist at Sangamon State University, I believe that there are 162 professors that are in a bargaining unit. It is my understanding that they will be merged with the 12,000 professors currently at University of Illinois for a...the only way that they will be able to get a contract is to do it as one bargaining unit. In effect, what that would be doing Representative, is voiding the present bargaining unit at the Sangamon State University. Is that right?"

"Representative Weaver."

"No, that's not exactly correct. As a matter of fact, the 162 that you mentioned, that may be the total faculty but not the total faculty are members of the bargaining unit. The current contract has approximately two years to go to completion. It will go to completion and then after that point the bargaining unit, the union itself, has the opportunity to organize or reorganize, not only Sangamon State but the entire University of Illinois system. This 129  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 is not just a satellite we're talking about, we're talking about Sangamon State becoming part of the whole unit, University of Illinois."

"Representative Hoffman."

"The University of Illinois does not presently have an additional satellite in Springfield, do they? This would be there first satellite for the university? For instance, S.I.U. now has a medical school that presently exists here in Springfield. I believe there's a $30 million facility or something there abouts that they presently work out of. University of Illinois does not presently have a satellite in Springfield, is that correct?"

"Representative Weaver."

"That's correct. Although Sangamon State, as a public administration university, is actually conducting curriculum that was started by the University of Illinois here years and years ago. So essentially, U of I had a presence here quite some time ago, Sangamon State was formed, it took over the curriculum that the University of Illinois had started here."

"Representative Hoffman."

"To the Bill. Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I think that the problem here and I understand possibly what's going on and what may be going on politically behind the scenes. But the problem here is what we're doing, instead of creating less bureaucracy, we're creating more. We're going from four boards here to nine. So if you want to get rid of bureaucracy, you don't increase the number of board members, the number of clerks, the number of people who have to report. You don't increase the number of boards, what you do is you attempt to consolidate and attempt to have cost savings in that 130  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 manner. In addition to what we're doing, we're essentially saying to the people who presently work at Sangamon State University, we're saying now you're going to be lumped into a bigger system, you're going to be less represented and your ability to organize is going to be depleted. That's what this is all about. And thirdly, what we're doing, is we presently have a satellite, a satellite medical facility for S.I.U. which has administration, which has various other functions, bookkeeping, et cetera. That could possibly then be merged into Sangamon State, so we don't have to have a whole additional bureaucracy built in and moved from U of I to Springfield. What we're doing is costing the state taxpayers much much more under the..."

"The Chair recognizes the Lady from Sangamon, Representative Klingler."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm rising in particular support of the provision of this Bill which concerns the merger of Sangamon State University in Springfield with the University of Illinois. The new university would be known as the University of Illinois at Springfield. The City of Chicago has the University of Illinois at Chicago and the university receives tremendous benefits from being located in Chicago. In addition, the City of Springfield will also benefit tremendously by having the presence of the University of Illinois in Springfield. A citizens group has been formed in Springfield, known as the Greater Springfield Committee for Educational Excellence. This group of citizens is very concerned about long term economic growth in Springfield, long term educational opportunities. And they strongly feel that the provision providing the University of Illinois will be a strong one. I've talked with President Naomi Lynn from Sangamon State 131  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day University and President Stanley February 10, 1995 Ikenberry from the University of Illinois and they have pledged to work very closely together in a year long transitional program to work on the many questions that do remain. I think that this will be a very careful and deliberate transition that will work for the best of the university and for the City of Springfield."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Currie."

"Thank you, Speaker and Members of the House. I rise in opposition to House Bill 442. In my book, if it ain't broke it doesn't need fixing. And I think our current system serves both this Legislature and our state institutions of higher learning well. The Board of Regents and the Board of Governors do a major job of making sure that there is equity within the system, equity across universities, no matter their location. To...to get rid of those two institutions without giving more authority to the Board of Higher Education means first of all, that the newer more vulnerable institutions are going to find themselves facing a very rocky road when it comes appropriations time and when it comes to policy decisions that affect their activities. I am afraid that without giving comparable power, now enjoyed by the B.O.R. and the to B.O.G. to the Board of Higher Education, we will find ourselves, as a General Assembly, sitting as a school board. We're the ones who are going to make the decisions about whether Chicago State University gets a little more money or a little less in the coming fiscal budget. think that's not the right role for us as public policy I makers. I don't think that we're suited to it and I'm sure that we wouldn't much enjoy it. Our current system protects the newer vulnerable institutions, schools like 132  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Governors State University, schools like Chicago State University. And I see no reason to leave those institutions hanging out in the wind because some of the more powerful institutions would rather move forward with their own boards. Last year when this legislation was introduced it at least had the sense to increase the authority, increase the responsibility of the Board of Higher Education. If it makes sense to abolish the intermediate board, it's critical that we expand the authority of the Board of Higher Education. It's also clear that last year when this issue was discussed in this Assembly it became clearer and clearer that saving money was not the name of the game that, in fact, the creation of these new boards with the payment of travel expenses and so forth and so on and adding new administrators, new bureaucrats to each university level instead will cost the taxpayers money. Our estimate a year ago was close to $10 million, I thought we heard, we've heard earlier today, we've heard all week that the lesson November 8th, was that the taxpayers want fewer bureaucrats, not more, they want less spending, not more. And I would say in the name of educational policy as well as in the name of fiscal management, the right vote on this measure is a 'no' vote."

"The Gentleman from Kane, Representative Hoeft."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The governance of the State of Illinois higher education is called the system of systems and it has been ridiculed virtually nationwide as a system of hodge podge governance that has a middle management called the chancellors. This middle management is concentrated in Springfield, it uses money, it stifles creativity and shows all of the negativisms that bureaucracy as shown in this nation. I was talking to a 133  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 president of a university, one our fine strong universities. And he said, Representative Hoeft, I don't know if I'm suppose to be talking to you because I think I'm suppose to be going through our legislative aide. That's also censorship, I think this is so badly needed as a reform for our universities so that each of the universities can be independent of the bureaucracy, can grow, can bring its alumni in can keep its money and can focus on the students rather than focus on the bureaucracy. One last point, I was talking to a professor at Sangamon State and I asked the question, Sir would you prefer to be a professor at Sangamon State or the University of Illinois? And he said, he would much prefer to be known a professor in the University of Illinois system. I think this is needed and I strongly support it and ask that it be passed."

"The Gentleman from Macoupin, Representative Hannig."

"Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. I rise to oppose this proposal. Let me tell you what I think this is about. First of all, we've heard that it saves money. Now I've checked some news releases and some newspaper reports and I see where in a February 18, 1992 letter to the editor that the Lieutenant Governor sent throughout the state, he talked about a $3.4 million savings. But in a March 12th article in the Springfield Journal it was only 1.5 million and then in the Chicago Tribune on June 22nd, the article says, while Kustra has acknowledged that abolishing the boards would not necessarily save money, advocates said independence is what is important. So I'm not sure that the issue is saving money, in fact, the Lieutenant Governor talked in the 134  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 committee yesterday about how the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents had started out as two small bureaucracy's. And he talked about how they had grown into $3 million agencies that they are today. But I'm not sure that I accept his solution that we should abolish two boards and replace them with nine. I'm not sure that planting the seeds of this bureaucracy, in the fertile fields of nine universities, is better than two. Nine boards that will eventually hire there own lobbyist, probably more than one, have legal counsel and more staff. And since the universities receive almost lump sum budgets, how we even know how much bureaucracy we are creating. So nine bureaucrats instead of two is not in my mind what the citizens of this state sent me here to do. The University of Illinois has indicated that they will ask for some money to absorb Sangamon State, we've heard estimates ranging anywhere from one to $4 million. In fact, when our staff tried to do a calculation of what they thought this would...what this proposal would do, we came to the conclusion, that this would cost...this would cost Illinois taxpayers a net of $4.6 million. So in my mind it's phony to say that this is going to save money, that's not what this Bill's about. We've also heard that this might streamline the government, the governing boards. In fact, in Crains in 1992 the Lieutenant Governor said, the number one issue is to strengthen the hand of the board of higher education. Okay, I think we agree with that. He also said a little later, though if we are going to remove this intermediate overseer, the Board of Regents or the Board of Governors, you'd have to replace what they are doing with something, Kustra said. The only thing that makes sense, since we cannot give everything down to the local campus 135  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 because then we'd have ten different phytoms running around doing their own thing. With little check and balance it's obviously that some of the control has to be at the Board of Higher Education and I agree. And he made those statements about two years ago and the question I have, where is the proposal, where is the...where is this flushed out language to give some of this power to the Board of Higher Education? If we're to abolish this in between board most of the power should go to the lower universities. But obviously, he agrees with us that some of the power should go to the Board of Higher Education. And if I had a university in my district I'd be wondering what exactly this language is about. Why should this language not be flushed out now? Why should we not have an opportunity to see what it is that he's talking about that's going to be done later and give the Board of Higher Education additional powers? I think this part of the idea is really just half baked and that we ought to have the opportunity to see what exactly it is that the Board of Higher Education should be doing in this overall comprehensive rewrite. So it seems to me that this does not streamline government. So again, what is this about? Well, I if you ask me, it's about politics, it's about a power grab. You know the Lieutenant Governor had served ten years in the Assembly and never did deal with this issue. But it seems like that when the Board of Governors, a few years ago, fired a friend of Governor Edgar's at Eastern, a light bulb went on. The Lieutenant Governor formed a task force of eight handpicked members to study the reorganization issue. After two meetings they issued a two page report, recommending that the Board of Governors and Board of Regents be abolished. But you know, it's kind 136  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 of interesting to see that in this whole proposal the Governor's appointments go from 26, from 27 to 65. That the appointments to the Board of Higher Education are reduced from 17 to 15 but the Governor's appointments go from 10 to 12. And it's interesting to note that now you have to be a Democrat or Republican to serve on this board. Suddenly, I guess if you're an Independent, that's not good enough, we have to have only Democrats and Republicans. So it seems to me that we should be voting 'no' on this proposal, that it does..."

"Bring your remarks to a close please, Sir? Thank you."

"Yes, I would just ask my Members and all the Members of this Assembly to consider that it is not economics that driving this issue because it does not save money, it does not streamline government or the higher education system in this state. That it is simply a big power grab by the Governor and that we should oppose it."

"The Gentleman from Sangamon, Representative Poe."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen. I rise in support of this Bill, being from Sangamon County, there's a lot of excitement in our area, we feel that it brings growth to our area and stability in establishing students and the growth of students in our area. They are excited, as we talk to the people in our district, they are quite excited about the possibility, the growth and we would like to urge you all to vote for this because we see it as a plus in our economics in Springfield."

"The Gentleman from Kankakee, Representative Novak."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?" 137  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE Speaker Daniels: "He indicates he will." February 10, 1995

"Yes, Representative Weaver, in committee yesterday there was a few questions that I had in mind but I was unable to ask the Lieutenant Governor, so I would like to ask you. What is the...first of all, what is the effective date of this Bill?"

"Representative Weaver."

"January 1, '96."

"Representative Novak."

"Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My second question is, what is the length of the current labor contract at Sangamon State University with the university professionals?"

"Representative Weaver."

"I guess I'm not sure of the question. Do you want me to read the entire contract to you or the date or what?"

"Representative Novak?"

"I want to know the length of the labor contract that is currently in existence at Sangamon State University."

"Representative Weaver."

"It's a four year contract with approximately two years left to go."

"Representative Novak."

"Okay. So there's two years left to go? Assuming this Bill becomes law and the Governor signs it on January 1 of '96, how does this effect the current labor contract in effect at S.S.U.?"

"Representative Weaver."

"It does not affect the current labor contract. That contract will go to its expiration. As a matter of fact, earlier this morning we had a meeting in Lieutenant Governor Kustra's Office with the labor folks and also with 138  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 President Ikenberry of the University of Illinois who assured us that the contract will not be affected and that they will fully intend to allow that contract to go to its expiration date."

"Representative Novak."

"Well, am I to surmise then that the University Professional Bargaining Unit has signed off on this legislation? Is that correct?"

"Representative Weaver."

"I'm not aware of what their position is on this...on this Bill, at this point. I would assume they're probably opposed to it. But I think...I think the point that needs to be made is that, after the expiration of the contract then U.P.I. or whatever I.F.T. is involved with the faculty union out at Sangamon State is then in a position to organize, not only the folks at Sangamon State but also organize the folks at Chicago and at Urbana, if they SO desire. All we have done in this Bill is simply shift from Sangamon State being the...the bargaining agent or, excuse me, the administrative bargainer from across the table from the union to Urbana, which is basically a unit. The University of Illinois does not distinguish its satellites, as was previously mentioned, but it considers itself a unit university, all under one series of statutes and all under one constitution. It does not want to treat any of the units, whether it's U.I.C., University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana or the University of Illinois at Springfield any differently from the other."

"Representative Novak."

"Well, Representative, you know I spoke to some representatives of the unit yesterday and they indicated to me they had some very, very serious misgivings about this 139  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 whole arrangement. And they weren't really questioning about the restructuring of higher governance but essentially they had serious misgivings about how this legislation is going impact their current bargaining unit and the future of them to maintain a very good working relationship with the university management at Sangamon State, which I would presume it's going to be called the University of Illinois. So for those reasons...those reasons I rise in opposition to this Bill. It was my wishes that maybe that organized labor could've sat down and had a little bit longer time to negotiate their concerns and speak about their concerns with the Sponsors of this legislation, including the Lieutenant Governor's Office, to try to ameliorate these concerns so we could get on with this legislation. One other question I had to you the Sponsor, Representative Weaver. We...it's a pretty well known fact that we have paid lobbyist in Springfield that represent various universities. Now we do have a paid lobbyist for the University of Illinois, correct? That lobby's in Springfield?"

"Representative Weaver."

"That's correct and you're alma mater, Eastern Illinois University, is in the process of hiring their lobbyist, even though, they're still under the Board of Governor's system."

"Representative Novak."

"The point I was trying the get across, I know Northern Illinois University has a paid lobbyist, Southern Illinois University has a paid lobbyist. You know, this restructuring puts every university on a level playing field when they come to Springfield to lobby for General Assembly appropriations. Now you're holding up your finger 140  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 and you're saying that's fine, level playing fields are fine, but little old Governor State that gets about 1.7% of higher education funds, has to compete with the University of Illinois that gets 51% of higher education funds or S.I.U. or N.I.U. for that matter. To me it seems to put them not on a level playing field. I don't think their influence is going to command that much of a presence, visa a via Stanley Eikenberry walking into the appropriation room and getting an audience, so that's another concern I have about this legislation. I would just urge my colleagues to not to support this Bill."

"The Gentleman from DeKalb, Representative Wirsing."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this Bill and I guess some of the things I've heard talked about thus far have...really do concern me. First of all, when we talk about savings or costs to...in elimination of the Board of Regents and the Board of Governors. Let me give you an example, under the Board of Regents, which has Illinois State and Northern Illinois University as well as Sangamon State. Northern Illinois University and Illinois State are of the size that they already have those departments, those personnel on staff that would be there when they would receive their separate boards. As we've looked at that aspect of it, that is almost a total savings with the Board of Regents gone, with those two universities. With Sangamon State going under the University of Illinois which is already equipped and set up because they do have their own board, there own separate board. I think we have to look at this in a total...in a whole and as I look at all of those seven universities that have come under the current system, in a lot of ways 141  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 they've been restricted in attempting to do what they want to do and in a lot of ways they've been restricted in coming to Springfield and getting some things for themselves and I think we need to recognize that. Our system of state universities in Illinois...here in Illinois, has changed as time has progressed on. Many of those universities have become dramatically bigger and they need the ability with their own separate board and the flexibility to address those particular needs of either their geographical area, their facility, their student body as a way to move even more into the future with a much stronger state university system. This is a...this is an attempt that's been around for sometime and I guess when people are concerned that there wasn't enough time for...for the unions to have debate and talk about what this Bill calls for, in regards to Sangamon State, I'm sorry I can't agree with that. Because this Bill has been around at least for six years and there was plenty of time during those periods...during those six years, and to have that discussion. So I think as I run down through all of the...all of those who feel or show concern for this process. I think it would be a great day for the Illinois and for our state's university system when each college has its own board, that gives them the opportunity to really, I think, move forward and service their areas and regions much better. And I encourage a 'yes' vote on this legislation."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "Thank you, Mr. Sponsor...Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will." Davis, M.: "Okay. You know I've really been studying this issue, 142  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 I've been listening to people and I am still seeking an answer as to what the purpose of this change is. Why are we increasing the number of officials or bodies that have to come down here and lobby. Can you answer that?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Well, we're not increasing the number of officials. As a matter of fact, in view of the Senate Hearing the other day in which 21, count them, 21 staffers from the Board of Governors and Board of Regents showed up to lobby, I think we can do it a heck of a lot easier with only nine. The three purposes of this Bill are, to save money, to provide independent action and self governess by each of the universities and to get rid of some bureaucratic middle ground that we absolutely don't need in this state."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "You're saying that by each individual university having a board of what, seven people each, and these seven are appointed by the Governor? Let these people will better serve their university and they will all be responsible for seeking funding on their own from this Body?"

"Representative Weaver."

"No. They wouldn't do that the same way that the Board of Governors members and the Board of Regents members, they don't currently lobby us, they have hired lobbyist to do that."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "Each university will hire a lobbyist and each university will hire its own legal firm and you're telling me this is going to save money?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Well, there is no requirement in this Bill that each 143  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 university hire a lobbyist. What we've run up against in the past is the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents have actually prohibited their presidents from coming down and talking to Legislators. I think that's wrong. I think they ought to have the right to talk to the Legislators that represent them in the General Assembly. And I also think that we can save money by allowing the universities to continue their current practice, almost everyone of them, of retaining legal firms on their own, we have duplication there. They also perform a lot of the administrative duties of the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents central offices do no now, there's duplication there. So actually that's what our savings are going to be, not because we have now nine volunteer boards that serve with no pay, but we have no central offices. And I might add, if you've visited the central office here locally, the Board of Governors, you'll understand why their paying, out of our tax dollars, $16,000 a month in rent."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "We did have visits by school presidents, who certainly talked to our committee, I mean I certainly talked to presidents from colleges. Paula Wolfe has certainly addressed our committee, Delores Cross has certainly addressed our committee and others have been asked to come down and testify, so that's really not true that they can't talk to us because they've certainly been doing that. To the legislation. I'd like to say I got a letter..."

"I wonder if the Lady could have your attention, please." Davis, M.: "I received a letter from students at Sangamon State 144  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 University who requested that their university remain autonomist and states they were the only public policy institution in the State of Illinois. I'm also concerned that you're doing some union busting when you bring Sangamon State College in under the umbrella of Illinois, what is it, University of Illinois, that doesn't have a bargaining unit there or bargaining agreements. You know I really think it's a power grab, I think it's a power grab and I'm really ashamed that Edgar would this to be in total control of all the universities and not leave them with any autonomy. I think it's unfair to the public, I know it's going to whiz out of here because you do have the votes but I don't think you have the moral authority. And I really think those of us who vote for that, you're going to live to see the day that you regret it. You're going to see these colleges being treated unfairly by bodies just like us sitting here and not giving them the dollars they need to educate young people. I think it's wrong, I see no need for it and I think it's an opportunity for the Governor to just appoint, appoint, appoint and have these huge bureaucracies that are responsible to him and I don't think it serves well in the Illinois Legislature for us to vote for such packages. We need to look at this concern, is education going to be effected? We're not going to save money, we're increasing these budgets by about $3.5 million and I think we're going to live to regret it."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from McDonough, Representative Meyer."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."

"Could the Gentleman please have your attention, please?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As a resident of McDonough 145  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 County, home of Western Illinois University, I rise in support of this Bill. I think that by Western Illinois University having its own board of directors, it will be able to focus solely on the mission of that institution and by doing so can benefit greatly the educational system that Western Illinois has. To the benefit of the students address any and all concerns of the parents...of the students of Western Illinois and enhance the opportunities that Western provides to the communities in the Western Illinois region that are serviced by that institution and the programs and affairs that they offer. I urge all in this chamber to vote 'yes' on this Bill."

"The Gentleman from Washington, Representative Deering."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Representative Weaver, there's been a couple of comments here and I have a little trouble understanding the answer or maybe there hasn't been an answer given. But you've stated several times that we're going to cut back on the Board of Regents and the Board of Governors to save money but yet we're going to create nine additional boards. Now when you add up two and two, that doesn't equal four to me. How do we save money by creating more bureaucracy at the individual institutions?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Well, Representative, if you take a look at how boards are funding, they are not paid. They serve as volunteers and are reimbursed only for their expenses. What were are, in fact, eliminating by doing away with the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents are the central offices, which have applied for a budget expenditure this year of 146  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day $3.9 million, volunteer boards." February 10, 1995 so that's were savings occur, not with the

"Representative Deering."

"Yes, that is true to a certain extent, but what about the additional staff, what about legal advice, what about bargaining units, if you have to bargain if the facilities want to organize? You're not going to get all of these individuals to work for the university for nothing, just to say that we work for university."

"Representative Weaver."

"In nearly every case were we have broached the subject and had indepth discussions with the individual universities, they are already performing these services. They already have legal staff available to them, they already have a president's office and administration office, that conducts a lot of this administrative duties now. What we're seeing is duplication of effort, that's another reason that we want to get rid of the central offices is because they're already doing this stuff. They will need very little additional funds. That's why we're saying, instead of savings the full $3.9 million, we're probably going to save between two and two and one half million."

"Representative Deering."

"One final question, going back to Sangamon State and you answered questions for Representative Novak. However, there was another question I wish he had time to ask. It is your understanding that under the current collective bargaining agreement, it'll stay in place until it expires. I'm not in full understanding of what happens after that contract expires. Will you be able to negotiate as an individual entity just for Sangamon State, will you have to 147  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 include all of the universities or all of the faculty under the U of I letterhead or how will you be able to do that? Will Sangamon State University's collective bargaining unit be able to negotiate and extend their contract for their employees at Sangamon State U.?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Well, you have to understand that even though that contract will continue on until its normal expiration date, Sangamon State University will cease to exist. It will not be Sangamon State University anymore and so for the existing union to renegotiate with, they can't renegotiate with something that no longer exists. What the...page 420 on the Amendment, on your desk, indicates is the sole bargaining agent after that point in time will be the University of Illinois because it is a unit school, it is all under one set of statutes and one set of rules."

"Excuse me. The Chair would like to recognize the presence of the Lieutenant Governor of the State of Illinois, Robert Kustra. Lieutenant Governor Kustra. Representative Deering."

"Okay. Thank you. And a final question, Representative, S.S.U. will no longer be in existence if it goes with the U of I. So will the board members at the University of Illinois...at the University of Illinois, will they allow the faculty here at their satellite school to bargain just for that satellite school or if the other faculty members in the other schools underneath the U of I umbrella do not choose to bargain, will that cease to exist here at this facility?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Well, at the risk of repeating myself Representative. The University of Illinois operates its entire system under 148  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 one set of statutes and one set of rules. And it would be impossible for them, if not unethical, to treat any of the individual units differently than they treat the others. They have to treat them all the same. They have to bargain as an entire unit, rather than as this part over here and that part over there."

"Representative Deering, your time's expired. Can you bring your remarks to close?"

"Thank you for your time, Representative Weaver. I believe in that last remark you just answered my question. I take it as, at the end of the '96 agreement then that collective bargaining unit most likely will be defunct. But I don't plan on supporting this Bill, I can't see how we can continue to expand the bureaucracy. I would...hopefully my colleagues on both sides of the aisle would follow my suit."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from McClain, Representative Brady."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Representative, is two...I have two questions regarding this piece of legislation. Is there anything implied or intended in this legislation that would give more grants, more authority to the Board of Higher Education?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Absolutely not."

"Representative Brady."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Second question. It is written into this legislation that the...the members of each board would come from diverse political backgrounds, in other words, there would be no more than five from one political party. Four, excuse me, that right. Is it your intent or 149  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 do you believe that the intent of this that the members of each board would also come from different geographical areas throughout the state or concentrated in the university community itself?"

"Representative Weaver."

"No, early on there was a misnomer applied to this provision which called them local boards. Our intent is not that they be local boards, that they be representative of the local area, the regional area and statewide. So...and the beauty of all this is that the universities themselves, along with their alumina association, their foundation boards, they can recommend candidates for appointment to this board. And as you mentioned, we have a new provision that doesn't currently exist under the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents, where a Governor, whether he's Republican or Democrat could literally stack the board with the members from his own Party. This new provision requires that no more than four of the seven board members be from one Political Party. So I think it's a direct move towards non-partisanship."

"Representative Brady."

"Thank you, Representative Weaver. To the Bill, Mr. Speaker. I stand in support of this Bill. I think the Bill has numerous merits, which have been mentioned. And coming from a university community where Illinois State University is located, I would ask the Members of this Body to join in my support of this Bill."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Turner."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Weaver, we've had some discussion about 150  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 this Bill in the past. I have a couple questions regarding the president's salary. How will that be determined now with this new board, how will we determine the salaries of the various presidents?"

"Representative Weaver."

"As you know the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents currently set their own president's salary subject to review by the Board of Higher Education. That would continue under the new boards, the new boards would then establish the present salary with the approval of the Board of Higher Education."

"Representative Turner."

"So there is that possibility that..."

"Excuse me. I wonder if the Gentleman could have your attention, please? Very important Bill." Turner:. "So there is that possibility that the disparity that currently exists between many of our state universities would only be further driven as with this reorganization? I have one other question, regarding this reorganization, I can remember a few years back when we had a cutback Amendment here in the House and that the assumption was that if we reduced the House size by 59 Members that it would be a savings to the General Assembly. And I think over the last 15 years, if you check, since the House has been reduced or the last 12 years, I don't think that salary has went down and I would...my only guess is that this organization that you're proposing now, which is going to increase the bureaucracy and not take it down, I don't believe that, in fact, the moneys will be. in fact, be any savings but that, in fact, we'll find that it will, in fact, raise. Regarding the board, you said that it will be made up of volunteers and they are not paid individuals, am 151  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day I correct?"

"Representative Weaver."

"That's correct."

"Representative Turner."

"In the background I thought I heard February 10, 1995 someone trying to describe the background of the individuals that have to serve on their board. What qualifications are we saying, other than political affiliation?"

"Representative Weaver."

"Those are the only qualifications that...that the Bill addresses, that no more than four of the seven members can be from any single party. It's the same as it was when you helped us get the Bill out of committee a couple years ago and we really appreciated that to."

"Representative Turner."

"That's when the process allowed us to bring Bills out of committee and bring them to the floor where all the Members could, in fact, discuss these issues, where we could be more enlightened to it. But that process changed considerably over the last two or three weeks. But, needless to say, the other question..I should save the fact that I should state is that there...it appears that Chicago...the U of I currently, along with Sangamon State, will receive 53% of the projected budget for 1995, which leaves 48% for the other schools. Chicago State right now I think gets about 2% of the '95 budget and currently their faculty and staff are probably the lowest paid faculty and staff of all the Board of Governors schools. And you say that this proposal will put those schools on a level playing field? It almost sounds to me like the same adage that people give to minority community when they talk about affirmative action. And they say well you know we're going 152  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 to give you 10%, well if you'll give me 10% and I had nothing there's no way that we're going to be back on a level playing field. And I would assume, or my assumption here is or my gut feeling is, is that the same holds true for these various universities. My other proposal would be, is why don't we name these universities, all of them, the University of Illinois. And maybe at that point it might put us on a level playing field. Are you aware, Representative, that the University of Illinois, Chicago Circle Campus, housekeeping contract right now is given to a firm in Indiana. And if we're about a state school and trying to promote state employment and trying to make this a better state, how would or are there any safeguards to stop that type of activity, or would the individual boards would be left up to them to make that determination?"

"Representative Weaver. It's only about a minute's time left, Representative Turner. Representative Weaver."

"Well that's an interesting question. I would assume that the University of Illinois subject to the same safeguards and auditing practices that govern all of the state agencies. But you know you made an interesting comment before about how poorly funded you think Chicago State is and how the faculty is on the lower end of the salary scale. And how in the world can you make that statement and then go back home and tell the people at Chicago State that represent that you didn't vote to change that. Why would you be in favor of something that horrible continuing? Why do you want to make it go on and on and on? I think it's an opportunity here to make a major change in how we govern higher education and do better for those individual universities." 153  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 15th Legislative Day

"Representative Turner."

"To the Bill, Mr. Speaker. Let me just say this and I think most of you are aware. Right now there's been, you know, we've been struggling the last few years in terms of minority recruitment or faculty and staff in the various schools throughout this state. As well as the admissions of minority students in other state schools. And I can truthfully say, that there has been some improvement as a result of the Board of Governors and the Board of Regents putting pressures on these various schools. Nothing to the extent of the activity of that of Chicago State or Northeastern or Governors State, schools that have predominately minority students enrolled in those institutions. And when you think about the City of Chicago and the attitude that prevails in that town and it has been called by some one of the most racist cities in the country, I would only fear that this school and these institutions having to stand on their own would only...would not be treated fairly even as it moves through this process down here. We're already setting up war zones in terms of Caps on Cook County versus the rest of the state. There's already fights for a shortage of dollars regarding elementary school and how we're going to deal with school funding. Right now I see downstaters preparing for the battle against Cook County and my only fear is that with those institutions of higher learning in the City of Chicago, those institutions that serve predominately minority communities, and even where politically in the city we are not always together that they will not receive their fair treatment. And it is for that reason I rise in objection to this House Bill 442. I think it's an idea that certainly is well intent but I think that in terms of 154  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 the way that the State of Illinois operates and in terms of our past history and the way we divided dollars up in this state, that we all should be on the same train, on the same boat and when the boat goes down we all go down together. And I...this Bill go down."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Will, Representative Wennlund."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I rise to correct what may have been a false impression created by earlier remarks about Governors State University. First of all, I want to tell you that Governors State University hold heartily supports this legislation. The president of Governors State University, Paula Wolfe, strongly supports it, she looks forward to the challenge, to govern themselves and she also looks forward to the challenge to come down here and get a bigger piece of the pie. The comments that Representative Novak made, with respect to the small share of funding that G.S.U. currently gets, 1.7% of the higher ed budget. She looks forward to coming down here and making the case as to why the General Assembly should increase funding for Governors State University and what a fantastic job it's doing. But you...I just want you to know that Governors State University and its President Paula Wolfe strongly supports this Bill, as do I. Thank you."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Schakowsky."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I rise in opposition to House 442 and particularly the section that deals with union busting, that's what it is, it's union busting. Although you listen to the Sponsor of the legislation and he makes it sound like the union has this wonderful new opportunity that as 155  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 it's dissolved at Sangamon State University it can now go about the business of organizing the rest of the state. Well, we're talking about 12 to 15,000 employees across the state, the law school, the medical school and what we're talking is what the Sponsor knows is an impossibility for the union to do that. It also means that the future opportunity for the faculty at the University of Illinois in Chicago to petition for representation for an election something that could happen in the very near future is out the window right now. They're not going to be able to have a bargaining unit for their campus in Chicago. This was a decision that was made by a tiny group of men in the backroom without even consulting with the University of Illinois Board of Trustees. The Sponsor knows very well in the meeting this morning that he seems to characterize as a hunky dory meeting with the union and President Eikenberry. Was a meeting were no progress was made, were the president made it clear that he wasn't going to budge on his union busting position. And so I would urge, just on the basis of that alone, I think that's enough for a 'no' vote on House Bill 442."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang.”

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates he will."

"Thank you. Representative, can you tell the rational from when we're talking about cutting bureaucracy. From going from 27 total appointments for these boards all the way to 65 appointments? It's an increase of over 130% on these appointments. Why would we want to do that?"

"Representative Weaver."

"It's provide each individual university with a governing 156  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 board that is dedicated to the future of that university rather than having their loyalty split among three or five universities, many of which they may never have visited."

"Representative Lang."

"As I recall in previous legislation there was a screening counsel for appointments. Why was that not included in this legislation?"

"Representative Weaver."

"We eliminated that provision simply to provide the individual university more input into that process, so that their alumni association, their foundation, even perhaps some of the local folks in the Chamber of Commerce and some of the local businesses and residents and student body could then offer their suggestions for appointments to this board."

"Representative Lang."

"What is the rational for giving the Governor 80% of the appointments on the Board of Higher Education?"

"Representative Weaver."

"I don't know that that's changed. Has the Governor not appointed the Board of Higher Education in the past?"

"Representative Lang."

"He was appointing of 10 of 17 members, under your Bill he'd appoint 12 of 15 members, that's a dramatic increase. And we would like to know the rational for that."

"Wonder if the Gentlemen please, could the Gentlemen have your attention? He's got some critical, decisive and important questions that he asking. Could we have your attention? Thank you. Representative Weaver."

"Representative, the Governor appoints them all now, with the exception of the student member. And what we've actually done, is to add a private college member to the 157  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Board of Higher Education."

"Representative Lang."

"Let's go on to another area. How do expect Governors State to...a two year institution, to compete on the...on a playing field even if it's the same playing field with the University of Illinois. How do you expect them to fight them for funds?"

"Representative Weaver."

"I expect them to compete better because they have folks like you to represent them. Now if you take a look at the numbers of the Representatives, the Legislators that represent the three Chicago area schools, Governors State, Chicago State and Northeastern, about a third of the Legislature can call those schools constituents. And if a third of this Legislature cannot better understand and better represent the colleges and universities within their constituency perhaps we need new Legislators."

"Representative Lang."

"Let's go on to the area of collective bargaining. You said earlier that you had no idea how the unions felt about this legislation. Isn't it true that you were at a meeting just this morning with President Eikenberry and members from the I.F.T. and the A.F.L.C.I.O., where the members of the I.F.T. and A.F.L.C.I.O. indicated their very strong opposition to this Bill?"

"Representative Weaver."

"No, as a matter of fact they didn't oppose the Bill, they opposed a provision within the Bill and they said if we would change that, they would withdraw their opposition."

"Representative Lang."

"Have you changed it?" 158  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995

"Representative Weaver."

"Well, we...during that meeting we spoke with President Eikenberry, who tried to educate us all in the statutes and the rules under which the University of Illinois is governed and we found that provision...we simply were not able to delete it."

"Representative Lang."

"So you haven't changed it, so it's still on the Bill, so it's clear that the union support it? Let me ask you another question."

"Your time is...Sir, your time is getting close."

"Thank you. Has the General Assembly ever previously imposed a certain or defined a certain bargaining unit for any unit of government in this state?"

"Representative Weaver."

"It's been an issue that the labor board has dealt with in the past but because this is...at least since the ten years that I've been done here, the first time that we've ever made a major shift in education like this, I don't think its ever occurred before."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill. Again, I have many more questions but in interest of time and you know we're always interested in time around here. Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen, this Bill should be opposed. The answers by Representative Weaver are I'm sure are the best he can do but really it don't answer the questions. Collective bargaining rights of teachers are being destroyed. Their are certain transition costs from Sangamon State merging with University of Illinois that won't work. Governors State and other small institutions cannot compete with the 159  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 University of Illinois. Here I'm an alumni...alumnus of the University of Illinois but this isn't going to work, it's certainly unfair. The Bill doesn't work, it needs to be redrafted. If we're going reinstitute these colleges, let's do it in a fair. Vote 'no'."

"Representative Weaver, to close."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. You know, a lot of the previous speakers on the other side of the aisle have indicated that their particular college was underfunded or their faculty were particularly underpaid and I find it very incredulous that they would want to continue supporting a system that does that to their school. What we're proposing here is a remedy, a situation where they can become closer supporters of their constituents, the universities in Illinois. A previous speaker also said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Well, obviously, if you get in touch with your university you'll discover it is broke because they are underfunded, it is not equitable and it  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 students and citizens of Illinois who look to higher education for the future of our great state. Thank you."

"Heard the Gentleman's question. The question is, 'Shall House Bill 442 pass?' All those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; opposed by voting 'no'. The voting is open and this is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take the record. On this question, there 66 'aye', 48 'no', none voting 'present'. And this issue having received the Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. House Bill 444. Excuse me, Senate Bills, First Reading."

"Senate Bills First Reading. Senate Bill 10, offered by Representative Stephens, a Bill for an Act concerning Public Aid. First Reading of this Senate Bill."

"House Bill 444, Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 444, a Bill for an Act that amends the Illinois University Trustees Act. Third Reading of this Bill."

"Representative Wirsing. The Gentleman have your attention, please. Representative Wirsing."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. House Bill 444 amends the Election Code, the University of Illinois Act, the University of Illinois Trustee Act and the Illinois Governmental Ethics Act. It changes the University of Illinois Board of Trustees to an appointed board from an elected. Provides that the nine appointed trustees, no more than five may be affiliated with the same Political Party. It provides that appointments shall be made by the Governor with the advice and consent of the Senate. The members are made. Under the current law appointments to serve six years stagger terms as those these 161  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 appointments as I stated were...had been elected and the bottom line here is to move those to appointed."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentlemen from St. Clair, Representative Hoffman."

"Yes, Representative, what would happen to the current trustees?"

"You would like to ask him some questions, Sir?"

"Yes. I apologize. I apologize."

"The Gentleman indicates he will yield, and you question is what would happen to the current trustees. Representative Wirsing."

"The current trustees, the appointment would...all the trustees would be appointed at one time, the current trustees then would be, I guess out of a job."

"Representative Hoffman."

"So, these individuals who ran for an election and won, would not be entitled to serve out their term of appointment?"

"Representative...Representative Wirsing."

"Yes, but there is nothing to prohibit the current members from vying for being on that appointed list."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Has the Governor indicated to you whether he would appoint the current elected members of the U of I Trustees to those openings?"

"Representative Wirsing."

"He has not."

"Representative Hoffman."

"To the Bill, Mr. Speaker. You know, you've got all the Constitutional Officers, they only thing that we've got left is we control the University of Illinois. I mean you don't have to take that away from us too. These are 162  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Superintendent's that were elected and controlled by the local voters. Here were going to case now we're going to decentralize the situation with the Regional Superintendent's and put the power again in central government. And I don't want to do that and we shouldn't be doing that. We should leave this board at the discretion of the voters so they can make a choice about who they want to serve and run the University of Illinois. So, we ought to be opposed to this."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang. Five minutes."

"Thank you for the warning, Sir. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Thank you. Representative, I noticed that these new appointees will be free from the filing any economic interest statements. Is that correct?"

"Representative Wirsing."

"That's correct."

"Representative Lang."

"Well then, who are these people accountable to, Sir?"

"Representative Wirsing."

"Well, that's something that doesn't change. Same as those...those in that office now, or other appointments, I should say under the same process."

"Representative Lang."

"Sir, that is a good attempt at an answer but it's not really an answer. Today the members of the U of I Trustee Board are accountable to the people, are they not?"

"Representative Wirsing."

"Other appointments that are made throughout the state, then this appointed board, becoming appointed board would be under that same premise as what we've got." 164  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day

"Representative Lang." February 10, 1995

"Well, I'm not going to get an answer on this one so let's go on to another one. I note that you're reducing the number of non-voting students members to one, is that correct?"

"Representative Wirsing."

"No, that's not correct. It's one from each campus."

"Representative Lang."

"Let me ask you...let me ask you this, what is the rational for this Bill? Why is it necessary, what will we accomplish, how will it benefit the citizens of the State of Illinois to have people who are appointed by the Governor as opposed to people who are elected by 10 million people, are there abouts."

"Representative Wirsing."

"I appreciate you asking that question because there is a whole series of reasons. Let's take Southern Illinois University which has an appointed board and let's look at those two universities. In recent history we've seen politics, because of the elected board play into the realm of selection of a chancellor in recent years and a whole variety of things. We haven't seen that politics in Southern Illinois Universities appointed board. I think that's one reason. The second reason and I've talked to some people who have ran for this trustee board over the years. And one of their concerns is that the University of Illinois being the University of the State of Illinois, having a good representation on the board of trustees from across the state. And because the process of election the board of trustees, then an individual runs just as a Constitutional Officer does across the State of Illinois without access to funds and that whole process so it 165  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 becomes more of an population center from where you are rather that gets you elected rather than representing the total state because the University of Illinois is the University of the state and so, those who have ran has said that's our only concern when we ran that there ought to be representation from a variety of industries and a variety of areas from across the state and the elected process just does not do that."

"Representative Lang."

"Do you think the Governor should appoint State Representatives and State Senators under the same theory?"

"Representative Wirsing."

"I'm not sure I can answer that."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, Representative it's your Bill. I'm asking your a question, do you think the Governor should be appointing State Representatives and State Senators under the same theory?"

"Representative Wirsing."

"Certainly not."

"Representative Lang."

"I don't feel that's parallel in comparison."

"Representative Lang, there's a minute left, Sir. Representative Lang."

"Thank you. To the Bill, Mr. Speaker. You know, I amazed, we've had a whole day of questions to people on that side of the aisle and no one can seems to answer a question. No bodies got the answer. Nobodies knows the rational, they only know the piece of paper written in front of them. They only know what they are given to say. It might be a good idea if those of you on that side of the aisle who are Sponsoring Bills have an understanding of the Bill that 166  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 you're talking about. Maybe you could explain to some of us why you're for these Bills, maybe you will convince us. But until you tell us why it's a good idea that the Governor take away from the right of the people of the State of Illinois the right to elect the University of Illinois Trustees, University of Illinois being one of the fine universities in the country with elected trustees, why anyone would want to change that is beyond me and there's been no explanation at all as to why anyone would want to do that since the explanation is not forth coming, I think we should vote 'no'."

"The Gentleman from Washington, Representative Deering. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Kubik."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentleman of the House. I rise in support of House Bill 444. I had a similar Bill a couple of years ago and frankly, there is a very good rational why we ought to do this. First of all, if there's anybody in this chamber who really believe that the Illinois, the University of Illinois trustees that anybody knows who these people are, you've got to be joking. And the fact of the matter is, why is it, if that is the case, why is it that we select when we do redistricting plans, why is it that we select U of I trustees. Because they are the most politically neutral offices on the ballot. Nobody knows who they are, it's just a measure of voting strength. So, to say that the reason that we're going to select these people is because people know who they are, is preposterous. And the fact of the matter is, that these people run statewide and I feel sorry for them. How are they able to get out their credentials to the public, it's almost impossible. With an elected board...with an elected board you can't make a good 167  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 determination on their credentials. The fact of the matter is, that the Governor whether he be a Republican or a Democrat is better able to look at an individual, make a judgement as to their abilities and background and reach some consideration and appoint them to the board. This makes eminently good sense that we should bring some common sense to an appointment process. I urge your support of House Bill 444."

"Representative Deering, for just a small comment."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question of the Sponsor with regards to the previous testimony. It was stated that since the U of I trustees are elected as...as a least political candidate on the ballot and he mentioned reapportionment. Can you tell me, Representative Wirsing what's going to be the base for drawing reapportionment maps in the next redistricting?"

"Your district. Representative Wirsing."

"I really am glad you asked that question. That's one heck of a way to run our state...our University in the State of Illinois based on how we all redistrict our districts for representation here in the state. I'm not sure that's the intent of a higher education learning center such as the University of Illinois. If it comes down to the bottom line and that's the only reason we have elected trustees, then boy we better go appointed."

"Representative Wirsing to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think there's a couple of points I want to make in closing and I think the fact that the University of Illinois Trustees Board is the only board of all universities that...that is elected, that still is elected. As we've talked to those, as I said earlier, as 168  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 we've talked to those people who have ran for this office for the trusteeship in the past, those who have served on the trustee board in the past and they are all saying the accountability factor for the University of Illinois Trustees would be much better in the appointed realm. That the elected realm just does not work, has not worked for good honest accountable representation by the University of Illinois Trustees. Under the appointee system, even if the Governor should happen to make a bad appointee..."

"Could the Gentleman have your attention, please. The Gentleman have your attention. Thank you, very much."

"Even if there is a bad appointee made, there isn't accountability factor very immediately because the Governor has made that appointee. So, if behooves the Governor to make the best appointees that he can and I think once again we've track record on existing boards across the State of Illinois in higher education that have been appointed, such as Southern Illinois University. And I think we need to recognize that. I'm sorry if I didn't answer somebody's question very well, but don't believe that I'm reading and I'm not sincere about this Bill because I am, and I do understand the impact that it has and I think that we really need to recognize that it does have an impact for our total state system of universities and this is the opportunity to continue to move towards a better system of universities here in Illinois...here in Illinois. I urge your 'yes' vote for this Bill."

"You have heard the Gentleman's Motion. The question is, 'Shall House Bill 444 pass?' All those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; opposed by voting 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted 169  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take the record. On this question there are 66 'aye', 47 'nay', and none voting 'present', this issue having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. House Bill 544. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 544, a Bill for an Act that amends the Environmental Protection Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Persico."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. House Bill 544 amends the Environmental Protection Act to include license hygienists as environmental professional who can conduct one or more aspects of an environmental audit. This Bill will treat licensed... I mean, license industrial hygienists doing an environmental audits the same as license engineer in so far as the bonding requirement. Since license industrial hygienists are licensed by the EPA and they are subject to the same requirements and discipline of the EPA, the bond requirement is superfluous. There's no known opposition to this Bill, it passed out of committee 24 to nothing and I urge your 'aye' vote."

"This issue is on short debate, Representative Granberg, the Gentleman from Clinton."

"Thank you. Will the Gentleman yield, Mr. Speaker?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Persico, what is the reasoning for the legislation. I know of no opposition either, but why do we attempt to expand this with the definition?"

"Representative Persico."

"Basically what this does is clarify language that puts 170  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 industrial hygienists on parity with other license engineer that can conduct environmental audits. Last year they were regulated by the state and the EPA and are held to the same standards as other environmental professionals. And they feel that this bonding requirement is no longer needed."

"Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Representative. So, this came about at the initiation of the departments or this group?"

"Representative Persico."

"This came about by a suggestion by the social engineers associates."

"Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Representative Persico. Again we on this side of the aisle know of no opposition and I would urge an 'aye' vote."

"Representative Novak, this is on short debate but we'll allow one question. Representative Novak."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to join my colleagues in supporting this legislation. This is one thing that we can agree on today, right Vince? Okay. But, this is a simple Bill, it allows industrial hygienists to enter the field of environmental audits. It was a Bill that I sponsored last year and I would ask everyone to support it."

"Representative Persico to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Again, I said there's no opposition to this Bill it's just a Bill to clarify and put on parity with other environmental engineers and I urge your 'aye' vote."

"You heard the Gentleman's Motion. The question is, 'Shall House Bill 544 pass?' All those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; opposed by voting 'nay'. The 171  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take the record. Oh this question there are 112 'ayes', none voting 'no', none voting 'present' and this issue having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. Supplemental Calendar #1. House Bill, Second Reading. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 202."

"House Bill 202, a Bill for an Act concerning liability for damages. Second Reading of this House Bill. Amendment #1 was adopted in committee."

"Fiscal note been filed?"

"There is a Motion to table Amendment...to table Committee Amendment #1."

"Have the notes been filed, Mr. Clerk?"

"Notes have been filed."

"On the Motion to table, the Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, for responding. I do have a Motion to table Amendment #1, I would like to proceed with that if it is your intent to try and move this Bill to Third Reading this evening."

"Proceed, Sir."

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, we know that this is a very serious issue regarding tort liability and that issue will come to pass on this floor and the floor of the Senate. This Amendment was adopted in the Senate Executive Committee. We feel that it's necessary to try to attempt to table this Amendment today, let this issue come to the floor without any Amendments at all. Let there be an opportunity for all Members of this House and this chamber to file Amendment as they wish. To have this debate open to all the public, to all the people of this state. The 172  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 provisions in the Amendments cause a great deal of harm and will cause a great deal of harm to the people of Illinois. To those who are injured by drunken drivers. To those who have been...who have suffered as result of the gross negligences of doctors and others throughout this state. Let's have a fair hearing, let's have a fair form to hear all of the arguments and I would move to table Amendment #1."

"On that Motion the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, of course, concur with Representative Granberg. There is no question that this is an important issue that is in front of the General Assembly, we've certainly be talking about it for a very long time, over a number of years. But, it seem that this particular year, after all these years of this Bill being heard in the Judiciary I or the Civil Law Committee, this year we heard testimony from some in that committee but then the action switched to a different committee. And I fear that the people of the State of Illinois really didn't understand or know the procedures where these Bills were being heard and I don't think they have had a full hearing yet on these issues this year. I think there were full hearings in prior years but I don't think we've had full hearings with full notice to the public this year. So, in deference to the public, the citizens of the State of Illinois, potential victims, potential consumers, it seems to me that we ought to move this ahead to table this and let's bring it to the light of day. And, Mr. Speaker, we would request a roll call on this, I'm joined by five or more Members on our side of the aisle. Thank you."

"You've heard the Gentleman's Motion. All those 173  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 in favor signify by voting 'aye', opposed by voting 'no'. This is a Motion to table. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Clerk will take the record. On this issue there are 63 voting 'no', 48 'yes', and the Motion is defeated. Third Reading. Resolutions."

"Senate Joint Resolution #22, offered by Representative Churchill. Resolved by the Senate of the Eighty-Ninth General Assembly of the State of Illinois, the House of Representatives curring herein, that when the two Houses adjourn on Friday, February 10, 1995, the Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, February 14, 1995 in Perfunctory Session. And when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Friday 17, 1995 in Perfunctory Session. And it stands on that day it stands adjourned until Tuesday, February 21, 1995 Perfunctory Session and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Friday 24, 1995 in Perfunctory Session and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Wednesday, March 1, 1995 at 11:30 o'clock a.m. And the House of Representative stands adjourned until Tuesday, February 14, 1995, and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Wednesday, February 15, and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Thursday, February 16, and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Friday, February 17, and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Tuesday, February 21, and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Wednesday, February 22, and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Thursday, February 23, and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until Friday, February 24, and when it adjourns on that day it stands adjourned until 174  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day Wednesday, March 1, at 11:30 a.m."

February 10, 1995 "Representative Churchill now moves the adoption of the Adjournment Resolution. All those in favor signify by saying 'aye'; those opposed 'nay'. '. In the opinion of the Chair the 'ayes' have it. Representative Churchill for an announcement."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Just to remind the Members of the Rules Committee, we'll have a very very brief meeting immediately upon adjournment."

"Representative Churchill now moves the House stand adjourned until Tuesday, February 14, 1995 at the hour of 11:00 a.m. All those in favor signify by saying 'aye'; opposed, 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it and the House now stands adjourned until Tuesday, February 14, 1995 at the hour of 11:00 a.m., allowing time for Perfunctory Session. The House is now adjourned."

Introduction "The Perfunctory Session will now be in order. First Reading of Senate Bills. Senate Bill 25, offered by Representative Granberg, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. Senate Bill 26, offered by Representative Parke, a Bill for an Act to amend the Humane Care for Animals Act. Senate Bill 28, offered by Representative Lang, a Bill for an Act in relation to liability for injury or loss incurred by persons performing public or community service. Senate Bill 66, offered by Representative Brady, a Bill for an Act in relation to governmental matters. Representative Mulligan, Senate Bill 75, offered by a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Municipal Code. Senate Bill 95, offered by Representative Deering, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Pension Code and State Mandates Act. Senate Bill 175  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day 241, February 10, 1995 offered by Representative Weaver, a Bill for an Act relating to education. First Reading of these Senate Bills." Introduction First Reading of House Bills. House Bill 1204, offered by Representative Salvi, a Bill for an Act to amend the Election Code. House Bill 1205, by Representative Salvi, a Bill for an Act to amend the offered Election Code. House Bill 1206, offered by Representative Salvi, a Bill for an Act to amend the Election Code. House Bill 1207, offered by Representative Wait, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Municipal Code. House Bill 1208, offered by Representative Salvi, a Bill for an Act to amend the Election Code. House Bill 1209, offered by Representative Pedersen, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act. House Bill 1210, offered by Representative Woolard, a Bill for an Act to amend the Election Code. House Bill 1211, offered by Representative Brunsvold, a Bill for an Act to amend the Workers' Compensation Act. House Bill 1212, offered by Representative Lachner, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Income Tax Act. House Bill 1213, offered by Representative Brady, a Bill for an Act in relation to public employee pensions. House Bill 1214, offered by Representative Hughes, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Plumbing License Law. House Bill 1215, offered by Representative Noland, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Farm Development Act. House Bill 1216, offered by Representative Hassert, a Bill for an Act to amend the Counties Code. House Bill 1217, offered by Representative Stephens, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Vehicle Code. House Bill 1218, offered by Representative Stephens, a Bill for an Act to amend the Riverboat Gambling Act. 176  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 House Bill 1219, offered by Representative Stephens, a Bill for an Act to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act. House Bill 1220, offered by Representative Stroger, a Bill for an Act to amend the Cook County Forest Preserve District Act. House Bill 1221, offered by Representative Salvi, a Bill for an Act to amend the Adoption Act. House Bill 1222, offered by Representative Lindner, a Bill for an Act to amend the Code of Civil Procedures. House Bill 1223, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. House Bill 1224, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. House Bill 1225, offered by Representative Roskam, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Public Aid Code. House Bill 1226, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. House Bill 1227, offered by Representative Roskam, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Public Aid Code. House Bill 1228, offered by Representative Hannig, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Vehicle Code. House Bill 1229, offered by Representative Roskam, a Bill for an Act to amend the Public Utilities Act. House Bill 1230, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the Park District Code. House Bill 1231, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the Park District Code. House Bill 1232, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the Juvenile Court Act. House Bill 1233, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the Downstate Forest Preserve District Act. House Bill 1234, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the Downstate Forest Preserve District Act. House Bill 1235, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for 177  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 an Act to amend the Downstate Forest Preserve District Act. House Bill 1236, offered by Representative Cowlishaw, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. House Bill 1237, offered by Representative Cross, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code. House Bill 1238, offered by Representative Zickus, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Vehicle Code. House Bill 1239, offered by Representative Biggert, a Bill for an Act to amend the Property Tax Code. House Bill 1240, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Airport Authorities Act. House Bill 1241, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Probate Act. House Bill 1242, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act concerning adoption. House Bill 1243, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act and to amend the Illinois Pension Code. House Bill 1244, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Downstate Forest Preserve District Act. House Bill 1245, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Child Care Act. House Bill 1246, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code. House Bill 1247, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Airport Authorities Act. House Bill 1248, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Code of Criminal Procedure. House Bill 1249, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code. House Bill 1250, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Public Aid Code. House Bill 1251, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act to amend the Property Tax Code. House Bill 1252, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a 178  15th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE February 10, 1995 Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Controlled Substances Act. House Bill 1253, offered by Representative Leitch, a Bill for an Act to amend the Counties Code. House Bill 1254, offered by Representative Maureen Murphy, a Bill for an Act to amend the Tobacco Products Tax Act. House Bill 1255, offered by Representative Tom Johnson, a Bill for an Act in relation to notification of the release of felons from custody. House Bill 1256, offered by Representative Leitch, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code. House Bill 1257, offered by Representative Durkin, a Bill for an Act to create the Law Enforcement and Prevention Fund. House Bill 1258, offered by Representative Rutherford, a Bill for an Act to amend the Uniform Commercial Code. House Bill 1259, offered by Representative Skinner, a Bill for an Act concerning modular dwellings and mobile structures. House Bill 1260, offered by Representative Skinner, A Bill for an Act in relation to manufactured housing. House Bill 1261, offered by Representative Martinez, a Bill for an Act to amend the Juvenile Court Act. House Bill 1262, offered by Representative Deuchler, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Banking Act. House Bill 1263, offered by Representative Krause, a Bill for an Act to amend the Health Maintenance Organization Act. House se Bill 1264, offered by Representative Martinez, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code. House Bill 1265, offered by Representative Jim Meyer, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Lottery Law. House Bill 1266, offered by Representative Ronen, a Bill for an Act to amend the Controlled Substance and Cannabis Nuisance Act. House Bill 1267, offered by Representative Tenhouse, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. House Bill 1268, offered by Representative Mautino, a Bill for an Act to amend the 179  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 15th Legislative Day February 10, 1995 Criminal Code. House Bill 1269, offered by Representative Mulligan, a Bill for an Act to amend the School Code. House Bill 1270, offered by Representative Mulligan, a Bill for an Act in relation to gambling. House Bill 1271, offered by Representative Mulligan, a Bill for an Act regarding children. House Bill 1272, offered by Representative Boland, a Bill for an Act to amend the State Colleges and Universities Gasohol Use Act. House Bill 1273, offered by Representative Lopez, a Bill for an Act to create the Not-For-Profit Agency Financial Disclosure Act. House Bill 1274, offered by Representative Zickus, a Bill for an Act to create the Parturient Consumer Protection Act. House Bill 1275, offered by Representative Parke, a Bill for an Act to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act. House Bill 1276, offered by Representative McGuire, a Bill for an Act concerning the fixing of compensation of officers of local government. First Reading of these House Bills."

"Being no further business the House Perfunctory Session stands adjourned and the House will reconvene Tuesday, February 14, at the hour of 11:00 a.m." on 180  REPORT: TIFLDAY PAGE: 001 STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DAILY TRANSCRIPTION OF DEBATE INDEX FEBRUARY 10, 1995 96/04/29 16:03:56 HB-0082 THIRD READING PAGE 10 HB-0082 POSTPONED CONSIDERATION PAGE 30 HB-0115 SECOND READING PAGE 5 HB-0119 SECOND READING PAGE 5 HB-0166 THIRD READING PAGE 43 HB-0200 CONCURRENCE PAGE 31 HB-0202 SECOND READING PAGE 172 HB-0202 MOTION PAGE 172 HB-0209 THIRD READING PAGE 46 HB-0211 SECOND READING PAGE 5 HB-0231 THIRD READING PAGE 122 HB-0270 SECOND READING PAGE 5 HB-0355 SECOND READING PAGE 5 HB-0355 MOTION PAGE 8 HB-0442 THIRD READING PAGE 125 HB-0444 THIRD READING PAGE 161 HB-0481 SECOND READING PAGE 9 HB-0538 SECOND READING PAGE 8 HB-0544 THIRD READING PAGE 170 HB-0564 SECOND READING PAGE 8 HB-0660 SECOND READING PAGE 9 HB-1204 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1205 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1206 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1207 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1208 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1209 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1210 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1211 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1212 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1213 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1214 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1215 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1216 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1217 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1218 FIRST READING PAGE 176 HB-1219 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1220 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1221 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1222 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1223 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1224 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1225 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1226 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1227 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1228 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1229 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1230 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1231 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1232 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1233 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1234 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1235 FIRST READING PAGE 177 HB-1236 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1237 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1238 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1239 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1240 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1241 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1242 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1243 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1244 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1245 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1246 FIRST READING PAGE 178  REPORT: TIFLDAY PAGE: 002 STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DAILY TRANSCRIPTION OF DEBATE INDEX FEBRUARY 10, 1995 96/04/29 16:03:56 HB-1247 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1248 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1249 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1250 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1251 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1252 FIRST READING PAGE 178 HB-1253 FIRST READING HB-1254 FIRST READING PAGE 179 PAGE 179 HB-1255 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1256 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1257 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1258 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1259 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1260 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1261 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1262 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1263 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1264 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1265 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1266 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1267 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1268 FIRST READING PAGE 179 HB-1269 FIRST READING PAGE 180 HB-1270 FIRST READING PAGE 180 HB-1271 FIRST READING PAGE 180 HB-1272 FIRST READING PAGE 180 HB-1273 FIRST READING PAGE 180 HB-1274 FIRST READING PAGE 180 HB-1275 FIRST READING PAGE 180 HB-1276 FIRST READING PAGE 180 SB-0010 FIRST READING PAGE 161 SB-0025 FIRST READING PAGE 175 SB-0026 FIRST READING PAGE 175 SB-0028 FIRST REALING PAGE 175 SB-0066 FIRST READING PAGE 175 SB-0075 FIRST READING PAGE 175 SB-0095 FIRST READING PAGE 175 SB-0241 FIRST READING PAGE 176 SJR-0022 ADOPTED PAGE 175 SJR-0022 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE 174 SUBJECT MATTER HOUSE TO ORDER SPEAKER TIM JOHNSON PAGE 1 PRAYER REVEREND LEE CRAWFORD PAGE 1 PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE PAGE 1 ROLL CALL FOR ATTENDANCE PAGE 1 COMMITTEE REPORT PAGE 2 MESSAGES FROM SENATE PAGE 2 SPEAKER DANIELS IN CHAIR PAGE 30 COMMITTEE REPORT PAGE 31 ADJOURNMENT PAGE 175 PERFUNCTORY SESSION TO ORDER PAGE 175 PERFUNCTORY SESSION ADJOURNED PAGE 180