Illinois House Floor Debate — March 23, 1995

March 23, 1995 "Good Morning, Springfield. The House will be in order. The Members will be in their chairs. Representative Churchill in the Chair. The Chaplain for the day is the Randy Dempsey of the First Baptist Church of Channahon, Illinois. Reverend Dempsey is the guest of Representative Steve Spangler. Will the guests gallery please rise to join us in the invocation? Reverend Dempsey."

"Let's bow together in prayer. Heavenly Father, we do thank You for this day for it's a day that You have made. We thank You for the opportunities that lie in this day. We ask that You would give us wisdom. We ask that You would give us guidance. We ask that You would give us the sense of servant hood. We know that there is no authority in government positions that has not been authorized from You. So, we ask that we would remember that as we make decisions that effect the lives of the states in this country. We pray today that this would be a day that would bring glory to You and will bring about a state, a community that would peaceable and it would be peacemaking in the land. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen."

"We will be led in the Pledge today by the early bird of the House, Representative Tom Cross."

Cross et al: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

"Roll Call for attendance. Representative Hannig is recognized for the excused absences of the Democratic side. Representative Hannig."

"Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. On our side of the aisle, 1  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day Shirley Jones and Ben Martinez are excused, and we're all ready for work."

"Thank you. Representative Cross is recognized on the Republican side for excused absences."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm happy to report, on the Republican side, there's absolutely no one, on one absence today. Thank you."

"Thank you. The excused absences will be journalized. Mr. Clerk, take the record. There are 115 Members answering the Roll Call and a quorum is present. The House will come to order. Senate Bills - First Reading."

"Introduction and First Reading of Senate Bills. Senate Bill #5, offered by Representative Cross, a Bill for an Act that amends the Juvenile Court Act of 1987. Senate Bill #34, offered by Representative Persico, a Bill for an Act that amends the Election Code. Senate Bill #86, offered by Representative Roskam, a Bill for an Act concerning adoption. Senate Bill #111, offered by Representative Lawfer, a Bill for an Act that amends the Criminal Code of 1961. Senate Bill #112, offered by Representative Black, a Bill for an Act that amends the Counties Code. Senate Bill #162, offered by Representative Clayton, a Bill for an Act that amends the Gasoline Storage Act. Senate Bill #167, offered by Representative Leitch, a Bill for an Act that amends the Illinois Public Aid Code. Introduction and First Reading of Senate Bills."

"House Bills - Third Reading. House Bill 23. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill #23, a Bill for an Act that amends the Illinois Public Aid Code. Third Reading of this Senate Bill...House Bill." 2  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

March 23, 1995 "The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Madison, Representative Stephens."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and good morning."

"Good morning."

"Senate Bill... House Bill 23 amends the Public Aid Code. It permits the Department of Public Aid to operate a demonstration project under which aid to families with dependent children clients are required to report their earnings on a quarterly basis. It also provides that public aid recipients who are exempt from the employment program and who become participants in the program may be sanctioned if they fail to meet the requirements without good cause. The present law provides only that the non-exempt recipients may be sanctioned. It also provides that with respect to the education, training, and employment program for the AFDC recipients, a program participant's assessment process, now the initial assessment, shall include standard literacy testing and a determination of English language proficiency, except where the client is enrolled in...enrolled or accepted for enrollment in a post-secondary program, and provides that certain AFDCU recipients may, and currently, which is now...is are...referred to work experience. It also makes other changes concerning participation in education, training, and employment programs. This language was originally in House Bill 2471. It's an agency Bill for the Department of Public Aid. It also creates the violation of unauthorized use of a medical assistance card, makes a violation of the Public Aid Code...makes it a violation of the Code to use, alter, transfer or otherwise abuse the card against public aid statutes. The...it makes it a violation of the Public Aid Code to knowingly obtain 3  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day unauthorized medical benefits with or without a medical card. Penalties are outlined in the Public Aid Code and are based on the amount of financial worth involved in the violation. The penalties range from a Class A misdemeanor to Class I felony. I would be glad to respond to any questions, look forward to that and I would move its passage."

"Is there any discussion? The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Schakowsky."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will. Please, proceed."

"Representative Stephens, is this more fast track welfare reform, is this considered to be on the fast track?"

"Representative Stephens."

"This would be under the order of morning track."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Morning track. This was a shell Bill and the Amendment, this is the Amendment that becomes the Bill. The reason that I asked if it's fast track is because it seems to me that this is another piece of legislation that did not have the kind of input and as I understand it, it also will use emergency rule making. Could you explain to me why this legislation would need emergency rule making to be implemented?"

"Representative Stephens."

"As before with public aid reform, measurers led by this side of the aisle, this Bill will require at least one waiver that I'm aware of and thus we want to move the process quickly."

"Representative Schakowsky." 4  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

March 23, 1995 "I wanted to go through some of the Sections of this Bill so that at least those of us who were able to get here this morning might be able to have a better understanding of it even thought I fear that most Illinois citizens won't have a clue until they're hit between the eyes. Let me ask you about this...I think fairly odd more government provision which requires now...that clients report earnings on a quarterly basis to the department. Could you talk to me about that?"

"Representative Stephens."

"You want me to talk to you about it. Well, it's a very interesting concept. It moves them from a current regulation which you may favor, I'm not sure, to quarterly reporting. The current regulation is they report every 30 days and this would make them report less frequently and I...if you want to talk about it some more, I don't know what...how much further we could carry that discussion."

"Representative Schakowsky for more talk."

"Thank you. Clients who do not report earnings will be deemed uncooperative and benefits will be discontinued and recovery actions. Have you defined what uncooperative means? What is...what is uncooperative and at what point will benefits be discontinued for lack of cooperation?"

"Representative Stephens." Stephens: I "Oh, uncooperative could be described a lot of ways. I could relate it to the legislative process. Specifically, I'm not sure that the Bill describes 'uncooperative'. believe that it's a term that's in the dictionary and maybe it might require a...a rule be developed to define the word 'uncooperative', but I think the word 'uncooperative' is relatively straightforward. It means that you don't cooperate, and if they don't cooperate and we're providing 5  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 them with benefits, we think they should be sanctioned. I think that's pretty self explanatory. I would think 'uncooperative' could be one who does not want to go along with the program, one who does not want to participate, one who does not want to follow guidelines that they know the program has."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill."

"To the Bill."

"It seems to me that this is another piece of legislation that is going to have very questionable results in actually so-called reforming the welfare system. Seems to me that the emergency rule making process and the whole way that the Bill has been discussed, or rather not discussed, is going to move us too quickly to some unwise legislation. I would urge a 'no' vote on this Bill and would request right now, should the Bill receive the requisite number, that we have a verification of that Roll Call."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will. Please, proceed."

"Thank you. Representative Stephens, does this measure deal with the $5 million in overpayments to the Healthy Mom-Healthy Kids program?"

"Representative Stephens. Representative Stephens could not hear you, Representative Granberg. Could you please repeat your question?"

"Thank you. Representative Stephens, does this measure deal with the $5 million...$5 million in overpayments in the Healthy Mom-Healthy Kids programs made by the 6  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day administration?"

"Representative Stephens." March 23, 1995

"No. And as you know we work...the Governor and the State of Illinois are contesting that that charge that we owe $5 million to the federal government. We don't believe that we do and this Bill does not address that issue."

"Representative Granberg."

"Does your Bill address the $2 billion worth of unpaid bills in the medicaid line item with the Department of Public Aid?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Are you saying you haven't read the Bill."

"Representative Granberg."

"Well, Representative Stephens, I don't know. your explanation. I did not hear you address that I heard comment SO I assume that you think whatever measures are in your Bill are more important than resolving the $2 billion in bills, unpaid bills that we currently have in the State of Illinois. And this is a priority to paying our hospitals, our pharmacies which I'm sure you're aware of and our nursing homes. And I did not know if you attempted address that issue in your Bill." to

"Is that a question, Representative Granberg?"

"Yes, it is, Mr. Speaker. I did not know if that measure is addressed in Representative Stephens' not."

Bill or Speaker Churchill: "So, you're asking if it is addressed in the Bill. Is that the question? Representative Stephens."

"That was the first question, Mr. Speaker."

"Representative Stephens."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Representative Granberg, this is not an appropriation Bill, but indirectly of course 7  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 because this is going to be...to lead, we hope to more education and training, shifting people off of the welfare rolls on to payrolls that indeed will in the long term help improve the state's cash flow problem caused by an ever increasing load of public aid recipients, an ever increasing cost of providing the broad spectrum of benefits that they receive. And so, I would answer your question in an indirect way. This will help solve the crisis that has been caused by the burgeoning roles, the burgeoning budget of the Department of Public Aid."

"Representative Granberg."

"Representative Stephens, thank you for answering those questions. We, on this side of the aisle, were just wondering because we have yet to see anyone address the unpaid medical bills in the State of Illinois, the $2 billion, the eight month budget to pay our nursing homes, the nine month budget this current year for the payment of hospitals, the $5 million in overpayment for the Healthy Moms - Healthy Kids program. All of these issues that we are...that we would like to deal with on this side of the aisle but the new majority has not dealt with, the administration is not dealing with, so thank you, Sir. I appreciate the frankness."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Krause."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will. Please, proceed."

"Representative Stephens, I could not hear you before because of the noise on the Floor. So, if I ask questions you've already stated, please excuse that. But, your proposal...the position of the Department of Public Aid is supportive?"

"Representative Stephens." 8  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Yes."

"Representative Krause." March 23, 1995

"I have not read the Bill. It went through your Committee Executive. But reading this synopsis, it permits the department to operate a demonstration project. Is that correct? And therefore, if they wish too, it will be within their discretion?"

"Representative Stephens."

"That's my understanding, yes."

"Representative Krause."

"Alright. It also then provides that public aid recipients who are now exempt from employment programs and then become participants in the program may be sanctioned, so it's again discretionary according to this?"

"Representative Stephens."

"They choose to participate in the program and then failed to participate in the program. They may be sanctioned, yes."

"Representative Krause."

"I know, but Representative, the synopsis says, 'may be sanctioned' not 'shall'. But...okay. So, it could be discretionary and then further, that certain AFDU, ADCU recipients may be referred to work experience and it says, now the law reads 'are referred'. The synopsis says that certain AFDCU recipients may be referred to work experience and now it reads 'are referred'. Why the changes? Was this the departments wish to be broader, more discretionary? I sincerely do not see the goal of... If they support it, I will support it, but so much of this is may or a great deal of permission then within the department. Is that basically it?"

"Representative Stephens." 9  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Well, to get to your original point, this is the department's Bill. They support it, they want to change the word to 'are' because they believe that that's going to give more teeth to the legislation. They want...they want, we're sending a strong message. We want people to participate."

"Representative Krause."

"Further discussion? The Lady from Cook, Representative Currie."

"Thank you, Speaker and Members of the House. There are some good things in this Bill but there are two provisions that I think suggest that perhaps we would want to either vote 'present' or 'no'. One is the sanction, if under the quarterly reporting program, a recipient fails to identify earned income. Those individuals would be bounced from the roles and the problem here is that even if the failure to report income is income that would not disqualify them from public aid, even if they still would be eligible under an earned income disregard, this would mean the likelihood that these individuals would lose their jobs in order to requalify for welfare or find themselves not able to keep the family together. This seems to me to be a fairly substantial sanction, one that is not required under current law. Those people who do not report income are then denied earned income, disregards, that seems to me to be a fair and more reasonable way to go. Secondly...secondly, the Bill deals, I think quite harshly, with people who are not required to participate in the jobs program but choose to do so. If those individuals under this proposal, if those individuals don't turn up for the school program for a few days or don't for whatever reason, child care problems, transportation problems, if they don't 10  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 participate in the program they've chosen, they go to the bottom of the list. Now, under...under current rules while they will be bounced from that kind of program, they will be sanctioned, it doesn't mean that they're not going to have the opportunity ever again to participate in the jobs program. It seems to me that we ought to want to encourage public aid recipients to participate voluntarily in the jobs program. These are volunteers, but the sanction that's required under House Bill 23, will discourage, will provide a negative incentive from volunteering for the jobs program and should they for whatever reason fail to meet the requirements of their jobs choice, they'll essentially be bounced, put at the bottom of the list and instead of encouraging more people to become more economically independent, we will have encouraged more people to stay on the welfare roles for a longer time. For those two reasons, I think the right vote on this Bill is a 'no' vote."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Vermilion, Representative Black."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Thank you. Representative Stephens, there's a very important part of the legislation embodied in the Amendment that I don't believe, if we've talked about it, I haven't heard it and excuse me if I'm being repetitive. I'm very interested in the section on the unauthorized use of medical assistants. What would the penalties be for a person who knowingly uses or acquires a medical card in a manner not authorized by law or rule?"

"Representative Stephens." 11  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Well, Representative, March 23, 1995 it would be based on the value of the benefit of their fraud...fraudulent use of the card. The...I can read you the classifications. It's already in statute. It just refers to those sanctions found in...Section 588-6, classification of violations and the bottom line is, the amount of those sanctions should equal or approximate the value of the fraud or the money stolen, you could say, from the state."

"Representative Black."

"And this could be...we could be talking about a substantial amount of money in medicaid fraud, couldn't we?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Yes, it could. If there's...if there are tens of thousands or tens of millions of dollars worth of medicaid fraud and we can recapture those tens of millions of dollars, that could go a long way towards certainly straightening out the system and could have major positive budgetary benefit."

"Representative Black."

"Thank you very much, Representative, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. To the Bill. You know, the Tribune, the Chicago Tribune did a very insightful series about a year ago on medicaid fraud in Illinois. I noticed in yesterday's Chicago Tribune, page 4 of Section 1, there is about a four column article on medical fraud. Listen to some of these figures, $30 to $100 billion in medical fraud is occurring in this country. The FBI currently has 1,500 cases of medical fraud pending or under investigation. They estimate that medicaid and medicare fraud alone may total more than $20 billion a year. So, to my colleagues on the other side who have this record that the needle 12  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 keeps sticking on the old refrain about money for this and money for that and solve these problems and we want to address it. Of course, you didn't address any of it when you were in charge of both chambers for 12 years. But, now I'll tell you what we're going to do. We're going to give you a chance with this kind of legislation to stop the unauthorized use of medical assistance, a $20 billion fraud in medicaid alone, $30 to $100 billion fraud, not my figures, in the Chicago Tribune via of the federal government, that's President Clinton's administration. You start talking about that kind of money, you better vote for the Bill. If you really want money to pay off this and to pay off that, then it's time you put your vote where your rhetoric is. I've had it up to my eyeballs with medicaid fraud. I've had it up to my ears on the repeated refrain about how you are going to solve all these problems. I'll tell you what, we're going to welcome you to support this Bill. If you don't like part of the Bill, if you don't like some of the sections of the Bill, that's fine. No Bill is ever perfect, we all know that. But I intend to support the Bill simply because of Section 882-5, unauthorized use of medical assistance. It's high time we stop, as the Chicago Tribune clearly demonstrated, the fraud that is going on in the State of Illinois alone and now the Clinton administration pointing out that we could be looking at upwards of $100 billion a year in health care fraud. It's time to tighten up the system and that then will give us the money to do some of things we've heard so much rhetoric about in the last two weeks. So..."

"Representative Black, please bring your remarks to close."

"So, it's relatively simple. If you want to reform a 13  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 current system that you have said repeatedly, doesn't work, and if you want to start tufting upon medicaid fraud that hurts each and everyone of our constituents as well as ourselves, then you vote 'yes' for this Bill. If you would rather just have rhetoric about, well, we're going to look at it, we're going to study it and we're going to do this or that, then vote 'no'. That's simple. I intend support the Bill." to

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Hartke."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Yes, he will. Please, proceed."

"Representative Stephens, I listened intently to Representative Black's remarks, talking about $20 billion to $100 billion worth of fraud and it occurred to me, where is most of this fraud being perpetrated? Is that done by the medicaid recipients or by the doctors and hospitals and the nursing homes?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative Hartke, I don't have the answer to your question, but I can tell you that wherever it is, we want to find it and we want our money back. Whether it's a recipient or whether it's a provider, we have examples of both. Representative Black referred to some articles that appeared in Chicago Tribune last year and just recently and whether it's a medical provider or whether it's a recipient, we...we intend before this Session is over to make sure that we have all the laws available to us to make sure that we can seek out and punish and recover the financial value of the benefits received from that fraud. And so whether it's a doctor, a hospital or a recipient, we 14  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day don't care."

"Representative Hartke."

"Well, Representative Stephens, I think I know where you're trying to go, but when I listen to Representative Black, and if their paper picks that up, they say, 'Oh, my God, we ought to be stopping this $20 billion worth of fraud'. The picture of that is conjured up in many people's mind is that public aid recipients are walking into hospitals, doctors, and nursing homes and just getting paid cash for all this service that they're being provided fraudulently. Now, I might submit to you that I agree there probably is fraud and we ought to go after fraud because we all want to do that. Does this Bill, House Bill 23, have any section in it that goes after the provider fraud, because I feel in my heart and I think that you probably do too, that that's where the majority of the big dollars are. When you talk about the FBI going after a 1,050 cases when we have millions of people that are on public aid, why in the world would the FBI go after one small recipient who maybe used someone else's green card to provide health care services for a sick baby or someone who is in truly need of an emergency care. I think your big dollars, your major operation and so forth, where the big dollars are, your pharmacies and so forth, maybe that's where the fraud is. Can you show me in this piece of legislation where we go after the provider fraud?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, I would have to go back to last year when we created the office... Well you're asking about provider fraud and we passed language last year and you're well aware of it and that's where the teeth in going after providers is. This closes a gap. There was nothing in the 15  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 statutes that actually said that if you borrow or steal someone else's medical card and take it in and receive benefits for it, that we could punish you. Now, with this we can close that loophole. Under last year's Bill, we have similar privileges and similar legislation for providers. Representative, it is this side of the aisle that's going to seek out, find, and punish and then recover all medicaid related fraud."

"Representative Hartke."

"Again, I'm going to repeat my question. Where in this legislation does it say that you're going to go after that? You know, it really is ironic that we should spend all this time and all this rhetoric talking about billions of dollars worth of fraud when we go after one public aid recipient or two that happens to steal, use, beg, borrow a green card to go after those that they maybe truly need the services for their baby or their sick child. You know, it's great to talk about this, but maybe we ought to go after the doctor or the provider that is fraudulently billing the Department of Public Aid, running them through like a factory through their system just to collect medicaid dollars. Maybe if the state paid those medicaid dollars on time, doctors wouldn't feel that..."

"Representative Hartke, is that question are where you just concluding your remarks?"

"Well, I guess I was rattling on, but I would hope that..."

"Would you bring your remarks to a conclusion, please?"

"But, I would hope that this piece of legislation would...put some teeth into the law to stop fraud and as I understand this legislation, there is nothing in it that 16  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 goes after the...the provider of health care that is perpetrating the fraud. I think those where the big dollars are and that's where we ought to concentrate; Go after the big bucks first, then go after the little guy."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Santiago."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen."

"Good morning to you."

"Would the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will. Please, proceed."

"Representative Stephens, your Bill on Section 88-2.05 on unauthorized use of medical assistance, what are we doing about the medical providers? Are they included in the legislation if they're found in violation of the law?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative Santiago, I will assume that your question is in good faith. It was just asked, it was just answered. Let me expand upon my answer. Last year, this Body and Governor's Leadership signed legislation creating the Office of Inspector General in the Department of Public Aid whose sole responsibility is to seek out, find and help recover losses from fraud by providers. Do you understand that?"

"Representative Santiago."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Representative Stephens, I'm sorry someone asked a question, but I didn't hear the question. I'm asking the question in good faith and I hope you answer them in good faith, also. But, I am very concerned with this part of the Bill. You know that we have discussed this in Executive Committee many times and we're all the time trying to go after the little person. 17  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 But, my concern is that the medical providers are the ones that are going to get away with the fraud and we have seen that already. And Section 8(a), I believe is already in the statute. So what we're doing with this, we are being redundant. Let me ask you another question. On the two year limitation for an individual to participate in the educational programs, what happens if that individual doesn't speak the language and cannot, after two years, cannot function properly? What happens to that person?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, first of all, the Bill streamlines that system so that those who are obliviously proficient are not...will not have to go through any program to show that. For those that are not, if you will just bear with me a moment, I will respond."

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, maybe I...staff is giving me an answer Would that...maybe I didn't hear your question correctly. you repeat the question? That way we'll all know what we're talking about over here. I'm sorry."

"Representative Santiago."

"Your Bill adds a two year limitation to an individual participating in the educational programs. My question is, if that person has a language problem, how are you going to deal with that individual, because naturally that persons not going to be able to function in a two year process?"

"Representative Stephens."

"They would stay in the program as long as they did some part-time work."

"Representative Santiago, you have 45 seconds left."

"So, they will...they will stay in the program, they 18  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 will not be taken out of the program, am I correct? Is that your intent?"

"Representative Stephens."

"As long as they meet the requirements and as I said, I think...I want to make sure you understand this, they have to participate in the jobs program and part-time work."

"Representative Santiago, you have 15 seconds left."

"Yes. Mr. Speaker, to conclude. Most of the language from this Bill..."

"Representative. Representative Santiago, just let me give you a little bit more time and then you can bring your remarks to conclusion. Proceed. Representative Santiago."

"We're falling asleep at the switch there."

"Wait until 11:00 tonight."

"To conclude. To conclude, basically we debated this Bill in the Executive Committee. I know the Bill is going to pass. I know the Gentleman is doing this in good faith. I still have some serious problems with the Bill. The part that we are focusing on this morning and we heard the issue of fraud doing that. The problem is not the AFDC program. The problem is medicaid and once again, we're trying to cover up the medicaid problem that this state has with all of these hodge podge language. So, basically I ask my colleagues on this side of the aisle to vote 'no' on this issue. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker."

"Further discussion? The Lady from Cook, Representative Flowers."

"Good morning, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House."

"Good morning." 19  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995

"Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will. Please, proceed."

"Representative Stephens, do pardon me. Good morning. But I may have missed some of your answers because again, I came in late. So, would you please explain to me what is the purpose of this legislation?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Representative Flowers, for the record, you were not late. I clearly was here at 8:00 a.m., I looked at the board and you were recorded as 'present'. You were not late. You might have been off the Floor for a moment, but you were not late. We want to recognize that."

"Even the Chair noticed your timely appearance today."

"There was not even a quorum call and... The purpose of the legislation is, I suppose to summarize it, is to help the Department of Public Aid operate more efficiently, more effectively, to clarify some of their procedural things that will...that are redundant like the English language proficiency change to shifting to the quarterly report of income instead of monthly. That's a benefit not only to the department but I believe to...not a benefit to the recipient, but less of a hassle for the recipient. And then finally, to deal with the issue to close the loophole, because as you know, last year we went after the provider fraud and now we're going after and closing the loophole on recipient fraud. I don't know why anyone would want us not to be able to recover and punish those who do not belong...are not on public aid, but use the public aid card. A person who has a bona fide card and the benefits that they're in and uses it property will not...they have nothing to lose and if it's true as they say that there is 20  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 no fraud among recipients, then there will be no one punished under this statute. However, if there is abuse and some of us think there may be, this Bill allows that abuse to be sought out and recovery made. And so that in Flowers: general is the purpose of the Bill."

"Representative Flowers." "Representative Stephens, what happens now? You mean to tell me that this legislation is not redundant legislation? Do you mean to tell me that right now as we speak there is no fraudulent legislation on the books to address this matter?"

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, after 12 years control of this chamber by your side of the House, the answer is 'no'. There's not."

"Representative Flowers."

"Excuse me, Representative Stephens. But I think before, you know, we've just had it for the last 12 years and prior to that it was your administration. But let's get back to the issue at hand here. You mean to tell me that right now, today, there is no legislation on the books to address the issue of fraud by recipients in the Department of Public Aid. And if that is true, I would like for you to explain to me under what law have people...in the past been prosecuted because of fraud, because they had more than one medical card, because they were collecting more than one check."

"Representative Stephens."

"Well, before, we could...our sanctions had to do with getting...if we could get them off the program as punishment. But as far as in the criminal court, a recent case was thrown out because the judge finally ruled that there was nothing that clearly in the statutes said that 21  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 unauthorized use of medical assistance and defined it and said that any person who knowingly uses, acquires, processes or transfers of medical card in any manner not authorized by the law or by the rules and regulations of the department or who knowingly alters a medical card or who knowingly uses, acquires, processes or transfers an altered medical card is guilty of a violation of this article shall be punished as provided in Section 8-6. That was not in the law. I'm sorry that it wasn't there. I wish you would have put it there years ago, but you didn't. And now we're putting it there, last year we added the Office of Inspector General. We didn't have that before, that's a correction. We are making improvements in the law. That's what fast track was all about. There are changes that are long overdue. I mean, if your argument is because it wasn't there before, we shouldn't put it there now. Or if we were remiss in our duties before I share the guilt with you; however, there was an interim of two years when I wasn't here to help you and I'm sorry that...I might have done it during that two year period, but I just don't know. But today we're going to do it."

"Representative Flowers, you have 50 seconds Flowers: left." "One last question, Representative Stephens. You mean to tell me the director of public aid, by administrative rules does not have this in place. And just answer 'yes' or 'no', because you talk too much."

"Representative Flowers, one of your questions took a minute 20 seconds, so Representative Stephens for a short answer."

"Did you wish to comment on the last comment? I will tell you 'no', the director did not have this language on 22  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day which to rely, just didn't have it. And more March 23, 1995 importantly, the court didn't have it and that's what we need. And as to your final remark, I know it."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Tazewell, Representative Ackerman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"There is a Motion for the previous question. All in favor signify by saying 'aye'; any opposed will say 'no'. In the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes' have it and the previous question is moved. Representative Stephens to close."

"Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll try to keep this brief because of Representative Flowers' last remark. I will you that this Bill is significant. When we came into power this year we said that there were many things that we wanted to accomplish. This helps finish...or another step towards the Republican Party's commitment to welfare reform. This is a solid piece of legislation, it sends a strong message. Provider or recipient fraud is the same, it will be treated the same, it will be sought out and we will seek and gain recovery. A system will be better off for it, and credibility of the department and all those involved as providers, recipients or administrators of programs will be better off in the end and the real winner will be the taxpayer of the State of Illinois and with that, I move passage of House Bill 23."

"In Representative Schakowsky's questioning, she had requested a verification should this receive the appropriate number of votes. I assume, Representative Lang, that's what you're arising to remind me about. The question is, 'Shall House Bill 23 pass?' All those in 23  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 favor vote 'aye'; all those opposed vote 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, there are 92 voting 'aye', 20 voting 'no', and 4 voting 'present'. Representative Schakowsky, do you persist? Representative Schakowsky says 'no' and removes the request for a verification. This Bill, having received the a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. For what reason does Representative from Cook, Representative Lang rise?"

"Thank you. Well, actually two points. First of all my light was on for a very long time and was completely ignored. But more to the point, this side of the aisle clearly made a request for a Roll Call Vote on the Motion to call the previous question. We were ignored by the Chair. We would like not to be ignored when we make those procedural Motions, Sir. If your side of the aisle can make procedural Motions to move the previous question, we should be entitled to make a request to have a Roll Call Vote on those Motions. And we hope in the future you will not fail to recognize us when we make such a request."

"We will not fail. You will note that the Chair did recall the request by Representative Schakowsky for the verification and I... had I heard someone on the mic request a Roll Call Vote for that Motion, I would have been happy to give it to you. Someone on staff on your side has a problem with that. House Bill 199. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 199, a Bill for an Act amending the Toll Highway Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Zickus." 24  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

March 23, 1995 "Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. House Bill 199 requires the Toll Highway Authority to acquire a building and any adjacent property used for the purpose of educating elementary or secondary students if the building lies within 100 feet of any ingress or egress ramp of a toll highway operated by the Toll Highway Authority. It also requires the authority to pay just compensation for the property in an amount equal to the replacement cost of the building and the adjacent property. This Bill is to address a situation in my district that has become known as the Disger dilemma, and we're asking the tollway authority to purchase the Dosher School, Indian Springs School District 109 in the Village of Justice. Since the mid 50's when the tollway was built adjacent to Dosher School, the air and noise pollution have continued to increase exposing the young students to continued carcinogenics diesel emissions and constant noise level. The situation has only increased with the tollway expansion. This legislation is about the health, safety, and welfare of 270 young grade school students trapped in an unhealthy and an unsafe learning environment. Dosher School was once surrounded by open spaces on a lonely gravel road, it is now squeezed into a small triangle of land with I-294 on one side. The fence of the tollway is only 41 feet from the school. On another side, is 88th Avenue. If Cook County expands, widens 88th Avenue as they had intended to do, the street will come within 12 feet, only 12 feet from the front of the building. The other street, the only ingress and egress to the property is a dead-end street that dead-ends into a trucking terminal. The young students must compete with diesel trucks, tanker trucks in order to reach their classrooms or their playground. The location has become 25  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 unsafe and it is no longer desirable for school purposes. The superintendent of the school in his written testimony talks about the comprehensive school recognition process and he states, the Dosher School site does not lend itself to meeting these requirements as a result of noise impact, air quality, and a safe school environment. Illinois goal assessment plans scores and tested administered in March '93 and '94, throughout District 109 indicate that students attending Dosher School scored noticeable lower than students from the other District 109 schools in a majority of assessment areas. The teachers complain that road noise interferes with conducting classroom activities. The students complain of emission ordors from heavy traffic on the toll road which lies directly upwind and adjacent to this school. In 1991, the Tollway Authority appraise the property for $1.2 million, then offered to contribute a walloping $130,000 toward relocating Dosher School students. At that time, the replacement cost was around $3 million. During the time the school district was attempting to negotiate with the Tollway Authority, the 79th street exit ramp was still open. The semi-trailer truck traffic was exiting that side at the rate of 90 trucks per hour. That's one truck every 30 seconds, all aimed at the front of the school. Many of these trucks were tankers and carrying flammable liquids. The exit ramp created yet another safety hazard, students living across the street from the school could not even walk and bus service had to be provided. The Tollway Authorities response to the concerns of the parents in the community was to close the ramp which they did in 1992, although it had been rebuilt and they can open it at anytime. The ramp closures just further complicated the situation. The noise 26  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 and pollution from the tollway traffic remained a health and safety threat to the students, but then in addition, the residents were really inconvenienced by the closure. There were traffic jams along the tollway and the local businesses really felt the impact. From the local White Hen, to the gas station, to the restaurants, barber shops, the businesses that depended on the traffic on a daily bases were all left with a lot less business and the revenue to the village was greatly reduced. I believe that at that time it was about 23%. What we're trying to accomplish is to move the students to a safer learning environment, there's another building that can be added on to house the Dosher Schools. We would then be able to open the tollway ramp, the businesses could once again strive and the students would have a safe place in which to learn and we're asking for your help to do this."

"Is there any discussion? The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Dart."

"Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"She indicates that she will. Please proceed, Sir."

"Representative, when was the tollway put in...what was there first, the school or the tollway?"

"Representative Zickus."

"I didn't hear the question."

"Representative Dart."

"What was put in first, the school or the tollway?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The original school was built in 1926 and it had been added on to over the years. The tollway came in the mid 50's."

"Representative Dart." 27  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Then the ramp came from the tollway afterwards, correct? After the school was already there?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The ramp came after the school was there."

"Representative Dart."

"Why in the world would the tollway do that in the first place? I mean isn't that the heart of the problem, why they would do something that stupid?"

"Representative Zickus."

"I can not answer for the tollway."

"Representative Dart."

"I don't think any of us can. The... Is this property going to be offered to any other seller other than the tollway? Why is it that it's just the tollway?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The expansion of the tollway is what has squeezed this school site into this little triangle. The school officials have met with with the village, they've discussed different marketing options, they've discussed strategy is zoning possibilities, tax breaks options. The problem that they run into before they can auction the school, they have to have so many months. They can't auction it more than, I believe, 15 months. They could do auction or bid, but not more than 15 months before they can give the property up. In this situation they need more time. They need to be able to built a facility to house the students. They need the money to do that. Then what the thought here was that the Tollway Authority could purchase the property SO that they would be able to construct the classrooms necessary and then the Tollway Authority could market it, if they SO desired."

"Representative Dart." 28  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Isn't it a fact that we've already blown over a $120,000 on erecting a wall to separate the tollway from the school, is not the ramp already closed?"

"Representative Zickus."

"A noise wall has been installed 41 feet from the school. They did close the ramp, however, the ramp had already been rebuilt. The ramp can be opened at anytime. The village needs the ramp open because it's had an adverse effect on the local businesses in the community, the tax revenue to the village. It's an inconvenience also to the people who live there who use the ramp."

"Representative Dart."

"Shouldn't we have the village by the land then instead of the Tollway Authority if they are the ones that are demanding that it's...reopened?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The village is not demanding that it be reopened. The people in the community and the business people would certainly like to see it be reopened. However, it was not the villages fault that put the school site in such a bad position. It was the tollway and the expansion of the tollway."

"Representative Dart."

"But, I mean we can't have it both ways. If they're the ones wanting to reopen this for business reasons and for the economic value of it, we can't be sitting there saying at the same time that we can have our cake and eat it too, that then we'll force the tollway to buy up the land. It's got to be one or the other, Representative. The other point is, now this is truly obviously as you mentioned, there is no other way of looking at it. This is special legislation directed exactly at your district. Why is it 29  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 directed in such a particular way, because I find it rather troubling because on the outskirts of my district, I have Eisenhower High School where we send almost 30 kids and teachers to a hospital when the Clark Refinery emitted all source of dust and particles into the air. I also have an incinerator that's about to be dropped right next to the school as well. Don't you think it would be a better way to operate if we were to pass legislation which would require different bodies to purchase land when we have these environmental hazards dropped right next to schools, whether it be a tollway or garbage burner or a refinery?"

"Representative Zickus."

"Representative, first I must say that this is not about the village or about the business, it is about the health and safety of 270 plus young grande school students who we are forcing into a situation...their learning environment that is unsafe. We're asking the Tollway Authority to purchase it because the Tollway Authority is the one responsible for the situation. Yes, this legislation is drafted SO that it pertains to this school. As far as I know there are...no there are no other schools that lie within 100 feet of the...of a exit ramp or face the safety threats and environmental threats that school does, not because of what they've done, but because of what's happened with the tollway."

"Representative Dart with ten seconds."

"My last question. But, don't you think it would be fair that we had it for all schools that are faced with these environmental hazards? Gave them that same benefit?"

"Representative Zickus for the answer."

"I think that if you have a special situation, that you should try to address it for your district. That's what 30  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 I'm trying to do for the students and the parents in this district."

"Further discussion? The Lady from Cook, Representative Fantin."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"She indicates that she will. Please proceed, Ma'am."

"Thank you. When you spoke of the appraisals being done by the tollway, I believe you said. Have you ever had an appraisal done, did the school authorities ever had an appraisal done on this property or on the building?"

"Representative Zickus."

"I believe the school did have an appraisal that came out a little more, but I'm not sure and I would have to look that up. I do know that the tollway appraised it a few years ago when they were looking...when they first started with their expansion and those are the figures that I have in my file."

"Representative Fantin,"

"Have the school authorities ever tried to sell the property to anyone else other than the tollway, have they offered the property for sell or..."

"Representative Zickus."

"Let me quote you a letter from the superintendent of School District 109. He has spoken to a realtor, Sheldon Good of Sheldon Good and Company to explore auction and bid means to sell this public property. It should be noticed...noted that public school property must be offered for sale by bid, either sealed or auctioned. Utilization of a minimum opening bid is permissible before they can use the broker. District 109 needs to utilize the classroom space at 'Dosher' School until the district can build other 31  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 facilities. Therefore, we will need to utilize the Dosher School at least another school year, that would be '95, '96, while other facilities are built if funding is forth coming. The realtor indicates that we should not attempt to sell the property, now, if we cannot give occupancy for 15 months or more. So, there stuck, they can't sell the property because they need it to house the students. They cannot move the students because they need the money from the property and they are assuring us that they are exploring all marking options and have been trying to deal with the tollway on it themselves."

"Representative Fantin."

"If the Tollway Authorities would buy this, what is the asking price, what would they expect the Tollway Authority to pay for this property?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The legislation is drafted for an amount equal to the replacement cost of the building and the adjacent property. The Tollway Authority has had plenty of opportunity. They have known about this legislation for awhile. They've had plenty of opportunity to sit down to discuss this, they have not done so. I'm going by an appraisal from 1991 that was 1.2 million and hopefully it should have appreciated in value during those years."

"Representative Fantin."

"I'm sorry, I didn't quiet hear the amount. What was the amount again, please?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The 1991 appraisal by the Tollway Authority was 1.2 million. From that, they offered to school $130,000."

"Representative Fantin."

"So, what amount are we asking the tollway now to pay for 32  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 this and where is this amount coming from? Is this coming from an appraisal that the school board had made or where are you coming with the amount and what is the amount, please?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The amount would be equal to the replacement cost of the building and adjacent property. There's no specified dollar amount. We need to...whatever it's going to cost, I believe it's 16 classroom that they need to house the 279 students."

"Representative Fantin."

"Leaving that pretty wide open, I feel... What kind of school are we talking about. I mean we can go to a Taj Mahal and we can go to a basic school. If there's no clear definition here of what they're asking... We're asking to be voting...to tell the Tollway Authority to purchase this property with not even telling them exactly. Do we have specífication, do we have drawings of what kind of school we're expecting to be building and what we're going to have them pay for, what we're voting to pay for here?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The school district is planning...would like to add on to an existing school, so I'm sure that it would be in conformity with the existing property. They have started...this Body approved, I believe it was around $287,000 for phase one studies and engineering for the feasibility studies and engineering. So it would be in accordance with that. This school district does a very good job with very little money and tries to do the best that they can."

"Representative Fantin, you are out of time. Further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, 33  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 Representative Schoenberg."

"Thank you very much. Will the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"She indicates that she will. Please proceed, Sir."

"Representative, I'm sorry I couldn't hear you above the noise. What was the appraised value of the property and what was the offer that was made for that property?"

"Representative Zickus."

"In 1991, the Tollway Authority appraised the property for $1.2 million, then offered them $130,000 towards the relocation because after they did the appraisal, they decided that they just wanted some of the easement."

"Representative Schoenberg."

"And since that 1991 appraisal, that was 4 years ago. Obviously everybody's property, or I should hope everyone's property at least shows some kind of appreciation in value over a 4 year period. What would you estimate, I know you can't...what would you estimate the current value would be? What's the value of property in that surrounding area? Would it be fair to say that the property value has remained steady so that there's a minimum of 1.2 million, or would you say that it's declined or would you say it has increased?"

"Representative Zickus."

"I really don't know what the property value would be today. I would imagine it that it has appreciated somewhat during that time. Also at that time, the replacement cost of this school is estimated to be around $3 million and I think that is what they're still trying to shoot for is about the 3 million replacement." 34  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Schoenberg."

"So, when the toll highway...so when the Toll Highway Authority comes in with a offer of 10% of what the appraised value is, meaning that they are ignoring 90% of what the value of the property is, has there been any attempt to make a counter offer to up that bid from the Toll Highway Authority?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The superintendent and the school officials have been in touch with the Tollway Authority. There's been correspondence back and forth, yes, but we've just run into a brick wall on it and that's why I'm submitting this legislation and asking for your help."

"Representative Schoenberg."

"So, what is the current position of the Illinois Toll Highway Authority with respect to this Bill?"

"Representative Zickus."

"I have not heard from them with respect to this Bill. This is not the first time I've tried this."

"Representative Schoenberg."

"Well, on the issue you had mentioned in a response to an earlier question, Representative, that this is necessary in order to preserve the environment and health and safety and well being of the students. I was wondering, isn't it standard procedure before any tollway or roadway is built, we don't by law currently enable private tollways to be built though we should, but for public tollways, aren't there environmental impact studies which are necessary before there is a sign-off to create any kind of roadway?"

"Representative Zickus."

"I would imagine, but if there is an environmental impact 35  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 study on this, they wouldn't have been able to expand the tollway at that location. I have to add something. The original part of this building was built in 1926 and they have added on to it through about 1980 and some of the things that, you know, that the state required them to do, so the local taxpayers has also paid an awful lot of money. In a building that old there's no air conditioning. When the weather is warm, they can't even open a window. If you open the windows, you can't hear inside of a classroom and the emissions from the vehicles coming in is very hard to breath."

"Representative Schoenberg, 45 seconds."

"Representative Zickus, because of the physical condition of the school building, has the State Board of Education or any other over-seeing body indicated that this building is simply to old, to unsafe and therefore, it should not be used?"

"Representative Zickus."

"Not to my knowledge. I don't think the state board has been involved and this has been a local issue, a lot of concern from the parents and the people in the community as well as the educators."

"Representative Schoenberg with seven seconds."

"Mr. Speaker, Mr..."

"Representative Schoenberg, the next person seeking recognition is the Gentleman from Tazewell. So, I would give you one more question and then we'll go to him. Representative Schoenberg."

"If I'm only getting one more question, I won't make it a rhetorical question then. It'll be to the Bill then."

"To the Bill." 36  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Representative Zickus, I don't think that anyone in good conscious could sign off on a deal where they where only getting 10%...where they were only getting 10%. There are a lot of school districts in the Chicago area and other suburban areas which are simply deemed to be of less than a safe nature, but nonetheless, students go there everyday to try to get an education, to try and enhance our economy, to try to enhance our society here in Illinois. It would seem to me to be contrary to good business sense and good public policy for us to suggest that we should vote for something that would only give .10 cents on the dollar..."

"Representative Schoenberg, bring your remarks to a conclusion, please. Representative Schoenberg."

"Just in closing, I believe that the Members of the Body should be very aware of the fact that I don't think anybody here would enter into any kind of agreement where they were only paying .10 cents on the dollar in order to get something that was worth 90% more."

"The Gentleman from Tazewell, Representative Ackerman. For what reason do you rise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"There's been a Motion for the previous question. All in favor will signify by saying 'aye'; any opposed will say 'no'. In the opinion of the Chair, the 'ayes' have it and the previous question is moved. Representative Zickus to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have to make a point, the appraisal was 1.2 million. It was the Tollway Authority who offered the $130 that was not accepted. But in closing, I would like to quote from the testimony of the school superintendent. The school district in the 37  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 community plead for your support of this Bill requiring the tollway to purchase the Dosher School for the students attending the school. When the students attending Dosher are away from negative safety, an environmental factor is effecting their educational environment and the tollroad 79th street ramp is open for the community business and commercial viability, our school and community will be ever grateful to our State Legislature and the the legislative process. I ask for your support and help for the students at Dosher School."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 199 pass?' All those in favor vote 'aye'; all those opposed vote 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Representative Lang, for what reason do you rise?"

"Thank you. Should this Bill receive the requisite number we would request a verification."

"Have all vote who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. There's been a request for a verification. Poll those not voting."

"Poll of those not voting. Representative Leitch."

"They were polling those who had not voted to see if...not voted. Representative Leitch is not here and did not vote, so. Mr. Clerk, poll those voting in the affirmative."

"Poll of those voting in the affirmative. Representative Ackerman. Balthis. Biggert. Biggins. Brady. Capparelli. Churchill. Ciarlo. Clayton. Cowlishaw. Cross. Deuchler. Durkin. Hanrahan. Hassert. Hoeft. Hughes. Johnson, Tim. Johnson, Tom. Jones, John. Klingler. Krause. Kubik. Lachner. Lawfer. Lindner. 38  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day Lyons. McAuliffe. Meyer. Mitchell. March 23, 1995 Moffitt. Moore, Andrea. Mulligan. Murphy, Maureen. Myers. Noland. O'Connor. Pankau. Parke. Pedersen. Persico. Poe. Roskam. Salvi. Santiago. Saviano. Skinner. Spangler. Stephens. Tenhouse. Turner, John. Wait. Weaver. Wennlund. Winkel. Winters. Wirsing. Wojcik. Zabrocki. Zickus.

Mr. Speaker. Speaker Churchill: "Questions of the affirmative, Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Representative McAuliffe?"

"He's in the back as always, here, always present smiling, ready to go early in the morning."

"Representative Capparelli?"

"Alright, Rogers, what did you do with Capparelli? The Chair does not see Representative Capparelli. Please remove him."

"Representative Tom Johnson? I said, Tom Johnson."

"Yes. For what reason does the Lady from DuPage, Representative Cowlishaw, rise?"

"Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to be verified?"

"No, I'm giving nobody leave to be verified, Mr. Speaker."

"You haven't yet. The Lady has made a request."

"Excuse me."

"The Lady has asked for leave to be verified."

"Well, then you can give her leave. I'm not giving her leave. You give her leave."

"Representative Capparelli is here. Please add him to the Roll. Representative Lang, would you give Representative Cowlishaw leave to be verified SO she can leave the Floor? I believe she needs to leave the Floor."

"I will give Representative Cowlishaw leave." 39  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Okay. March 23, 1995 Representative Cowlishaw, you have leave. Representative Tom Johnson. The Chair does not see Representative Tom Johnson. Please, remove the Gentleman. Further names, Representative Lang."

"Representative Wait?"

"Representative Wait is standing there waving at us."

"Representative John Jones?"

"Representative John Jones is in his seat."

"Representative Hassert?"

"Representative Lang, Representative Hassert is in his seat. That's two that have been in their seat."

"I guess these glasses just aren't working as well as they used to, Mr. Speaker. Representative Spangler?"

"Representative Lang, if you can turn around and look at the Gentleman behind you and fail to miss Representative Deering..."

"Oh, I'm not going to verify Representative Deering, I see him he's right here."

"Well, then how could fail Representative Spangler?" to see

"Well, I don't know, Mr. Speaker. I guess these long hours have just dimmed my vision."

"We believe that they are truly bookends."

"Representative Biggert?"

"Representative Biggert is in the aisle."

"Representative Stephens?"

"Representative Lang, Representative Tim Johnson wishes to know if you would give him leave to be verified."

"Sure. Why not. Representative Stephens, please."

"Representative Tim Johnson has leave to be 40  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day verified. March 23, 1995 I'm sorry, what is the other name, Representative Lang?"

"Stephens?"

"Representative Stephens is waving at us from the back."

"Representative Zabrocki?"

"Representative Zabrocki, would you please rise and wave at Representative Lang, so he can get to know who you are."

"Oh, I know Representative Zabrocki. He's a wonderful human being. Representative Tenhouse?"

"Not only is he a wonderful human being but he is also in his seat. Representative Tenhouse is waving from the back of the chamber. How are you this morning, Representative Tenhouse? Nice to see you."

"Representative John Turner?"

"Representative John Turner is standing right in front of you."

"Representative Cross?"

"Surprise, surprise. Representative Cross is here."

"Representative Maureen Murphy?"

"Representative Maureen Murphy is standing right in front of her desk."

"Representative Klingler?"

"Representative Lang, Representative Klingler is clearly in her seat"

"Representative Mitchell? Representative Winters?"

"Representative Mitchell is in the rear of the chamber in his seat, standing there waving at you, Representative Lang."

"Representative Winkel?" 41  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Representative Tom Johnson has returned, please add him back to the Roll. Representative Lang. Representative Lang, if you would like to, we would be happy to get a series of pictures of our freshmen. Perhaps that would help you in this Call. Oh, and your staff is saying 'yes'."

"Well, I have no idea what I would do with such a picture, Sir. Representative Poe?"

"You've been here for a long time, you've never had to do these verifications. You had asked for Representative Winkle. Representative Winkle is in his chair."

"And Representative Poe, Sir?"

"And Representative Poe is in his chair. Representative Lang, this is dilatory. The last 12 people you have called on have been in their chairs."

"Representative Myers?"

"That's 13, he's in his chair."

"Did I...oh, 13. Oh, that's perfect. That's all, Sir."

"Oh this question, there are 61 voting 'aye', 49 voting 'no', 5 voting 'present'. And this Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 323."

"House Bill 323, a Bill for an Act amending the Illinois Pension Code. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"The Bill will be brought back to second. And, now on the Order of Representative Bugielski. We have a separate Order of Business for Representative Bugielski. Is he in the chamber today? Mr. Clerk, would you read House Bill 731."

"Mr. Speaker, before Mr. Bugielski proceeds, since my speak light is still on..." 42  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Representative Lang, for what reason does the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang, rise to interfere with the order of Representative Bugielski."

"Thank you. On a point of order, Sir."

"Point of order."

"The last Bill was the second Bill in a row where we've demanded a Roll Call Vote on a Motion to call the previous question and the second Bill in a row that the Chair has ignored the Motion. Are you going to continue to ignore that Motion or we abide by your own rules, Sir?"

"If someone stands up and makes that Motion in a timely fashion, the Chair will recognize that Motion and we'll proceed that way. And the whole debate of the last time the Chair did not once hear, one person rise during that debate and request a Roll Call Vote on that issue."

"...vote on a Motion he makes at the end of the Bill, then should we demand that roll call, Sir."

"Sir, if you'll recall the debate from last year, those Motions were made during debate. We never knew for sure whether or not we were going to have that right. Representative Lang."

"So, let me get this straight. You want someone during debate to say, Mr. Speaker, if the man from Tazewell, Representative Ackerman or someone else on that side of the aisle chooses to make a Motion to call the previous question, then and only then, we would like a Roll Call Vote on said phantom Motion if it happens? That's want you want us to do?"

"That would be helpful, Sir."

"That's what we will do, Sir."

"Thank you. Do you have anything further or can we proceed to the Order of Bugielski? Representative 43  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 Bugielski, now that Representative Lang is finished, we'll turn our attention to you. Mr. Clerk, please read the Bill."

"House Bill 731, a Bill for an Act amending the School Code. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Bugielski."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. House Bill 731 amends the School Code to provide that persons who have been convicted of certain specified criminal offenses are ineligible to serve on members of the local school councils for the Chicago Board of Education. As most of you are aware, in the City of Chicago, every school has a local school council which is elected by the member of that school, by the parents of that school where there are six parent members, two community resident members, two teacher members and one student member. And all we are asking, and this is coming from the Board of Education, that the people that are convicted of certain crimes would not be able to serve on the local school council. These crimes deal with indecent solicitation of child, prostitution, public indecency, prostitution, keeping a house of prostitution, obscenity, child pornography, and criminal sexual assault to a juvenile. It's a very specific Bill. This only pertains to the local school councils in the City of Chicago and I ask for a favorable Roll Call."

"Is there any discussion? The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Because of your pronouncement a few moments ago, I would like to have a Roll Call if the Gentleman from Tazewell would move...or anyone else would move the previous question. So, we're trying to abide by 44  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 your ruling. So I would therefore, like to make that request at the present time and ask the Chair to honor that request."

"The Chair hears your request. Do you have further discussion?"

"No."

"The Gentleman from Tazewell apparently, they want to test whether or not this really works. The Gentleman from Tazewell, Representative Ackerman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"Representative Granberg, was that what you were requesting? So, we can now go to a Roll Call on moving the previous question."

"Obviously not, Mr. Speaker. Your pronouncement was that we would have to be recognized during the debate to anticipate a Motion by Mr. Ackerman to close off debate. Now, if that's how you interpret your rules, you certainly are inventive. But, we're trying to go according to your interpretation. Obviously, this Bill wants to be debated, there are lights flashing. Now you chose not to recognize them, pursuant to what you have done earlier this morning. But these are important issues that the Chair would respond to our Members. We're trying to abide by your rules. I wish your Members would as well. So, if you would recognize Members on this side of the aisle for discussion on this Bill, that would certainly be appreciated and then, if and when Mr. Ackerman would make that Motion or anyone else, we would like to have a Roll Call on that Motion, Sir."

"Well, there are no lights flashing on the Republican side of the aisle, so obviously, you wish to 45  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 debate the Bill with Representative Bugielski. So, the Chair would ask the Gentleman from Tazewell if he would withdraw that Motion at this time and then we will return to him at some future time so that the Democrats can debate the Bill with one of their own Members. The Gentleman withdraws his Motion at this time and the Chair would recognize the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Dart."

"Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, the underline notion makes sense in this, but what is...how are they proceeding right now that there is a problem here that we're having LSC members with criminal backgrounds? I mean, how is that going on right now?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"At the present time, I think they're asking for their removal, but they're not doing anything right now and because of this, they're asking for this to be enacted so that in case a person...when they...he fills out the application to be a member of the LSC and if he should lie on his application, he would be guilty of a Class III felony which would be punishable up to two to five years in prison and or a $10,000 fine. So, they're asking for this to be enacted so that they could...you know, if a person should lie when he fills out to run, they have something to go back on."

"Representative Dart."

"How it is that they would find out that the person is lying though, I mean, are these people subjected to background checks, the whole nine yards?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"This would authorize the School Board of 46  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 Education...the Chicago Board of Education to perform criminal background investigations on the applicants that are applying for this."

"Representative Dart."

"Well, this allows them or does this mandate them to do that?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"Directs them and mandates them."

"Representative Dart."

"And you delineate specific offenses, Representative. What type of offenses make these people ineligible?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"The type of offenses that make them ineligible would indecent solicitation of a child, public indecency, prostitution, soliciting for a prostitute, soliciting for a juvenile prostitute, pandering, keeping a place for prostitution, keeping a place for juvenile prostitution, patronizing a prostitute, patronizing a juvenile prostitute, pimping, obscenity, child pornography, criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault of a juvenile."

"Representative Dart."

"Was criminal sexual abuse one of those?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I'm sorry, I didn't hear you."

"Representative Dart."

"Was criminal sexual abuse or aggravated criminal sexual abuse one of those?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"Yes, criminal sexual abuse, that's on...yes."

"Representative Dart."

"Is aggravated criminal sexual abuse and aggravated criminal sexual assault also taken care of in this as 47  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day well?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I don't have...I don't have it on my notes, but I believe it's in there. It's all parts of...to be specific, it's all the crimes that are listed in Section 34-18.5 in subsection (c)."

"Representative Dart."

"So, the thrust of the offenses that we're prohibiting these people from being school council members are ones that have... sexual assaults, things like that, molestations dealing with children, correct?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"That is correct, Representative."

"Representative Dart."

"Does your Bill or does the present law make prohibitions in regards to individuals that are convicted of offenses such as murder or armed robberies or home invasions, things like that, or is that not dealt with."

"Representative Bugielski."

"I don't believe that that is pointed out in this Bill at this time."

"Representative Dart."

"I'm sorry. What is your answer?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I don't believe that that is stipulated in there. This is just what was given by the Chicago Board of Education."

"Representative Dart."

"As I mentioned before, I think it's...the ones that you have delineate here are laudable, the ones that we would rather not have those people there, but I would also contend that we probable wouldn't want murders or armed 48  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 robbers probably being on these LSC's as well. Does this Bill deal with all backgrounds of teachers or coaches or..."

"Representative Dart, are you done with your question? I thought there was an 'or' at the end there."

"Yeah, I just wanted to know if there was any other...individuals other than LSC members that were covered by this."

"Representative Bugielski."

"It's pointed out in here that it would authorize them to do background investigations on certified and non-certified employees, but I think they do that already. But I not positive on that."

"Representative Dart. To the Bill, Representative Dart, or are you done? Is there further discussion? The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates that he will. Please proceed, Sir."

"Representative, I'm sure... Representative, hi there. I'm sure you'll recall that there has been a big flak in the City of Chicago relative to people who are felons running for office and there's been some court cases, et cetera. How does this language mesh with the language relative to those running for alderman in the City of Chicago?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"Well, I think this is very specific where they bring out the points that these are mainly sexual commentated crimes that they are dealing with and I think they're just trying to keep these people away from dealing and being in the school with students, both elementary and high school, 49  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 and they do not want these people to be associated with the students in those schools. And I think it's a very good point to be, you know, their not being in there when they're...if they were convicted certain crimes that pertain to children."

"Representative Lang."

"So, is this different that the statutes in the City of Chicago regarding running for alderman as...is this a different set of things that you can't do or is the same law that has been challenged in the court recently?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I am unsure of that answer."

"Representative Lang."

"Let me go on to another area. I note that Amendments were filed in Committee, Representative, for the funding of education. The Fund Education First Amendment was filed on your Bill and it never got out of Committee. As a matter of fact, the Committee never heard it. Can you tell me what happened?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I believe that that Amendment was presented in Committee and it was sent to a subcommittee."

"Representative Lang."

"Representative, who is the chairman of that Committee?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"The chairman of that Committee is Representative Cowlishaw."

"Represent Lang."

"So, I just want to get this straight because I have to know what is on your Bill and what is not on your Bill. So Representative Cowlishaw and the education Committee took the Fund Education First Amendment and took the funding of 50  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day Education Priorities Amendment and shifted them off to a subcommittee. Is that right?"

"Perhaps, Representative Lang, if you have questions about the status of Amendments, you could address those to the Clerk. Do have a question to the Clerk?"

"No, I asked the Sponsor of the Bill about his Bill. He is entitled to tell me and I'm entitled to ask him everything that pertains to his Bill, Sir. And what happened to Amendments that people in this House tried to attach to his Bill are relevant to his Bill."

"If you address all that is not on his Bill, you will have a lot to address. Perhaps if you have questions regarding Amendments that are or not on the Bill, you can address those to the Clerk. Representative Bugielski."

"Thank you. There were Amendments that were filed to this Bill. They are not my Amendments. I presented House Bill 731 in Committee. There are other Amendments and I am not sure of the procedures that they have in that Committee because it seems that every committee has different rules, but there were Amendments, I believe there were two Amendments that were placed on this. Committee Amendment 1 and Committee Amendment 2 was put on this Bill and those two Amendments were given to the subcommittee and my Bill is just a clean Bill the same way that it was, you know, when I first introduced it."

"Representative Lang."

"So the Fund Education First Amendments which you've supported and which you've agreed to put on you Bill, never saw the light of day in that Committee. Is that correct?" 51  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Bugielski."

"That is correct. They are in the subcommittee."

"Representative Lang."

"That's really a shame, don't you think, that that Committee refused to address the problem of funding education when they had a perfect opportunity to do that with your Bill? Is that right?"

"Representative Lang, please address the Bill before us. Do you have a question about the Bill before us?"

"I've asked...this is my last question, Mr. Speaker. All he has to do is answer it."

"Representative Bugielski."

"It could have been addressed and it could have been attached to my Bill, but I have no control over those Amendments in that Committee."

"Representative Lang has concluded his remarks. Is there further discussion? The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "First, may I go on record as saying I do not lobby for the Board of Education? Mr. Bugielski."

"The Gentleman says that he will yield for a question." Davis, M.: "Thank you. Do LSC people work with children? Do they work in the school?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I don't believe that they work with the children, but they are present in the school many of times and the children are there."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "Are they in the school with the children unsupervised?" 52  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE Speaker Churchill: "Representative Bugielski."

"I don't believe they are."

"Representative Davis." March 23, 1995 Davis, M.: "Representative, the LSC members come in for a scheduled and planned meeting. They have a meeting. The principal is a part of their meeting and they adjourn. Are there other times in which LSC members are in the school and let's say having contact with children and if so would you tell us when those times are?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"Well, it's not their function to be in the school. It's up to them whether they want to come in because I know of schools where I have been in visiting principals and the principal has introduced me to members of the LSC because they have just stopped by the school at that specific time. They are not banned from coming into that school, depending on time of the day. I believe LSC members...it's not where they have full freedom of the school, but there are times that I have been schools and I have met members of the LSC because they stopped in to drop something off or to ask a teacher or something like that. And I have met people, so it's not where they are banned from the school when school is in session."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: Representative, when children enter the building at whatever time of day or evening, are there paid officials who are in supervisory capacities for those children?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I have no idea. I do not work for the Chicago Board of Education. I feel you would know the answer because you work for the Board of Education."

"Representative Davis." 53  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day Davis, M.: "Let me respond to you. March 23, 1995 Children are supposed to be Children are under...Mr. Bugielski are you listening? supposed to be under the direct supervision of paid staff at all times to my knowledge. Volunteers come into the building, but to my knowledge, volunteers are not approved nor legally responsible for the children they are there to supervise or be around. Our gang members who are people who were former gang members of gang recruiters, are they permitted to be on the LSC?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"If they run, they could be on there. You know, that's why we're putting this in if they were convicted of certain crimes they would have to declare that on their application."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "Each person who is running, you're telling me, will have to list any crime that he or she had been convicted of and had served time for. Now, I think I heard you say child solicitation or sexual abusive children, prostitution. I didn't hear your response in reference to murder. I didn't hear you response in reference to kidnapping."

"Representative Bugielski."

"Those were crimes that I listed and I believe in the application, they would have a line there and ask the question, have you been convicted of any crime or felony, whatever it may be, and it's going to be up to that person to write yes or no and if he answers yes, he should list what they are. And if he lies on that and they do a criminal investigation, then they have an option to go back and prosecute that person."

"Representative Davis, you have a minute and 54  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day 15 seconds left." Davis, M.Thank you. Would you give me your time, whoever? Let me ask you this, Bugielski. Suppose a person does not put down that they have been convicted of a crime. What would instigate an investigation to find out whether they had or not? What would make this investigation begin?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"What would make the investigation? The Board of Education would perform this criminal background check."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.:"...applicant."

"What?"

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "On every applicant?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"That applies for the local school council yes."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "How many people apply to run for those positions? And how many people run?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I do not have statistics on that. You would have to ask your employer, the Board of Education."

"Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "Representative, I'm only asking you for the parents of the children that I represent. Now, if a person puts down...now you want to know how many people there are on the council? There's about 640 schools and there are..."

"Representative Davis, we have another person seeking recognition and then I will come back to Representative Flowers who can give you addition time. At this point, the Chair would recognize the Gentleman from Will, Representative Wennlund." 55  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will. Please proceed."

"Representative Bugielski, now, I understand that what this Bill does is that it provides the persons who have been convicted of certain specified criminal offenses are ineligible to serve as members of these local school councils. My question is, does that also apply to alderman in the City of Chicago?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"As far as I know, it's for the City of Chicago, the Board of Education that has the local school councils."

"Representative Wennlund."

"Thank you, Representative Bugielski. It's an excellent start. I suggest you pursue my suggestion, though. Thank you."

"Further discussion? he Lady from Cook, Representative Flowers. Representative Flowers."

"I would like to yield my time to Representative Davis, please."

"Representative Davis, Representative Flowers Davis: has yielded five minutes to you. Proceed." "Representative Bugielski do the board members across the State of Illinois, I think they are about 1,000 school districts, do they have criminal background checks of those people who get elected on those school boards or is this only for the people in Chicago?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I am not aware of that. I have no idea."

"Representative Davis."

"If you have a student who graduated from a particular school and who was a gang member and who was a gang recruiter and he eventually gets convicted of a crime and 56  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 he goes to jail and comes back. Can he run for local school council?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"Not if it's one of those specified crimes."

"Representative Davis."

"Please list the specified crimes."

"Representative Bugielski."

"I have listed them three times already. You should have paid attention."

"Representative Davis."

"You just lost about 10 votes. Now, we were talking about how many people the Board of Education would have to have background checks for. Two members on the council are teachers and one is a principal, so that is three. Eight people times 640 is the number of people that would have to be investigated. Mr. Bugielski, do you happen to have an investigative business in which you are trying to get work for? Are you attempting to get work for an investigative service that you provide?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"I do not, but I wish I was an employee of the Board of Education maybe they would hire me."

"Representative Davis."

"Mr. Bugielski, if you got a degree perhaps someone would hire you. But my final question is...my final question, Mr. Bugielski, is when people are convicted of a crime and they are given a sentence by a judge and once they have served their time, when is the sentence over in Illinois? They can't drive a school bus, they can't work in a nursing home. There are so many laws that we are passing to say if you have been convicted of a crime, you can not do this or you can not do that and yet as pointed out by this very 57  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 elegant honorable Representative, they are allowed to serve in the city council and make laws for the whole city regardless to the crimes they have committed. But when you're talking about people sitting on a local school council who are there to make laws or recommendation to run a school only for their children, you want to eliminate them. Now with the people, I can name a whole lot of places. With the people in some of these areas where children have killed their parents or their brothers or their sisters, would they be denied for sitting of the council or is it just in Chicago? You see what you are attempting to show here is that the people in Chicago are all criminals and that those of us who do this investigative work can get a lot of contracts with the Board of Education if you pass a law that says we can investigate the people running for the council. Now, are the people elected when you investigate them or are they just running when you investigate them? Are they running when you investigate them or are they already on the council?"

"Representative Bugielski."

"They are already elected. Elected or appointed."

"Representative Davis."

"So, once they become elected or appointed then the Board of Education starts this investigation into their background."

"Representative Bugielski."

"That is correct, and if they find out that they have lied on their application, then they have the authority to come back and prosecute them for lying on their application."

"Representative Davis, 38 seconds left." 58  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"To the Bill I would suggest that your attempt perhaps is to discourage people from running. I think your attempt is to discourage parents from participating. The majority of our people in Chicago are not criminals. The majority have not been to jail, but those who have been to jail and served their sentence, do not need a scarlet letter on their back, Mr. Bugielski. We do not want to go back to the day where you put a scarlett letter on anybody whose committed a crime because some people in Chicago get away with committing crimes. They know the right people and they..."

"The Chair would now recognize the Lady from Dupage, Representative Cowlishaw. Representative Cowlishaw."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This is a good Bill. It is fair. It is reasonable. We ought to pass it. Thank you very much."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lopez."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker I move to the previous question."

"It's a Motion for the previous question. All in favor will say 'aye'; all opposed will say 'no'. The 'ayes' have it and the previous question is moved. Representative Granberg, if I remember correctly, you said if Representative from Tazwell or anyone else from that side of the aisle made that Motion you requested a vote, but you did not specify if someone from your side of the aisle made that same Motion. Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, that was not the case, Sir. We said the Gentleman from Tazwell or anyone else in this House that would make that Motion." 59  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

March 23, 1995 "The Chair did not hear one dissenting vote from your side of the aisle during the oral Roll Call on that. Representative Granberg."

"Mr. Speaker, we are trying to abide by your rules and your pronouncement on how we are going to operate the House. We complied with your request and that is what we've done and we would respect the fact that we have attempted to follow your request and we would hope you would do that, follow your own pronouncement. We have requested a Roll Call on a Motion to limit debate to move the previous question and you said you would acknowledge that request."

"This is a really good test to determine whether these are dilatory Motions. There wasn't one person on your side of the aisle that rose to say no when I asked for the 'noes' on that vote. Representative Granberg."

"Mr. Speaker, that's because we were operating under the assumption that you were going to give us a Roll Call which you indicated previously that you would."

"I indicated I would give you a Roll Call if there was someone from the Republican side of the aisle. But you did not I clearly remember your statement you did not request a Roll Call. Someone from your side of the aisle made that same Motion. Representative Granberg."

"Mr. Speaker, we indicated the Gentleman from Tazwell or any other member that would attempt to make the Motion. You indicated that you would grant our Motion. We relied on your representation. We assumed that you would be an honorable man and that in the Chair, you would be objective and we were trying to comply with your ruling, Sir."

"Representative Granberg, perhaps the next 60  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 time you rise to make that same Motion, you will be more clear and include the Members on your own side of the aisle. Representative Granberg."

"Mr. Speaker, you have repeatedly ignored Representative Lang and others who have requested Roll Calls on these Motions. We've attempted to comply with your ruling now, Sir. Now, you are saying that you will not perform the way you have said you indicated previously that you would, the Chair would. The Chair is supposed to be objective. You have made that pronouncement. We are trying to abide by your pronouncement and now you are finding some other reason not to give us a Roll Call on the Motion that you indicated previously that you would. Mr. Speaker, these are your rules. We are trying to abide by your rules. We wish the Chair would abide by your rules and we ask again for a Roll Call on the Motion to move the previous question."

"That question is over, Representative Granberg. The Chair does follow the rules and the Chair was kind enough and specific enough to make your request known to the Body and I am very certain that you were intending and thinking and actually saying that that Motion came from the Republican side of the aisle and when in fact, the Motion came from your side of the aisle this time. Perhaps you'll get your opportunity in another second to make that same Motion and we'll witness how you rise to make that Motion at that time. At this time, I think it would be only fair to allow Representative Bugielski the opportunity to close. Representative Bugielski, would you like to close? Representative Bugielski."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just ask for a favorable 61  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Roll Call and just to...this Bill was up in the 88th General Assembly and it passed out of the House 113 to nothing and I just ask for a favorable Roll Call. Thank you."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 731 pass?' All those in favor vote 'aye'; any opposed vote 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, there are 96 voting 'aye', 16 voting 'no', and 3 voting 'present'. This Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. House Bill 956. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 956, a Bill for an Act amending the Civil Administrative Code of Illinois. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Wennlund."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, what this Bill does is it requires the Department of Insurance to administer a program to provide assistance and information to senior citizens in relation to insurance matters and I urge your support of the Bill. Thank you very much."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang. Representative Leitch in the chair."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Why do we need to make these changes? What's the purpose of this and why did Amendment 3 delete the advisory board?"

"Representative Wennlund."

"You may too grow old someday, Representative Lang, and 62  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 realize that matters like medicare and medicare supplement and all these confusing terms confuse senior citizens like myself. I don't understand them, but senior citizens deserve a one on one relationship with the Department of Insurance so that the department knows how and understands how to counsel the senior citizens."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Before I proceed, Mr. Speaker, I am joined by enough of my colleagues to take this off of Short Debate. And further, Mr. Speaker, when we get to the vote on this Bill we would demand a verification and further should anyone make a Motion to call the previous question, we would demand a Roll Call. Would you acknowledge all of those, Sir?"

"Those Motions are not timely, but if you make them at the appropriate time, they will be considered.

Representative Lang.' Lang: "Well, now I would like to turn off the timer because now I have a point of order and then I will proceed with my questioning. May I proceed with my point of order, Sir?"

"You were recognized to address the Bill. We'll come back to the point of order. Representative Lang, to the Bill."

"Thank you. I'm unsure as to why you deleted this advisory board. I know I just asked you that question, but I really didn't understand the answer. Some people in my district might have thought the senior citizen advisory board was a good idea. I have more senior in my district, Representative, than any district in the State of Illinois. So, they are interested in your Bill. I would like to know why you don't feel they should serve on an advisory board."

"Representative Wennlund." 63  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm delighted you have so many senior citizens in your district, Representative Lang, and that's one good reason why you ought to support this Bill. The Department of Insurance indeed supports this Bill because it believes that it needs to recruit and train volunteers to provide one on one counseling to senior citizens on insurance matters. I believe that we need to educate seniors on insurance matters through public forums and this Bill requires that the department solicit the volunteers, senior citizen volunteers, for their input and advise on the success and accessibility on this program and it's described to insure that all senior citizen residing in Illinois have access to insurance programs and to this program that provides vital counseling and vital education on very complicated insurance matters that senior citizens face on a day to day basis."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. By the way, Mr. Speaker, I am entitled to ask for a verification any time I have control of the microphone as any other member of this Body is so you can not deny that. So let me proceed with my questions. Representative, Subsection D of your Amendment which has become the Bill, you say that the Department shall strive to insure that all senior residing in Illinois have access. What does that mean is that some legal language I've never heard before? Strive? What does that mean, how will they do that? What are they supposed to do?"

"Representative Wennlund."

"That means they are going to do it."

"Representative Lang.'

"That means what, Sir?"

"Representative Wennlund." 64  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995

"It means they are going to do it or else."

"Representative Lang."

"Or else what, Sir?"

"Representative Wennlund."

"Or else they will incur the wrath of senior citizens in Illinois and they have no intention of doing so."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, are you suggesting that if they don't do it they will preempted their rights of senior citizens throughout Illinois, Sir. Is this another preemption Bill?"

"Representative Wennlund."

"Now that you put it that way I kind of like that. Yes, as a matter of fact it is."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, perhaps we should have an order of preemptions for you and we could have all the Wennlund Bills on that order. Let me ask you an additional question. The Department has indicated there is no fiscal impact. How are they going to do all these thing? Train these volunteers, strive to reach out to all these seniors in Illinois without having any fiscal impact whatsoever. What are you reading, Sir, Moby Dick? What are you doing over there?"

"Representative Wennlund."

"Thank you. Representative Lang, the word 'strive', according to Webster's New World, for you edification, Sir, since apparently you didn't cover this in law school, means to make great efforts to try very hard to be in conflict struggle, contend, fight as in strive against depression, to compete. That's what the word 'strive' means. And by golly you know the Department of Insurance will make this work."

"Representative Lang, bring your remarks to a 65  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day close, please."

"Thank you..."

"We will give you one more minute." March 23, 1995

"Thank you. Well I have many that are willing to give me their time if you would acknowledge them now that would be fine. If not, we can come back. But Representative Wennlund did not answer my question, Sir. The question was whether what this was going to cost. The Department indicates no cost. I don't see how it can be no cost if we have to reach out to seniors and if we have to print pamphlets and we have to train volunteers. There certainly has to be some cost even though this is a very worthy program I would just like to find out how you are going to do it and what will it cost Sir?"

"Representative Wennlund."

"The reason why it's not going to cost anything is for two reasons. Number one, because it's going to be done with senior citizen volunteers, who care about their fellow senior citizens. And besides that, the Department of Insurance is an excellent money manager. We should have more like it in this state."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Well, how will they recruit these volunteers? Will they come out of the sky or are they all going to listen to todays debate and run to the department..."

"Before we proceed, I would like the Body to recognize a pack 56 of cub scout troop from Wyanet ith their den leaders John and Nancy Erickson. Welcome to the General Assembly. The Lady from Cook, Representative Schakowsky. Your time has expired, Representative. We'll come back to you in a moment. I gave you an extra minute, Representative. Representative Wennlund, will you answer 66  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 the Gentleman's question?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The last thing I can recall is Pack 56."

"Representative Lang."

"The question was how will they get these seniors to volunteer for this worthy program. Are we going to send them all copies of todays debate so they know this program exists? Of course not. We are going to have to reach out to them and tell them about this program. That will have some cost. The question is how will we do that? And don't tell the Department of Insurance will handle it in their usual wonderful fashion. We are entitled to know how. We're entitled to know the cost. There are probably seniors in my district that would like to volunteer for this program. How will they know it exists?"

"Representative Wennlund."

"Representative Lang, I have every confidence that you will reach out into every nook and cranny and corner of your district and advise the senior citizens in your district that this program is there and reach out to these seniors and make recommendations to the director of the Department of Insurance that your senior citizens should be involved in this program and I am confident that every Representative here and every Senator will reach out to there district and reach out to every senior citizen and make them aware that this program exist for their benefit."

"For what purpose does the Lady from Cook, Representative Schakowsky, rise?"

"I wanted to ask a question."

"Will the Gentleman yield? He indicates he will. Representative Schakowsky."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the 67  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 House, you know for five years I was director of the Illinois State Council of senior citizens and I would agree with you, Representative, that the issue of insurance, the complication of supplemental and medicare and all the various pamphlets, I assure you that around the state one dining room tables everywhere there are stacks of insurance documents that many seniors regardless of their level of education can't make hide nor hare of, so I understand the intent of this Bill, but one of the thrusts that we had was to try and get the language made in plain English in insurance forms. And there have been several pieces of legislation that I think would perhaps not preclude the need for this legislation, but would certainly make life easier for not only seniors, but others to have plain English in insurance forms. I was just curious if you support, have supported, or would support that kind of legislation."

"Representative Wennlund."

"One of the first things that students learn in law school is that contracts, which an insurance policy is, are contracts and that contracts use what we call words of art. Now these are words that from the common law back in the plains on running mead, forward, have been interpretted by the courts to have specific meanings attributed to them. Case after case after case that have gone to the United States Supreme Court and have developed specific meanings as words of art. Now it is the job of the Department of Insurance and this Senior program to interpret those words of art which provide certainty in the law in all contracts and that is why this program will help senior citizens and explain to senior citizens who could read for years and never understand. I could read medicare for years and 68  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 never understand what medicare supplement or medicare is I couldn't even explain it to my mother regardless of how often I read the policy. The job of the Department of Insurance is to make it clear and to explain what these words of art are in contracts like insurance policies."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Representative, I support your legislation, but your explanation of why we can't understand insurance policies, I believe is perhaps spoken like a lawyer because I don't agree that we couldn't have language that is both precise and exact and understandable to ordinary human beings. And that we ought to not then have to create addition bureaucracy, spend more money in order to simply explain what would be self evident to people if that language were clear. So while I support this, I think it really requires a much more fundamental improvement."

"Thank you, Representative. The Gentleman from Tazwell, Representative Ackerman."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"The previous question has been put. All in favor shall say 'aye'. Call the Roll. Roll Call. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? On the Motion 62... Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On the Motion, there are 63 voting 'yes', 52 voting 'no', and the Motion is adopted. Representative Wennlund to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. This Bill will help senior citizens understand insurance matters. Please help the seniors and vote 'aye'."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 956 pass?' All those in favor shall vote 'aye'; all those opposed 69  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 vote 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, there are 114 voting 'aye', 0 voting 'no'. This Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. Representative Lang, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I clearly requested on the record on not one, but two occasions, a verification of that vote."

"Mr. Lang, we are not going to verify Bills that go out of here with 114 votes. Representative Lang."

"Two things need to be said about that. First of all, you don't have a choice in the matter under your own rules. Second of all I was going to withdraw the verification request I simply wanted you to acknowledge that it was made. And a simple request, Representative Lang, you don't really want to verify this, do you? Would have gotten a simply answer. But you do not have the right, Sir, to take my rights away from me under the rules you pass. Your rules will not allow you to take the right to have a verification away from any member of this Body. Your rules do not allow you to take that right away. Do you understand that Sir?"

"Thank you for your comments, Representative Lang. Thank you for your advise. On the order of Third Reading is House Bill 1202. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 1202."

"House Bill 1202, a Bill for an Act amending the Criminal Code of 1961. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Wait."

"Mr. Speaker..." 70  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Mr. Clerk, please reread that Bill."

"House Bill 1202, a Bill for an Act amending the Illinois Vehicle Code. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Chair recognizes Representative Wait."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. House Bill 1202 deals with the transportation issue and I'm chairman of the Transportation Committee. Basically, all this does will allow semi trailers to increase the length by three feet to 45 feet 6 inches on Class I and Class II highways. It also would allow the overall length of the tracker and trailer to 65 feet on Class III and other state highways. I would be happy to answer any questions."

"The Representative from Effingham, Representative Hartke."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. Mr. Wait, could you explain what this Amendment is doing?"

"Representative Wait."

"Basically, Amendment #1 becomes the Bill and as an agreement between the truckers and the State Police and IDOT. And all it does is allow to increase the length of the trailer by 3 feet to 45 feet 6 inches on Class I and Class II highways and also allows the overall length of the tractor and trailer on Class III and other state highways up to 65 feet."

"Representative Hartke."

"Thank you, Mr. Wait. I wanted that brought out too, because this is an agree Amendment and so forth, something we've been working on, the Department of Transportation and myself and the trucking industry for a couple years now. There is a new technology out here streamlining the semis and so forth and the configuration of the trucks to make it more fuel efficient and so forth. This is a good small 71  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day business Bill. It helps the trucking industry. It does not hurt the State of Illinois. It doesn't hurt our highways. The Department of Transportation is neutral on the issue if not for it. The State Police have agreed and so I think it's a very good piece of legislation and I'm looking for it to being signed into law."

"The Gentleman from McHenry, Representative Skinner."

"Will the Sponsor please yield for a question?"

"He indicates he will."

"Would you tell us what a Class III highway is?"

"Representative Wait."

"Representative, there is Class I, which is interstate. Class II is other major highways designated by the IDOT. And Class III is other state highways designated by IDOT."

"Representative Skinner."

"So what this Bill will do is allow 65 foot trailers on every state highway in the State of Illinois. Is that correct?"

"Representative Wait."

"Yes."

"Representative Skinner."

"Well Representative, I guess I have to stand to oppose your Bill. I drive on a lot of two lane highways and passing trucks that are not speeding and there indeed are some of those, but not very many, is difficult enough on the Route 47s of the State of Illinois without having the trailers being 3 feet longer. The State Police are supposedly in favor of this. I guess the accident rates will show wether that is a good judgement or not. IDOT is neutral I guess that IDOT's basic position this session, but I don't think that folks that are driving cars that are 72  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 trying to pass trucks going 50 miles an hour on two lane highways are going to be really happy with this Bill."

"The Gentleman from Washington, Representative Deering. Representative Deering. The Lady from Cook, Representative Kaszak. Representative Kaszak."

"I would like to yield my time to Representative Lang."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, when you have extended vehicles and extended axles, don't you run a greater risk when these vehicles make turns of hitting curbs and hitting off ramps?"

"Representative Wait."

"First of all, it would depend of the driver, but I might say we allow currently semis and tractor up to 75 feet long so we actually permit ones currently with the current law up to 75 feet. This is just allowing another classification to go to 65 so it still would be 10 feet less that what we already currently allow in other types of vehicles."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. You would acknowledge; however, that the longer a vehicle that the more likely it is that when the vehicle makes a turn it is going to hit something, more likely."

"Representative Wait."

"Well, I don't know if you can assume that. These are professional drivers and let me tell you I'm confident that they can negotiate these curved because these are only going to be allowed on roads that would properly handle them. And it does not have anything to do with weight, so 73  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 it's not going to harm the roads or break them up."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, you really still haven't answered the question. I know these drivers are great drivers, but the longer you make the vehicle, doesn't it make it tougher to negotiate a turn and negotiate a curve, to negotiate stopping, to negotiate off ramps?"

"Representative Wait."

"Again, I guess I would say it would come back to the driver. I mean, we allow up to 75 feet currently. This would only allow another classification up to 65. So it still would be 10 feet shorter than what we already permit."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, we already permitted 10 feet longer than this. Why do you need this Bill?"

"Representative Wait."

"The 75 feet basically applies to car carriers is what it does. For example, they drive all the time for the Chrysler plant which is in my district and they don't seem to have any problems negotiating the roads. So if we would allow this for these type of trailers and only 65, I'm confident that they can negotiate the roads."

"Representative Lang."

"Is it conceivable that longer vehicles on the road become a safety hazard to other drivers? It surely is easier for other drivers to see around and to pass a 10 foot long vehicle than a 65 foot long vehicle. Isn't it?"

"Representative Wait."

"If IDOT and the State Police who were originally opposed to the Bill now are neutral on the Bill, apparently they are convinced that it is not a safety factor." 74  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Lang."

"Well, of course I wasn't asking IDOT, I was asking you, Sir. I just asked a simple question. I may vote for your Bill. It is just a simple question. Isn't it a little less safe to pass a vehicle 10 feet longer than one that is 10 feet shorter?"

"Representative Wait."

"I wouldn't necessarily say that's the case."

"Representative Lang."

"You obviously don't spend much time driving on I-55 and I-57 in this state, Sir. Thank you very much."

"The Gentleman from Tazwell, Representative Ackerman, for what purpose do you rise? Representative Ackerman, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"The Motion to move the previous question has been put. All in favor shall say 'aye'; opposed the same. We'll have a Roll Call. Mr. Clerk... All in favor shall vote 'aye'; opposed shall vote 'nay'. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. And on this Motion, there are 62 voting 'aye', 53 voting 'no', and the Motion is adopted. Representative Wait to close. Representative Wait."

"Basically, this is a good Bill. It has bipartisan support from both the Democrats and Republicans. Representative Hartke has been working on this. Like I say, State Police and IDOT have signed off it. All it does is allow semi trailers from the king pin to the rear axle to be extended three feet and allows the overall length to be 65 feet. And it's a good Bill. It is not a safety factor and 75  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 there's no opposition to this from State Police or IDOT. I would simply ask for your support on this Bill."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 1202 pass? All those in favor shall vote 'aye'; opposed shall vote 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, there are 49 voting 'yes', 61 voting 'no', 4 voting 'present'. Representative Wait, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Mr. Speaker, could I postpone consideration?"

"Yes. The Gentleman is entitled to postpone. Mr. Clerk, please put House Bill 1202 on the order of consideration - postponed. House Bill... Mr. Clerk, please call House Bill 1651."

"House Bill #1651, a Bill for an Act that amends the Criminal Code of 1961. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Lawfer."

"Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 1651 is entitled Hour Meter Fraud. And simply what it does is, states that any person with the defend to defraud, disconnect or resets, or alters an hour meeter on any used farm implement with intent to conceal or change the hours of operation shall be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. It also says that a person convicted of a second violation of this section shall be guilty of a Class 4 felony. It exempts people that are in illegitimate practice of recycling used parts. I would be glad to answer any questions."

"Is there any discussion? The Representative from St. Claire, Representative Hoffman. For what purpose do you rise?" 76  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Yes, will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, explain to me what exactly an hour meter is."

"Representative Lawfer."

"An hour meter is either a mechanical devise or an electronic devise on farm equipment that measures the number of hours that that machine has been in operation. It is very much similar to od meter or a speedometer on a car. It shows how many hours or how much operation has been transpired on that implement."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Do all farm implements have hour meters on them?"

"Representative Lawfer."

"Most major farm implements, whether it be combines and tractors, do have hour meters on them, yes,"

"Representative Hoffman."

"This doesn't in any way require individuals to put an hour meter on a farm implement that would not presently have an hour meter on it?"

"Representative Lawfer.'

"No."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Representative, the hour meter...it indicates that with regard to the hour meter, if you conceal or change the actual hours of operation, then you could be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor and a second offense a Class 4 felony. With regard to that provision, has there been a problem? Have you heard from farm implement dealers that there's a problem? Or from the farm bureau? Or who is behind this? What brought this up and why do you need it?"

"Representative Lawfer." 77  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"A used tractor, for example, a 40/20 John Deere tractor that may have 3000 hours on that. That's about a 10 year old vehicle or tractor. That might be worth $20,000. If it had 5,000 hours on it it, might be worth 5 to $6,000 less. So the changing of an hour meter on that particular model of tractor from say 5,000 back to 3,000 changes the value of that probably 5 to $6,000. And that is a problem as machinery moves from dealers and people that deal in used farm machinery. You can easily do this and it is a defraud and intent to conceal the amount of wear on that farm implement."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Well, Representative, in the Bill it says that you have to prove intent to conceal or change the hours of actual operation. So you have to prove intent that there was some intent there in order to, I guess, defraud or that they were attempting to conceal the actual hours. My question with regard to the farm implements is they aren't really like cars and that farm implements are used in situations that many times rough terrain and it would seem as though that it would be easier for accidentally these hour meters to be either broken or accidentally disconnected. How would you prove intent under this Bill?"

"Representative Lawfer."

"Routine maintenance on any tractor or implement, it does sometime require the changing of hour meters whether they be electronic or mechanical and I think that any dealer or any person in a reputable business points out that this hour meter has been changed and because it had become faulty and in that case, there is no intent to defraud."

"Representative Hoffman."

"No, I understand that. But if an hour meter has been 78  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 disconnected in some way, it could because of the nature of the use of farm implements, it could have been as a result of the use, an accidental disconnection. What I am saying is under this Bill you have to prove intent. How do you prove that it was intentionally concealed or intentionally changed as opposed to something happening accidentally with regard to the hour meter."

"Representative Lawfer."

"I think that the courts would have to decide and prove this. Very much similar to as they do now in regards to the changing of speedometers on automobiles."

"Representative Hoffman you have 44 seconds."

"I'm almost done, Mr. Speaker. I think that it's a good Bill. I wish there was a little bit more in here with regard to intent, but I think that addresses the situation that probably needed to address... To be honest with you, I was surprised that it hadn't already been addressed in other legislation. So, I don't see any problems with the Bill and I would urge an 'aye' vote."

"The Gentleman from Bureau, Representative Mautino. Representative Granberg, is the Gentleman in the Chamber? Representative Lawfer to close. Is there any other discussion? Excuse me. Representative Hartke."

"Will the Gentleman yield for a question."

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Lawfer, I think this is a good idea, too. Can you inform the Body on what is the average expectancy of the life of one of these tractors with their hour meters?"

"Representative Lawfer."

"Representative Hartke, I'm not sure that I can explain that...the average life of that. I've seen hour meters go 79  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day 5000 hours. March 23, 1995 I've seen them go 10,000 hours. Sometimes it depends. Average life on that I think the new ones now do pretty much live the useful life of the implement."

"Representative Hartke."

"Well, my experience is that it really depends upon the operator. It's like a car sometimes with 10,000 miles on a car and if it's in proper oil changes and SO forth, are not...and maintenance is not on the car, that automobile will wear out real quick and the same way with a tractor. But I think that this is a good piece of legislation because it is an indication on the amount of wear that the engine has had and I support the legislation."

"Thank you. The Lady from Lake, Representative Gash. Representative Gash. Is there any other discussion? If not, Mr. Lawfer to close."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, this Bill is very much similar to the existing language that now exist in regards to automobiles. All we are doing is enlarging it to include farm implements and I urge a favorable vote on this. Thank you."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 1651 pass?' All those in favor shall vote 'aye'; those opposed vote 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? On this Motion, there are 115 voting 'aye', 0 voting 'no'. Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this Motion, there are 115 voting 'yes', 0 voting 'no', 0 voting 'present'. And this Bill, having received the Constitutionally... is hereby declared passed. Representative Currie, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Thank you. I rise with a parliamentary inquiry. House Rule 25; defining the powers and duties of the Speaker. 80  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Point number 3, one of your duties is to announce the business before the House and the order in which it is to be acted upon. Now it was my understanding that your intent generally speaking, was to go through the calendar, but we haven't done that this morning. We've been skipping large numbers of Bills, whole pages of the Calendar. There is an opportunity for the operation of special orders if that is what the Chair wants to do, but there have been no special orders. Instead, you seem to be roaming the Calendar in a completely indecipherable fashion. So perhaps recognizing the point in the rule that I just read, you would inform the Body what Bills you intend to call and on what basis you decide that it is appropriate to skip whole pages of the Calendar as you go from one number to the next. So, could the Chair inform the Body what is the order of business, how that order is determined and what Bills we may anticipate you will call?"

"Thank you, Representative...the order...as we are on the order of Third Reading. We have been going in a numerical order and the Bill before us next will be House Bill 1790. Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 1790."

"House Bill 1790, a Bill for an Act relating to the education of nurses in Illinois. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Ciarlo on House Bill 1790."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. House Bill 1790 amends three separate Illinois Acts which impact scholarship programs managed by the Department of Public health. It amends the Civil Administrative Code to authorize the department of professional regulations to deny a license or it's renewal to any person defaulting on an educational scholarship provided by any state agency. It also amends the Nursing 81  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Education Scholarship Law to eliminate the requirements that eligible applicants have been in the upper half of their highschool classes or be licensed as a practical nurse in Illinois. It also amends the Illinois Nursing Act of 1987 to eliminate the termination date for transfers of moneys from the Nursing Dedicated and Professional Fund which are used to fund the Nursing Educational Scholarship programs. I would move for a 'yes' vote on this."

"Thank you, Representative. Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Bureau, Representative Mautino."

"Thank you. Will the Lady yield?"

"She indicates she will."

"Representative, is there any cost involved in the changes you are proposing to make?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"No, Sir, there isn't."

"Representative Mautino."

"In your Bill, how will this change the current way it's being...the scholarships are being administrated...or the funds are being administrated?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"I'm sorry. I didn't hear you."

"If we could have a little order please. Representative Ciarlo. Representative Mautino, would you please ask your question again? The Lady couldn't hear you."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. How would this change the current way the Department is administering this?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"It's not going to change the program; it's only going to change one eligibility requirement." 82  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Mautino."

"And what requirement be?" March 23, 1995 specifically would that eligibility

"Representative Ciarlo."

"You will no longer have to be in the top 15% of your...50% of your highschool class."

"Representative Mautino."

"Has the Nurses Association taken a position on the Bill?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"Yes, they are in support of this Bill."

"Representative Mautino."

"The Nurses Association is in support of your first Bill?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"Yes they are."

"Representative Mautino."

"I appreciate that and more importantly, is Milly Hodge in favor of your first Bill?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"Milly and Bill are both very much in favor of this Bill. Thank you, Representative."

"Representative Mautino."

"As a matter of fact, I've talked to them very recently and they have told me that they are in full support of the Bill and for that I stand in support of this measure. Thank you."

"Thank you. Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Hartke. Representative from Washington, Representative Deering, for what purpose do you rise Sir?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will...she indicates she will." 83  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Representative, I noticed in the Bill that if someone defaults on a scholarship provided by the students assistants commission or any governmental agency of the state, you know, they can't be licensed...I believe I understand. How would you default on a scholarship?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"You wouldn't pay it back. You would be defaulting on the scholarship by not paying it back."

"Representative Deering."

"Well, Representative, it's been my understanding through the years that scholarships are tuition labors. Why would I have to pay back a tuition labor?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"I'm sorry, Representative, this is a loan. It's called scholarship, but it is a loan. It's a loan program."

"Representative Deering."

"But in the language on page 2 of the Bill line 16 it specifically says an educational loan or scholarship provided. Now, to me, that tells me that it distinguishes specifically a scholarship over a loan."

"Representative Ciarlo.'

"Excuse me."

"Representative Deering."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker. Okay, she has the answer."

"Representative Ciarlo, are you ready?"

"I'm sorry, Representative, I'm a little new at this so I beg your indulgence. If it's a loan they can default, but that language is I think, only applying to the loan process. If it is a waver in a scholarship for there would be no payback. You are correct. And the language would then not apply."

"Representative Deering." 84  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"So then the language in the Bill that says that if I default in the scholarship... See, I take defaulting on a scholarship as I get awarded a scholarship but because of a family emergency, medical emergency, I can no longer continue my time in school for that year or for that program and I may have to step aside for a couple of years. Now in you opinion, because of a hardship either financial or medical or family, that would not be construed as defaulting on a scholarship. I understand I couldn't get the scholarship in future years if it wasn't available. I would have to maybe come up with the money myself. But that would not keep me from being registered and able to work under the law in the State of Illinois, would it?"

"Representative Ciarlo.'

"When you come into a scholarship there is an agreement and you would have to fulfill those agreements and if you do not, then the language of the scholarship...wait, my mouth is moving, but mine isn't. Does that make sense? You must fulfill your agreement or then take the consequences if you have not done that, Sir."

"Representative Deering."

"Okay, Representative, I understand that and I agree with what you are trying to do here, but I want to distinguish the intent. If I receive a scholarship to go to a nursing school, say I attend school for two months, I get into a major automobile accident and I'm laid up in a hospital for 6 months and cannot complete that scholarship in that year. Will that then effect my ability to be licensed and work in the State of Illinois? Because apparently in your definition I have defaulted on that scholarship."

"Representative Ciarlo.' 85  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"This Bill wants to zero in on those people that intentionally default on a loan. It does not intend to hurt those people in circumstances such as you have mentioned beyond their control. I'm sorry if I'm not clear, but the intent is just to get those people that are defaulting on loans."

"Representative, if you could bring your remarks to a close please."

"Thank you, Representative. That answered my concerns. I appreciate you indulgence in the matter."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Ronen. Representative Ronen, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Will the Sponsor yield."

"She indicates she will."

"Yes, Representative, I just wanted to clarify that portion of you Bill which deals with the money that is deposited into the Nursing Dedicated and Professional Fund. Specifically, what changes are we making there? I'm a little confused."

"Representative Ciarlo."

"Several years ago, the legislature created a program that transfers 10% of the Nurse Dedicated Funds for scholarships. All we are doing is extending that."

"Representative Ronen."

"So, just to clarify, we are not spending any less money we are spending the same amount of money? This is clarifying language. And the Illinois Nurses Association is supportive of this Bill. Is that correct?"

"Representative Ciarlo."

"Yes on both questions."

"For what purpose does the Gentleman from Tazwell rise, Representative Ackerman." 86  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Thank you, question." March 23, 1995 Mr. Speaker. I move the previous

"The Gentleman has moved the previous question. All those in favor shall vote 'aye'; those opposed shall vote 'no'. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On the Motion, there are 67 voting 'yes', 48 voting 'no', 0 voting 'present'. And the Motion is carried. Representative Ciarlo to close."

"Yes. I would just urge a 'yes' vote on this Bill. Thank you."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 1790 pass?' All those in favor shall vote 'aye'; all those opposed shall vote 'no'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. And on this Bill, there are 113 voting 'yes', 1 voting 'no', 0 voting 'present'. And this Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 1792."

"House Bill 1792, a Bill for an Act in relation to criminal law. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Zabrocki."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I bring before you this morning House Bill 1792 which originated with the Illinois State Police. Basically it covers three areas in Bill 1792. Number one, it cleans up some language on page 7 of the Bill where it moves up where it should be. It was improperly placed to begin with. Secondly, as part of the Bill, original Bill, it mentioned about communicating with jurors and witnesses and interfering with them by offering them something. Since that time there's been a case where 87  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day a juror has been tampered with by from that individual this would language. juvenile March 23, 1995 withholding something clean up that type of The third point of the Bill would be in a arrest situation and information. That information is communicated with the State Police; however, there is no provision for giving the final disposition of that case and that's what this Bill would do."

"Is there any Hoffman." discussion?

Representative Hoffman: "Thank you, Speaker, Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Yes, it's my understanding that a portion of this Bill is designed to clean up a supreme court case regarding fencing stings and assuring that the theft statute with regard to fencing is properly drafted. Do you know what that court case is and what it held and why we need this Bill?"

"Representative Zabrocki."

"The case you are referring to is the State vs. 'Zaremba' in January of 1994. It deals..."

"Representative Hoffman."

"It closed off. The timer."

"Representative Zabrocki."

"The case we are referring to is the State vs. 'Zaremba' in January of 1994, and deals with the mental state of the individual."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Well, specifically, with regard to the mental state of the individual, what did it hold? And why do we need this?" Speaker Leitch: "Representative Zabrocki."

"Basically all we are doing is moving those five lines up from where it was before. It doesn't change anything." 88  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Hoffman."

"So, it's my understanding that this is an initiative of the State Attorney's Association, the portion about the theft. However...the juvenile court disposition portion of this Bill as well as the other provision of this Bill are they also initiatives of the States Attorney's Association?"

"Representative Zabrocki."

"They're initiatives of the Illinois State Police."

"Representative Hoffman."

"My understanding, under this Bill, it would require...in addition to the theft provisions, which I think are good by the way. I believe I carried that Bill last year, but with regard to the Circuit Court Clerk report to the State Police, the final disposition of each minor taken into custody for unlawful use of weapons or a forcible felony. Doesn't the Court Clerk already have to do that? To report disposition of juvenile dispositions to the State Police."

"Representative Zabrocki."

"What we're referring here to is the final disposition of the cases. That's the point in question."

"Representative Hoffman."

"But don't they already have to report something to the State Police with regard to minors who are taken into custody for these types of offenses?"

"Representative Zabrocki."

"Yes, they do."

"Representative Hoffman."

"What do they currently have to report? And how is this different?"

"Representative Zabrocki." 89  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"They custody. March 23, 1995 report when the youth is presently taken into What they do not have to report at this point in time is the final disposition of the case. And that's what this Bill addresses."

"Representative Hoffman."

"What is the intent of the State Police? How are they going to utilize these final dispositions? need them?"

"Representative Zabrocki."

Why do they Zabrocki: "For recordkeeping operations and these are closed files."

"Representative Hoffman."

"I would assume that this is going to cost the court clerk... First of all, I guess, would have to probably pay the postage to send this information to the State Police. Although I think it is a very good idea and should have been done and I though it was already done, who is going to pay for this? Isn't this just one more mandate to local governments to insure that they have to spend money in order to keep the State Police informed of these types of occurrences?"

"Representative Zabrocki."

"The cost would be minimal at best. Postage is all being involved."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Well, Representative, how many cases per year are there that would have to be reported. Do you have any estimate? I would assume that it would be in the thousands."

"Representative Zabrocki."

"The information I'm getting from the State Police, several thousand. You're right."

"Representative Hoffman." 90  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Well, several thousand per year at 32¢ postage not to mention the man hours that are involved in this can certainly add up. Is there anything in the State Police budget...I mean everybody over on that side of the aisle contently talks about unfunded mandates, but continually whenever we believe that it might be a good program we pass them on down. I would hope that in the State Police budget, they will be requesting funds in order to give to county clerks to pay for this. I'm for this Bill I'm going to vote for it, but once again just to point out, let's be careful. Now we are talking about thousands and thousands of dollars that we will be costing local clerks. Is there any money in the State Police budget to pay for this? Or will it be one more unfunded mandate?"

"Representative Zabrocki."

"I might point out that they are already sending the information to the State Police. They can simply wait until the end of the disposition and forward it on and there would be no additional cost to what they are already doing."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Representative, it is my understanding from what you said earlier, they have to indicate when the individual is taken into custody. If they indicate that the individual has been taken into custody to the State Police and a disposition comes two or three months later they would have to duplicate their efforts. Isn't that right?"

"Representative Zabrocki."

"The arresting agency is the group that is sending it to them."

"Representative Hoffman, we will give you one more minute to close. If you could bring your remarks to a 91  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day close." March 23, 1995

"Well, I just want to clear this up, Mr. Speaker. That's my point. The arresting agency now sends it to the State Police. Now you're requiring in addition to the arresting agency indicating to the State Police that the individual in custody your requiring the county clerks to send final dispositions. So that is not done already. It is an additional cost to county clerk and I'm asking you, are we just going to mandate this or are we going to fund it to local governments? That's the question. If we are going to stand here...I'm going to vote for it, but you don't see my railing continually on unfunded mandates and passing Bills that attempt to wave unfunded mandates. What I'm saying to you is, is this in the State Polices budget cause it is going to be an additional expense?"

"Representative Zabrocki."

"There already sending us all kinds of other information. This simply can be included into that."

"Are you through, Representative Hoffman? Representative Zabrocki to close."

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is an excellent Bill. I would ask for your support on it."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 1792 pass?' All those in favor shall vote 'aye'; opposed the same. This Bill is on Short Debate. Voting is open. This is final action. All in favor... Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On the Bill, there are 115 voting 'aye', 0 voting 'no', 0 voting 'present'. This Bill, have received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. Mr. Clerk, read House Bill 1807."

"House Bill 1807, a Bill for an Act that amends 92  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 the Civil Administrative Code of Illinois. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Lang, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I recognize that Bill was on Short Debate, but I think it might be helpful to the Body if the Chair would remind the Body that a Bill was on Short Debate as we we were debating it so that members who are not aware of that fact might avail themselves the opportunity to move it from Short Debate. You have that opportunity. I think you should not keep that from the Members and I recommend that you tell us. Thank you very much."

"Thank you for the counsel, Representative. Representative Ciarlo, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Mr. Speaker, point of privilege."

"Perhaps the Chair may deal with this. If this is the... The Chamber would like to recognize the Homewood Flossmore High School AAAAAA State Champion Football. Who are with us today in the Gallery. Welcome to the Chamber, man and coaches. They are coached by John Rein. Coach John Rein. Welcome to the Chamber. Mr. Clerk, please take House Bill 1807 out of the record. Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 1833."

"House Bill #1833, a Bill for an Act that amends the Illinois Financial Institutions Banking Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Mitchell on House Bill 1833. Is the Gentleman in the chamber? He's hard to see back there. Representative Mitchell on House Bill 1833."

"Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I bring before you House Bill 1833. This is an Act to repeal the Illinois 93  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 Financial Institutions Banking Act and amends the Act by replacing everything that was in that Bill. Initially, this Amendment for the Illinois Financial Institutions Banking Act has been revised to permit Illinois banks to fund community development and community reinvestments, called a super bank. The participating Illinois banks were to receive a prorated credit for community development loans made by the bank. However, that revision was contingent upon the federal government and acting legislation or adopting a regulation that permitted this program of shared credit under the Federal Community Reinvestment Act. No such federal action has occurred or likely will occur, making it unlikely that the objective for the IFIBA can be met. No institutions are now chartered under IFIBA. It's now effectively an Act without a purpose. Furthermore, many Illinois financial institutions have indicated a preference that they be responsible for and receive credit for their own direct community development loans and are not in favor of competing with a super bank for community development business opportunities. Based upon the obsolescence of IFIBA and in action of the federal government, the commissioner of banks and trusts companies request and as I request that you support this Amendment. I would be happy to answer any questions concerning this particular Bill."

"The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Parke. For what purpose do you rise? Representative Parke."

"I have a question of the Sponsor."

"He indicates he'll yield."

"Representative, in anywhere in your legislation, does it expand the powers of the banking community?"

"Representative Mitchell." 94  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"No, Representative. In fact, this Bill simply cleans up some language and takes out some language getting rid of completely an obsolete Act called the Illinois Financial Institution Banking Act. It does not extend the powers whatsoever."

"Representative Parke."

"Thank you very much."

"Representative Hoffman, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Will the Sponsor yield?"

"We'll be at ease while the Gentleman completes his lunch. Representative Hoffman."

"You can't start the...you can't start the timer until I'm done eating, can you, Mr. Speaker?"

"No. You'll notice it's not on yet, Representative."

"Thank you."

"Are you finished?"

"No. Yes."

"Was it good?"

"Yes. I'm fine now. You can start the timer now."

"Alright."

"Yes, Representative. I just want for the good of the Body... It's my understanding that what this would do is it would essentially repeal a portion of the Financial Institutions Banking Act that is supposed to encourage community reinvestment in economically depressed areas. Why would we want to repeal a portion of the Illinois...Illinois Financial Institutions Banking Act that does and is set up to achieve such a laudable goal?"

"Representative Mitchell."

"Yes, Representative Hoffman. That is true that that 95  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day was the initial intent of this March 23, 1995 legislation. However, to without the participation of the federal government assist in this matter, most of our local banks have chosen to fund those worthy activities on their own rather than be a part of the super bank where they receive no credit. Therefore, since it's not being used and has been obsolete for quite some time, the banking industry feels that this is an Act that ought to be repealed."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Well, does the banking industry feel that way or does just the commissioner of banks feel that way? It's my understanding that the commissioner of banks is supposed to be implementing this type of legislation in order to encourage economic...reinvestment in economically depressed areas. It is just because they don't want to do it or for some reason don't feel like they want to do it?"

"Representative Mitchell."

"Representative Hoffman, the Illinois Bankers Association of the banking industry does support this legislation and supports the cleanup of this particular Bill. It did pass out of Committee unopposed and unanimously."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Yes, Representative. I know... I remember when the Bill was in Financial Institutions Committee, but I still after reviewing the Amendment, my question is, why is...isn't...why isn't this up and running? I understand your previous answer that local banks may want to do this on its own. But wouldn't we be good or be better off in Illinois or be...be served properly if we were to initiate this type of program to encourage community reinvestment in the economically depressed areas? Instead of bringing more 96  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 state aid in, why don't we have this type of program up and running? Why isn't it up and running? It seems to me that it's a good program with a laudable goal and simply because they want to get rid of it, because it's not doing...doing anything right now doesn't mean it's not good. It should be doing something. Why should...why isn't this up and running, why aren't we doing something with it?"

"Representative Mitchell."

"Representative, that is a good question and I appreciate you asking that. Had the federal government agreed to participate, as they had indicated in the beginning, this program probably would be up and running. However, since no credit is given by the federal government and that portion of that agreement was not kept, most of the local industry have decided they would rather go ahead with local community development projects on their own rather than try to wait for a super bank situation that is not all together."

"Representative Hoffman."

"So the reason is, is that the federal government really hasn't come across with their portion of the...of the deal here in order to move this forward. In that case, I really don't see any problem with getting rid of this. However, Representative, have you...have you read your Amendment totally?"

"Representative Mitchell."

"Well, Representative, that's part of the reason the federal government failed to pass legislation or implement regulations that would permit the IFIBA'S program. However, the other institutions that were in that particular organization have...have decided that they would rather go it alone than try to work within the IFIBA Act." 97  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Hoffman." March 23, 1995

"Well, Representative, I asked... You've looked at your Amendment close. I understand... I'm just concerned because I see some additional things in this Amendment. Are you...specifically, are you aware, in your Amendment, regarding the fee increases in this Bill?"

"Representative Mitchell."

"Thank you, Representative. There are no fee increases in this Bill. At least that I'm aware of, unless somebody go a hold of my Amendment."

"Representative Hoffman, you have 20 seconds left, Sir."

"I guess I must have been mistaken then, Representative, when I was reading the Amendment. Representative, I think that in order not to belabor the point, I think this is a good Bill we can all vote for."

"Representative Mitchell to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just remind everyone that it did pass 17-0 coming out of Committee. It's...it's legislation to clean up a Bill that is on the books and is no longer being used and it's really burdensome to the banking industry and I would suggest a 'yes' vote. Thank you."

"Question is, 'Shall House Bill 1833 pass?' All those in voting...all those in favor shall vote 'aye'; opposed shall vote, 'no'. Voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? On this question, there are...Clerk, take the record. On this question, there are 112 voting 'aye', 0 voting 'no', 1 voting 'present'. This Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. I'd like to bring to the attention of the 98  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 Body that we in Peoria are very, very honored to have with us today for the second consecutive year, the champion Manuel Ram Basketball Team. Guys. Last year the team was with the legendary, Dick VanSyeck, the winningest basketball coach in the history of Illinois. This year his successor, Wayne McLean, a former basketball player for Manuel High School and for Bradley University. In his very first year led the Manuel Rams back to victory again in Champaign. It's wonderful to have you with us. The young men are the guests of Representative Saltsman who is in the Gallery with them. He doesn't have his basketball uniform on this week, though, and Representative Mike Smith and of me. The basketball coaches along with Wayne McLean are Chuck Westenforf, Tim Kinney, and Fred Lee. Gentlemen, would you stand and be recognized? Welcome to the General Assembly, Gentlemen. Members of the team are Cayhill Gayton, Ivan Watson, Jeff Walraven, who by the way, was an Academic All-American this year, Sean Walls, Charles Russell, Willy Williams, Frank Williams, Tim Callwell, Willy Simmons, Sergio McLean, Dwayne Johnson, Willy Coleman, Marcus Griffin, and Daryl Ivory. Gentlemen, you made us proud. Team Manager, Sidney South, Sidney. Cheerleading Sponsor, Val Schifling, and Cheerleaders, Jessica DeMoss, Alicia Durham, Andrea Rocky, Karen Stecker, Daria Wickoff, Kara Backus, Stephanie Donald, Andie Goreman, Allison Halloway, and Ronnie Roos. Welcome, Ladies. And the Pom-Pom Team is with us, Natasha Jackson, the Sponsor's Christy Hubbard, Christina Burton, Shanna Cullen, Jodie Elcorn, Sonia Blonco, Cecilia Elverez, Constance Edwards, Trina Austin, Mya Vance, McKeesha Elbert, Kizzie McKeezy, LaTisha Maye, Angelic Gayles, and the Team Mascot, Tracy Carson. Welcome again, the Manuel 99  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Rams. Thank you. Now it's very fair that I'm in the Chair. What purpose does the Gentleman from Lake rise, Representative Churchill?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before I make my announcement, I just wondered what town were these folks from."

"These young men and ladies are from Peoria, Illinois."

"Peoria, Illinois. Wonderful."

"Basketball capitol of Illinois."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just for the purpose of an announcement, there will be a Rules Committee upon recess. As we go into recess, Rules will meet in the Speaker's conference room. Thank you."

"Our final Bill before recess will be House Bill 2453. Will the Gentleman... Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 2453."

"House Bill #2453, a Bill for an Act that amends the Unified Code of Corrections. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Rutherford, House Bill 2453."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Twenty-five forty-three would amend the Unified Code of Corrections to provide that if a defendant is ordered to pay restitution and that defendant fails to pay that restitution in a manner that is prescibed by the court, then the court shall enter and order directing the sheriff to seize any real or personal property of that defendant to the extent necessary to satisfy that restitution. Presently, the law allows the court to have discretion. This would make it mandatory."

"Is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Dart." 100  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Initially, I want to move to have this taken off Short Debate and I'm joined by the appropriate number of my colleagues."

"So indicated."

"Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, what was the impetus behind this Bill?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It came through discussion with our staff as well as discussions through various associations."

"Representative Dart."

"Can you narrow it down a little bit as far as what associations?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I personally have had discussions on this with the Sheriff's Association of Illinois."

"Representative Dart."

"Were the probation departments or the clerks, were they brought into this discussion at all or the court system for that matter?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Not through any of intent of omission; I did not personally ask them about it. I am carrying some of the clerks association's legislation. They didn't broach the matter to me of having any concern."

"Representative Dart."

"As far as the courts go, this would dramatically change how the courts operate right now and we're mandating them to do this now. It's going to be done through the orders. Now, do we have an outside idea of how many cases that this 101  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day is going to impact?"

"Representative Rutherford. If we could have a little quiet, please. The Gentleman's trying to respond."

"I apologize, Representative Dart. Could you repeat that?"

"Thank you. This would have a dramatic impact on the courts if we were to do this. Is there a number, even if it's a rough number, of how many cases this would impact?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Representative Dart. I do not have that, but I do have the Fiscal Note that was filed by the Administrative Office of the Illinois Courts which specifically...the last sentence says, based on a review of this Bill, it's anticipated that the fiscal impact in the Judicial branch will be minimal."

"Representative Dart."

"Would this now require the cases then to come back in, I mean it would require cases to come back into the system for the court to make these subsequent orders, SO there would be additional cases or additional court time that would be expended because of the cases to be brought back in?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"That could be the case, but again as I read by the specific Judicial impact note that the Administrative Office of the Illinois Courts says that they anticipate it to be a very minimal impact."

"Representative Dart."

"Are there any statistics that we have on how many cases in which the courts order restitution?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"I do not have any." 102  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Dart."

"Do you have any statistics on how often restitution orders are not fulfilled and that the defendant basically doesn't pay?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"I do not have any, but opinion is if it's one, it's too many."

"Representative Dart."

"Yeah, I mean, I think everyone's in agreement with that. I mean, there's no reason why the victim should be victimized a second time. However, my concern is just trying to attempt to get a handle on the magnitude of what we're dealing here, because we're changing right now what is a permissive order which allows the court in its discretion to decide whether or not they will require the sheriff to seize someone's property to satisfy restitution order which makes imminent sense because the court is the person in the best position to judge whether or not that's the appropriate thing to do or not. What this is doing is it's tying the hands of the court and saying, you must do that, which is fine, but should have a handle on how many cases this is going to be impacting. Now what if the court finds that the defendant in this case does not have the means to satisfy the restitution order but may have a house that they live in and it has a family of say, five or six children who live in that house, are they going to be forced to sell that house to satisfy restitution order?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"To highlight again what the Bill says, it says it would have to be done in a manner prescibed by the court so I would assume that if the defendant had some type of a extenuating circumstance, they make that case to the court. 103  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 At that point then, the court would be able to amend whatever its prescription is."

"Representative Dart."

"So then just for point of clarification, though we're requiring the court to force that restitution be satisfied, we're also saying it's in a sense, it is permissive if the court finds otherwise?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"No, we're saying is that the court does have a procedure to go through to identify that restitution and set the manner that that should be done. If the defendant fails to meet that which is set by the court, then the sheriff is ordered to go out and seize those real or personal properties to meet that restitution."

"Representative Dart, I'll give you one more minute if you could bring your questioning to a close, please."

"Thank you. Just for a minute. As I said, though, my concern is this. When a court... It has been my experience, when a court will set a case down, set the restitution which as I said everyone is in favor of the restitution, there's no two ways about it, but they set it down, they'll take in account different factors. But one of the things they had not been taking into account is the fact that if you aren't paying that, you are going to be forced to sell off things. As I say, it makes sense, but I want to make sure that we aren't handcuffing the courts here by saying that you are mandated. You're going to force the defendant to sell off his car which may be his only form of transportation to a job, may have to be forced to sell off something that he might be needing for the support of his children. He won't anticipate that when he 104  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 makes the restitution order, but then all of a sudden when it isn't paid, without the court ever getting a chance to see it again, those things are going to to have to be sold at the sheriff's bequest to fulfill this."

"Representative Rutherford. Was that a question, Representative Dart? Representative Rutherford."

"Well, as I understand it, the court does have the comes back opportunity to review this. If the defendant and makes a case, then of course, the court can go through and review what the procedure for restitution would be."

"The Representative from Fulton, Representative Smith. For what purpose do you rise, Sir?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I yield my time to Representative Lang."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Thank you. Representative, I want to make sure I understand something here. This would require an order directing the sheriff to seize property. What property?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Personal or real."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, how much? So if there's a $1000 due and owing that's defaulted on the restitution that's supposed to be paid, who is going to determine how much real or personal property, what real or personal property should be taken from the party in question?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"I'll just read directly out of the Bill because it says there, any real or personal property of the defendant to the extent necessary to satisfy the restitution order." 105  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Lang." March 23, 1995

"Well, are we going to train these personnel on how to determine the value of things? What if they take a piece of jewelry they think is worth a $1000, it turns out to be worth $20,000 and the person only owed $500? What if they took a person's car under those circumstances? How are we to determine the value and how are these sheriffs to determine the value before they seize the property?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Well, this process is nothing new to the courts nor to the sheriffs. This type of activity in well known to them so they do have experience in this. It's anticipated that they would take those that are easily accessible and would meet that which meets the requirement within the restitution order."

"Representative Lang."

"What protection is in this Bill for these folks to make sure more property is not taken than necessary, and what do you have in the Bill to pay back these folks if they've overreached in taking this property?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"The protection is the court system."

"Representative Lang."

"But that's exactly the point, Representative. Instead of having a discretionary situation here with the court, So you've taken the discretion you've made it mandatory. away from the courts to deal with this situation. You've taken the discretion away from the courts to determine what, if any property should be taken and so what you want to do is leave it in the hands of the sheriff who in most cases will make a good choice, but often times doesn't know the value of a piece of property, real or personal. 106  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Suppose a $1000 is due and owed and there's a junker car out there, the sheriff thinks it's a junker car, but it's worth 3 or $4000. What happens then? Are we now going to be able to ...are we now going to keep this person from going to work to pay the restitution that they owe because we've taken their car from them?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Well, again, the manner and the amount for the restitution is still resting with the courts. The part that is now being directed is the fact that the sheriff will seize that real or personal property if the defendant fails to meet that restitution as prescibed by the court."

"Representative Lang."

"Representative, we all want these folks to pay their restitution and we all agree that you have a good Bill in terms of the idea to make them pay their restitution. My concern is about someone overreaching. We have laws in this state and in this country about taking somebody's property without due process. Now, due process would be taking property that valued the same amount as the restitution that was owed and taking that. That would be due process. My concern is about an overreaching sheriff. A sheriff who's too lazy to figure out that he's got $10,000 worth of property when there's only a $1000 due. A sheriff that doesn't know. A sheriff that's not diligent. We have to protect the people paying restitution to the extent that they deserve protection and how do you do that through this Bill?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"I appreciate the Representative's comment. He is correct and accurate in his observations, though. But again if I may, this will make it mandatory that the 107  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 sheriff seize real or personal property to meet the extent necessary to satisfy the restitution order. If it is in excess to that am amount for the restitution order, the defendant would have recourse thru the courts."

"Representative Lang."

"Sir, that would make your Bill unconstitutional. To take somebody's property without due process of law and make them go back to the court to get their own property back is unconstitutional, Sir. What do you have to say about that problem?"

"Representative Rutherford, what do you have to say about that problem?"

"Well, then the current Act would be unconstitutional because that is already a permissive opportunity, what we are saying here today is the sheriff will be obligated to go out and seize that personal and real property when the ... "

"Representative Rutherford."

"What we're saying is that the sheriff will go out there and seize that real and personal property when the defendant has not gone and met their obligation to the people that have been offended and violated in society to be able to have that paid back to them. Representative, I think it is absolutely, absolutely the due process for this General Assembly to say, if you have been injured and hurt and you have not received your funds that have been ordered by the courts, then the law enforcement process in this state will go out and get that money."

"Representative Lang, we're going to to give you one more minute if you could please bring your questioning to a close."

"Sir, that was Mr. Smith's five minutes. Now I have my 108  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day five minutes. Thank you very much." March 23, 1995

"You were not recognized for that, Sir. You have one more minute."

"I was not recognized for my own five minutes. I was only recognized for somebody else's five minutes. Is that what you're telling me?"

"Please, proceed, Sir."

"Thank you. Sir, I agree with you that we need to get the money, but I think that you're not reading your own Bill carefully enough and by taking discretion away from the court, you now leave open the opportunity that overzealous sheriffs will overreach. Let me just ask you one quick question. There were two Amendments filed in Committee on this Bill, truth in sentencing and more police on the street. You resisted those Amendments. Can you tell us why?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I absolutely do not resist the concept at all. This isn't the appropriate vehicle to bring into the Body."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, I don't know whether you support ..."

"Please bring your remarks to a close, Representative."

"Thank you. I don't know why you support these things. You didn't let them go on your Bill. If you support those measures and we're pleased to hear you do, Sir, you should have let them go on your Bill so we could move this process along. Certainly, as important as your restitution measure is, putting more police on the street for our protection and all those other matters are much more important than this Bill, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I would ask for my five 109  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day minutes now." March 23, 1995

"The next light up is the Gentleman from Tazewell, Representative Ackerman. For what purpose do you rise, Sir?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"The previous question has been put. All those in favor shall vote 'aye'; opposed shall vote 'nay', and the voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On the Motion, there are 64 voting 'aye', 51 voting 'nay', 0 voting 'present', and the Motion is passed. Representative Rutherford to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am somewhat chagrin at some of the conversation that's been going around the Floor in this type of a piece of legislation. Obviously, we need to be looking at the victims of crime. We need to look at ways to be sure that when that the courts say that they have the rights to get some of their resources back, that that does happen. This Bill would require the sheriff to go out and seize those properties that are necessary meet that restitution order. I would appreciate a favorable Roll Call." to

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 2453 pass?' All those in favor shall vote 'aye'; all those opposed shall vote 'no'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Take the Roll, Mr. Clerk. On this Motion, there are 110 voting 'aye', 0 voting 'no', 2 voting 'present'. This Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. We have two announcements. One, the Manuel Team upon recess 110  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 will be on the Floor for pictures and the second announcement would be that we shall stand in recess until the hour of 3:00. We are in recess. Thank you."

"The House will come to order. If we could have all unauthorized personnel to attire from the Chamber. I see Representative Hartke is all ready to go. Again, could we have all unauthorized personnel please leave the Chamber so we can do our business? The House will come to order. We will now proceed to the order of Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, before we go to the order of Third Reading, Mr. Clerk, are there any reports?"

"Committee reports. Committee reports from Representative Churchill, Chairman, Committee on Rules to which the following Bills were referred. Action taken on March 23rd, 1995. Report same back final recommendation. Due approved for consideration, Floor Amendment #2 to House Bill 398 and Floor Amendment #5 to House Bill 2777 reported to the Floor."

"We'll now proceed to the order for House Bills - Third Reading. Representative Currie."

"Thank you, Speaker. I rise with a parliamentary inquiry. Yesterday, we filed discharge motions on Amendments with respect to 42 House Bills. That was done yesterday morning and the Motions were filed at the Well here on this Floor, not in the Clerk's office. The motions did not appear on today's Calendar and my inquiry is where are those motions? When will we see them? When will they have the opportunity to be put before this Body and come to a vote?"

"Representative Currie, as you may recall, both the person in the Chair who is Representative Kubik and you were in the Rules Committee. You made that inquiry in the 111  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 Rules Committee. The Chairman of the Rules Committee, Representative Churchill, indicated that he would look into the matter and discuss it with you and I think that that is the appropriate form for that discussion and the Gentleman will respond to you in the Rules Committee. Mr. Clerk, please call House Bill 2227. Representative Klingler. Representative Klingler."

"House Bill #2227. House Bill #2227, a Bill for an Act concerning foster care. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Klingler."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. House Bill 2227 is a joint product of the Department of Children and Family Services and the task force on foster parents. This foster...this task force group met and worked on the concerns of foster parents and the concerns that they were being left out of the process and being part of the total child welfare team. In December, this task force submitted recommendations to the agency and in January, these were transmitted in final form to Governor Edgar. And this House Bill 2227 contains the complete recommendations of the task force. It provides a section for foster parents' rights, responsibilities, a firm time line for implementation. It also establishes a statewide advisory council in which foster parents are...are the primary component of this advisory council. I'd be glad to answer questions."

"The Lady has moved passage of House Bill 2227. Is there any discussion? The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Fulton, Representative Smith."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to yield my time to Representative Dart."

"Representative, the next person who is on the 112  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE list to be called is Representative Dart. Dart." March 23, 1995

Representative Dart: "Thank you. Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Lady indicates she'll yield."

"Well, Representative, I'm glad that... We passed a Bill the other day on deceptive practice and theft. I'm glad that wasn't in law by...signed by the Governor because this might come under the heading of it. This was an initiative I'd worked on for quite some time as you're well aware of. And a lot of DCFS stated was not true, absolutely not true, we know that. It was a very disingenuous way to make sure that a Bill that I'd worked on for about a year and half was no longer going to have my name on it. What state is this...what state is this Act modeled under...from?"

"Representative Klingler."

"Representative, Mr. Chair, I'm having a little trouble hearing. It's...there...could we have it quiet?"

"The noise level in the chamber is very, very high. Could we have the caucuses that are taking place in the chamber stop, please? Will the Members be in their chairs? The debate...the noise level is very high. Representative Dart, would you please restate the question so that Representative Klingler might be able to respond?"

"Sure. What state is this Act modeled after?"

"Representative Klingler."

"Representative Dart, as you know in the last General Assembly, you had a Bill which established the task force on parents' rights, and this task force was set up and there were extensive meetings which you participated and also, Representative Lindner who is here also as a Co-Sponsor of the Bill. This Bill, House Bill 2227, comprises the complete recommendations of that task force. 113  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day Both the Foster Parents' Bill of Rights and Responsibilities and in addition, the Statewide Advisory Council."

"Representative Dart."

"What state?"

"Representative Klingler."

"As I just said, this Bill arose from Illinois."

"Representative Dart."

"Wrong. No. This was modeled after a statute in the State of Colorado. I had done some work with some individuals from that state in which we pulled this from. Now, this...the provisions of the Bill, do they deal with all foster parents?"

"Representative Klingler."

"The Foster Parents' Bill of Rights deals with all foster parents in Illinois, correct."

"Representative Dart."

"That's wrong, too. My reading of the Bill, after you put the definition in into it, which was something that wasn't in the original one, it excludes relative foster parents in the present form that it is now which is a mistake. Why are we excluding the relatives from this Bill? They are the people that we are giving more and more of the duties for watching these children. Why are we not requiring them to take on the responsibilities and get the rights?"

"Representative Klingler."

"Representative Dart, the intent of this Bill, as you know, is to look at foster parents who are licensed and work through DCFS. I'm certainly aware that foster care provided by relatives is a great concern. And in fact, many of the problems that have occurred in the State of Illinois, has arisen when we have relative foster care that 114  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 have not gone through the same screening and licensing procedures. This is also an issue that needs to be addressed. This...in the future we will have relatives that will be licensed by DCFS."

"Representative Dart."

"Back to my question. Why do we not have relatives in here? We as a state, have turned our back on these kids constantly and now we are dumping them in with the relatives, giving them less and less money. Why are we not bringing them in on this? These are the people we need in this Bill. They are the ones that are escalating much more so than the other ones. Why not?"

"Representative Klingler."

"As I stated, House Bill 2227, contains the complete recommendations of the task force. And Representative Lindner, who is a Co-Sponsor, will also address those concerns. I would add that the relative foster care is something that will be addressed and is a budgeted item for DCFS and is certainly very important."

"Representative Dart. Representative Dart, there are about 24 seconds left."

"Yes. Well, I think I'm on Representative Smith's time, I'd like to have my time as well. How will these rights be enforced?"

"Representative Klingler."

"Representative, there are two provisions which address this issue. The implementation provision provides that regional plans shall be submitted for each region of DCFS. And there is a deadline in this provision of January 1, 1996 for the first plan to be submitted. And thereafter, they need to be submitted annually. In addition, these plans are to be reviewed and monitored and followed and 115  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 approved by the department's statewide foster care advisory council. I think what's important is that the two sections of this Bill do not stand alone. The Foster Parents' Bill of Rights and the responsibilities is enforced and monitored by the statewide advisory council."

"Representative Dart."

"My question though is, is it after DCFS does there number on the foster parents like they continue to do it and they are abused, how will an individual foster parent have their rights upheld? How will they do that? When their rights are being violated, how will they have their rights upheld?"

"Representative Klingler. Ladies and Gentlemen, we're having a little difficulty hearing with the noise level. Could we please reduce the noise level SO we can carry on the debate. Representative Klingler."

"Representative Dart, the statewide foster care advisory council is comprised of six representatives, six foster parents from Cook County and it includes the president of the Cook County Foster Parent Association. In addition, the president of the Illinois Foster Parent Association is a permanent member. In addition, two foster parents from the department's welfare advisory Committee are on the Committee in addition to Representatives from each of the other districts. This council, which is created by statute, is clearly to be certain that the views and the concerns of foster parents are met in the State of Illinois, both in Cook County and throughout the state."

"Representative Dart."

"Thank you. No, that's not the answer. The answer is, is that Bill was introduced originally by me a year ago. It had provisions so that a foster parent could do like 116  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 anybody else who's an agreed party and that is, they would be able to go into a court and try to get their rights upheld. That provision is not in this Bill. We had an Amendment which was filed to add that. Like the rest of our Amendments, they did not get called. So in other words, it's like getting water, but you don't have the glass to drink out of it because you can't use it. There is a right there, but you cannot sue. To the Bill, Mr. Speaker." "Proceed."

"This is yet another example of the garbage and the games at DCFS. DCFS is the most political department that we have under this administration. They have done nothing, nothing, nothing. They wait until we get another child who is abused in the system, another child who gets murdered, then they will do something. What we did in regards to this Bill, this was a Bill that I proposed a year and a half ago. I had it attached to the Baby Richard Bill and the Governor and the Governor's office came in there and said, no go, we don't want Foster Parents' Bill of Rights. They said no, those were their words. Anybody that tells you contrary is a liar. That's what they said. They did not want those things in. Then we had to do the little task force and put that together. We were supposed to then have a Bill drafted which I then sent to the director for his okay, which he okayed. But then all of a sudden it appears in Committee with low and behold with my name on it. And then all of these concerned people here, when I present my Bill, what do they do? They all vote 'present' on it. And why is that? Because it was my Bill. Was it a little bit different than Representative Klingler's? Yes, it was a little bit different. Could it have been amended? 117  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Sure, it could of. But we all know what happened. DCFS hung in the back of the room, like they usually do, hiding out in the back and waiting and waiting. This was yet another example of DCFS doing nothing. And if this Representative and the other side of the aisle was SO excited about helping out the children and helping out the foster parents. Why, why, why did we have the cowardice in the Judiciary Committee which Representative Klingler was on. When I proposed Bills, dealing with DCFS, had children come down here waiting 12 hours and they adjourn the meeting, so they can't hear my Bill. That's what the cowards in the Judiciary Committee did. They did that because they do not care about children and they do not care about the foster parents."

"Mr. Doorkeeper, will you please close the doors? And I am going to ask the people to retire to the rear of the chamber. I want all staff at the rear of the chamber. We seem to have a very difficult time reducing the noise level in the chamber. So let us... The Members will be in their chairs and let's reduce the noise level so we can continue to debate. Further discussion. The Gentleman from St. Clair, Representative Hoffman."

"Yes. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"She indicates she will."

"Representative, are you aware of the task force of the subcommittee that was formed last year that Representative Dart and I were Co-Chairman of in which Representative Cross and Representative Biggert and Representative Flowers served on, are you aware of that task force?"

"Representative Klingler."

"Yes, I am."

"Representative Hoffman." 118  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Representative, did you see the report that was generated as a result of that task force?"

"Representative Klingler."

"I saw the summary, yes."

"Representative Hoffman."

"So you were aware that in that report, one of the major findings and the major issues, that we felt at that time needed to be addressed was the issue of foster parents' rights."

"Representative Klingler."

"That's correct."

"Representative Hoffman."

"And you also were aware that previously, Representative Dart had Bills that would have created the Foster Parents' Bill of Rights and I believe I had a Bill also that would have done that, is that correct?"

"Representative Klingler."

"Yes, Representative Hoffman. I would like to address that issue. There are some very substantial differences between a Bill which Representative Dart had filed and the Bill which is the Agreed Bill. I would emphasize this, this is the Agreed Bill between the foster parents who are part of this task force and the Department of Children and Family Services. One of the major differences is, first of all, there is no time line for implementation in Representative Dart's Bill. And in addition, the very mechanism of enforcement and monitoring, namely the statewide advisory council, was omitted from Representative Dart's Bill. In fact, the two parts are inextricably interwoven. You really cannot have one part in effect without the other. I think it's very important that both be involved." 119  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Hoffman."

"Well, Representative, I think March 23, 1995 that the major difference, I mean I have the two Bills in front of me. House Bill 2227 is your Bill. House Bill 888 is Representative Dart's Bill. I think the only difference is that the task force that you create. In other words, you're creating another bureaucracy that Representative Dart's Bill wouldn't do. Is that correct?'

"Representative Klingler."

"Representative, this Bill with the statewide advisory council, in fact, gives teeth and real opportunity for the foster care parents to enforce their rights. Simply setting out a Bill of Rights without such a statutorily created advisory council would do no good. This is what the foster parents wanted. As you should be well aware, there was a Foster Care Committee before that was simply advisory, that was not created by statute. This fills that gap. I also would add, that almost a month ago when the department asked me to represent...to carry this Bill, that I ask Representative Dart if he would also Co-Sponsor this with me because...and he has declined. I would certainly continue to welcome him on this. But I maintain that it's important to have both parts of this, the statutorily created statewide advisory council, as well as the Foster Parents' Bill of Rights."

"Representative Hoffman."

"So, you admit that there...that this does create an additional advisory council or task force that wasn't here prior to this...prior to this Bill, is that right?"

"Representative Klingler."

"Prior to this Bill, there was an Advisory Committee. And the foster parents felt very frustrated that their 120  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 concerns were not being fully heard by the department and that they in fact were in the best position to understand the best interests of the children. It was agreed through this task force that there had to be a statutorily created council and that is what this Bill does in..."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Well, Representative, I serve on the Subcommittee that went throughout the state, listened to foster parents' concerns. They were for Representative Dart's Bill, they were for the Bill I introduced and they may also be for your Bill, that may very well be the case. But they were not against, not creating further bureaucracy. And just to honor you, like we honored Representative Meyer last night, this now is the fifth new bureaucracy that you guys are creating on that side of the aisle. We're bringing over another award for you, Representative. We're happy to accept...you'll accept that award for creating another bureaucracy. You've stolen the idea, you're creating more bureaucracy. We're going to vote for this because foster parents deserve it. But let's be honest, let's quit stealing ideas, let's quit taking credit for people and putting out more press releases. He's worked on this for years..."

"Further discussion. The Lady from Cook, Representative Mulligan."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill."

"Please, proceed."

"I think this is an excellent Bill and I certainly think its been worked on by people on both sides of the aisle with a great deal of difficulty. The task force that one of the Representatives spoke of was attended by Members on our side of the aisle more times than he chose to 121  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day attend. On March 23, 1995 the Subcommittee that he talks about, both Members on both sides went across the state and listened. But when it came time for the report to be filed, it was not given to our side until after the press conference was called. Personally, I think this is a wonderful Bill and I think when the other side gets up and talks about children, perhaps they ought to talk about whether it's a partisan like of children or whether it's a universal care that we have for children. I think that there are many of us on this side, who have children, who are interested, who have people in our district that we work with and foster care who are very interested in such a Bill and have talked to people like this. I'm tired of hearing the partisan bologna about how much we care for children. Is it who's name is on Bill or is it who's actually going to get the work done and get it done? If you're on a Subcommittee and you...and you don't give a article or a copy of the report to both sides, who served on that Committee, prior to a press conference, how much do you really care about that being carried out? And were they not in power for two years when he had an opportunity to take care of that issue? Is it only an issue that he has to go at or can all of us work on it to try and make things better for children? This is partisan bologna and I'm tired of it. This is a good Bill and we all ought to support it. He had plenty of opportunity to appear in a task force that he created. He couldn't even show up to participate. I would like to see all of us get behind this Bill and back it."

"Representative Dart. Representative Dart, for what reason are you seeking recognition?"

"A point...a point of personal privilege. My name was used in debate." 122  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"State your point."

"The previous Speaker lied. That was an outright lie, you know it, you know it was a lie. I was at the meeting, I showed up at one and then DCFS conveniently forgot to remind me and tell me where the second one was at. You know that, too. And as far as the task force report, not one of your Members on it cared to show up to help write it. They had full access to write it, not one of them showed up to do it. I suggest you get your facts straight before you going shooting your mouth off like that."

"Representative Mulligan, for what purpose are you seeking recognition?"

"I never mentioned any Representative's name in this debate. And quite frankly, if the former Representative who just spoke, feels that the shoe fits, then let him wear it. But I never mentioned his name."

"The Gentleman from Tazewell, Representative Ackerman. For what reason do you arise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"The question is, 'Whether the main question should be put?' All those in favor will vote 'aye'; all those opposed will vote 'no'. The voting is now open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On this Motion, there are 64 voting 'aye'; 52 voting 'no' and 0 voting 'present'. The Motion is adopted. Representative Klingler to close."

"Members of the General Assembly, this is a very important Bill. It concerns the needs and the rights of children and it concerns the rights of foster parents who care for those children in situations of abuse and neglect. 123  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 This Bill is one that was agreed to and was requested by the Foster Parents Association. They will be working closely with the Department of Children and Family Services. I think this is good for children, it's good for foster parents and I ask your support."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 2227 pass?' Those in favor of the Bill will vote 'aye'; those opposed will vote 'no'. The voting is now open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On this question, there are 116 Members voting 'aye'; 0 voting 'no' and 0 voting 'present'. This Bill, having received the Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. Representative Brunsvold, for what reason do you rise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to request a Democratic Conference immediately. The issues that have come up here on the Floor dealing with children are very important to this side of the aisle and we have definite questions we need answered. We'd like to discuss those in conference, to ask the Chair that we can expand the time we need to make sure that these Bills are in proper form before we advance them, pass them out of here and send them to the Senate, So, we would ask for an immediate conference in Room 118."

"Representative Brunsvold, how much time?"

"I don't know. We'll start with an hour and we'll see what happens."

"Representative Brunsvold requests the Democrats... Okay, the Democrats will caucus in Room 118. Representative Brunsvold, we are going to say 45 minutes, 45 minutes, and then... The House is now in recess and will reconvene at 4:45. The House shall come to order. We 124  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 understand from Representative Turner, the Democrats are here and ready to work. The order of Third Reading. House Bill 2245, Representative O'Connor. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill #2245, a Bill for an Act in relation to transfer of certain crime lab functions. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Currie, for what reason do you rise?"

"Thank you, Speaker. Earlier, I raised a parliamentary inquiry. It was a legitimate parliamentary inquiry. It had to do with 42 motions filed yesterday with the Clerk at the Well on this Floor in this Chamber, motions which have not appeared on the Calendar. My question to the Chair is, where are those motions? When will we see them? The Chair responded that the Majority leader said he'd get back to me. Well clearly, my asking the Majority leader was a mistake. He clearly hasn't a clue where those motions are. I'm directing my inquiry to this Chair and I'd like it if the real Speaker were here to answer the question, where are our motions? When will they be on the Calendar and when can we have our vote?"

"Mr. Clerk, Mr. Clerk, would you tell us where those motions are? Are we ready? Representative Currie, just one moment. One moment. Mr. Clerk, are there any motions?"

"We have several motions to discharge Committee, the standing Committees and we have several motions discharged to Rules Committee."

"Mr. Clerk, the motion to discharge Rules Committee will be read during dinner and they will be then placed on the Calendar. The motions to discharge 125  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Committees are out of order because those Bills are now in the Rules Committee and that is the ruling of the Chair. Representative Currie, Representative Currie, for what reason do you ..."

"Yes, I appreciate your at least know where the motions are. I'm glad they aren't lost somewhere in the...but under what rule is it written that because a Bill is in Rules Committee a motion to discharge the Rules Committee on an Amendment is therefore not in order? And what would be your advice to us about how we might give those motions new life? Can you tell me where in the Rules I'll find the rule you just mentioned? And besides, we want to know what time is dinner?"

"Representative Currie. Representative Currie, before we... I made two statements. The first statement was that those motions that are on the Calendar to...strike that. Those motions that are at the Well to discharge Rules will be read during dinner, okay. Those motions to discharge standing Committees are out of order under House Rule 3-9A. Representative Currie, the Lady from Cook, Representative Currie."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate your reiteration because I had not understood you accurately the first time and we certainly are delighted that we will be hearing our most recent batch of motions read during dinner and we would agree that things that were in standing Committee at the time of deadline are under the Rules, properly re-referred to the Rules Committee. So we appreciate your courtesy in finally responding to my parliamentary inquiry of earlier in the day and someone of the Members over here would like to know, because they're interested in hearing the motions read, they want to know what time is dinner." 126  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Well, for the Membership, I can March 23, 1995 tell you that dinner's at 6:30. Now we will have to wait until the Speaker let's me know what we're serving. In any event, dinner will be at 6:30. House Bills - Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 2245."

"House Bill #2245 has been read a third time."

"Representative Lang, for what reason do you rise?"

"Thank you for acknowledging me, Mr. Speaker. For a parliamentary inquiry."

"State your point."

"I believe this Bill is improperly on Third Reading, Sir. There was a Fiscal Note requested that has not been filed, Sir."

"Mr. Clerk, are any notes requested on this Bill? Representative Lang, we are going to review that note. At the moment, we're going to take that Bill out of the record and review that note. House Bills - Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, House Bill #41. Mr. Clerk, please read the Bill."

"House Bill #41, a Bill for an Act that amends the Public Utilities Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Ackerman, the Gentleman from Tazewell."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 41 allows utilities in the State of Illinois to take part in the national auction which was established by the federal government for credits in the Federal Clean Air Act. At present, they are eligible to take part in this auction, but due to timing and having to get permission from the Commerce Commission, they are never able to get this done in time to take part. So since there 127  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 is this auction, I think it's only fair that our utilities are able to take part in the auction and I would ask for a favorable vote on this issue."

"The Gentleman has moved for the passage of House Bill 41. On that issue, is there any discussion? The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Schakowsky."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I'd like to take this Bill off of short debate and I am joined by a requisite number of Members to do so."

"It looks like you are. It is off short debate. Do you have some questions?"

"Thank you, and will the Sponsor yield for some questions?"

"The Sponsor indicates he will yield."

"Could you explain to me, Representative Ackerman, why we need to pass this legislation?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"To allow our utilities in Illinois to participate in this federal auction for credits."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Unless we pass this legislation, Illinois utilities would not be permitted to participate?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"They can participate, but due to timing, they have to get Commerce Commission approval first and by the time they have received the announcement of the auction and gotten approval, the auction is already over. So, this allows them to get into the auction without the approval of the Commerce Commission and joined with other states who do participate in the auction."

"Representative Schakowsky." 128  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Well, has the lack of this legislation caused a problem for Illinois utilities and if so, what has been the result of that?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Yes, this causes a problem for Illinois utilities because they have not been able to participate in the auction. This increases probably rates for consumers, as an end result."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Is this a piece of legislation that was brought to you, I mean, where is the Illinois Commerce Commission and what is their position on this legislation?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"They are in support of this legislation."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Okay, my analysis here indicated that they were neutral. I was just curious why, but you're saying now, and I have no reason not to believe you, that the Commerce Commission is supporting this legislation?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"That is my information, that they are in support of the legislation."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Was there any particular reason in terms of consumer protection, why it's useful for the utilities to go before... Was there any public interest served, put it that way, by having the utility companies go before the ICC for this hearing process? Was there an environmental reason or a rate reason or anything like that?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"If they are unable to participate in this auction, it's going to increase rates because they would have to 129  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day install scrubbers. So, it is consumers." to

"Representative Schakowsky." March 23, 1995 the benefit of the

"Will this legislation have any impact on the environmental quality in Illinois?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"No, because they have to meet the emission standards."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Has the Citizens Utility Board taken any position on this Bill?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Not that I'm aware of, no."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Let me ask you also, have any of the environmental organizations, the Illinois Environmental Council, or any of those taken a position on the Bill?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I'm not aware of any objections to this Bill. They still have to meet the emissions standards so there should be no objection from the environmental groups."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Then who brought this Bill to you, Representative, and who are the major proponents of this legislation?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"The utilities brought this Bill to me because they all would like the ability to take part in this auction."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"So, to the Bill, Mr. Speaker. It sounds to me that if Illinois does not pass this legislation, then our public utilities will not be able to participate in a program that it sounds like will be beneficial to the State of Illinois, it not harmful in any way to the consumers, will benefit 130  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 them in the long run because of lower utility rates. So this sounds like a Bill that I certainly can support. Thank you, Representative."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Madison, Representative Davis."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to yield my time to Representative Lang."

"Representative Lang isn't seeking recognition. Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Representative... ill the Sponsor yield?"

"The Sponsor indicates he'll yield."

"Thank you. Representative, why do we want to do this?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Well, I think I gave a pretty full explanation to the previous questioner, but the utilities are unable to take part in this federal auction unless we do this."

"Representative Lang."

"But why did the law require that they get Commerce Commission approval in the first place? Why didn't we exempt it before this?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"This was part of a law that was passed before the federal government established these auctions."

"Representative Lang."

"I'm sorry, I did not hear the answer. Could we ask the Sponsor to repeat it?"

"Representative Ackerman, could you repeat the answer for Representative Lang?"

"Yes. This was a law that was passed before the federal government established these auctions and credits."

"Representative Lang." 131  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995

"And when did the federal government establish those auctions?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Last year was the first time they had an auction."

"Representative Lang."

"So why didn't we do this last year?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I have no idea, however, I was unaware of it last year."

"Representative Lang."

"Were you the Minority spokesperson on the Public Utilities Committee last year?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Yes, I was."

"Representative Lang."

"So, I'm a little befuddled, Representative, as to why you wouldn't know about this last year so that you could have done this previously."

"Representative Ackerman."

"I've been informed that the auctions were first held in the summertime SO we would not have known last year during Committee hearings."

"Representative Lang."

"So, I guess that would explain why this has such a low Bill number. Immediately upon the beginning of the Session, you felt you should do this and you did it right away. Huh?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I think that's a pretty good explanation."

"Representative Lang."

"Representative, were there any opponent witness slips to this in Committee?" 132  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Representative Ackerman."

"No, there were not."

"Representative Lang."

"Were there any proponent witness slips to this in Committee?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I believe there was. I believe the Commission and the utilities filed proponent slips."

"Representative Lang."

"Which utilities?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Illinois Power was one. I'm not sure if all of them filed or not."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, first you said that they all filed, then you said you're not sure, but you said Illinois Power has filed, but is there anyone else who filed?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I did not say they all filed. I said they all had talked to me about it and were in support of it."

"Representative Lang."

"So, did you talk to every utility in Illinois? Are they all in favor of this Bill?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"All that I talked to were in favor of this Bill."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, who did you talk to?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I'm not sure if my memory is that good, Representative Lang, but I did talk to Cilco and CIPS and Illinois Power. I may have talked to others, also."

"Representative Lang." 133  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"So it's fair to say you talked to some, but you don't remember who they are, but you do remember Illinois Power as being the only one that you remember."

"Representative Ackerman."

"I think I already answered that, but I did say Illinois Power is the only slip I recall being filed. There may have been others. If you would like us to check, I can do that."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, I'd be interested in knowing, but I don't think we need to know before we vote on your Bill and I think it's a fine Bill, Representative. I'm prepared to support it."

Speaker Kubik: "Further discussion? The Gentleman Washington, Representative Deering."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will." Deering: from "Representative, no one in here would be more interested in these sales of omission allowances coming from a coal industry, but just a couple of questions to clarify the intent. We're wanting to say that the utilities can act without Commission approval in the purchase or sale of emissions credits. Is that correct, the purchase and sale?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"That is correct."

"I'm sorry. Representative Deering."

"Thank you, Representative. Is there any safeguards in here to say that if a utility goes out of state to purchase these emissions credits so we can possibly continue burning Illinois coal, is there a guarantee in here that they just can't go out and expend all of their capitol to purchase these credits so that will directly come back and affect 134  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 the consumers in a substantial increase in rates just for the purchase of the credits?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"You can't keep a company from doing business out of state, so I don't think there's anything to prevent them to buy these credits. However, the reason for buying them is so they can burn more Illinois coal."

"Representative Deering."

"I understand that, Representative. That was not my question. My question was, when the utilities go out of state to purchase the emission credits, what kind of guarantee is there that they won't go out and spend exorbitant amounts of dollars or monies to buy these credits and then, we as consumers, will have to eat up the cost if there are adsorbent costs, I mean without the Commission approval, is there a ceiling as to the amount of money that they can spend?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I'm not sure I understand your question completely, but it seems to me you're asking if there's a way to circumvent the Constitution to prevent these companies from doing interstate business and there is no way to do that."

"Representative Deering."

"To put it a little simpler, Representative, if the utility wants to go out of state to one of these auctions and buy an emission credit, where the normal market price may be $250 and they want to go into an auction and maybe run the price up to a half a million dollars per credit, is there a safeguard to say that if they do that, then that cost will not be passed on to the consumer? Will they be able to pass off exorbitant or outrageous costs or will there will some guarantee that they can spend only so much 135  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 money to pass the cost on to the consumer?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"A utility has to provide service at the least cost under the law, so I don't think this is a great concern. I think they are bound to be responsible in these auctions and go with the market price."

"Representative Deering."

"Okay. Another question, Representative. If a utility wants to divest itself or divest a certain portion of its operations in the state, but they want to stay in business of producing electricity. They just want to cut costs. Without Commission oversight, apparently, there will be no safeguards to say that these utilities would sell these emissions credits so they can purchase out of state coal because it possibly may be cheaper for them to operate with that coal or the price of the emissions credits are so great that they can make a profit by selling those credits and putting Illinois workers in the unemployment line. Is there any safeguards there by not having Commission oversight?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Well, the point of buying and selling these emission credits is to able to provide service at the lowest cost, so I don't see a problem there."

"Representative Deering, you've got about 29 seconds."

"Well, thank you for your answers, Representative. I understand what you're trying to do with this Bill. I do have some concerns about it because apparently, there may not be any safeguards with no Commission oversight, but I'm prepared to vote for it. I want to see us burn Illinois coal. I hope we don't have to come back and address this 136  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 issue in the future if this authority has been abused."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Hartke."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"I find this discussion very interesting. Representative Ackerman, if a utility company buys credits, they can use more Illinois coal, correct? Because our coal is not as clean as other coals."

"Representative Ackerman."

"That is correct."

"Representative Hartke."

"If they sell credits, that means they'll use less Illinois coal."

"Representative Ackerman."

"They may, maybe not."

"Representative Hartke."

"So I think that the Commerce Commission's oversight was there to protect the Illinois coal miner, is that not correct?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"No, that is not correct. The Commerce Commission's oversight was part of a law that was there long before this federal auction was set up."

"Representative Hartke."

"But it was a very good move in my book, not only to protect the Illinois consumer to make sure that we had electricity and so forth, delivered here in Illinois at the least cost method as the oversight board. When we do away and pass this Bill, we're eliminating that safeguard, not only for the Illinois consumer, but also for the Illinois 137  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 coal miner because that oversight will not be there. Is that correct?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I'm sorry, Representative Hartke, I didn't understand all of your question. Would you repeat the question, please?"

"Representative Hartke."

"Yes, I will. I think that the oversight by the Illinois Commerce Commission was there possibly for two reasons. One is to protect the Illinois consumer to make sure that they got electricity at the cheapest possible price and number two, is to protect the Illinois coal miners."

"Representative Ackerman."

"No, the oversight for the Commerce Commission was set back in the '20s to stop security fraud which there was a problem with. There was no knowledge of this type of federal credits when that was set up. The credits are owned by the federal government, not the coal companies."

"Representative Hartke."

"The credits were created probably by the EPA, correct?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Yes, that is correct."

"Representative Hartke."

"And the credits were a method to make sure that we have clean air."

"Representative Ackerman."

"Correct."

"Representative Hartke."

"From the Illinois Commerce Commission's perspective, this just happened to fall under a securities division of the Illinois Commerce Commission, because then, the electric companies were going in and buying something other 138  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 than a tangible item. They were buying securities, is that right?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Would you please repeat your last question?"

"Representative Hartke, could you please restate Hartke: the question?" "Well, to the Bill, Mr. Speaker."

"Mr. Hartke, proceed."

"I'm not from the deep south where coal mining is done and I do have a utility that burns coal in my area and I am concerned about what's happening here. I do believe that this piece of legislation may be well founded and maybe my concerns I'm overreacting, but I would think that the Citizens Utility Board, if they were concerned about the consumer, they would stand in objection to this Bill. I f the Illinois coal miners were in total objection to the Bill, they would probably be standing in opposition to it, but I do respect the opinion of Representative Deering because he stands, I do believe, in objection to this Bill, as well as maybe I may. I'm interested in listening to more of the debate so that when I can finally make up my mind on this thing. I'm going to ask Representative Ackerman though, that he ought to get a hearing aid on, like you do, so that we don't have to continue to repeat the questions so that, you know, he can understand. It's eating up our time when he has to say, 'Repeat the question'."

"Well, thank you, Representative Hartke. I think part of the problem is that the noise level is a little loud, so your point is well taken, Representative Hartke. Maybe we can reduce the noise level in the Chamber. Further discussion? The Gentleman from Kankakee, 139  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day Representative Novak."

"Yes, Mr. Speaker, thank you. Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Yes, Representative Ackerman, these emission allowances, are they pursuant to the Clean Air Act in its subsequent Amendments in the federal government? Are these mandates that are from the federal government pursuant to the Clean Air Act in its Amendments?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Yes, they are."

"Representative Novak."

"Okay, thank you, Representative Ackerman. I think the subject we're dealing with is very important because it encourages companies to pollute less. We all know we can't reduce pollution to zero and these emission allowances and credits are very important. Could you explain for the Body in a very short synopsis how these emission credits work, these allowances as they go from one company to the next?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"Yes, I will read from this as to how the Congress set this up. The Congress determined that compliance costs would be lower if the utilities with relatively lower emission reduction costs sell their excess allowances and the utilities with relatively higher reduction costs buy the excess allowances of those other utilities. Under the current provisions of the Illinois Public Utilities Act, utilities in the state must obtain permission from the ICC to trade the allowances. Trading with utilities within the state has not been a problem, but the permission requirement delays the Illinois utilities from organized allowance trading, such as the annual auction sponsored by the federal EPA and the independent auctions held by the 140  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 Chicago Board of Trade. Not knowing what the auction prices will be, prevents the utilities from including costs in their petition for approval to the ICC. As a result, the ICC would reject the petition based on the fact that the petition information supplied is incomplete. So this is just a Bill to allow them to participate like other states do to purchase these auctions where the utilities are able to utilize them and give consumers and the lower cost service and use Illinois coal to the best of their ability."

"Representative Novak."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Representative Ackerman. So let me see if I have this correct, if I owned a company that emitted sulphur dioxide and I wanted to participate in this program and the federal government under the Clean Air Act Amendment said I cannot emit more than X number of tons of sulphur dioxide through my smokestacks per year, but through my own ingenuity and my engineers and creativity, I'm below that, okay? So then I have a credit, I understand. So then I can take that credit under that base level of toxins that are emitted and I can take that credit and sell those credits on the open market, is that correct? To another company?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"If you're referring to a utility as a company, yes, that is correct."

"Representative Novak."

"Okay, so when I go in the open market, I mean, when we talk about the market, are we referring to these auctions, Representative? Are they sales? Are they sold through NASDAQ or are they sold over the counter? I mean, how are these things conducted?" 141  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995

"Representative Ackerman."

"As I previously read, Congress set this up for the federal government's credits to be sold at an auction conducted through the Chicago Board of Trade."

"Representative Novak."

"Okay. So pursuant to the purchase of these credits, are there any mandates that utilities in the State of Illinois have to purchase high sulphur content Illinois coal?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"No, there are no mandates."

"Representative Novak."

"So that means Illinois Power or CIPS can buy coal from Wyoming or Montana?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"If they were planning on doing that, they probably would not buy the emission credits. This is to allow them to give the least cost service and I think they can do that in some instances by buying these emission credits and burning Illinois coal."

"Representative Novak."

"Okay, so let me just draw another scenario here, Representative Ackerman. If the utility went out and purchased, let's say Wyoming coal that has normally a low sulphur content compared to Illinois, they could accumulate this credit because it'll remit less sulphur dioxide. Then they'll be able to sell those credits on the open market and earn a profit then, correct?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"This could be done; however, it probably would not be the least cost service and the Illinois Power has promised that they would not do that at this point."

"Representative Novak, your time is just about 142  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day ready to expire."

"I understand.

Speaker Black: March 23, 1995 I don't have any further questions. I think it's a good program and we need to support it because we need to reduce pollution in Illinois."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Vermillion, Representative Black." "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I simply rise to support the Gentleman's Bill. Once again, we have spent 45 minutes filibustering a Bill that will, I'm rather confident, pass the Chamber very easily. Some of the filibusters would be much more entertaining if they would read out a Montgomery Ward catalog or a Sears and Roebuck catalog, rather than try and manufacture questions. If you had listened to the Sponsor, he explained to you that the pre-approval law that this Bill seeks to repeal was put on in the 1920's. There are very few states that still have it. Illinois, among those states that do, Indiana, Idaho, Missouri, Ohio, Utah, and California, simply will allow the unfettered trading of these clean air allowances as mandated by the federal government without having to go to the extra expense and added time of going to the Commerce Commission to get approval to do so. Now, if you don't want to vote for that, that's fine. Let me tell you what's happened in my district as a direct result of the Clean Air Act. I had a coal-burning generating plant operated by Illinois Power. It burned Illinois coal. They are now converting that plant to natural gas. Eighty-five people lost their jobs. Now the only way that the coal industry in this state is going to survive is by being able to buy these clean air allowances and continue to try and survive until we can bring some common sense back into the whole environmental 143  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day arena. March 23, 1995 There's no cost benefit analysis on anything that the EPA does and this is a classic example. Talk to any of the 80 people that were put out of work in my district because of a Clean Air Act that no cost benefit ratio can be shown to me or to anyone else who lives in my county. The Act is straightforward. The Gentleman's Bill is straightforward. You're going to benefit the Illinois coal miner. You're going to hopefully keep coal-burning utilities able to operate in the State of Illinois. I intend to vote for the Gentleman's Bill. I have a hunch the majority of you will as well."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Williamson, Representative Woolard."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the Gentleman would respond, I think I have a couple of questions, Representative Ackerman."

"The Gentleman will yield."

"I've got some genuine concerns about taking the ICC or any regulatory authority out of the process. My real concern, and this is genuine. This is genuine, Jay. My real concern is that we're going to be placing these emission credits in the hands of entrepreneurs, who have no business, no business, whatsoever, standing with the economy of this state. The utilities of this state are the coal mining industry of this state. Their only going to be in the business of purchasing or selling emission credits for a profit and that's not what we should be about. If anything, we should be tightening the controls as to how these things are regulated and the emissions credits should only be traded in a fair fashion with those people who are involved in the business of providing power or selling coal and that's my concern. Do you have any belief that there 144  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 may be some legitimacy to my concern?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"At this time, I have no worries in regard to this program. I believe with Congress setting up the program and the oversight of the EPA in conducting these auctions that we have many safeguards in place in the overriding concern here is, can we utilize this program to burn more Illinois coal at a cheaper cost to Illinois consumers?"

"Representative Woolard."

"Okay, let's pursue that just a little bit, Representative Ackerman. What kind of guarantees do we have if there's going to be any additional Illinois coal used at these facilities because of taking the ICC out of the process?"

"Representative Ackerman."

"I don't know how much of a guarantee it is, but the utilities are to burn or to produce energy at the lowest cost possible while emitting and keeping within the emission standards set up by the EPA."

"Representative Woolard."

"Thank you, Representative. To the Bill."

"Proceed."

"I'm here to tell you that I truly believe that if what we're doing is giving the opportunity, enhancing the opportunity for someone to be actively involved in the purchase of something that was not intended to be a commodity. It was intended to be a commodity with a specific purpose and that's to make our lives better. It's to make our lives better through better emission controls, lower utility costs, and in fact, what we're doing here tonight very well, and I understand that there's support, but it very well may be the end of the Illinois Coal 145  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Authority in this state. It very well may be the end of low cost utilities in this state. It very well may be the end of the whole process as we know it because we're taking away one of the regulatory authorities that should be, I'm not saying it has been, but should be actively pursuing those things that we're talking about. I would encourage each and every one of you to reconsider your thoughts and I believe that we need to address this issue again in the right fashion."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from McLean, Representative Brady."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"The Gentleman has moved to the previous question. The question is, 'Should the main in question be put?' All those in favor will vote 'aye', those opposed will vote 'no'. Voting is now open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On this Motion, there are 64 Members voting 'aye', 51 Members voting 'no', and 0 voting 'present'. The Motion is adopted. Representative Ackerman to close."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In a recent press conference, the president of the United Mine workers rose and said he wanted to work with the utilities and the government in instituting this program so it would benefit the Illinois Coal Industry and Illinois consumers. I support this Bill. I would think that all people from Southern Illinois that have an interest in Illinois Coal would support this Bill, but if you do not, vote against it. I ask for a favorable Roll Call."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 41 pass?' All those in favor will vote 'aye'; those opposed will vote 146  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day 'nay'. The voting is open. This if final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On this question, there are 84 Members voting 'aye', 28 voting 'no', and 1 voting 'present'. And this Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. For what reason does the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Saviano, rise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just would like to announce that we have some appetizers set up in the back in the way of pizzas and in approximately 45 minutes, we have steaks from Jim's Steakhouse coming here with some garlic bread. So have some pizza. Don't fill up and we'll have some steak delivered from Jim's in about 45 minutes."

"Thank you, Representative Saviano. I think that has met with great approval. Representative Saviano, do you have a Bill that you want called?"

"Yea, I'd like to have all 14 of mine called, actually."

"Thank you. So you've heard the announcement. The Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg, for what purpose are you seeking recognition?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the Gentleman yield for a question?"

"Representative Saviano, we have a rather odd request that Representative wishes you to yield for a question on your point of personal privilege? Will you yield? The Gentleman indicates that he will yield."

"Well, Representative, all of us certainly appreciate your magnanimous gesture. I assume, are you just trying to embarrass us, the Speaker, that he would not order steaks for the Membership, is that your intent?"

"Representative Saviano for a response." 147  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"No, March 23, 1995 I can assure you this was in cooperation with the Speaker's office."

"House Bills - Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 193."

"House Bill 193, a Bill for an Act relating to children. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Zickus."

"Mr. Speaker and Members of the House, House Bill 193 will have the Department of State Police and the Department of Children and Family Services establish a procedure for interaction between the two departments with regard to missing children. It provides that the Department of State Police shall contact the Department of Children and Family Services to provide it with the name, age, and sex of the child and the geographic area from which the child was reported missing SO that the Department of Children and Family Services can determine if that child had been abandoned within the previous two months. There was a situation that was brought to my attention by the deputy chief of police who works with the juveniles in the village of justice. An eleven year old child had disappeared or ran away from home and turned up in the neighboring village of Bridgeview. The juvenile had identified himself with a false name and was assigned to a foster home in Bridgeview when DCFS became aware of the case, they set up his file under the false name, but the juveniles family began looking for him and filed a missing child report and the entry was made on I-Search under his original name. We had... The LEADS system...knew of the missing child from Justice, DCFS knew about the child who had turned up in Bridgeview, but neither agency was aware of the information 148  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 possessed by the other. So it was the suggestion of the deputy chief of police that we try to do something for these few cases to prevent these children from falling through the cracks. As you can see this has bipartisan support. I know of no opposition to it and would appreciate you 'yes' vote."

"The Lady has moved for the passage of House Bill 193 and on that Motion, is there any discussion? The chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Schakowsky."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Sponsor indicates that she will yield."

"Thank you very much. Under your Bill then, in the case of a missing child what are the new responsibilities that the Department of Children and Family Services will have?"

"Representative Zickus."

"This Bill provides that the Department, the State Police give the DCFS the name, age, and sex of the child and the geographic area SO that they can determine from that information if it could be one of their wards. We wanted to go further with this, but unfortunately the computer system right now that DCFS has lacks the capability of making this stronger the way we had originally anticipated."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"You indicated that this Bill is a compromise back from what you wanted because of DCFS' inability to handle the burden of your original proposal. Could you just tell us the difference of what you really wanted to do and what we are ending up doing now in this Bill?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The original Bill had the Department of State Police 149  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 giving a physical description of the child in addition to the other information; however, the computer capabilities of DCFS they just don't have the computer ability to handle what we wanted."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Representative, what about the way DCFS tracks children under its care, gives you confidence what so ever that DCFS, given this information, will be able to find missing children?"

"Representative Zickus."

"This situation is not for every missing child. Every missing child is not going to end up as a ward with DCFS. In this particular case, the child had a different name. DCFS had no way of knowing. There was no interaction between DCFS and the State Police, so they had no way of knowing that there was a missing child report out on this particular child."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the Department of Children and Family Services is opposed to House Bill 193 because the Department currently does not keep the information necessary to complete the required cross reference. Am I thinking about the original Bill as opposed to the compromise, or are they unable to complete the responsibilities in hearing this Bill."

"Representative Zickus."

"The Department of Children and Family Services did have some problems with the original Bill. The Department of Children and Family Services however, was instrumental in drafting the compromise Amendment and they are neutral on the Bill. They have no opposition to it. They were the ones who worked with the State Police in drafting this 150  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day Amendment."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Representative do you know how much it will cost the Department of Children and Family Services to implement this legislation?"

"Representative Zickus."

"According to the Fiscal Note as amended it is not anticipated to have a significant fiscal impact."

"Representative Schakowsky."

"Representative, are you aware of how many children there are in the Department of Children and Family Services custody that the department...that are wards of DCFS that can not be located right now? This is a recurrent problem. Do you have any sense of how many children they are unable to locate that are their charges?"

"Representative Zickus."

"No, I do not know what the exact number is. And this legislation is not to address that whole problem. This legislation was drafted to address a situation in which some children fall through the cracks because there is no interaction presently in place between the State Police and DCFS. This Bill unfortunately does not address all the other problems that exist."

"Representative Schakowsky, your time has expired. Representative Schakowsky, could you bring your remarks to a close?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just wanted to say to the Bill. I certainly support the Sponsors intent to be able to implement as many systems as we can to locate these children. I remain skeptical that the Department of Children and Family Services which often can not even locate children that are currently in it's care when we ask 151  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 for that we'll be able to adequately manage this increase burden, but I certainly think that we ought to give it a shot."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Dart."

"Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Sponsor indicates that she will yield."

"Representative, what necessitated the Amendment that you drew up? What necessitated the Amendment that you drew up? Why did you change it?"

"Representative Zickus."

"Because of the computer abilities or lack of computer abilities of DCFS. They weren't able to go as far as we wanted so the Amendment provides that the Department of State Police shall contact the Department of Children and Family Services to provide the information and it is only...for DCFS to determine so they could determine if that child has been abandoned within the previous two months. It's not for a child that came into their custody six months or a year ago. It would be for more, recent when the child is being still looked for under missing child."

"Representative Dart."

"Why would we not want to know where the kids are at who have been in their custody for over two months."

"Representative Zickus."

"...to know where they are, but with this Bill, it would be able to address the more recent."

"Representative Dart."

"I understand that, Representative, and I appreciate that. But I shouldn't be surprised not being able to figure out what the heck DCFS is up to. I don't think anybody really 152  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 can. But why, in God's name, would we not be concerned with the kids who... The State Police find the child, it turns out that it could be a ward of DCFS, but we draw a deadline saying if you've only been missing for two months we're interest, but afterwards, it's okay? What type of nonsense is that?"

"Representative Zickus."

"This does not handle all cases. Normally, a parent or a guardian is not going to wait two or three months to report a child missing. This is for when a child has been reported missing SO that the two departments can communicate with each other which they are not doing now."

"Representative Dart."

"Well, I understand that and that's part of their ongoing problem is that they don't communicate with virtually anybody, but the reality of it is, why are we putting a two months deadline on this thing? It makes no sense at all. Is there a logical reason we can say why those children that had been in custody for two months of DCFS are more important that the ones that we have lead through the system for years and have done nothing for?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The Department of State Police and the Department of Children and Family Services were the ones who help crack the Amendment. If it were any longer, they would not be recent runaways and that's what we are dealing with in this particular legislation."

"Representative Dart."

"So what happens then, if it turns out that they find a child who has not been a recent one, but it's over two months."

"Representative Zickus." 153  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995

"That is not covered in this legislation. As I said this legislation is not covering everything. particular case."

"Representative Dart."

It's for this Dart: "I guess that is my point. My point is that it should be. This is the typical DCFS ploy. This is like a broken record. What's the least amount we can do here? Well let's look at the kids who have only been missing for two months. Well I'd hate to give everyone a newsflash here, but we have kids that have been missing for years and they're DCFS wards. Those children deserve this. This is something where your original Bill made more sense because you'd get all of them. To put a two months limit is the typical DCFS garbage. Did they at least give you some type of reason whatever it is as to why we have to have two months and nothing else?"

"Representative Zickus."

"Representative, I would be very happy to work with you on legislation that is more far reaching. This is what we were able to come up with at this time and it helps to address the situation that does exist. I would be very happy to work with you to expand it later on."

"Representative Dart."

"I appreciate that, Representative. I just wish more of you colleague on the other side of the aisle were willing to do that because as luck would have it, we had legislation this year dealing with children who are missing and we actually put forward something that had some teeth into it in requiring of all people, this is a shocker, requiring DCF to report when they lose kids because they are losing them and they are missing them. And guess what, that Bill along partisan lines was killed in Committee 154  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 along with almost all of my other Bills as a matter of fact, all my other Bills as a matter of fact, all killed along partisan lines. This is a situation that has reached crisis stage. We have children who are missing. These children did nothing wrong to anybody and yet we stuck them in the system and now guess what, we lost them."

"Representative Dart, could you please bring you remarks to a close?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To bring my remarks to a close as I said this is true DCFS at it's best. Let's do the least possible that we can and in the meantime when we have a couple of Bills out there, as I mentioned I had a Bill which required these people whose duty it is in the first place to watch these kids that did nothing wrong to require them to report when they lose kids and they killed that Bill. I also had a resolution to ask them to list all these children that are missing and guess what, that too got killed along partisan lines because DCFS does not want to admit this utter embarrassment which they are because their fingerprints are all over this. These are children as I said who have done nothing wrong. The only mistake they made was to have the misfortune to be in this state and to be subject to this department because this department has lost them. They have done nothing for these kids. They are further abusing and hurting these kids and it rests on their shoulders."

"Further discussion? The Chair recognizes the Lady from Cook, Representative Ronen."

"Thank you, Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Sponsor indicates she will yield."

"Representative, what problem are you addressing with this Bill?" 155  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Zickus."

"As I explained earlier, we had a child who was reported as a missing child. DCFS had him in a foster home under another name, what happened was the LEADS was looking for a missing child, had no interaction with DCFS. DCFS thought that this child was an abandoned child. We are just establishing a procedure so that the two departments can communicate with each other and perhaps bring some of these children home."

"Representative Ronen."

"Representative, you say these two departments. Are you talking about...what other department are you talking about?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The Department of State Police and the Department of Children and Family Services."

"Representative Ronen."

"Is there any requirement for DCFS to report to local police and then to the State Police?"

"Representative Zickus."

"In this legislation the State Police are reporting to DCFS the name, age, sex, and geographic area from which a child was reported missing so that DCFS has that information and can determine if that child had been abandoned within the previous two months."

"Representative Ronen."

"On thing I'm not clear on, part of your Bill as I understand it, removes the requirement that the department maintain information on its computer network concerning children. Can you explain that?"

"Representative Zickus."

"That is correct and that is because DCFS lacks the 156  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 computer ability to do what we had originally wanted to do. Once their computer system can interact with the other, than it would not be a problem."

"Representative Ronen."

"I'm unclear. You are saying this was a requirement and now we are removing it? It was required that they maintain this information on a computer network?"

"Representative Zickus."

"That's what the original Bill called for. It was a requirement in the original Bill, but we were unable to accomplish that because of their computer incapability."

"Representative Ronen."

"Well I'm having trouble understanding then how this can work if there is not computer capacity here. It seems to me that's the only way the system can work if information is being maintained in a computer and exchanged between the two departments. So I'm not sure what we are accomplishing here."

"Representative Zickus."

"They do maintain in their files the name, age, sex, and the geographic area already in their files. However, they did not have the ability to also have the physical description that the original Bill called for."

"Representative Ronen."

"Representative, how much money have we spent and allocated to the Department of Children and Family Services for computer systems in this last year? It seems to me that it's been in the millions. Can you verify that?"

"Representative Zickus."

"I don't have the exact number on that, but my understanding is that the computer system is paid for primarily from the federal government." 157  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Ronen."

"My point is that it seems that a great deal of money has been appropriated with tax dollars for a computer system in the Department of Children and Family Services and what you're suggesting in your legislation is after spending all that money, we still have a system that doesn't work or rather we don't really have a system. Is that correct?"

"Representative Zickus."

"My understanding is that there was never any procedure for the interaction between the State Police and DCFS and that's what we are trying to accomplish with this."

"Representative Ronen."

"So your saying that the purpose of you Bill is to design and develop and implement some software programs on the computer so those two computers can speak to one another? Is that the purpose of this legislation?"

"Representative Zickus."

"No. They already maintain the information that we are asking for. They were not developing new software. They did not have the ability to include the physical description. That was removed from the original Bill."

"Representative Ronen."

"Thank you. To the Bill, Speaker. It just seems apparent that while it is very important to be able to track that information, the point I think we are seeing here is that it's not being done and this Bill in no way is going to help for that to be done and the real question I think raised here is why, why after spending millions of dollars on a computer system can't the Department of Children and Family service still provide that king of information and why can't that information be shared between two state agencies so that children don't continue to keep falling 158  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 through the cracks so I think this Bill just raises more questions than answer them. Thank you."

"Further discussion? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang. I noticed that you were in line very quickly this evening, so are...have you eaten and are you ready to debate?"

"I'm always ready for a debate, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Sponsor indicates that she will yield."

"Representative, I know you have been through this before, but I still have trouble understanding why you changed the Bill from the original way to the way it is now with this two month business. Can you explain that to me SO I can understand it?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The situation that was brought to my attention was a young child who had just disappeared and we thought it was best to have it within the last two months SO that they would be able to communicate. Instead of having a child being searched as a missing child by one department and is an abandoned child in another department, we want a way that the police can let...the State Police can let DCFS know that they do have a missing child of this age and sex and the geographic area from which they found them."

"Representative Lang."

"Well that's fine, but that doesn't explain this two months business. So under your Bill, if the State Police...the State Police wouldn't be under an obligation to report a child if the child had been missing for over two months. Is that what I am understanding here?"

"Representative Zickus."

"The intent is for them to notify DCFS as soon as they 159  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day are notified. When the State Police they would notify DCFS. So that DCFS it matches any of their recent wards."

"Representative Lang." March 23, 1995 are notified, then could determine if

"That's all fine, but I still don't still don't understand this two months business. Tell me how that works. Tell me what children won't be searched for under your Amendment."

"Representative Zickus."

"We have been over this a number of times. We are just looking for a match to when there is a child who is reported missing, we just want to enable to DCFS to have that information so that they can check their wards. I said this Bill is not going to accomplish everything. You have your problems with DCFS. This Bill is not going to do everything that you want it to do. It is to address a certain situation."

"Representative Lang."

"Wasn't you first Bill better? Didn't it do more? Didn't it protect more children? Wouldn't we have found more missing and abandoned children under your first original Bill before the Amendment?"

"Representative Zickus."

"It was better in the fact that it had a physical description included in it and that's what we took out of this, because they weren't able to do it with the computer that they have. The information that we're asking to be provided is already in their records. They were not able to include a physical description. That's the difference."

"Representative Lang."

"So they only have records for two months, Representative?"

"Representative Zickus."

"They have records for a lot longer, but if a child runs 160  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 away tomorrow they are not going to be reported missing a year ago. If they just run away now, it's not going to be on their records for a year or two years ago. We are trying to start on it."

"Representative Lang."

"So you really don't have a great answer as to why you took a pretty good Bill and made it not so pretty good do you?"

"Representative Zickus."

"Yes, I do have a good answer and I'll repeat it for about the twelfth time. The Department of Children and Family Services lacks the computer ability to trace the children by physical description. That's the reason."

"Representative Lang."

"So, if we are talking about thousands of missing children here, why don't we just give DCFS the computer ability to find them all? Why are limiting this to the the short period of time?"

"Representative Zickus."

"Hopefully, we will be able to do that in the future date. Right now, my understanding is that the funding comes from the federal government."

"Representative Lang, you have got 44 seconds."

"But your not prepared to help us find the state money to update the computers so that we can make this a broader Bill as your first Bill was. I was prepared to support your original Bill, Representative. Why did you change the Bill so I can't support it anymore."

"Representative Zickus."

"I would like to get together with you and you let me know what program you would like to take the millions of 161  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 dollars away from that we can update the computer system for DCFS. Maybe we could work on that."

"Representative Lang."

"Why do we have the State Police reporting to DCFS rather than DCFS reporting the names of thousands of missing children to the State Police?"

"Representative Zickus."

"We are looking for DCFS to be informed of missing children. The State Police have that information."

"Representative, does DCFS know all their missing children? Representative Dart has indicated there's thousands of missing children DCFS can even identify. Is that true?"

"Representative Zickus."

"That's a question that will have to be answered by DCFS."

"Representative Lang, your time has expired. Representative Mautino is next seeking recognition. So the Chair would recognize the Gentleman from Bureau, Representative Mautino."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Sponsor indicates she will yield."

"Under you Bill on House Amendment #1, the...DCFS will use their current case tracking system?"

"Representative Zickus."

"Yes, under our Bill."

"Representative Mautino."

"Thank you, and the under in the legislation here it was...it's basically been designed with the intent that a search would be initiated by the State Police once a child has been put into the LEADS system, the Law Enforcement Agency Data System and then from that point, it would track under their current system the most current supported 162  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day children of DCFS cases."

"Representative Zickus."

"That's correct."

"Representative Mautino." March 23, 1995

"So in effect, what we are doing is taking an emergency situation or an emergency case where we are looking for a child who has recently been recorded lost and checking with a state agency who's responsibility it would be to currently track wards SO that we would know if these children have been taken or have been placed somewhere within their system."

"Representative Zickus."

"That's correct."

"Representative Mautino."

"Thank you. I think...although we have much or many areas where we can and must improve the services of DCFS, I'm very proud to Co-Sponsor this with you and appreciate an 'aye' vote from the Members."

"Further discussion. The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Tazwell, Representative Ackerman. Representative Ackerman, we allow you the time."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move the previous question."

"The Gentleman has moved the previous question. The question is, 'Should the main question be put?' All those in favor will vote 'aye'; those opposed will voted 'no'. The voting is now open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? The Clerk shall take the record. On this Motion, there are 66 voting 'aye', 48 voting 'no', and 0 voting 'present'. The Motion is adopted. Representative Zickus to close."

"It's impossible with one piece of legislation to address 163  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 all of the concerns that you have about DCFS right now, but we can make a start and we can help with an immediate situation and would appreciate your support."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 193 pass?' All those in favor will vote 'aye'; all those opposed will vote 'no'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On this Motion, there are 115 voting 'aye', 0 voting 'no', and 0 voting 'present'. This Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. For what purpose does the Representative from Coles, Representative Weaver, rise."

"Mr. Speaker, just an inquiry of the Chair. Can you tell me approximately how long we just spent in debate on a Bill that passed out of here 115 to nothing?"

"Representative Weaver, I think we spent approximately 25 minutes on that Bill.

"Representative Biggert in the Chair. Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 377."

"House Bill #377, a Bill for an Act that amends the Illinois Banking Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"The Gentleman from Clinton, Mr. Granberg. For what purpose do you arise?"

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. A point of order. Representative Murphy has had his light on for quite sometime. He has an inquiry of the Chair and I would ask the Speaker to recognize Representative Murray... Murphy to make his inquiry."

"Thank you, Representative. The Representative from Cook, Representative Murphy." 164  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Thank you, Madam Speaker, so very much. March 23, 1995 I realize that you just came in the Chair, but the previous Speaker before you, Representative Mary Flowers was attempting to speak and address this Floor and I happened to have been over there speaking with her and she on...her light was on for a long time. What I need to know, even though we change and move the previous question, how long do you have to have your light on? Or does it matter, or doesn't it matter. I need to know that."

"Representative Flowers, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Madam Speaker, the previous Bill that was on the board was a very important issue. We were talking about missing children in the State of Illinois and I think it deserved a little bit more debate than what was given. So therefore, I would appreciate if you would dump that Roll Call, put the Bill back up and let's start all over again because there was something that I've wanted to say and I didn't get the opportunity to ask Representative Zickus some very important questions in regards to this legislation. So please, and I move to reconsider the previous Bill. And thank you very much, Madam Speaker, because I'm sure you are really going to do the best you can to put forth this issue."

"Thank you, Representative Flowers. Please put your Motion in writing. Representative Deuchler, House Bill 377."

"Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I bring before you House Bill 377. I'm hoping that a change of subject from children to banking may cast some light on some of the changes that passed through our Committee with a unanimous vote, a do pass Motion, of 19 to 0. As you 165  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 notice, Representative Bugielski is a hyphenated Co-Sponsor, he's the Minority Spokesman on the Financial Institutions Committee. House Bill 377 contains co contents from three Bills as well as one new proposal. House Bill 1468 that amends the Illinois Banking Act, it authorizes a bank to exchange information regarding a customer with any company owned directly or indirectly by the holding company that owns the bank. Current law allows this information sharing among bank subsidiaries of the holding company only. House Bill 1483 amends the Illinois Banking Act, The Commissioner of Bank and Trust Company Bill. It cleans up and updates the Banking Act and repeals the requirement that bank directors own specified shareholding in their bank and that they take an oath of fealty to the bank. It clarifies voluntary bank disillusion procedures and provides for the speed up of any disillusion. Also contains the contents from House Bill 2342. This is The Commissioner of Banks and Trust Companies Bill, it makes various changes worked out by the commissioner and the Corporate Fiduciary Association of Illinois, cleans up obsolete sections and references within the Act and then one fourth proposal, which is a new language proposal, it provides for the non-admissibility in civil proceedings of compliance review information gathered by the bank as a part of its compliance review process. I know of no opposition to any of these aspects of the Bill, the four aspects of the Bill that I have discussed. Illinois Bankers Association supports all of them and I would be glad to answer any questions."

"Thank you, Representative. Is there any discussion? The Representative from Cook, Representative Pugh, is recognized." 166  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. I had a question of the Chair and it relates to... I've had my light on for the last four Bills. Prior to that, I had my light on for the last six Bills, last week. It seems to me like the Members of the caucus, particularly the minority, the black caucus, are not being allowed the opportunity to debate these Bills. Yesterday, it was Representative Harold Murphy, today...today it was Mary Flowers, who is it going to be tomorrow? Are we going to get an opportunity to express our views that we were sent down here by our constituents to express or are we going to be gagged and held hostage by this tyrannical approach to government? It is not..."

"Representative Pugh. I have a list here of lights and you were number one. Would you like to discuss this Bill?"

"In regard to Mary Flowers moved to reconsider the vote, the rules... House Rule #3715 says, a Member who..."

"Excuse me, Representative Pugh. You were recognized to discuss House Bill 377. Do you have any questions for the Sponsor or discussion?"

"...dilates that the Member voting on the prevailing side does not have to put a Motion in writing. You stated that the Motion would have to be in writing. The rules say that it can be writing, that it may be in writing. It does not say that it has to be in writing, Madam Chairman. We are saying that the rules are being arbitrarily disseminated throughout the caucus arbitrarily rendered and we take offense at that. And if the rules, if you're going to be fair, the rules need to be..."

"Representative Pugh. House Bill or House Rule 741 says that every Motion shall be reduced to writing if the providing...presiding officer desires it and I did ask 167  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 for that to be in writing. Representative Pugh, would you like to debate the House...the Bill?"

"It says the Motion to reconsider may be laid on the table without effecting the vote to which it was referred. So all...so what I'm saying, Madam Chairman..."

"Would you like to lay it on the table? I was asking Representative Pugh. Thank you. The Motion will be laid on the table."

"No. That's not what I...I'm requesting to do. Madam Speaker, according to the rules, according to the rules, the Motion...it said that it didn't have to be but you're saying that it did have to be, now it has been, SO we're saying that we would like..."

"All right. If you..."

"...the Motion to be considered...to be considered and we would like to go back to that vote SO that it can be debated reasonably."

"Okay. Representative Pugh, we're in the middle of a debate right now. We will get to that Motion as soon as we finish the debate on this Bill. Thank you. Do you wish to discuss this Bill?"

"Madam Speaker."

"Do you wish to discuss House Bill 377?"

"I wish to discuss the previous Bill and if you're...but if you're agreeing that we will go back to reconsider that vote then..."

"Representative Pugh, I said I would go back to that after we do this Bill. Representative Hoffman, do you..."

"Yes. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"She indicates she will."

"With regard to House Bill 377. You had indicated that 168  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 this clarifies provisions that limit loans and investments by banks. It would limit loans to partnership loans affiliates and when investment limits are applied. Could you be more specific, why do we want the hamstring banks so that they can't make certain loans to partnerships and foster economic development in this state?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"It would be helpful. You are talking to House Bill 377 which is, of course, correct. But we are talking about four provisions within this Bill. Do you have a reference point within the Amendment that you would like us to refer to and then maybe we could address your question more clearly."

"Representative Hoffman."

"I believe it would amend Section 5-...5/32 of the Illinois Banking Act."

"Representative Deuchler."

"I'm told that Section 5 brings the Illinois Banking Act in compliance with partnership law which is not now the case."

"Representative Hoffman, do you have further questions?"

"Yes, yes, Madam Speaker. In...you said it would bring in conjunction with our...into compliance with partnership law. Why should partnership law supersede the banking laws of this state? Some people would say the banking laws should supersede the partnership laws."

"Representative Deuchler. Proceed."

"Under current practice, business is liable for personal loans and it should be the other way around."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Well, I mean...I guess you can make a judgment call on 169  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 that one, but you also repealed provision that requires a bank to file a Community Reinvestment Act statement. It's my understanding that federal law requires this statement to be readily available at the bank. Why would you delete the provision of having to file this Community Reinvestment Act statement when I think that it is vitality important to comply with federal law, to insure that we're not in discompliance with federal law."

"Representative Deuchler."

"That was a federal requirement. It is not used; however, these compliance statements are kept at the bank."

"Further questions? Representative Hoffman."

"But, Representative, shouldn't that be able to be available to other individuals throughout the state indicating that this bank, indeed, is complying with the Community Reinvestment Act. What you're saying is, they would have to travel to that bank to get the information that is vitally important, I think, under the Community Reinvestment Act. We're talking about banks reinvesting in our community, you know, that's our Banking Act here in Illinois was established to foster economic development. The banking laws in this state are supposedly meant to insure that...that banks reinvest in their communities to not have...to not have banks only investing in their self interest, but to foster economic development. And if we don't make that readily available, how can we insure that the banks are complying with the Community Reinvestment Act."

"Representative Deuchler."

"These are on file at each individual bank and I understand that there was one request in the last three years." 170  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Hoffman." March 23, 1995

"Also, it is my understanding that this is on Short Debate. We would like to remove that from Short Debate."

"It shall be removed from Short Debate."

"Just a couple more questions, Representative. I understand that many of these...you would call them technical changes and we may support the Bill, but I think we have to be a bit careful when we make these types of rash...rash requirements or statements that they're just technical. This would also clarify the resident requirements of bank directors and, my understanding, it says it would delete obsolete references and remove obsolete procedures for directors qualifying shares. Now that's what my analysis says, but I think that we have had a long standing law and a long standing...long standing in this state has been a residence requirement for directors of banks. This would delete many of those long standing requirements. Why do you want to do that? Don't you belive in community banks in this state, don't you think it's vitally important that the people who serve as directors of those banks make sure that we reinvest in the communities as per the Community Reinvestment Act and are members of that community and are upright, upstanding members or interest in the community? That's why we have banks to reinvest, for economic development in local communities. Why would you ever want to get rid of that?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"I believe that this requirement was deleted by statute five years ago. So this is ..."

"Representative Hoffman."

"Well, Representative, I don't think...I wasn't in the legislature five years ago and I would have probably, at 171  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 that time, voted 'no' on the deletion of that provision. However, since it's already deleted, maybe we should...we should look at...at least making sure that the statutes reflect what has already been done and I commend you on that purpose at least for that provision of this Act. I don't really think that this does that much of anything. think that we need to make sure that...that technical changes are truly just technical changes and that whenever we make these types of changes in the Banking Act, we're not risking banks and other people and depositors money. That's why I think that when people talk about the First Amendment or people talk about asking questions and when people talk about limiting debate, we have an obligation under the First Amendment to represent our district and that's why we're asking these questions, not simply to harass..."

"Good timing, Representative. The Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Hartke."

"Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I really don't know a thing about banks and I'm not going about that right now. But I do want talk about an issue that Jay brought up and that would be, we've been criticized over here about harassing and haranguing. As I go around, I hear criticism about this General Assembly and this Body over the fact that we don't discuss Bills enough and that's the truth, we really don't. I learned more by listening to the debate here on the House Floor so that I can understand the job we're doing and I can explain to my constituents about the job that we're doing. And SO I look forward to these debates and listening to the debates so that I have answers for my constituents when I go back into the district to explain the issues to them so that they understand better 172  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day the job that we can do for them."

"Thank you, Representative Hartke. The Representative from Rock Island, Representative Boland."

"Madam Speaker, I yield my time to Representative Dart."

"Thank you, Representative, but his light is not on. The Representative from St. Clair, Representative Holbrook. Oh, now I see it. The Representative from Cook, Representative Dart."

"Thank you...thank you. I only had a handful of questions anyway so this will not even be the whole five minutes. You were talking, the Bill was mostly in regards to technical changes, and who was the source of these all?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"Most of this came from the commissioner of banks and trusts."

"Representative Dart."

"Thank you. And is this something that he had worked out with the Bankers Association and the rest of the folks, because we don't have any positions one way or the other on this?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"They do support it and it was worked out."

"Representative Dart."

"Just so I can clarify this, it was the commissioner of the banks and the Bankers Association, the two of them worked this Bill out?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"And the commissioner of banks and trusts. Actually the commissioner of banks and trusts did meet with us on various occasions, we worked with them, we had additional feed back from the Illinois Bankers Association on the entire Bill, we worked with them. So the result that you 173  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE see is a composite of those ideas."

"Representative Dart." March 23, 1995

"Thank you. So am I right...is this sort of their omnibus Bill that's going to contain all of their things that we'll see all year as far as their changes that they're looking for?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"Is your question, will there be other changes in banking law this year other than this Bill?"

"Representative Dart."

"No. Just in general, between these people as far as the ones believe were the technical changes that needed to be done. This is the only one we're going to be seeing regards to that and not regards to other banking issues."

"Representative Deuchler."

"That is correct."

"Representative Dart."

"Thank you very much."

"Thank you. The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"She indicates she will."

"Representative, your Bill restates residency requirements for state bank directors, is that correct?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"Yes, it does."

"Representative Lang."

"Now currently, not less than half of the directors must live in Illinois and not less than two-thirds must live either in Illinois or within a hundred miles of the bank, is that also correct?"

"Representative Deuchler." 174  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"That is correct."

"Representative Lang." March 23, 1995

"What changes do you make in this area regarding residency requirements for state bank directors?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"Two-thirds of the directors must live within a hundred miles of the bank."

"Representative Lang. Further questions?"

"So you take out the rule that at least half of them must live in Illinois, is that correct?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"Yes. But you do realize that with the changes in interstate banking, we have to bring these laws into compliance."

"Representative Lang."

"Technically though, under your Bill, all the bank directors could live in Indiana, but still be a hundred miles from an Illinois bank, is that right?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"No."

"Representative Lang."

"Well then maybe then you can re-explain this again. You've indicated tome that you took out the section of the Bill requiring that at least half of the directors must live in Illinois. So who must live in Illinois?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"The hypothetical question that you're raising is, what if a bank is on the border with Indiana and technically then the directors could live within a hundred miles of that border bank, but most of the banks would not be in that particular situation."

"Representative Lang." 175  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Well, I'm not sure what you mean, Representative. Chicago is less than a hundred miles from Indiana and less than a hundred miles from Wisconsin. Danville is less than a hundred miles from Indiana. What about those banks? Do those bank directors have to live in Illinois?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"I think it's fairly clear that the statute is saying a hundred miles of the bank location."

"Representative Lang."

"So it took me about two minutes and fifteen seconds to get the answer to my question, which is, the bank directors do not have to live in Illinois, is that correct?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"That is correct. However, in most cases they would."

"Representative Lang."

"The Bill also deletes requirements that the directors take an oath of fealty to the bank and own a certain number of shares of bank stock. Why is that change being made?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"It comes in under deregulation that was enacted five years ago, cleans up the statute."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, did the oath become some sort of a problem that we're trying to address or the oath is just simply a piece of paper notarized? What's the big deal?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"Fits in with the deregulatory effort."

"Representative Lang."

"The Bill also provides certain new procedures for voluntary dissolutions of state banks. What are those new procedures?"

"Representative Deuchler." 176  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995

"Would you repeat the question?"

"Representative Representative Lang." Deuchler.

I'm sorry. Lang: "Thank you. The Bill provides there are new procedures for banks to follow in a case of voluntary dissolution of a state bank. What are those new procedures?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"Well, I understand that this falls into the area of the assets and liabilities. If all of the assets have been dispersed, then the bank would...would be dissolved."

"Representative Lang."

"We're also going from a two year...from a six year wind up period to a...to a handle a dissolution to a two year wind up period. What's the background and the purpose behind that change?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"This is only for banks that have transferred substantially all their assets and liabilities. Page 58."

"Representative Lang, you're reaching the end of your time."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Illinois Bankers Association, we understand, support the Bill. What about the community bankers?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"They support the Bill."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. I have nothing further."

"Thank you, Representative Lang. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Schoenberg."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield for a question?"

"She indicates she will." 177  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

March 23, 1995 "Representative Deuchler, the...one of the provisions in the Bill indicates that there are procedures for the merger of a Midtier Bank holding company with a state bank. Is there a specific incident, specific case which precipitated this proposed change in the law?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"They serve no purpose. Would allow the bank to absorb them."

"Representative Schoenberg."

"So in other words they're anachronistic and they're unnecessary and that's what precipitated the change?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"They had already served their purpose."

"Representative Schoenberg."

"One...one additional question. The...and that's regarding the...the FDIC receivership of state banks. Could you elaborate, elaborate, pardon me, on what provisions are in the Bill that insure the transfer from the FDIC receivership of state banks?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"State was not clear, this simply acknowledges it."

"Representative Schoenberg."

"So that if you could...so that the procedure...if you could briefly describe the actual procedure."

"Representative Deuchler. Representative Deuchler."

"When a bank is in receivership, the FDIC runs it, conforms with current practice."

"Representative Schoenberg."

"So this is to bring us into conformity with federal practice?"

"Representative Deuchler indicates it is." 178  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Yes it is."

"Representative Schoenberg." March 23, 1995

"So if we're now being brought into conformance with federal banking practice, what were we doing before?"

"Representative Deuchler."

"We actually had to go to court to rule that the FDIC was the primary agent."

"Representative Schoenberg."

"Okay. Thank you. There are no further questions. I...to the Bill, Madam Speaker. As a member of the Financial Institutions Committee, I'm...I supported this measure. My question simply made my understanding a little clearer and I hope it made the understanding of the other Members of the Body clearer as well and I urge passage of the Bill."

"Thank you, Representative Schoenberg. The Chair recognizes Representative Deuchler to close."

"Just to ask for a...an affirmative vote and to tell you again that the Bill passed out of Committee 19 to nothing."

"The question is, 'Shall House Bill 377 pass?' All those in favor vote 'aye'; all those opposed vote 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wished? Have all voted who wished? Have all voted who wished? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On this question, there are 112 'ayes', 0 'nays', 3 'present'. And this Bill, having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. Mr. Clerk, please read Representative Flowers' Motion. Mr. Clerk, please read the Motion."

"Representative Flowers having voted on the prevailing side, has moved to reconsider the vote by which 179  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day House Bill 193 passed."

"The Motion, Representative Flowers."

"Madam Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 193 is a very important piece of legislation. We are talking about thousands of missing kids in the State of Illinois unaccounted for. And for us to make this a very Short Debate, pass over it as if we were talking about bricks and mortar is truly a unconscionable. So therefore, I think it is very important that we have the opportunity to talk about the missing children in the State of Illinois. After all, we are their caretakers. We are responsible..."

"Representative Flowers, could you confine your remarks to the Motion please?"

"Well, Madam Speaker, I would like to reconsider and have the Bill heard. I want the Bill fully debated, please."

Speaker Biggert" "Representative Flowers."

"Madam Speaker, I would truly like to have this Motion reconsidered. There is a lot of unanswered questions just as there are a lot of missing children out there, so I think we need to talk about this issue. This is not something that should be passed by willy nilly like it doesn't mean anything to anyone because it means a lot to us."

"Thank you, Representative Flowers. Representative Lang, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in support of the Lady's Motion. You know, we have a lot a problems regarding DCFS that we should be dealing with here, problems of missing children is certainly one. The problem that the foster parents have is another; The problems that DCFS has 180  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day Lang: March 23, 1995 internally is another the fact that they don't come to the Committees to testify on Bills that they should be supporting. We're here to take care of the health, welfare, and safety of children and we turn that into a partisan..."

"Representative Lang, please confine your remarks to the question of reconsidering the Motion." "Thank you, and when we turn the children of Illinois into a partisan football and we allow DCFS to make it a partisan issue, it seems to me that we are doing a damage and a disservice to the people who live in our state. We have the duty to protect children in our state and when we move Bills along that don't fully protect them such as this Bill..."

"Representative Lang."

"Yes, Ma'am."

"Please confine your remarks to reconsidering the Motion. I think you are speaking to the Bill."

"I would be happy to do that."

"Thank you."

"And so the reason we should reconsider this vote, Madam Speaker, is that we have had a lot of problems in that department that aren't being addressed. They are not being addressed in this Body, they're not being addressed in the Senate, they're not even being addressed by DCFS, Madam Speaker. DCFS has failed to do anything about the problems. Instead, 50 or 60 Bills sponsored by Democrats have been killed in Committee. Many have not even allowed...been allowed to have testimony on them and it seems to me, Madam Speaker, that this whole issue regarding And so I DCFS needs to be studies very, very carefully. would urge the Chair and urge the Members to start thinking 181  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day about what we are doing about children in the State of Illinois. You know, I had three Bills killed in the criminal..." March 23, 1995

"Representative, could you confine your remarks to reconsidering the Motion please?"

"Sure, to reconsider, yes. One of the reasons I think we ought to reconsider, Madam Speaker, is that when I was before the criminal law Committee I had three Bills that we killed and the Members of that Committee, Madam Speaker, could not even look me in the eye when they voted 'no'. There are plenty of good Bills out here to take care of missing children. There are plenty of good Bills out here to deal with the problems in DCFS. There are plenty of good Bills out here on the Floor to deal with the health, welfare, and safety of children in the State of Illinois. We are not getting it done. The governor of the state is not getting it done. DCFS is not getting it done. We on this side of the aisle..."

"Representative Lang, you are not confining your remarks to the Motion. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Pugh."

"Thank you Madam Chairman. I had a procedural question. Would I be correct in understanding that our comments are restricted to the Motion itself?"

"Yes, the remarks are to be confined to whether we should reconsider the vote or not, not to the merits of the Bill."

"Okay. Not to the merits of the Bill, but to whether or not we should reconsider the vote."

"That's correct."

"And after we have voted whether or not to reconsider the vote, then we vote again on the Bill. Do we debate the 182  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 merits of the Bill at that time? I ask that question, Madam Speaker, because there was several unanswered questions. Whether or not the Department of Children and Family Services was in favor of this legislation or not and whether or not we are in the business of you serving the authority of the departments that we have put in place to carry out their various functions."

"Representative Pugh, whether we will redebate the Bill depends on the outcome of the Motion to reconsider, but if it is successful, you will have the opportunity to redebate the Bill."

"So you're saying that if the Motion to reconsider does not pass, we will not get the opportunity, we will never know whether or not the Department of Children and Family Services was in favor of this Bill. We will never know what the cost of this legislation will be to the government or any of that unless there's a Motion to reconsider."

"That's correct. The Gentleman from Coles, Representative Weaver."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise in opposition to this Motion. How many times today have we debated and debated and debated and only to see the Bill fly out with a unanimous vote. The Sponsor of the Motion and the Speakers on the other side of the aisle claim that they didn't have enough discussion, why did they vote 'yes'. If they had questions about the Bill, they should have voted 'present' they should have voted 'no', but to call for a vote and to vote 'yes' on it unanimously and then say, oh I made a mistake. I didn't know what I was doing."

"Please confine your remarks to the Motion, Representative."

"I think the Motion is inappropriate and it is 183  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 disingenuous I think it is simply another matter to drag this debate out into the wee hours of the morning. I think it ought to be defeated."

"Representative Davis."

"Madam Speaker, I rise to concur with the Motion to reconsider the vote here. I think this issue as has been stated is significantly crucial, especially in light of the responsibilities and the duties that DCFS has. I think we need to know exactly what and how will the lives of our children be effected based upon the passage of this legislation. Now some of us in this Body don't get called on to speaker very often. For some reason you skip over us, Representative, and I went through that as a little girl when I was in a school. I was in a school where they pretended not to see me, Representative, and they would skip over me for recitation time and that is just not exceptable..."

"Representative, could you speak to the Motion please?"

"It is just not exceptable. My consideration for this Motion, Representative, Madam Speaker, I believe that you also believe as well as the Chairman, Mr. Weaver over there that our children are more important than a small, a small token of time to debate their lives and their future. I urge you, Madam Speaker, and I urge you to reconsider this Motion and allow people to address this issue. That's why we are here. We are here to address these important issues, not necessarily to get them out of here real fast because when you do that, sometimes you do damage that is almost irreversible. Let's not do that today Madam Speaker. Let's be fair to all the Members and give us an opportunity to find out exactly what the effect of this 184  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 legislation might be. I think some people over her want to speak to this issue and we do appreciate your consideration to allow them that opportunity to do what they were elected here to do. Thank you."

"Thank you, Representative. Representative

Ackerman Ackerman: "Thank you, Madam Speaker. I move the previous question."

"Representative Ackerman has moved the question. All those in favor vote 'aye'... The Motion is to move the previous question, which is the Motion to reconsider. She will close after we vote on the to move the previous question. All those in favor will vote 'aye'; all those opposed will vote 'nay'. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk please take the record. On this Motion there are 63 voting 'yes', 52 voting 'no', and 0 voting 'present'. Motion is carried. Representative Flowers to close."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, two of the previous Speakers on the other side of the aisle who made reference to the fact that the Bill went out with 115 votes. That was the intension, Sir. My intension was not to vote against the Bill. My intensions was to get the opportunity to ask some questions that would concern me in regards to the thousands of missing children in the State of Illinois. We are 100% despite the fact that this is a piece mill effect, we are 100% in support of what the Sponsor of the Bill is trying to do. At least she is making an initiative. It's not a comprehensive approach, but whatever it is the piece mill we will accept it. Thank you very much. Madam Speaker, I do withdraw my Motion." 185  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"The Motion is withdrawn. Representative Flowers. March 23, 1995 Thank you, We will continue on Third Reading. Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 385."

"House Bill 385, a Bill for an Act amending the State Revenue Sharing Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"The Chair recognizes Representative Brady."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen. This is a Bill which deals with a community college in this state that was forced to form due to action on the part of the legislature in 1990. Heartland Community College was forced to form in this state and having done so, it is the only community college that does not share in the Corporate Personal Property Replacement Tax. This costs Heartland Community College an estimate of about $400,000 per year. This personal property placement tax is split between Cook County and the rest of the state. This would have absolutely no effect on Cook County. It would effect those taxing areas and the rest of the state. There is approximately 6800 of those that share and over $700,000,000. The cost to each Body would be relatively insignificant in that it would average about $70 a year while providing equitable funding for Heartland Community College. I would ask this Body to consider support of this legislative matter. I would inform the Body that this is approved by the State Board of Higher Education, the Community College Trustees Association as well as the Community College Board."

"Thank you. Is there any discussion. The Lady from Cook, Representative Currie." 186  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

March 23, 1995 "Thank you, Speaker and Members of the House. I rise in opposition to House Bill 385. First for the record, the information that says that it would not effect the dollars of the...the distribution of Personal Property Replacement Tax Revenue in Cook County is not accurate. If we expand the beneficiaries of the Personal Property Replacement Tax to include this community college, the dollars will come out of every other taxing district that now accesses those moneys. I can appreciate that newly formed local governments those that were formed since the initiation of the Personal Property Replacement Tax, would like to have a share in those proceeds to. I do appreciate that. The problem is that the formula that created the personal property replacement tax was fixed in time. If we open up that Revenue test to all other new comers we will soon find that the schools, the libraries, the park district, the cities that depend on the personal property replacement tax revenues are going to get a decreasing share of that fixed sum of money. This is of course only one Community College that's a subject of House Bill 385, but I'm here to tell you that next year we will see a lot of new libraries, a lot of new park boards, a lot of new communities coming in for their share of the pot, too. If we say yes tonight it will be very difficult to say no tomorrow. And if you consult with those entities that now are able to access those dollars, you will find a very negative response to the proposal that we reopen the question. If we want to reopen the question maybe it's time to do something to expand the dollars that are in the personal property replacement tax pot, but no one is making that suggestion today. I can appreciate why this Community College would like a bit of this action, would like a piece of this pie, 187  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 but I think that we are making real trouble for the local communities , the local taxing districts that have access to those Revenues if we undo the agreement that was made in 1980. That's a 15 year agreement. We haven't abrogated it yet, and I think it would be a mistake for us to start with passage of House Bill 385 tonight. The right vote unfortunately is a 'no' vote."

"Thank you, Representative. The Gentleman from Washington, Representative Deering."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, I really didn't hear all the remarks the former Speaker had...or I'm sorry the previous Speaker had. But before I start off my line of questioning here, one question as to the merits of this Bill. I see that this is a Brady Bill. Is there a waiting period in this Bill?"

"Representative Brady."

"There has been a long waiting period for Heartland Community College." Speaker Biggert$: M"Representative Deering."

"Representative, with due respect, if we allow this Community College to tap this fund that was established after the personal property taxes we eliminated, is it not true that there would be 200...a possibility of 200 additional taxing districts that were created after July the first '79 that may want to come in and get this? Aren't we opening up a window that would impact...have a statewide impact to the tune of several million dollars?"

"Representative Brady."

"Representative Deering, your question is, are there approximately 200 additional districts that don't receive 188  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 the Corporate Personal Private Replacement Tax right now, the answer would be 'yes'. The difference here is that unlike the rest of those taxing districts, Heartland Community College is funded by the State of Illinois under a formula driven by the State of Illinois. And because it is the only Community College that does not share in the Corporate Personal Property Replacement Tax, but yet the funding formulas driven by the state, it creates and inequality and the difference between the rest of those taxing bodies in Heartland deals with the funding formula that we use to fund community colleges throughout the state. The point being that if it isn't equitably created by putting on the level playing field that the funding formula deals with and presumes we have to do other things presumably to change it so that all is equal. To answer your question and your question about 200, that also ties into a statement that Representative Currie made and it is our clear research that the dollars in the Corporate Personal Property Replacement Tax are first divided between Cook and the rest of the state and then they are divided amongst the taxing bodies to receive that. So I don't believe that Representative Currie is correct. Our research indicates such."

"Representative Deering."

"Well, Representative, I understand your concern about the funding and the formula with the the corporate tax that is in there, but it's my understanding that it doesn't matter if a taxing district doesn't have any corporate property taxes within it. Any taxing district that was established after this date and this Bill could tap in or theoretically come in to the legislature and have the authority or try to get the authority to tap into this 189  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 fund. Is that not correct?"

"Representative Brady."

"Representative, to answer your question, anyone can come and apply to the legislature for the opportunity to tap into those funds. You are correct. The difference is I believe, in a significant difference is that this community college is funded by the State of Illinois by a formula driven funding mechanism. That mechanism is to provide equitable funding for all Community Colleges throughout the state. In order to maintain the 'urnethist' of that formula we need to put them on a level playing field in the first place which would allow them to share in this fund."

"Representative Deering."

"Well thank you, Representative. I understand your concern on what you are trying to do here. I don't know if this is a good idea where we may open this up and try to put in a lot of open ended liability. Perhaps maybe we can address this issue more for your community college and you know I represent several colleges because I don't have one whole district...Community College district in my Representative district, but maybe if we would fund elementary and secondary education and higher ed at higher levels, maybe we could deep this fund in tact and keep it for this taxing districts that we in place and I thank you for your time."

"Thank you. The Representative from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. Will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will.'

"Representative Brady, I apologize if I'm being But what this seeks to redundant I was in a conversation. do is allow access to that fund. Is that correct?" 190  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Brady."

"That is correct."

"Representative Granberg."

"And how many institutions Representative?

"Representative Brady." March 23, 1995 would that impact,

"Representative, there are 6800 bodies that receive benefit from this throughout the whole state."

"Representative Granberg."

"Thank you. But in your Bill I believe it said say date specific. How many institutions would this impact with the passage of your legislation."

"Representative Brady."

"It would impact only one community college, Heartland Community College, from an increase in Revenue, Representative."

"Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Representative, and by way of historical background when was the personal property tax abolished? Do you remember that?"

"Representative Brady."

"Around 1977."

"Representative Granberg."

"Eighteen seventy-seven did you say?"

"Representative Brady."

"No, Representative, 1977."

"I thought that is what you meant. So all of the taxing district in existence at that time are granfathered in in this fund. Is that correct, Representative?"

"Representative Brady."

"Would you repeat your question?" 191  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Granberg."

"So all the taxing districts that were in existence at that time and lost money because of that action, they were grandfathered in So they receive funds under this allocation. Is that correct?"

"Representative Brady."

"My understanding is that the intent of the repeal of the Corporate Personal Property Tax was to repeal it and substitute it with a corporate tax of about 1.5% which goes into the fund to replace the loss in revenue."

"Representative Granberg."

"Representative, I believe that amount though is fixed in time and the taxing districts that were in existence in that point in time were also fixed. They were grandfathered in. Is that not correct?"

"Representative Brady."

"That's correct."

"Representative Granberg."

"So, Representative, I'm just concerned. If we do this, this would open that fund up which has a limited amount. Isn't that correct? It would open it up for Heartland. Now isn't...aren't there approximately 200 new taxing districts that have come into existence since 1979?"

"Representative Brady."

"As I previously indicated to Representative Deering, that is correct."

"Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Representative. Now if we open it up for Heartland, wouldn't it be awfully difficult to not open it up for all these other taxing districts which would take funds away. take a limited amount of dollars away from our current taxing districts?" 192  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995

"Representative Brady."

"Let me first state that I have no opposition from current taxing districts. The Community College Trustee presidents, the Board of Higher Education and so on are all in support of this Bill. Secondly, your question is, would it not take moneys away. Yes it would take a very small amount of moneys away. Your third question is, aren't we not opening it up to these other districts. I don't believe so because this legislation is here because in 1990, the Illinois legislator tried to enforce the area that Heartland includes to form a district. They formed that district because the legislation made them do so. In so doing they are not privileged to this tax. Now we go back to the funding formula. Those other districts are not funded in the same way the community colleges are throughout the State of Illinois by a formula driven fund that we provide by state resources. I think in itself that's the difference. The other difference is the equitable playing field and the other difference is that the state forced this issue."

"Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Representative. So I am concerned, Representative. So if I represented Logan and Junior College in downstate Illinois down by Carbondale or if I represented Lincoln Land College here in Springfield or I represented Kaskaskia Junior College down by Centralia, if I vote for your legislation, I will now be taken dollars away from my own institutions. Isn't that correct?"

"Representative Brady."

"Everyone outside of Cook will share in this approximate $400,000 a year. If we divide the amount of the fund by the taxing districts that receive the fund, that's about 193  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 $70 on average and I remind you that the community college precedents and the Community College Trustees and the Community College Board as well as the Board of Higher Education fully supports this legislation."

"Representative Granberg, if you could bring it to a close."

"Thank you. Representative, I just had the concern because...I would have to go..."

"Can you just close?"

"I would have to go... To the Bill. I would have to go back to my district, Representative, or whoever represented Lincoln Land Junior College here in Springfield or the people who go to Lincoln Land or the people who go to Logan Junior College down by Carbondale or any Junior College in the State of Illinois or any Junior College in the city or all the Junior Colleges, all the parks, all of those taxing districts that were in existence who rely on this funding. We are going to have to back to our taxing districts and say we voted to reduce your funding. Now I'm not sure if that's a good idea and if I have to go back to my districts as Representative Poe or Representative Klingler or Representative Jones or others would have to do, we are going to have to explain why we voted to reduce our funding to give that to you and your Junior College. So I want to make sure I understand this because I'm the one who is going to have to explain why I reduced my own funding so I could help out Heartland Junior College. Thank you."

"Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. With due respect to Representative Brady, he's well intentioned, but I don't want to do that to my district and I'm sure others don't 194  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 either and so I would ask for a verification of this Roll Call."

"Thank you. Representative Black. I'm sorry. The Representative from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, you indicated that Cook County is not effected by this. Can you explain that?"

"Representative Brady."

"Yes, Representative. The way I understand the law, Cook County receives about 51.65% of the total fund. The rest of the state receives 48.35%. The fund is divided and then distributed amongst the taxing bodies that were in effect when the replacement tax took effect."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, I didn't really understand why then that does not effect Cook. So your telling me that the money you're talking about here comes only out of the downstate portion? But you do take this off the top of the downstate portion thus reducing the allocations to all of the other community colleges downstate. Isn't that right?"

"Representative Brady."

"Representative, it effects every taxing district that receives it and as I said earlier, it would cost each taxing district on average approximately $70 per year. It's taken, not off the top, but they just become part of the entire share."

"Representative Lang."

"Have you checked with all these other taxing bodies to see if they are willing to give up $70 so that you can give it 195  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 to you Community College?"

"Representative Brady."

"No, Representative, but we went through the process with this Bill. We went through the Committee process and there was no opposition."

"Representative Lang."

"So did you expect thousands of local communities to come here over that $70 and testify for or against your Bill?"

"Representative Brady."

"My expectation would be if it's as severe a situation as you suggest, yes."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, so let me see if I understand what's going on here. What you have here is a piece of special legislation for one community college in Illinois and you want all these other communities, all these other governmental units to take a hit so that your Community College can fill out a budget gap. Is that really what we have here?"

"Representative Brady."

"Representative, it's my intension that the State of Illinois forced this community college to form. The State of Illinois has attempted through it's funding formula to provide and equitable playing field of funding for all Community Colleges throughout this state. Because of this oversight in this funding when they forced the community college to form, they were unable to receive this. If we are going to continue to provide equitable funding from the state through the Community College system throughout this state, it would be necessary to readdress the funding formula. Because the funding formula is based on everyone receiving a share of the Corporate Personal Property Replacement Tax. So, the answer to your question is, yes 196  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 it is special legislation. It's special legislation that was caused because this legislative Body forced this area to form a community college."

"Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Are you aware that special legislation is unconstitutional, Representative?"

"Representative Brady."

"Representative, I don't know of any special legislation...and legislation that we pass that isn't special legislation. So I find that hard to believe."

"Representative Lang."

"Well, I won't belabor the point too much, but you indicated that it was special legislation because it only effects your school. You said it was special legislation. You know that special legislation is unconstitutional, but let's go on. Aren't you opening up a can of worms here. Isn't it possible that every government unit formed after 1979 will come here with flocks of Bills asking for changes just as you have asked for?"

"Representative Brady."

"I don't believe so, Representative, and as I explained earlier, the difference here is that this is the only community college forced to form. Those other units of government were not forced to form. It was forced to form by the State of Illinois. The State of Illinois has attempted to provide equitable level plain field funding for all Community Colleges. This is a unique situation cause by legislation in 1990 forcing us. Completely unique from anybody else. Now the purpose of the legislation is just to provide an equitable level of funding for this community college which this Body deemed necessary to force deform." 197  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"Representative Lang, your time is just about Lang: up." "Doesn't the state now provide for community colleges or a sort of disproportionate share, the same kind of help they do through the school aide formula for elementary and secondary education?"

"Representative Brady."

"Representative, yes they do. But as I said earlier, before they go into that funding formula, it is presumed that everyone receives a share of the Corporate Personal Property Replacement Tax. So..."

"Representative Brady are you finished."

"The answer to you question is yes, it doesn't deal with the problem at hand."

"The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Vermillion, Representative Black."

"Thank you very much, Madam Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I truly on this occasion compliment my colleagues in the House on the caliber of questions and the level of debate because this is a very complicated issue. There isn't any question about that. And I would like to address that if the Gentleman would yield for a question or two."

"The Representative says he will."

"Thank you. Representative Brady, the legislation appears to me on page 8 of the Bill to be very carefully drafted, that says a community college district created after July 1 of '79, it's tax base should thereafter be the sum of the personal property tax collected for the 1977 tax year et cetera. So this is really...the legislation is really limited to community colleges specifically. Anybody else coming in would have to seek the same legislative wavers. 198  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 Isn't that your interpretation?"

"Representative Brady."

"Yes it is. Thank you."

"Representative Black."

"Yes, thank you very much, Madam Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I think that's at the heart of the issue. This is the last community college district that can be formed in the State of Illinois. In the McLean County area, this was the last amount of territory and land that was not in a community college district. Now, the State of Illinois, through the General Assembly, told them the unaffiliated territory, that if you did not create a community college district by a certain period of time, you would then be annexed into a community college district. The people in Representative Brady's area decided to form a community college called Heartland Community College. Now all they're asking to do in this legislation is be treated the same as all community colleges in the State of Illinois. Now one thing you have to remember, this doesn't affect Cook County at all. In fact, maybe someday we ought to revisit. We should revisit how the personal property replacement tax is apportioned in the State of Illinois. Fifty-one point sixty-five percent of the personal property replacement tax in Illinois goes to Cook County. Forty-eight percent is divvied up among all the other counties in the State of Illinois, so it's certainly not going to have any impact on Cook County. What you have to realize in this legislation and what makes it so complicated, the existing community college funding formula is very similar to the elementary and secondary schools. You combine your property tax collection. You combine your personal property replacement tax revenue to calculate a 199  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 revenue base and then the State of Illinois through general taxes supplements an amount per pupil to bring the college to a standard level. The community college formula that Heartland has to work under assumes that Heartland receives the replacement tax revenue and they do not. Now that isn't fair and it isn't equitable. You're not creating a new tax. You're not imposing a new tax. You're simply treating the newest and the last community college that can be...public community college that can be formed in Illinois, you're putting them, grandfathering if you will, under the original law and I think it was the intent of that law that the community colleges be funded under that basis. It only makes good sense to me to put Heartland Community College on the same playing field that every community college in this state is under. They are operating under a penalty because the formula assumes they're getting the personal property replacement tax and they are not and may I say, may I say that the Gentleman has a district that certainly is booming and it's only fair that they get their share of the personal property replacement tax. There is no new tax here. You're not placing a tax on anyone. You're simply treating, in this case, Heartland Community College, the same as all of the other public community colleges in the district. It is complicated. I think the Gentleman has crafted a very narrowly defined Bill. He's to be commended. It's an issue of fairness and equity and I intend to support the Gentleman's Bill."

"The Gentleman from Tazewell, Representative Ackerman."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker, I move the previous question." 200  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"The Representative from Tazewell moves the previous question. All those in favor vote 'aye'; all those opposed vote 'nay'. Voting is open. This is final... Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On the Motion, there are 62 'ayes', 53 'noes', 0 voting 'present'. The Motion is carried. Representative Brady to close."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker and thank you, Ladies and Gentlemen. I, too, must complement everyone on the degree of questioning. This is a very serious issue, although I do think it is an equitable issue. It's an issue that the state created enforcing the community college to force to form. It will not in my impression open up the door for anything else. It is very specific that it only deals with one last territory that is not receiving this benefit and I ask you for an 'aye' vote. Thank you."

"Thank you. The question is, 'Shall House Bill 385 pass?' All those in favor vote 'aye'; all those opposed vote 'nay'. The voting is open. This is final action. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, please take the record. On this question, there are 49 voting 'aye', 63 voting 'nay'. Representative Brady."

"Madam Speaker, I would request that this Bill be put on Postponed Consideration."

"Three voting 'present'. Are you requesting verification? Representative Lang, would you like a verification? Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, thank you, Madam Speaker. I had earlier requested a verification and I would like to persist in that Motion, please ma'am." 201  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 'noes', 0 voting 'present'. Mr. Clerk, please take the record. There are 64 'ayes', 51 'noes', and 0 voting 'present'. The Chair's sustained. Mr. Clerk, please read House Bill 447. House Bill 447, Representative Rutherford."

"House Bill #447, a Bill for an Act that amends the Illinois Promotion Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"The Chair recognizes Representative Rutherford on House Bill 447."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. I present to you, House Bill 447. It brings in five various Amendments into it, raising the DCCA grant level for tourism from $40,000 to $100,000, it provides for the Department of Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities to provide their checks directly to the county treasurers, it provides for Central Management Services subrogation prerogatives, it provides for Department of Corrections to provide alcoholic beverages in their facility for their wardens, it provides for the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs' Auditor General report. I'd ask for a favorable Roll Call."

"Thank you, Representative. Is there any discussion? The Chair recognizes the Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't know who is making all that noise? This time it wasn't me. Madam Speaker, a point of order."

"State your point."

"Thank you very much. Madam Speaker, the rules clearly state that any Member may move to verify any vote. On this last vote to...which was on the Board, that said Mr. 203  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 Deering's Motion, shall the Chair be sustained, at least 10 people on our side of the aisle asked for a verification. Madam Speaker, you chose to ignore that and then dumped the Roll Call off the Board. Madam Speaker, you violated your own rules. What do you intend to do about that?"

"Thank you, Mr. Lang. Do you wish to speak to the Bill?"

"Madam Speaker, I'm entitled to a response to my point of order."

"I guess, Mr. Lang, that with all the noise, I could not hear what you said. I apologize. Representative Lang, to the Bill."

"No, I'm still on my point of order, Madam Speaker. Are you telling this Body you didn't hear the loud voices on this side of the aisle asking for a verification?"

"I made my statement, Mr. Lang. Would you like to talk to the Bill?"

"Madam Speaker, I'm not ready to speak to the Bill. I'm on a point of order. Are you now telling me I don't have the right to make a point of order or do I have the right? Do we have the right to make a point of order here?"

"I just gave you that right, Mr. Lang. I just gave you that right and you stated your point of order and I gave you an answer. Is there anyone that would like to discuss House Bill 447? Proceed, Representative Lang."

"Thank you. Proceeding back to my point of order, Madam Speaker, I don't ..."

"Is there anyone that would like to speak to the Bill? The Representative from St. Claire, Representative Hoffman."

"Yes, Madam Speaker, I think the issue... I would like to make a point of order, also. I think the issue is, 204  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day Madam Speaker, March 23, 1995 if we ask for a verification, are we entitled to one? Under what rule are we not entitled to a verification, Madam Speaker? Inquiry, Madam Speaker, under what rule are we not entitled to a verification?"

"The Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg, do you wish to speak to the Bill?"

"Thank you, Madam Speaker, are you finished with Representative Hoffman's inquiry?"

"Would you like to speak to the Bill, Representative Granberg?"

"I didn't, Madam Speaker, I did not want to interfere with Representative Hoffman's inquiry. Have you addressed his question?"

"We're considering right now, House Bill 447. Representative Mulligan, for what purpose do you rise?"

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield for a question, please?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Rutherford, this looks like just a wonderful Bill. Would you explain to me what it does?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. I did go through it in great detail earlier amongst the roaring, but I would be delighted to do that one more time. It basically is a consolidation of a number of efforts by various state agencies. One of them is, it would raise the level of grant for tourism from a threshold of $40,000 to $100,000. It would provide for a number of provisions to be implemented from an Auditor General's report with regards to the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs. It would allow that beer could be served in specific facilities on state properties. It would provide for 205  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day disbursements of Department March 23, 1995 of Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities checks could go directly to the county providers and the fifth portion is, it would provide for the Central Management Services to be able to provide for subrogation in the Workmans' Compensation. I would ask for a favorable Roll Call."

"Representative Mulligan."

"Representative Rutherford, I think that sounds very good and I certainly will support your Bill. Thank you very much."

"Representative Pugh."

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield for a couple of questions?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, under this legislation, this is, did tourism department that resulted from the Build Illinois Act under the former Governor Thompson, am I correct?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Well, I'm not quite sure, Representative, that it came out under the Build Illinois Act. There's a section within the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs dealing with awards for tourism grants."

"Representative Pugh."

"My first question has to do with how does the Workers' Compensation under the Department of Central Management Services relate to the Department of Tourism and the increasing of tourism grants?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"It does not."

"Representative Pugh."

"The genesis of the legislation, can you explain why we would like to increase the amount of the tourism grant from 206  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 $40,000 to $100,000 and if this is only applicable to rural communities?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"The reason that the grant level is being requested to raise from $40,000 to $100,000 is actually coming from a request from the tourism industry in Illinois. As inflation grows and as promotion activities grow and the costs for that continue to grow, the grant level is deemed to be more appropriate to be at a higher threshold. This does not mean, though, that all grants can be at $100,000. What this does, Representative, is it allows the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs, through a competitive process of screening the application, to award these grants to the various entities to have the option from anywhere up to $40,000 and now, if we pass this, up to $100,000. And, Representative, no, it does not apply just to rural communities."

"Representative Pugh."

"Am I correct in assuming that a for-profit marketing agency could apply for these grants or are they ..."

"Representative Rutherford. I'm sorry, Representative Pugh."

"Or are they restricted to not-for-profit organizations, 501C3 organizations?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"I appreciate that question, Representative, because that's a very good one. No for-profit companies cannot apply for the grants. For-profit companies can apply for loans from the department of which they do have to pay those back. The not-for-profits can apply for the actual grants from the department, Representative."

"Representative Pugh." 207  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"When applying March 23, 1995 Is for these dollars, is it a competitive bid process or who determines, which department determines? it the Department of Central Management Services or the Department of Tourism that determines who receives these dollars?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Yes, Representative, it's made up of a screening Committee of experts in the tourism industry who have experience throughout the state on the best use of state dollars. It is a competitive bid process where various communities and agencies and entities can apply for it. It depends on the amount of dollars available as to how many awards can be made, but it is on a competitive basis."

"Representative Pugh."

"So, what can you explain to me the role of the Department of the Commerce and Community Affairs in this process?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Yes, Representative, the Division of Tourism is a part of the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs."

"Representative Pugh."

"And what is the interest rate on the loan? What portion, how much, we're talking about increasing the loans, how many loans, how much money? Is this money part of DCCA'S budget or is it ...?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Yes, Representative, the funds are a part of the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs appropriation through the division of tourism. The interest rates that are loaned to the private companies are at a competitive rate."

"Representative Pugh, please draw your remarks 208  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day to a close."

"How much money... What portion of DCCA's budget is going to be appropriated to this particular program?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Representative. We're checking out in just one moment."

"Representative Pugh, I've given you an additional minute. Representative Rutherford."

"Representative, it's my understanding that the grant program is approximately $1,000,000 in the appropriation of the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs."

"Representative Pugh."

"So, in essence, this requires an increase in DCCA's overall budget?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"No, Representative, it does not call for an increase in the appropriation. Basically, what we're saying if it's approximately $1,000,000, of that $1,000,000, it now can be awarded in grants up to $100,000."

"Representative Pugh."

"Would any of these, would these dollars be used for any new construction or is it restricted to public infrastructure?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Representative, the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs would not ... "

"Representative Rutherford."

"Representative, the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs would not be providing for the new construction. A not-for-profit, a community or someone like that, that applies for a grant and is awarded for the department could possibly use some of those funds for 209  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 construction projects, but that's not done by the department, itself, and that would be a part of a 50/50 match."

"The Gentleman from Bureau, Representative Mautino. The Lady from Cook, Representative Ronen."

"Thank you, Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative, you came before the Elections in State Government Committee many different times. Do you remember how many?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, minority spokesperson Ronen. I don't recall the number, but I was there every single week of your Committee."

"Representative Ronen."

"Originally, I thought your Bill was a rather straightforward one, but now as I'm going through all the different Amendments, I'm finding that maybe I don't really understand what your final goal is. The initial purpose of your Bill is to raise the level of the maximum amount of grants that can be given to $100,000. Is that correct?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Yes, Representative, that is correct. That was the original Bill, but as you'll recall, there were three Amendments in which you were a part of the debate and I appreciate you bringing out some good points to that and also, ultimately supported have gone on to this so we have broadened the scope of the piece of legislation a bit."

"Representative Ronen."

"Could you just briefly explain for us what those Amendments do and specifically that which relates to the changes made in the Liquor Control Act of 1934?" 210  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Representative, I will go through them. There's approximately five points to this and this will be the third time I've done that, but I do appreciate... It's a little noisy on your side of the aisle. Number one, it increases the threshold for the opportunity of grants and awards from $40,000 to $100,000 by the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs. Second point, and there are many fine points within that. I will go into those if you'd like to, but it basically implements a report from the Auditor General's office with regards to the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs consolidating some offices, eliminating some boards, so forth and so on. I will go back to the alcohol beverage in just a moment. Fourth point in it deals with the disbursement of checks from the Department of Mental Health Developmental Disabilities. What that says is that the agency, rather than sending the checks directly to the county treasurer, that those checks would go directly to the county mental health facility. This is a recommendation from DMHDD. The fifth point to it deals with the subrogation part of workmans' compensation. Going back now to the Liquor Control Act, what this does, it would allow under the Liquor Control Act, that alcoholic beverages could be served in the private residence, the private personal residences of Department of Corrections employees. And let me just give you the genesis of that because I think that's the bottom line of maybe where this should go. The genesis to this is there are what there are called warden cabins. These are warden cottages along the river in Pontiac or in Livingston County that are used for Sheriffs' Association meetings, used for AFSCME Union picnics, used for the 211  37th Legislative Day Economic STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE Development Council March 23, 1995 meetings. They have barbecues, bratwurst, and so forth. This would allow them to be able to have a keg of beer there."

"Can we have some order in the Chamber, please, so that the Representatives can hear the questions? Representative Ronen."

"Thank you, Representative, for that explanation. I do appreciate that and this Bill, this current Bill has nothing to do with making it more likely that dead persons won't get elected on the ballot? That's a different Bill, I presume?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Representative, that is a different Bill and if the Body so wills, I'm looking forward to bringing that to you as well."

"Representative Ronen."

"I look forward to that, also. Thank you for you patience, Representative."

"The Representative from Cook, Representative Erwin: Erwin." "Thank you, Madam Speaker. Representative Rutherford, I just rise in support of your efforts to increase tourism funds. What I'd like to know as well as you may have answered this before, do you know the total appropriation in the tourism fund?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Representative, the entire, and again I don't have the specific dollars, but let me give it to you in general. The entire division of tourism within DCCA is well over $10,000,000. That includes the advertising fund, the campaign fund, and so forth. What we're talking about here is the grant and awards program. That is 212  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 37th Legislative Day approximately $1,000,000 if the appropriation cycle goes through as we anticipate."

"Representative Erwin."

"Thank you, I appreciate that. So when community organizations, let's say the village of Oak Park for instance, if they were to do a major event or an attraction on Frank Lloyd Wright, they would apply to the tourism fund for an attraction grant. Would that be correct?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Yes, it is, Representative. There are certain criterion that they would need to follow, guidelines on what they can do to receive the awards. Some of them are direct awards to not-for-profits, like the community. Some of them are loans, for example, to private entities, but you are absolutely correct, Representative."

"Representative Erwin."

"Thank you, Representative Rutherford. I would appreciate joining you on this Bill and I might add that I think the state needs to do more and make a greater investment in the tourism fund. The amount of dollars that tourism brings to our economy is a significant one and I would hope that as we look for additional state dollars, we would be willing to commit more to the tourism fund so that indeed we can attract those out-of-state folks to come in and spend lots of money in your district and in my district and help us pay for the services we need, so I'd appreciate becoming a cosponsor with you. Thank you."

"Representative Rutherford."

"Representative Erwin, consider it done, hyphenated or co."

"The Gentleman from Knox, Representative Moffitt." 213  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day

"Thank you, Madam Speaker. March 23, 1995 Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Rutherford, I trust that it's not a requirement that I ask the questions as fast as what you answered them. Is that correct?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"I don't have to ask the questions as fast as which you answer them do I? Can I talk slower? Is that alright? First question, are there any opponents on this?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Well, there are no opponents that showed up in Committee. There's no opponents that talked to me. I'm not quite sure that as far as any associations or entities, there's no one who's filed in opposition to this."

"Representative Moffitt."

"Just a question on the fact that you're not, it's changing it so disbursements are not made directly to the county treasurer. I guess I'm not sure why that change is needed. Are you saying that the county is not responsible for those funds, then?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"No, that's not what we're saying. This actually comes from impetus of the County Treasurer's Association. Let me walk you through this, very briefly. Today, the Department of Mental Health Developmental Disabilities, when they cut a check that's paid out to the Public Health Board or to the Community Health Board, today, that check must go to the county treasurer. The county treasurer then must take that warrant and go back to that county mental health facility, ask if this is correct. If it is correct, it then goes back to the county treasurer. At that point, it is then deposited. What we're doing is we're trying to 214  37th Legislative Day STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE March 23, 1995 circumvent some of the bureaucracy and paperwork that goes through there. The second point is confidentiality. These checks and these notices have on them the names of people who are HIV positive. They have the names of people who have certain mental illnesses and so forth. So, from a confidentiality standpoint, the county treasurers' also believe that it's also best to remove them from the loop. The monies are still deposited within the county treasury, but it's just a vehicle that they go through to get to that point."

"Representative Moffitt."

"Thank you, I appreciate that very much. Just the increased appropriation, increased funding is coming from savings that you're saying this is going to come about, that's where you're getting this additional money? How are you getting you're additional money? Is it from the savings that you're showing on the tourism grants?"

"Speaker Daniels in the Chair."

"Thank you, Thank you. Representative Rutherford, I noticed you're dressing up now. Representative Rutherford, can you answer the question?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's nice to be with you. Representative Moffitt, to answer your question, the amount of money with regards going to the tourism fund is not increased, is not decreased. The overall amount of money within that fund stays the same. What this does, this raises the threshold, the maximum level that the Department can award if they decided to go up higher, it could go up to as much as $100,000 per award, but the overall money within the department is still the same."

"Okay, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, we have 22 Bills to 215  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995 complete this evening. The decision is yours as to how long we stay. That's fine, I'm here as long as you are, but we're going to be there if that's what you want. It's up to you, but we're going to have to have some quiet. We're going to have to run this properly, so, Representative Moffitt."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and thank you, Representative. I appreciate you answering those questions and I'm ready to vote and anxious to vote in favor of this. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Clinton, Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, a parliamentary inquiry. I believe ..."

"The Gentlemen have your attention, please."

"Parliamentary inquiry, Sir. Amendment #1 amends the Civil Administrative Code. Amendment #3 amends the Civil Administrative Code and also amends the Liquor Control Act. The underlying Bill amends the Illinois Promotion Act. Would those Amendments be in order, Mr. Speaker?"

"We'll look at it, just give us a second. Parliamentarian's reviewed your question, Sir, and it's ruled germane. Just as it was dealt with, as you know in Committee, that question was raised and the issue was ruled germane in Committee. Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was not in that Committee, Sir. I did not know that issue was brought up before the Chairman of that Committee. Mr. Speaker, what is the rationale, though, for my own understanding, since I raised that issue on the Floor, Sir, and I was not present in Committee?"

"That it is germane."

"And the reason, Sir?" 216  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"That it is appropriately drafted and part of the Bill. Representative Granberg."

"It's my understanding there was not a ruling on whether these Amendments were, in fact, germaned in Committee, Mr. Speaker."

"I was advised there was, but even if there wasn't, that's the ruling of the Chair. Representative Granberg."

"So, Mr. Speaker, why are these Amendments germane to the underlying Bill, Sir? They deal with the Civil Administrative Code, Sir."

"We're not going to enter a debate with the Chair. You heard the Chair's ruling. You have an option, Sir. You may move to override the ruling of the Chair if that's your desire. Is that your desire? Representative Granberg."

"Mr. Speaker, I'm hesitant to do that, Sir. I'm asking what the rationale is before I would attempt to override the Chair and we have gone through this in years past and we would always have a reason whether the Amendments were germane. You may not have liked the reasons, Sir, but there was always a reason."

"As I said, it's been appropriately drawn and drafted in accordance with the Constitutional laws of the State of Illinois. So, further discussion on the Bill? Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What that the new parliamentarian, was that his interpretation?"

"Mr. Manions, the Assistant Parliamentarian, ruled that."

"Oh, the Assistant. Did he override the parliamentarian?" 217  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day March 23, 1995

"No, we asked him for the ruling because we want to make sure that he is broken in properly so he can take over on occasion. Gentlemen. Okay, Mr. Granberg."

"Thank you. First of all, will the Gentleman yield?"

"He indicates he will."

"Representative Rutherford, I'm sorry, Rutherford, I thought you put your coat on for the new Speaker. Now you've gone back to your old style. You've stated that this increases the amount that can be dispensed under the grant program from I believe, $40,000 to $100,000. Will this lower the number of grants that can be awarded by actually increasing the amount?"

"Representative Rutherford."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Representative, as I explained to Representative Pugh earlier, that the total amount of money within the fund is going to stay the same as is appropriated by the General Assembly. So, the amount, the number of grants to be awarded is all going to be depended upon the size and level of those grants. If every grant was raised to the maximum amount, mathematics would say that it would decrease that number, but that isn't necessarily going to be the case."

"Representative Granberg."

"Thank you, Mr. Rutherford. If that was the case, if the number of grants are in fact reduced, in particularly for Southern Illinois, we're very concerned. We don't have these large enterprises that are in search of $100,000 grants, so that could very well have an adverse impact upon us. And secondly, Sir, can these grants be made to not-for-profit corporations, as well?"

"Okay, Ladies and Gentlemen, can we break up the caucuses, please? Ladies and Gentlemen. Representative 218  STATE OF ILLINOIS 89TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 37th Legislative Day Rutherford."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. available to March 23, 1995 Representative Granberg, I've answered that question now three times, but I would be glad to do it for the fourth. As far as the amount that is be awarded, that they are eligible to be awarded to not-for-profit entities. If I could also respond in regards to the comment about Southern Illinois, I consider myself to be basically a Central Illinois type of a person and in regards to the ability to be able have grants awarded there, I actually see this as an enhancement, an opportunity for us to be able to go into the type of projects that we'd like to have in Central Illinois." to