Illinois House Floor Debate — April 2, 1998

"Good morning, Mr. Hartke. First Bill will be... The House shall come to order. The Members shall be in their chairs. We shall be led in prayer to day by Lee Crawford the Assistant Pastor of the Victory Temple Church in Springfield. The guests in the gallery may wish to rise and join us in the invocation."

Pastor Crawford: "May we lift our hearts. Most gracious and eternal God, creator of all of us, from whom cometh all, all of our help and all of our blessings. Look upon us gathered here with Your favor and direct us in all of our actions. Grant us vigilant hearts. Give us minds to know thee, diligence to seek thee, and wisdom to find You. Sanctify us, purify us with Your presence. Bless us with Your might. Assist us with Your council of wisdom, that all of our endeavors may begin with You, and through You that our day may be blessed, this we pray. Amen."

"We shall be led in the Pledge of Allegiance by Representative Black."

Black - et al: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Speaker Madigan: "Roll Call for Attendance. Redemption. Redemption. Mr. Cross."

"All I said was you're rewarding bad behavior, Mr. Speaker. By the way, are the pizzas here yet? We do have some excused absences. Some people went home hungry last night and didn't come back. Representative Wood and Representative Wojcik are both excused. Thank you."

"Let the record reflect those excused absences. Representative Currie."

"Thank you, Speaker. Please let the record show there 1  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 are no excused absences among House Democrats today."

"Mr. Clerk, take the record. There being 116 Members responding the to the Attendance Roll Call, there is a quorum present. Mr. Clerk. Mr. Kubik, do you have a Bill that you wish to call? What's your number? Twenty eight forty two."

"Why don't we try 3406."

"Thirty four zero six. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

Clerk Rossi: "House Bill 3406, a Bill for an Act to amend the Revenue Anticipation Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Mr. Kubik."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. House Bill 3406 deals with the Rural Bond Bank. This Bill does a couple of things. Let me tell what the major portions of this Bill, as Amended do. First of all, what it does is, it adds Cook County to the collar county portion of the Rural Bond Bank. As many of you know, the Rural Bond Bank has two components; there is a Rural Bond Bank for the collar counties, and there's a Rural Bond Bank for the rest of the state. This Bill would include Cook County in the apportion with the collar counties. In addition to that, this Bill would increase the ability of the bond bank to authorize loans up to 200 million for downstate... the downstate portion and 50 million for the collar counties. So, it would increase the amount of bonds for the bond bank. And finally, it would allow the bond bank to issue bonds without having to go to the Governor for... for a sign off. Incidentally, we've talked to the Governor's office, they are not opposed to that provision. That's essentially what the Bill does and I'd be happy to 2  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 respond to any questions that any of you may have and I would appreciate your support. Before I finish, let me say, I think this is a Bill that helps both downstate and the suburban and Chicago areas of the state. So, thank you very much Mr. Speaker, and I'd be happy to respond to questions."

"Mr. Mautino."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sponsor yield?"

"Sponsor yields."

"Representative, this... In this legislation, your intent is to allow Cook County into the portion of the funding which we did last year when we allowed the collars in as well. So, I believe it was $25 million of which they used about four million. Now, you're raising that up to 50 million in authority and saying that Cook County and the collar counties cannot go above that level."

"Correct. Representative, as you may recall, under... the current law allows for $25 million worth of bonds to be issued for the collar counties and 150 downstate. What this Bill would do, is not upset the balance between the collars and downstate, it would increase the amount of authorization for downstate from 150 to 200 million, and it would increase the collars and include... add Cook County into the collar but also increase that total to 50 million. So, it's an increase for everybody, but the collars would now have suburban Cook involved in it as well."

"Thank you. I understand what you're doing with this, and also, that I believe for downstate we've used about 116 million of the 150 million authority, so..."

"That's correct."

"...this would bring us up, and it's been an excellent program. I know that a lot of the suburban and Cook County 3  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 municipalities have the ability to go to the market themselves at much better rates. So, they don't use their amounts as quickly, but it's been a great downstate program and I see that this is going to enhance it. I appreciate you offering the Bill, I intend to support it."

"Thank you."

"Mr. Black."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Sponsor yield?"

"Sponsor yields."

"Representative, the addition of the Rural Bond Bank, the expansion perhaps would be a better word, going into the County of Cook, is that a new provision? Is the Rural Bond Bank, currently, available to communities in the County of Cook?"

"It is not. That is the new provision."

"Is there... Can you give me some reasonable guarantee then that once we... once we allow the largest county in the state, and to say that it's rural in nature, except in some areas would be a stretch, it isn't going to draw down the availability of the funds for those counties for which the Rural Bond Bank was created?"

"Well, Representative, I don't think that's the case, and let me explain why. Under the current law, there are basically two bond banks; there's one for the collar counties for 25 million, and there's one for downstate, which you would be concerned about, which would be 150 million. The addition of Cook County into this process will impact the collar county portion of the bond bank. It would not affect the downstate. But we've tried to mitigate that by increasing the amount of bonds that can be issued. In downstate, it would be from 150 to 200 million and from the collar counties it would be 25 to 50 million. 4  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 If I could elaborate just a little more, Representative Mautino pointed out that about 116 million have been used downstate. So... so those resources are being utilized. So the addition will help downstate. I might point out, as I understand it, roughly $7 million have been used in the collar counties at this portion... at this time, I'm sorry. So I think the addition of Cook County and the increase will be sufficient so that nobody ends up a loser. And if I could make one other point before, and that is I would anticipate, Representative, that most communities in Cook County would not need to utilize this program because they have the resources to do, you know, what many of your downstate communities cannot. But there are some communities in suburban Cook County who don't have those resources that don't have that availability and those are the people we're trying to help."

"I assume that there is a safeguard in the Bill that if the communities in rural Cook access the bond money beyond what you're appropriation is, is there a stop provision so that they could not access then the general pool? In other words, they're capped at what you're establishing, correct?"

"As I understand it, Representative, that's in the current law. We're not changing that portion."

"Okay, okay. Thank you very much."

"Mr. Hartke."

"Representative Kubik, we talked about this in committee. This extension to Cook County now include with the collar counties, this bonding authority still is only available to those nonhome rule units of Government, and I think you have failed to mention that."

"Representative Hartke, as a matter of fact, 5  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Representative Lyons just came up to me and said, 'You should mention that.' You're absolutely correct and I did not... I did not point that out. Which, incidentally, would mean a number of communities in Cook County would not be eligible for this particular..."

"Right. Right and the only reason to bring Cook County in and claiming that Cook County is a rural county is to allow those small municipalities and the suburbs that are not home rule units to qualify for this bonding authority. The only thing that does concern me though is I don't see the need to raise the bonding authority at all because simply our track history says that that although it was available in the collar counties before so few units were... were... took use of it, and for good reason. But here we're raising that bonding authority and I don't know that that's absolutely necessary, but it's there. If it's not used, that's fine."

"Well, Representative, let me point out too, that the collar counties have had, only have had an opportunity to access this... these dollars since 1995. So it hasn't been as long as some of the downstate communities."

"Right."

"The increase in the bonding authority while it... I would not deny it helpesd the collar portion. It also helped downstate because 116 million of your 150 have already been... been utilized, so, you're... you're bumping up against the cap. So we felt that it would be a good idea to increase that amount as well."

"And it may bring on some downstate votes, as well, so I see no problem with this. I'm on board with you. Thank you."

"Mr. Lawfer." 6  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Mr. Chairman (sic-Mr. Speaker). Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Sponsor yields."

"Representative, I think you've answered a lot of my questions in regards to this, but overall, as we look at this, how will this improve... Will this improve the efficiency of the Rural Bond Bank if they can sell more bonds?"

"Well, Representative, I would think that that if we're increasing the authorization or the amount of bonds that would be available, I would think it would allow them to offer more loans... you know bonds... loans to communities. We're not touching the inner-workings of the bond bank process at all. We're just making the changes that I outlined in my remarks."

"Well, as I remember, when the Rural Bond Bank was set up, you know, it was to help rural communities, and so on, and I think it was a great idea. And the expansion of this into the collar counties, like you say, in 1995 and now into rural Cook, I think could benefit everybody, and so, I stand in support of this Bill. Thank you."

"Mr. Kubik to close."

"Mr. Speaker, I think this Bill has been very well debated. I would appreciate an 'aye' vote."

"Okay. The Gentleman moves for the passage of the Bill. Those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; those opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? There are 7 people not voting. Have all voted who wish? The Clerk shall take the record. On this question, there are 108 people voting 'aye', 0 voting 'no'. This Bill, having 7  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. Mr. Kubik, do you wish to call House Bill 2821? Mr. Kubik, 2821. Mr. Clerk read the Bill. 2821."

"Mr. Speaker."

"Yes, Mr. Kubik."

"I think we probably should wait on that Bill until we have a little..."

"More people?"

"Yeah."

Speaker Madigan: "Mr. Poe, do you have any Bills you wish to call? Mr. Bost, how about you? Okay. How about Mr. Lawfer? Do you have any Bills you wish to call? House Bill 2443, Mr. Capparelli. For what purpose does Mr. Hartke seek recognition?"

"If you were looking for Bills to call I have 3878, we could..."

"We'll get right back to you. Stay in your chair. 2443. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

Clerk Rossi: "House Bill 2443, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Pension Code and State Mandates Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Mr. Speaker, House Bill 2443 amends the Pension Code for the Chicago Park District. It's an Early Retirement Bill. It's a program that eligible employees are defined as certain employees who retire between August 31, 1998 and December 31, 1998. Eligible employees would be allowed to establish up to five years credit by making a contribution of 4.5%. This Bill was approved by Illinois Pension Committee, the... also, the regular committee. I know of no opposition. I would ask for a favorable roll call."

Speaker Madigan: "The Gentleman moves for the passage of the Bill. The Chair recognizes Mr. Cross." 8  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Sponsor yields."

"Representative, at one point this was a Shell Bill. Is that correct?"

"I beg your pardon."

"Was this a Shell Bill earlier?"

"Yeah. At one time it was, yes."

"And all it... not all it does it now..."

"It was never a Shell Bill. We had to go back for the Amendment. We stripped the Bill, and it had to go back to the Pension Laws Commission and then we put the Amendment back on."

"So this is an Early Retirement Program for employees, only employees of the Chicago Park District?"

"That's right."

"Why would we exclude other park districts?"

"I suppose they didn't ask for any. The Chicago Park District has given me this incentive at the present time."

"What's the cost to the Chicago Park District?"

"Over 10 years, $508,000."

"All right. Thank you very much."

Speaker Madigan: "Is there any further discussion? Mr. Capparelli to close."

"I would ask for a favorable roll call."

"The Gentleman moves for the passage of the Bill. Those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; those opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? There is one person not voting. The Clerk shall take the record. On this question, there are 88 'ayes', 27 'noes'. This Bill having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby 9  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 declared passed. House Bill 2555, Mr. Moffitt. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

Clerk Rossi: "House Bill 2555, a Bill for an Act to create the Auctioneer Licensing Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Twenty five fifty five is just a Vehicle Bill. We introduced it. The auctioneers of Illinois would like to increase their professional stature and require of themselves some training and licensure. They were just doing it on their own initiative. The realtors had some concerns and the realtors in the renewal of their licensure, had put auctioneers in it. The realtors agreed to take auctioneers out. The auctioneers agreed to hold off on their Bill but would like to keep this Bill as a live Bill. It would only be used to license auctioneers. The realtors and the Auctioneers Association will continue to negotiate over the summer. It's possible in the fall that they might be... have an agreement. If they did, it would be used for that purpose at that time. But at the moment, it's a Shell Bill, only used if there's an agreement."

"The Gentleman moves for the passage of the Bill. The Chair recognizes Mr. Hartke."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand in support of the move. We're trying to negotiate this and keep this Bill alive. We'd like to see it go over to the Senate and I would ask for support for this measure."

"Mr. Bost."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, also, rise in support of this Bill. This is a Bill we've been working on together since last year. We're happy to move it on over with nothing in 10  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 it. There won't be any hog legislation or anything like that in it, it'll just strictly be a Shell Bill in dealing with this Auctioneers Licensing Act."

Speaker Madigan: "There being no further discussion, Mr. Moffitt,moves for the passage of the Bill. Those in favor signify by voting 'aye'; those opposed by voting 'no'. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? There are two people not... one person. The Clerk shall take the record. On this question, there are 100 people voting 'aye', 16 voting 'no'. This Bill having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. House Bill 2167. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 2167, a Bill for Act in relation to community service. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Mr. Burke."

"Thank you, Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 2167, as amended, begins to approach the inviolate relationship and trusted confidence between a parent and child, currently not guaranteed in our state statutes. Across this country, each state is granted immunity and protection from being forced to testify against their spouse to husbands and wives, commonly termed spousal exemption. This Bill asks that we in this Legislature, consider the bond between parents and children to be equally sacred. There are other relationships that enjoy this privilege. Many of you here are quite familiar with the attorney client privilege. There exists in law, the untouchable secrecy of the confessional and the privileged communication between a doctor and patient. In some cases even the media has attempted to claim this exemption. Are these relationships any more important than 11  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 that of a parent to child? And what might the affect be if these secret entitled communications were corrupted and society would lose confidence in the confidentially of communication with these parties? I submit to this Body, that certain relationships must remain sacred, incorruptible, inviolate and secure. Yes, in recent days our nation has observed a mother/child relationship being interfered with by a grand jury proceeding. I question how any person observing the media attention being given this unfortunate situation, could not help imagining themselves in the same circumstance. Could any of you, as parents, conceive being called to testify about conversations with your child or being expected to reveal confidential communications between yourself and your child whatever age they may be? Children in this society have more than enough challenges to confront, without questioning their parents loyalty and the confidentiality of what they choose to discuss with their parents. This legislation only amends Civil Code and does not tamper with the Criminal Code. It says, that the relationship between parents and their children is equally important in law as that of lawyer/client, doctor/patient, and confessor/priest. I ask you what greater obligation does one have in this life than to protect, defend, and provide for their child?. Without the provisions that this legislation seeks, I would submit that we dissolve all other exemptions currently granted in state law. The measure presented in this Bill is not an attempt to excuse, defend, or satisfy any interest but to simply affirm the unique and immeasurable bond between a child and its parents. It says to parents and children across Illinois that faith and confidence cherished in good families is encouraged and supported by this gGovernment. 12  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 I'd be happy to answer any questions."

"The Chair recognizes Mr. Cross. Mr. Granberg in the Chair."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will. Proceed."

"Representative, is this the Bill we talked about in committee that is supposed to address the Monica Lewinsky problem?"

"In my remarks, I did make reference to a matter that has been given national attention of late and yes, I suppose you could put that name to it, but I could also say it's the Tom Cross Bill if you were found in the same circumstance."

"I have not spent any time with Monica Lewinsky. I don't know that girl. And I certainly... never mind. I'm not going to touch it. Representative, I know what you're trying to do with this, at least I think I do, and I... and I... we talked about this a great deal in committee. Amendment #1 became the Bill, is that correct?"

"Yes."

"I know, among other things, that DCFS is opposed to this Amendment. Have you done anything to correct their opposition?" Burke: 'Yes, I, in fact, have prepared an Amendment that would attend to the DCFS concerns and I would expect that that will go with the Bill if we are successful to the Senate and I'm going to insist that that Amendment be added and that would again guarantee that any DCF concerns would be addressed, and I agree with you, Representative, it is a very important concern and it is not my intention to interfere with any DCFS matter."

"In addition to DCFS's concerns, which I think are very 13  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 legitimate, some of the things we talked about in committee that would present a problem would be in the area, for instance, of divorce cases that your language says, 'Neither a parent nor a child may be compelled to disclose, in any court or to any administrative body, any statement made to the parent or the child by the other, nor be compelled to divulge any information which has been obtained from the other'. How on earth can you have a custody battle, or a custody discussion, or a custody, unfortunately most of them are fights, if you can't allow parents or children to testify in court or to a judge? And that's one of the real problems with this Bill."

"That's one of the Amendments that I would insist that would be placed at the Senate level."

"Representative, I guess with all due respect, why haven't we seen... why haven't we seen that Amendment prior to today?"

"It's not on this House Bill. As I said to you, it's going to be recommended that the Amendment be added to the Senate version."

"I mean... the form this Bill's in right now is very... I mean there's some real glaring problems, not only in the area of the child custody issue but in the area of a probate dispute for instance. Probate, that's where we have a fight about a will, Mr. Speaker, you know. Will contest. Once again, oftentimes in a will contest parents, siblings or the surviving parent are going to be asked to testify about the intentions of perhaps the deceased, whatever the case may be, and we're prohibiting them from testifying under this Bill. And I don't know how we're going... how you intend to correct that."

"As the Bill cites, Representative, the matters that we 14  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 are referring to are confidential, or a oral and written communications."

"I think we all know where you want to go with this, and I totally agree with you, and I said that. I think the scenario that we're familiar with in the national media, is outrageous. I don't agree with what's going on, but I think it's real difficult to get where we want to go and I don't know that we can get there, and I'm concerned about sending a Bill over to the Senate that is in the kind of shape this one is."

"Well, I know of nothing that some out of this place, since I've been here, that's absolutely perfect. And certainly you understand the intention of this legislation, and I think it begins to address that very important relationship between parents and their children and that of the confidentiality of that relationship. Again, I ask you, can you possibly see yourself in that same circumstance that the case that you just cited has put that mother in? This is what we're beginning to address. And if this Bill doesn't go, I know of no Senate Bill that has been forwarded this far. This is beginning the discussion and I would hope again that some of those matters that you have cited would be corrected and attended to at the Senate level. And I certainly understand that this Legislature would not promote something that would interfere with DCF matters and in respect that would be detrimental to the benefit of a child."

"Well, I don't know if this Bill will pass out. I know in its present form it's... while it's admirable where you're wanting to go with it it's severely flawed and I know there's some other people that have questions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker." 15  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

Speaker Granberg: "Anything further? The Lady from Cook, Representative Schakowsky."

"Thank you. Mr. Speaker, as a parent, I rise in strong support of this legislation. Especially parents who have gone through adolescence with their kids where they make... we make a particular effort to tell our kids that they need to come with us with everything, with the most sensitive things, with things that they fear are... are wrong or troubling that we're there for them and we're going to be a safe haven for them, someplace that they can come without risk to tell us about the most troubling of things in their lives. How would it be if suddenly that relationship became one, where if you tell your mom or your dad something that if there actually is... I mean let's talk... let's say that there may be some problem with... with substance abuse where you want to provide help to your kid and then suddenly that could become grist for testimony in a trial? You want to be able to create for your child a safe place. That is not to say you don't want to be responsible, you don't want to help them do the right thing, you want to set right what has gone wrong, but it means that our children need at least one safe haven to come to so that we can guide them to be really good and productive citizens. I think this is so critical. I think this is at least as critical as the protections offered spouses against testifying against one another. And I can't imagine that there is anymore relationship that ought to be more protected and more sacred than the parent/child relationship. So I strongly support this and would urge all of you, especially those who understand how important it is to be confidants of our children, and I believe that's not... if that's not most of us then certainly you 16  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 understand as having observed that relationship that this deserves a strong 'aye' vote."

Speaker Granberg: "The Gentleman from Logan, Representative Turner." Turner, J.: "The Sponsor yield?"

"Proceed, Sir." Turner, J.: "Representative, I think we went over this in committee. You had indicated at that time that your idea originated from the Monica Lewinsky Case but I believe we had pointed out that that was and is a criminal investigation and your Bill has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal law, is that not correct?"

"That is correct." Turner, J.: "So I ask you, how does this Bill address that particular situation since that is a completely different area than what you're talking about in this particular measure?"

"Well, as you notice this Bill is titled House Bill 2167, it doesn't say anything about Monica Lewinsky on this board. And certainly it is not a matter that was probably the most fortunate title for me to refer to her... the most fortunate situation for me to refer to. I did that because of the national attention that that matter had been given, and yes indeed, the name has been prominent and indeed it does bring our attention to that grand jury proceeding that so many of us in the general public have not been presented with before. So, indeed it was not the most fortunate situation to compare this matter to, but certainly I think that the relationship between a parent and child and the confidentality of communications between those parties is crucial in our society. It must be maintained and I think it must be held inviolate from any interference by a grand 17  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 jury or any government." Turner, J.: "Well, thank you, but the point is that even if this measure had been the law in the jurisdiction where the Monica Lewinsky event was taking place, that is the compelling testimony, it would not have prohibited the prosecutor from calling the mother of Monica Lewinsky, that is true is it not?"

"Yeah, more than likely because, as we know, the matter began as a civil investigation and ended up being criminal at the ultimate." Turner, J.: "Why is the Illinois State Bar Association opposed to this measure?"

"They are supportive of this." Turner, J.: "The Illinois State Bar Association supports this?"

"Yes, Sir. They filed a statement in committee, if you remember, and they are in full support of this measure." Turner, J.: "Well, that's interesting. I think you've already acknowledged that the Bill is defective and needs to be changed. You've done that haven't you?"

"I said it does require some change, I didn't say it was defective and it's my intention to send over the Amendment that we have prepared here that I didn't have time to get on the Bill, to the Senate. I don't know what Sponsor is going to pick it up but I can assure you that it wouldn't go any further without attending to some of the DCFS concerns, and that is probably something that is minor, in with relation to how it defects the Bill, but certainly important in the sense that we would not do anything that would detrimentally affect DCFS concerns." Turner, J.: "Do you intend this Bill to affect all civil cases? Tom Cross touched upon this, for example, will it affect probate cases?" 18  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Yes." Turner, J.: "Custody cases, neglect cases, abuse cases?"

"No." Turner, J.: "No?"

"No." Turner, J.: "Where's the limiting language?"

"That's in the Amendment that I'm going to insist that the Senate consider." Turner, J.: "Now wait a minute, I thought we didn't adopt an Amendment. Representative, are you saying it's in the Amendment that we have not adopted? Representative, were you working on that question or..."

"Give me just a moment." Turner, J.: "Okay, thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Johnson. Mr. Turner, did you conclude?" Turner, J.: "No, Mr. Speaker, I had asked a question and I was waiting for a response. Thank you."

"That's fine, thank you."

"Amendment #1 was, neither a parent nor a child may be compelled to disclose in any court, or to any administrative body, any statement made to the parent or the child by the other nor be compelled to divulge any information, which has been obtained from the other, except as to such matters in which either has acted as agent for the other." Turner, J.: "Is that the Amendment that we've adopted?"

"Yes." Turner, J.: "And the Illinois State Bar Association supports this Bill with that Amendment?"

"Yes." Turner, J.: "Because our analysis does not indicate that, so 19  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 evidently that is incorrect. I notice that the Bill speaks to the parent and child. Now, are we talking about minor children or could this be a 50 year old and a 30 year old? Is there is any confining language with regard to that?"

"No. It was intended to be general, that any age would be included." Turner, J.: "Does this look... work like a privilege between two spouses? Is that what you're intending to do with this?"

"Yes, it is. It would be the spouse exemption and that of doctor/patient or attorney/client. That is the goal." Turner, J.: "Does parent include stepparent? Stepchildren, are they included in this Bill?"

"If they have legal position. If they are the guardian of the child." Turner, J.: "Can one party be com... can one party voluntarily testify in a proceeding if they wish to do so?"

"Yes, they could." Turner, J.: "And again this has nothing to do with the age of the child?"

"Has nothing to do with the age of the child?" Turner, J.: "You know the former Representative... Representative who spoke just a few moments ago gave you an example where, I don't believe she was questioning you, but was talking about, if there were substance abuse. Now, don't you think in a civil case that it may be important for the court to know if there was substance abuse by the parent?"

"Representative, what the legislation addresses is the subject of oral and written confidential communications. I suppose you could extend that to what the circumstance you just described, but I don't believe that... that certainly is not our intention." Turner, J.: "Well, it wasn't my example. It was an example from 20  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 a colleague on that side of the aisle and it was cited to suggest why we should vote for the Bill. May I suggest to you that's why we shouldn't vote for it. There are certain times where an individual may not want to come into court, may be reluctant to do so, but may have information that is absolutely critical for the protection of small children, and your Bill would prohibit that."

"You're talking about a criminal matter there, Representative. If you're talking about drug abuse that's criminal. This..." Turner, J.: "No, I was talking..."

"This is an Amendment to the Civil Code." Turner, J.: "It could be but it could also be civil, could have to do with visitation, could have to do with custody, could have to do with abuse."

"We're talking about that." Turner, J.: "Can't you see the danger of this Bill?"

"It does have some flaws, there's no doubt." Turner, J.: "This Bill is terribly far reaching. It needs an Amendment. It needs changed in the Senate, you've already acknowledged that. What makes you think the Senate will change it?"

"What was your question?" Turner, J.: "What makes you think the Senate is going to correct this?" Burke: 'Well, I'm going to send it over with the language that we have prepared as an Amendment. As I said, I don't know who the Sponsor may be at this time, if there will be a Sponsor, but language that has been recommended by DCFS is going to be attended to." Turner, J.: "Well, in the interest of time, I'm sure there are going to be some other questions for it. Just to address 21  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 the Members of the General Assembly, very quickly here. No doubt that the Representative is intending to do good with this piece of legislation. I for one, as an attorney haven't got the slightest idea how the Illinois State Bar Association could be supporting this particular language. It is very dangerous. It's dangerous for civil cases, in probate. It's dangerous for cases in abuse, in custody, in visitation. It's dangerous in that it will affect and could affect negatively small children. It should not be passed. It needs to be corrected. Everyone should be voting 'no' in spite of the fact it's a good idea by the Representative. Thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Johnson." Johnson, Tom: "Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Proceed." Johnson, Tom: "Representative, I just need a couple of points of clarification. I thought that when you brought this before committee, you had agreed that you were not going to move this Bill without it being properly amended. And that's how it got out of the committee to begin with, as I recall. That was your representation in committee was it not?"

"Yes. Not that I would not move the Bill, I told you and I told the members of the committee that I would be in discussions with the Department of DCFS." Johnson, Tom: "Well, it's my understanding that we asked you directly..."

"They have been very, very slow in coming forward with recommendations in this regard." Johnson, Tom: "Pardon."

"The Department of DCFS has been very slow in coming forward with their recommendations." 22  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Johnson, Tom: "Well, I understand that, but you're talking about major fundamental change to existing law and I have appreciated your... your candor and so on and how you've approached these issues before, Representative, and you know, when we're going to talk about major fundamental changes to law, such as this, and then you bring it before a committee where, in fact, we ought to be discussing it and getting the testimony and so on, and then you represent to the committee that you're not going to move it until we have a chance to look at that Amendment and here we are on the floor today because somebody is slow we're going to expedite a major change without any... any hearings, any witnesses, any input, any discussion, and I think it's been pointed out that there has been a lot of flaws in this piece of legislation..."

"If you remember, Representative, in the committee the Department of DCFS did not file a witness statement in objection to this Bill. Originally and as it is still the case, this Bill amends Civil Code not Criminal Code." Johnson, Tom: "I understand that."

"Their concerns surround the subject of criminal investigations and certainly we're talking about child abuse and all the other matters that DCFS would consider, custody and the like. And they did not... there is the representative from DCFS." Johnson, Tom: "I understand that, Representative, and you know I don't find that to be compelling because obviously people are not going to file witness slips when you tell the committee that the Bill is flawed and yes you will be amending it. Now, nobody is going to file a witness slip and talk to a Bill that is really not the Bill. This is fundamental change. Now the other thing, to the Bill." 23  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Proceed." Johnson, Tom: "This is very, very fundamental change to law as we know it. It is, in fact, inspired by the Monica Lewinsky debacle in Washington. It was brought in hastily. It was written hastily. The Sponsor acknowledges that this thing has major flaws. It's brought in the last day of committee where the committee is dealing with 46 different Bills inside of three hours. And then a Representative comes in with this type of major change says that, 'No I won't move it without coming back with the proper Amendments so that we could really look at it.' And here we are up today on the floor because it sounds good because of Monica Lewinsky and it's necessary. There is nothing in this Bill. If we want to look at the Monica Lewinsky thing I would suggest that one of the flaws in here is that it doesn't even deal with minor children. It says, 'Any child'. It means that hay I can have a 60 year old child. I could be a 70 year old man and my child and I could concoct some sort of a scheme and defraud or anything else that we're not even going to be able to subpoena my 60 year old son to come in and testify against my scheme. Now, that's how flawed this is. Monica Lewinsky, as I understand it, was an adult. Her mother is an adult. Are we going to protect the communications between adult children, as well, so that we can set up conspiracies between adult children and parents and not even be able to go after that? That's just an example of how flawed this Bill is. I would urge this Body to either vote 'present' on this, or vote 'no' so that we can get back to this and study it as it should be studied. I agree that maybe we ought to be looking and revisiting this whole area but we should not be doing it with such post haste at the end of a Session, when we're moving 46 24  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Bills out of a committee, when we're told we're going to get an Amendment and we don't have an Amendment, and now we're going to send it to the Senate and hopefully the Senate will do its thing like we expect them to do with most of our Bills and that is, don't pass them. Thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Biggins."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield? Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Yeah."

"Representative, would you... would you clear up the Amendment status please? Is there an Amendment on this Bill or not?"

"There was an Amendment adopted in the committee."

"And would you consider another Amendment if I were to draft one? I think we can avoid the need for the main part of this Bill if we just address the real issue."

"I would inquire of the Chair if there would be that opportunity at this time. Inquiry of the Chair."

"State your inquiry."

"Is there opportunity to amend this Bill further?"

Speaker Granberg: "Mr. Burke, you would have to file the Amendment. That Amendment would have to go through the Rules Committee. If it's a substantive change, it would be recommended to go back to the committee for a substantive hearing. If it was recommended: 'do adopt', it would have to come back to the Floor. That Amendment would have to be adopted and then the Bill would have to be called on Third."

"Will there be further committee?"

"This is the last day. I'm not..." 25  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"I understand that."

"Well, thank you for inquiring Representative."

"If you... Representative, if you agree, I suppose we could do it in relatively short time. If you don't ask for notes as, you know, has been the routine around here."

"I was going to suggest that we require, put an Amendment in that requires the President of the United States when he seduces 20 year old interns on his staff..."

"So yours is..."

"...to obviate the need..."

"...a facetious Amendment Rep..."

"...to obviate the need for..."

"A facetious Amendment. I thought your inquiry was serious."

"We don't need to have a mother testify against her daughter if the President of the United States will tell what he did to the daughter in the first place. We don't need the whole Bill."

"I was responding to a serious inquiry, Representative. Not a facetious one."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Mulligan."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill."

"Proceed."

"It's my understanding that the Department of DCFS is against this Bill. I can certainly understand it if you read what Amendment 1 says. It would certainly put a chilling affect on any child abuse cases, and I personally think that if this is important enough to do, it's important enough to do right. We have never been at a loss for finding a Bill to amend after it comes over from the Senate or some other way of getting a issue that is of paramount importance to be passed in the General Assembly 26  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 to be put on a Bill. To send this Bill out with my 'aye' vote on it would mean that I put a stamp on this kind of a chilling affect on legislation that would allow child abuse cases to be prosecuted, different things to happen in court, in all kinds of different cases as many of the lawyers on this House Floor have testified. I see no problem voting 'present' or 'no' on this Bill, and holding it up. I'm sure the Sponsor, although it may be well intended, can certainly find another way to do this. Many times we send Bills out of committee with a promise that they won't be changed or moved until, you know, on the House Floor and we continue to do it, and I don't think that's right. Law firms and many people spend a lot of money interpreting the laws that we make here because they're so imperfect and we have not done our job, and I don't think this is a good Bill to put our name on particularly when it will greatly impact child abuse cases."

"Thank you. The Lady from Cook, Representative Davis." Davis, M.: "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this legislation. Being the mother of one grown adult daughter and there are many conversations that I had with that assistant principal that I would not want to share with her employer, my employer, her husband or her children. That is my child, that is my baby. There is no bond, there is no bond, there is no human bond closer than one of mother and child, and even in my opinion the law... the law cannot interfere with that God given bond. It takes an awful, awful, awful lot of intimidation from any group who would attempt to make conversations between a mother and daughter, privy, privy to court cases. Surely if the case 27  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 can stand up to muster there must be other testimony, or other witnesses, or other evidence that can lead to what a prosecutor may be seeking. May I conclude my remarks, Mr. Speaker, by saying I am so proud of my President, Mr. Bill Clinton, and I am so thankful that a judge has seen through the folly, through the folly of a person demented, demented and obviously attempting to get next month's rent out of somebody's pocket. I am certainly sure that any father or mother who sits in this room today, who has had a close relationship with his/her offspring would feel that any court could bring some division between the two of you. As you sit and talk on late evenings over a cup of tea or if you're on the telephone over a cup of coffee, are you to worry that some day this conversation with your loved one to whom you gave birth, to whom you nurtured, that there are some court that can come between the two of you? Not in the United States of America. Not according to the Constitution that I believe in and I believe nothing can change that. Mr. Representative Burke, I support your Bill. Thank you."

"Thank you. The Gentleman from DuPage, Mr. Roskam."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Proceed, Sir."

"Representative Burke, whose privilege is this to assert? In other words, let's take a civil custody case where there's a potentially abusive father, it's not in the criminal context but it would be in the civil context. I would say there is a 12 year old daughter, something like that, is it her privilege to assert or is it the father's privilege to assert? In other words, can the father say, 'I will not allow my daughter's testimony to come 28  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 forward?'"

"No, it would be reciprocal Representative. Both parent and child would have the opportunity to claim this exemption, just as a spouse would be able to claim that exemption."

"So, in that circumstance, the father would be able to say in that civil setting, through his attorney, we are going to bar this child from offering testimony as it relates to conversations or abusive conduct and so forth?"

"No, it's a privilege, Representative. It's something that they could claim, it's not something that's insisted upon. We're saying that they cannot be compelled. It doesn't say that they cannot voluntarily testify."

"I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. Could you just say that again?"

"I'm saying that the legislation says that they may not be compelled, which is forced, but they could voluntarily testify if it was their desire. Neither party, parent or child."

"So, but that really doesn't get to the question of whose privilege it is from a legal point of view to assert."

"Whoever would claim it. Whoever would be concerned that that was privileged communication."

"Pardon me."

"Whether it be the child who has confided in its parent, something that they have done or their experience or some relationship that they were involved with, if they had decided that was confidential and it was exclusive to the parent, the information being revealed to exclusive notice of the parent, then that child could claim the privilege."

"Well, can the parent claim the privilege?"

"Did you have another question, Representative? I beg 29  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 your pardon."

"Yes, Sir, I'm sorry. My question was, can the parent claim the privilege?"

"Yes."

"Can the father claim the privilege?"

"Yes. It would be both parent/child."

"Doesn't that seem problematic though, I mean if the..."

"If the parents testimony is being sought."

"So, what you're saying is that under no circumstance could a father say that my daughter will be prohibited from testifying?"

"No."

"If she chooses to assert the privilege?"

"Absolutely not."

"I mean if she chooses to assert the testimony?"

"If the child chooses to testify they may do so. This legislation says that an individual whether it be parent or child cannot be compelled, forced, to testify. It is their privilege to testify."

"Okay. Here's my question. Let's say you've got a young child, you have a single father raising a young child, there are custody questions that come up, it's not in the civil context, it's in the criminal context, and there are ambiguities in terms of who has the legal authority over the child. Can't you see a scenario that's very dangerous where a child should be in a situation where their testimony is sought but the very person against whom that testimony is sought has the control over the child and can assert the privilege to insulate themselves against a tremendous problem. That's an inherent conflict isn't it?"

"I don't see that conflict, Representative. If the child is enjoying the privilege of being able to testify, there 30  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 is nothing in this legislation that would compel the child to not testify. If the situation that you are citing would occur, that is probably surrounding the subject of abuse."

"Well, I mean..."

"Where if that parent had such control over the child and certainly if the matter being investigated was neglect or child abuse, the parent would probably attempt to preclude the child from testifying against that... against himself."

"But your legislation doesn't provide any safeguards for that scenario. And the scenario that I painted earlier, and I'm sure that there are others, in civil settings where there is physical abuse questions that are revelent to the issue at hand in the civil setting that under your House Bill 2167, that child and the very necessary testimony that we need to elicit from that child would be chilled. Would be put in a situation where the child is almost in a conflict. Thanks for answering my questions. To the Bill. Ladies and Gentlemen, and I rise in strong opposition to House Bill 2167. This is a cataclysmic change in our Code of Civil Procedure. It is with all due respect to a well intentioned Sponsor, I don't think that it's been well thought out in terms of the ramifications from a long-term point of view. I know that we all have the temptation to be headline driven and, you know, I don't want Monica Lewinsky and her foibles to be driving fundamental change in the law. This is not... this is not tinkering with the edges of the Code of Civil Procedure, this is going right at the heart of the Code of Civil Procedure, and years, and years, and years of well thought out jurors prudence. Now, maybe there do need to be changes but I think that we can save those changes for another day. And I would ask, Mr. Speaker, if this does get the requisite number of votes I 31  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 would request a verification. And I urge my colleagues to vote 'no'. Thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "A verification has been requested and acknowledged. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Burke to close. Representative Burke. Representative Burke. Representative Burke, you've been recognized to close on the Bill."

"Thank you, Speaker. Certainly the very serious concerns that have been cited by those inquiring, are that they are serious concerns. And as I said to the committee when the Bill was first introduced, that it was not my intention to interfere with DCFS, that's why we limited the Bill to Civil Procedure, and did not begin to tamper with Criminal Code. I know if the Bill were to go further, if it were going to arrive at the Senate, the DCFS concerns would be addressed. I, in fact, would take this Bill out of the record and add that Amendment if I believed that opposition would not file every note available to them to file to slow the process down, and I then be precluded from having a vote taken on this matter. This, I think, begins to direct its immediate attention to this government's public policy. Are we not going to consider the very important relationship between a parent and child to be equally sacred to that of spousal relationships to that of doctor/patient, to that of lawyer/client? There are those parties that currently enjoy that privilege in this government, in this law. There are three other states that have already afforded this privilege to their citizens. I am asking that Illinois, not because of some national debacle that has been going on in our sight for the last several months, I'm asking our government to acknowledge the sacred confidential relationship between a parent and 32  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 his or her child. Whether they be a minor or an adult, it makes no difference. There is no consideration given to spousal exemption with respect to the age of those characters. I'm asking that we acknowledge the sacred relationship between parents and children and say that confidentiality be maintained in that relationship equally to that of doctor/patient, lawyer/client, priest/confessor or husband/wife. It's very clear. There needs more work on the Bill, no doubt, but I'm saying, we have the opportunity to say yes, I will not divulge information my child has provided me, nor will the child divulge on the parent if they are compelled to do so in court. It gives them a privilege, it's not a guarantee, there's nothing being forced here and I would ask for the Body's favorable consideration."

Speaker Granberg: "The Gentleman moves for the passage of House Bill 2167. On that question, all in favor shall vote 'aye'; all opposed shall vote 'nay'. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. The Gentleman... Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, there are 59 voting 'aye', 49 voting 'no', 6 voting 'present'. The Gentleman requests Postponed Consideration. Thank you. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Kubik. Representative Kubik, do you wish to have your Bill called, Sir? Mr. Clerk..."

"Twenty-eight twenty-one."

"House Bill 2821."

Clerk Rossi: "House Bill 2821, a Bill for an Act amending the Environmental Protection Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the 33  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 House. House Bill 2821 is the product of six months of consensus building among local government and counties from throughout the state, as well as the solid waste industry. As a result, 2821 has received a broad base of support from counties and organizations in the solid waste industry. In its very basic form, 2821 insures that every county in the state will receive funds each year based on a per capita distribution to help them implement state mandated solid waste education recycling and waste reduction program. For the first time in 10 years this Bill addresses the unfunded mandate that has been imposed on over 60 counties to implement solid waste program in accordance with the Solid Waste Planning and Recycling Act. This Bill will also help fund 17 rural programs that have never received money from DCCA's programs at anytime since these programs began over a decade ago. Twenty-eight twenty-one, will lower the current maximum rate of $1.27 for the local tipping fee surcharge, by 32 cents to the pre-1992 level of 95 cents per ton. It would create a 26 cent per ton local waste reduction and recycling fee that would be collected by the State EPA on all refuge landfills in the state. This Bill really creates a fair and equitable funding source for all counties, while protecting and preserving the financial interest of those counties and municipalities that are now receiving local tipping...the local tipping fee surcharge. This is accomplished by a hold-harmless provision in the Bill, funded by grants, provided by DCCA's Solid Waste Fund. Let me remind you, that 10 years ago this legislature mandated the counties be responsible for developing and implementing solid waste recycling programs. We also mandated that each county be responsible for achieving a 25% recycling rate. The tipping fees surcharge 34  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 the state collects, was intended in part to help counties fulfil these mandates. This Bill creates a fair and equitable formula which will insure long-term... the long-term success of local government recycling initiative. Passage of this Bill will finally allow all counties to fulfill the recycling mission as mandated by the State of Illinois 10 years ago. I'd be happy to respond to questions and would appreciate your support of House Bill 2821."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you. The Gentleman moves for the passage of the Bill. On that question, is there any discussion? The Gentleman from St. Clair, Representative Holbrook."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Fellow Members of the Legislature, what we're doing here is reducing our local tipping fees, the tipping fees that your counties use to monitor your landfills, and in my case in the metro-east we use them for enforcement officers to check the trucks to keep the litter off the roads. It helps fund our health departments. What we're doing is reducing what they're going to get locally and then telling them that they're going to go to the state and request through DCCA to be reimbursed for the money they've lost when we've reduced these fees. DCCA testified in committee that they oppose this Bill. They also testified that those funds for this had been dwindling and that right now, this year, we may have the money but there is no guarantee in the future that they will have that money. We have some real concerns here in our area, in the metro-east. We've sited the new landfills. We've taken the hits from our local residents who didn't want it near them and we're handling our trash. What this Bill does is take away part of our funding for 35  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 controlling those landfills and tells us at the end of the year to go to the state, apply for some funds that may or may not be there, and that's just not our county's opinion on this. When our metro counties met last week this was a major issue and they voted unanimously to oppose this Bill. To not endorse it. I would urge everyone in here that if you have a landfill in your community that you may not be reimbursed, they may lose money down the road on this issue. You know, no one likes a landfill, we wish we could recycle 99%. We all support that theory of recycling. This Bill does not achieve that. What this Bill does is take away some of your local funding and send your counties back to the state asking for money that we have taken away from them, and in most cases, and in my area in the metro-east, this is money that we use to monitor and control these landfills to try to prevent the misuse as we had earlier from the huge hauling companies in St. Louis hauling across out-of-state trash over to us. I would urge a 'no' vote on this. I know there's negotiations going on, let's get a better Bill. Let's get one that guarantees the money, or better yet, let's say that the areas that the landfills are full and they need this recycling money let them go to the state and apply. Don't take money away from our local landfills and tell us to go to the state and ask for the money back that we already have. I urge a 'no' vote."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Hassert."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will. Proceed, Sir."

"Jack, is the metro counties still opposing this?"

"Representative Hassert, I believe they are. I am not... 36  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 They have not contacted me personally but as I understand it, they are still in opposition."

"Just to the Bill, here's my concern. If you're in a county that basically owns and operates, or has landfills, this Bill is basically a take away from the counties that have the landfills, who have sited the landfills and are going to spread the wealth throughout the whole state. My main concern is the counties that have put up with the importation of garbage and other areas are going to be deprived from their tipping fees which basically run, monitor and run their solid waste programs. That's my major concern with this Bill, is that it sounds good under pretences that we're going to help for recycling throughout the state, but the inherited problem with this Bill is that it's going to take away from the counties who have sited landfills, who are responsible for disposing of our waste, it's going to reduce their cost of operating their solid waste programs. And unfortunately, with all due respect to the Sponsor, I'm going to have to vote 'no' on this and I encourage people to vote 'no' on this who are recipients of waste within their counties or within their regions. Thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you, Mr. Hassert. The Gentleman from Kankakee, Representative Novak."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates he will. Proceed."

"Representative Kubik, when we considered this Bill in the Environment Committee and I know there are a lot of questions raised, I know a lot of work has went into this process, and many of us voted to get the Bill out of committee to continue the process. Did you, after the Bill was approved in committee, were there any meetings convened 37  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 to talk about further modifications to the Bill or trying to answer some of these questions that were raised in committee?"

"Representative, the proponents of this Bill, as I understand it, have been meeting with those who oppose it and trying to ameliorate some of their concerns. I have to tell you, I recognize that a lot of those concerns have not been taken care of. We realize we're up against the deadline, and what I would say to you is that I realize there will be opposition to this Bill. It would be my intention that this process continue and we continue to work on some of the problems or the preceived problems in this legislation. Now, part of the problem I would point out, I think that's there's a huge amount of misinformation being spread about this Bill. For example, I... I have received communications from DCCA, and frankly I'm not sure that I'm prepared to believe that DCCA has given us the right type of information. I think that information has been somewhat manipulated. However, I know some people are concerned about losing money, the ultimate aim here is to try to create a situation where we will create a hold-harmless, for those communities. I know of those areas. I know they're concerned about that. We're trying to work to try to address some of those concerns about the hold-harmless, but the key thing is here that in this legislation what we do now, we... in may ways take away the grant process. The arbitrary grant process and we provide that the dollars go back to counties throughout the state so that they can utilize this money for recycling programs. So, you know, I understand why DCCA is opposed to it because, you know, they're the one giving out the grants. So, certainly, they don't want to be not in that position 38  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 anymore, but let me say, I think the main concern that people have is whether or not they will be made whole and we're working very hard to create a situation where they will be remain... will be made whole."

"Okay. So what you're saying is, the agency unalterably opposed at this present time?"

"Yes. DCCA, yes."

"But they're willing to sit down and listen and discuss?"

"My understanding is that from the proponents, that they are going to sit down with DCCA during the Easter break and see if we can't..."

"Okay." Kubik...and work out some situation."

"Okay. So I know I realize we have..."

"That might help this legislation."

"I have questions personally, you know, and I understand the northern suburbs, I understand the western suburbs. I understand there's a lot of counties in this state that do not have landfills and do not benefit by these recycling grants because of the absence of local tipping fees. But, is there a Senate Bill coming over from the House that's worded the exact same way? Do you have two Bills simultaneously working through the chambers? Can you answer that?"

"Representative, I'm not aware of that if that's the case. I don't think so, but I'm not aware of whether there is or not."

"So to your knowledge, you're the only Sponsor of this Bill? There is no Bill like this in the Senate?"

"I believe so. I think there may be some Bills that deal with the same subject but not in this fashion."

"Right. Do you know who the Senate Sponsor of this Bill 39  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 is going to be? Have you selected a Senate Sponsor to this Bill?"

"I would expect that Senator Walsh would pick up the Bill."

"Tom? Tom?"

"Yes, Tom Walsh. Yeah, I had forgot there are two Walshs now."

"Can we, for those of us, and still, one of my counties is adamantly in favor of this Bill and the other one has some questions, but for those of us that have a lot of questions about this Bill, could you give us a commitment now that to work these questions out, to work these concerns out that we would put this in a Conference Committee Report since there's only one Bill so to keep this process going?"

"Yeah. Yes, I would give you that commitment."

"Or, I mean if it gets to the point where it can't be amended in the Senate, put it in the Conference Committee Report, so we can at least work on this all the way throughout the end of the Session."

"All right. And Representative I certainly would, if you believe that there is somebody in the Senate who ought to be involved in this process in terms of sponsorship or what not, you know, I certainly will work with the proponents to make sure that individual is a part of that process so that we can... you know, and I understand there's going to be some differences here. I recognize that. But what we're trying to do is create a equitable of a system as possible and that's the goal."

"Okay. Well..."

"And I give you my commitment that..."

"I appreciate that Jack, and Tom Walsh is a fine Senator because he was a Representative before that. So I'm sure 40  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 he'll do an excellent job."

"That's as good of a... you know that's what makes a great Senator."

"I just think we need to work more on these, with these concerns from other Legislators in other parts of the state. Okay. Thank you."

"The Gentleman from Vermilion, Representative Black. Mr. Black, was Mr. Kasper causing you some difficulty earlier?"

"Yes, but we've managed to work that out."

"Okay, very good."

"In a very agreeable manner."

"Well that's the way you do..."

"I told him he was right and he was happy. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"He indicates he will. Proceed, Sir."

"Thank you. Representative, you've done a lot of work on this and obviously as it's been said already, the Department of Commerce and Community Affairs has some major problems with this Bill. Can you address the concerns that some counties have that the hold-harmless provision simply is not sufficient to guarantee, if there ever is a guarantee in government, that in the out years, three, four, five years, they in fact, will be held harmless?"

"Representative, it is my intention and the intention to the proponents to... for these counties, as you point out, to be held harmless. Now, I think when you phrased your question, you said a guarantee, as good as a guarantee in government can be given and I think that unfortunately the case. So certainly we want to hold these counties harmless. And if there's something that we can do legislatively or language-wise that would be a much 41  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 stronger approach than we currently have, I think we're willing to sit down and work on that. As I stated to Representative Novak, the proponents wish to... are going to sit down with DCCA over the Easter break and see if there are some things that we can do to solve some of the issues that are still raised in this Bill. It, it... and you know Representative, this is a tough, tough issue, and it's not an easy issue to resolve. There's some regional differences there are some, you know, we're taking an agency who gives grants and we're saying, well we're going to hold everybody harmless and we're taking away some of their ability to give grants, and I can certainly appreciate why they're not happy about this, but what I think what we're trying to do is to address a mandate that was put on the counties by this Legislature 10 years ago, an unfunded mandate I might point out. So those are the goals and I know that you're really concerned about this issue and I know that there is some differences of opinion in your own area. As I stated to Representative Novak, I want to try to solve as many of these problems as possible but, I don't think we can do it unless we... we continue the process given what the deadlines are."

"Well thank you very much, Representative. I appreciate the work that you've done on this Bill and you're absolutely right, there is a difference of opinion within my own county, and I'm going to break with my home county on this issue. And Mr. Speaker, if I might speak to the Bill."

"Proceed, Mr. Black."

"...and will try to cast some light on why I will break with my own home county. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I would urge you to look very carefully at this 42  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Bill. My home county is the repository of garbage from many counties around the State of Illinois who for one reason or another have closed their landfill or chose not to site a landfill in any way, shape, or form. So my home county is the repository of garbage and that tipping fee has enabled my home county to put together a very good, in fact, I would say almost a model solid waste reduction plan. The Department of Commerce and Community Affairs has put out a list that says, 'If this Bill in its current form becomes law that some counties will have an estimated loss of income under the Bill'. Let me just share with you just a few of the counties that will have a net loss. They estimate that Adams and Pike will have a net loss of $21,000. Boone and Winnebago a net loss of a $138,000. Brown County, a net loss of $248,000. Bureau County, a net loss of $191,000. I could go on. Jackson County, a loss of a $124,000. The county of Kane, $348,000. The county of Kankakee, the home of my good friend and colleague, Representative Novak, $650,000 loss. Macon and Piatt, $208,000 loss. Sangamon County, $167,000 loss. My home county of Vermilion, a $22,000 loss. Now, someone's figures are either accurate and on target or someone's figures are either inaccurate and not on target. My fear with this Bill is that you're changing the rules of the game. Those of us who are the repositories of your garbage have the tipping fee and we have managed to use those fees in Solid Waste Reduction Programs. Now, all of a sudden we're going to change and I don't know what the future holds. This is not a perfect Bill, there's never been one introduced in this chamber. But I really am worried about the out years, not next year, of those counties who choose not to have a landfill, suddenly can you create a transfer 43  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 station..."

"Mr. Black, your oratory has once again carried the day. We're not going to adjourn, but we're going to take the Bill out of the record."

"Oh, well thank you very much."

"Just for you."

"Thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "The Lady from Cook, Representative Lou Jones, on House Bill 3575. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 3575, the Bill has been read a second time, previously. No Committee Amendments. Floor Amendment #1, offered by Representative Lou Jones, has been approved for consideration."

"Representative Jones, on Floor Amendment #1." Jones, L.: "Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. Amendment #1 just basically guts the Bill and it's a Shell Bill. And upon agreement with the Department of Revenue, Chicago Housing Authority and the City of Chicago, I asking that this here Bill be moved out like it is and the agreed language will be put on in the Senate."

Speaker Granberg: "The Lady moves for the adoption of the Amendment. All in favor say 'aye'; all opposed say 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it, the Amendment is adopted. Representative Jones, on House Bill 3575. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill. Any further Amendments, Mr. Clerk?"

"No further Amendment."

"Third Reading. Read the Bill."

Clerk Bolin: "House Bill 3575, a Bill for an Act to amend the Property Tax Code. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Jones." Jones, L.: "Again, this Bill will be moved out... I want it moved out to the Senate and the agreed language will be put on 44  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 because of the time restraints and we are at deadline today. The agreed language will be put on in the Senate."

"The Lady moves for the passage of the Bill. On that question, is there any discussion? No one seeking recognition, all in favor shall vote 'aye'; all opposed shall vote 'nay'. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, 61 voting 'yes', 54 voting 'no', 0 voting 'present'. House Bill 3575, having received the Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. The Gentleman from Adams, Representative Tenhouse."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Republicans are requesting a immediate conference in Room 118."

"Speaker Madigan. House Bill 3399. Mr. Clerk. Representative Jones. You might want to hear... Mr. Churchill. Anything further, Mr. Tenhouse? Representative Jones, the Lady from Cook. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 3399, a Bill for an Act to amend the Excellence in Academic Medicine Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

"Representative Jones." Jones, L.: "Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Members of the House. House Bill 3399, there should be...there should be an Amendment. Excuse me, is Amendment #4 on this Bill? It is?"

"Mr. Clerk, Amendment #4."

"Amendment #4 has been adopted." Jones, L.: "What. Oh."

"Floor Amendment #4, has been adopted to the Bill." Jones, L.: "Amendment #4 becomes the Bill. A few days ago we had this discussion and some of the opposition was that that 45  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 was the specialty of psychiatry would only be done in Chicago. Well, the Director of Public Health gave us another Amendment that says, 'That a person whose medical specialty has been changed to psychiatry, is able to serve that specialty in any place in the State of Illinois upon the discretion of the or the director'. And this sunsets in two 2000."

Speaker Granberg: "Have you finished, Representative Jones? The Lady moves for the passage of the Bill. On that question, the Gentleman from Vermilion, Representative Black."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. To the Bill."

"Proceed, Sir."

"The Sponsor has worked diligently to get this Bill in the form that it's in with Amendment #4. I reluctantly rise in opposition of the Bill. Let me tell you why. Certainly nothing against the Sponsor. Nothing against what she's trying to do, but for those who live in medically underserved areas as I do, what this Bill does, is to say that if you go to medical school and you get a scholarship from the Department of Public Health and you're going to come back to a medically served... a medically underserved area as a primary care physician, then you don't have to pay the scholarship back. Well, evidently what's happened is, that somebody decided after medical school that rather than be a general practitioner and treat fellows like people like me, they would get a residency and become a psychiatrist, and so we're going to waive a scholarship for a psychiatrist. Well, I don't care where the psychiatrist lives, I think he or she is going to practice in Chicago, and as the Sponsor has pointed out to me, there are areas in Chicago that are medically underserved. But to have a 46  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 rural area waive a scholarship so that a psychiatrist can set up practice, and I realize that are people that think I could benefit from that, but be that as it may, this sets a precedent that I'm not sure that I want to support. I will always support primary care physicians coming back to medically underserved areas and being the old family doctor, the gatekeeper, the general practitioner that we all grew up with and that we need desperately in underserved areas. I just can't in good conscience say that a psychiatrist should have that scholarship waived. We didn't start this program to create medical specialities, we started it to get general practitioners to come back to rural Illinois and medically underserved areas in Chicago to practice medicine. So, I don't have any quarrel with the Sponsor, I just don't think this is really a very good idea, and so reluctantly, because I have the utmost regard for the Sponsor and she's tried so hard to get this Bill in the current form. I must stand in opposition to the Bill, and Mr. Speaker, I would assume that everybody's on the Floor, but if not, vote your own switch because we will seek a verification."

"Thank you, Mr. Black. A verification has been requested and acknowledged. The Lady from Cook, Representative Erwin."

"Thank you, Speaker. I stand in very strong support of House Bill of 3399. Representative Black, I happen to think this is a wonderful precedent to have the State of Illinois stand before. The truth of the matter is we know a lot more today about biologically based disorders, biologically based mental health disorders, than we did when we first acted, when we first enacted this law. And I would think that rural communities would be... would want 47  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 to encourage psychiatrist to come and serve in their community. I would think that, as a matter of fact, that if you had more qualified psychiatrists in underserved areas, particularly in rural areas of this state, than, in fact, many people who turn to drug abuse, alcoholism and have other serious medical problems would have their underlying mental illness correctly diagnosed. I think this is a terrific idea. I think, in fact, that while we all appreciate the importance of primary health care practitioners, be they advance practice nurses or physicians there is a need for mental health professionals in underserved areas. Serious depression, schizophrenia, leads to many other biologically based problems and other dependency problems. I think this is a really good Bill and if you live in a rural part of the state I think that this is very much to your advantage. So I would strongly urge an 'aye' vote."

"Representative Mulligan, the Lady from Cook."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates she will, proceed."

"Representative, would your Bill allow people who have already contracted under this type of scholarship to now be waived, not future applicants but ones that currently have contracted?" Jones, L.: "I really couldn't hear you, Representative."

"I'm sorry, you didn't hear?" Jones, L.: "No."

"Would your Bill allow scholarships that have already been let and been used, to be waived under this Bill, or is it just future scholarships?" Jones, L.: "Both."

"So, is that fair to have..." 48  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Jones, L.: "It's upon the discretion of the Director of Public Health."

"In committee we've heard testimony that there isn't enough money currently for these scholarships. You know, I agree with both of the former speakers. I certainly agree with Representative Erwin that there is need for psychiatry but then we should establish scholarships particularly in that area. I don't think that we should allow someone who has already contracted under the premise that they're going to serve as a primary care physician in an area of need to be waived out. To me that's changing in midstream with what we've asked people to contract for and what this scholarship fund was established for." Jones, L.: "Well, like Representative Erwin said, because of the drugs and the alcohol in some of these areas, that is one of the reasons why the director has agreed upon his discretion to add psychiatry, because psychiatrists go through the same medical education that the general practitioner does. It just adds psychiatry...does psychiatry also. Again,this Bill came out of committee with no opposition and because it said Chicago, and one of the previous speakers was one of the main people that was questioning Chicago only, the director changed and changed the Amendment so it would be anywhere in the United... I mean in Illinois at his discretion. I think, I think psychiatry is a major specialty in a lot of medically deprived areas."

"To the Bill, Mr. Speaker."

"Proceed, Ma'am."

"In two different committees that I sit on we've had testimony about how there is not enough money for these scholarships. In the most cases, people that except the 49  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 scholarship do not default. The reason it's three times the amount of the scholarship is so that they will think carefully before they make this commitment. I think that's very important. There is also nothing that says if you don't serve the amount of time that you've agreed to serve that you can't go back and take another specialty in psychiatry if you want to. Not only that, a specialty in psychiatry is a very high paid doctor when they get out. They can afford to pay back this scholarship. Or if we want to do that, the General Assembly should establish scholarships in that specific area. That was not the intent of the scholarship. There currently is not enough money to even fulfill the scholarships for medically underserved areas in this state. I happen to be fortunate enough to live in a area that is highly served but I was more than happy to support scholarships to encourage doctors to go to areas where we don't have them and I think to change this in midstream and make it retroactive for people who have already signed contracts is not right."

"The Lady from Cook, Representative Jones to close." Jones, L.: "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I would add that the Department of Public Health supports the Amendment, in fact, it's their Amendment and I ask for an 'aye' vote."

Speaker Granberg: "The Lady movers for the passage of House Bill 3399. On that question, all in favor shall vote 'aye'; all opposed shall vote 'nay'. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, 62 voting 'aye', 52 voting 'nay', 0 voting 'present', and the Gentleman from Vermilion, Representative Black, has requested a verification. Mr. Black, do you... 50  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Mr. Clerk, proceed."

Clerk Rossi: "Poll of those voting in the affirmative. Representatives: Acevedo. Beaubien. Boland. Bradley. Brosnahan. Brunsvold. Bugielski. Burke. Capparelli. Crotty. Barbara Currie. Julie Curry. Dart. Davis, Monique. Davis, Steve. Erwin. Fantin. Feigenholtz. Jones, Lou. Kenner. Kosel. Lang. Lopez. Lyons, Joseph. Mautino. McCarthy. McGuire. McKeon. Moore, Eugene. Morrow. Harold Murphy. Novak. O'Brien. Phelps. Pugh. Reitz. Rodriguez. Ronen. Schakowsky. Schoenberg. Scott. Scully. Silva. Slone. Smith. Stroger. Turner, Arthur. Woolard. Younge. Zickus, and Mr. Speaker."

"Mr. Black."

"Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Representative Reitz? Or is it Reitz?"

Speaker Granberg: "Representative Reitz is in the rear of the chamber, Sir."

"Oh. All right. Representative O'Brien. Mary Kay O'Brien."

Speaker Granberg: "Representative O'Brien is in the rear of the chamber, as well."

"Could you have them get in their chairs? It would make it so much easier. Representative Bradford? Is Representative Bradford in the chamber?"

"His look alike Representative Hoffman, is in the rear of the chamber. No it..."

"Oh. Oh, we thought perhaps he was down doing some work today. All right. Is Representative Flowers in the chamber?"

"Representative Flowers, is in the main aisle."

"I'm sorry. Is... yes I see him, never in his seat I might add. Is Representative Woolard in the chamber?" 51  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

Speaker Granberg: "Representative Woolard is down with Congressman Glenn Poshard."

"I can't tell them apart. Good Lord they look like twins."

Speaker Granberg: "Representative Silva, requests leave for verification."

"Yes. Yes, of course."

Speaker Granberg: "Acknowledged. Thank you, Mr. Black. Mr. Turner, same leave, Mr. Black. Representative Turner."

"John Turner?"

"John as well, John and Art."

"Oh. Okay, fine on your side of the aisle. All right."

"Thank you."

"Is Representative McCarthy in the chamber?"

"Representative McCarthy is in the front of the chamber. Representative Howard. Representative Howard, for what purpose... Did you seek leave, to be verified? For what reason do you rise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Had I been in the room at the time I would of voted 'yes' on this legislation."

"Thank you, Representative. Mr. Black."

"Is Representative Hoffman in the chamber?"

Speaker Granberg: "Representative Hoffman. Representative Jay Hoffman, is the Gentleman in the chamber? Is the Gentleman in the chamber? Mr. Black, he's entering the chamber from the rear."

"I see him, okay, fine."

"Thank you."

"Is Representative Kenner?"

"I'm sorry."

"Kenner. Representative Kenner in the chamber?"

Speaker Granberg: "Representative Kenner? He's in his chair, 52  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Sir."

"That's what threw me he was in his chair. Representative Brunsvold."

"Representative Brunsvold. Representative Joel Brunsvold. Is the Gentleman in the chamber? Representative Brunsvold, is coming out of the mens room Mr. Black, you might want to meet him."

"Make sure he washes hands, will you? I have nothing further, Mr. Speaker."

"Thank you, Mr. Black. On this question, House Bill 3399 having received 62 'yes' votes, 52 'no' votes. Having received a Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. I believe the Republicans have requested a immediate caucus. Representative Tenhouse. And the Democrats will caucus immediately. Allowing Perfunctory time for the Clerk, the House now stands in recess."

"Attention Members the Democrats will caucus in Room 114, immediately. The Republicans will caucus immediately, in Room 118. House Perfunctory Session will come to order. Second Reading of House Joint Resolution Constitutional Amendment #2." HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT RESOLVED, BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE NINETIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, THE SENATE CONCURRING HEREIN, that there shall be submitted to the electors of the State for adoption or rejection at the general election next occurring at least 6 months after the adoption of this resolution a proposition to amend Article V of the Illinois Constitution by changing Sections 1, 3, 7, and 18, and by repealing Section 17 as 53  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 follows: (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 1) SECTION 1. OFFICERS The Executive Branch shall include a Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, Secretary of State, and Treasurer elected by the electors of the State. They shall keep the public records and maintain a residence at the seat of government during their terms of office. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 3) SECTION 3. ELIGIBILITY To be eligible to hold the office of Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, Secretary of State, or Treasurer, a person must be a United States citizen, at least 25 years old, and a resident of this State for the three years preceding his or _______ her election. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 7) SECTION 7. VACANCIES IN OTHER ELECTIVE OFFICES If the Attorney General, Secretary of State, or Treasurer, fails to qualify or if the office becomes vacant, the Governor shall fill the office by appointment. The appointee shall hold office until the elected officer qualifies or until a successor is elected and qualified as may be provided by law and shall not be subject to removal by the Governor. If the Lieutenant Governor fails to qualify or if the ___ his --- office becomes vacant, it shall remain vacant until the end of the term. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) 54  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 17) SECTION 17. COMPTROLLER - DUTIES (REPEALED) __________ -------------------------------------------------------------- The Comptroller, in accordance with law, shall maintain the State's central fiscal accounts, ------------------------------------------------------------------ and order payments into and out ----------------------------------- of the funds held by the Treasurer. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 18) SECTION 18. TREASURER - DUTIES The Treasurer, in accordance with law, shall maintain the State's central fiscal accounts and order payments into and out of accounts. Be responsible for the safekeeping and investment of monies and securities deposited with him or her and for their disbursement. And have the duties and powers that may be discribed by law. Scheduled, this Constitutional Amendment takes effect upon the conclusion of the term of the Comptroller elected in 1998. (Source: Illinois Constitution.)

"This Constitutional Amendment has been read in full a second time as amended by Committee Amendment #1."

"Senate Joint Resolution Constitutional Amendment #15 as amended." SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT RESOLVED, BY THE SENATE OF THE NINETIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES CONCURRING HEREIN, that there shall be submitted to the electors of the State for adoption or rejection at the general election next occurring at least 6 months after the adoption of this resolution a proposition to amend Article V of the Illinois Constitution by 55  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 changing Sections 1, 3 and 7, by adding Section 16.5 and by repealing Section 17 and 18 as follows: (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 1) SECTION 1. OFFICERS The Executive Branch shall include a Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, Secretary of State, Comptroller ----------- and State Financial Officer elected by the electors of the State. They shall keep the public records and maintain a residence at the seat of government during their terms of office. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 3) SECTION 3. ELIGIBILITY To be eligible to hold the office of Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, Secretary of State, ----------- Comptroller or State Financial Officer, a person must be a United States citizen, at least 25 years old, and a resident of this State for the three years preceding his or ______ her election. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 7) SECTION 7. VACANCIES IN OTHER ELECTIVE OFFICES If the Attorney General, Secretary of State, ----------- Comptroller or State Financial Officer fails to qualify or if the ___ his --- office becomes vacant, the Governor shall fill the office by appointment. The appointee shall hold office until the elected officer qualifies or until a successor is elected and qualified as may be provided by law and shall not be subject to removal by the Governor. If the Lieutenant Governor fails to qualify or if the ___ --- office becomes vacant, it shall remain vacant until the end of his the term. 56  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 (Source: Illinois Constitution.) _______________________________________________ SECTION 16.5. STATE FINANCIAL OFFICER - DUTIES ______________________________________________________________ The state financial officer, in accordance with law, shall (i) __________________________________________________________________ maintain the State's central fiscal accounts, and order playments __________________________________________________________________ into and outof the accounts and (ii) shall be responsible for the __________________________________________________________________ safekeeping and investment of monies and securities deposited with _______________________________________ him or her, and for their disbursement. (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 17) SECTION 17. COMPTROLLER - DUTIES (REPEALED) __________ -------------------------------------------------------------- The Comptroller, in accordance with law, shall maintain the ------------------------------------------------------------------ State's central fiscal accounts, and order payments into and out ----------------------------------- of the funds held by the Treasurer. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) (ILCON Art. V, Sec. 18) SECTION 18. TREASURER - DUTIES (REPEALED) __________ The Treasurer, in accordance with law, shall (i) maintain _________________ the __________________________________________________________________ State's central fiscal accounts, and order payments into and out _____________________ of the accounts, (ii) be responsible for the safekeeping and investment of monies and securities deposited with him or ______ her, and for their disbursement, and (iii) have the ___________________________________________ duties and powers that ________________________ may be prescribed by law upon order of ----------------------------- the Comptroller. (Source: Illinois Constitution.) SCHEDULE This Constitutional Amendment takes effect as follows: (1) Those portions creating the office of State Financial Officer take effect upon approval. This Constitutional Amendment by the electors of this state. (2) Those portions provided for the election of the State Financial Officer take effect beginning with 57  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 the election in 2002. (3) Those portions eliminating the offices of the Treasurer and the Comptroller take effect upon the conclusion of the terms of the Treasurer and Comptroller elected in 1998.

"Introduction and First Reading of Senate Bills. Senate Bill 1380, offered by Representative Parke, a Bill for an Act to amend the Interest Act. Attention Members, the House will convene in five minutes. The House will convene in five minutes."

Speaker Granberg: "Attention Ladies and Gentlemen, will the unauthorized people leave the Floor. Anyone not authorized to the Floor of the House, please leave the chamber. House Bill 3778. Mr. Clerk, read the Bill."

"House Bill 3778, a Bill for an Act to amend the Adoption Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

Speaker Granberg: "The Lady from Cook, Representative Feigenholtz."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. House Bill 3778 is an expansion of the Confidential Intermediary Program, which is currently implemented by the Department of Children and Family Services, since 1990. This piece of legislation is the result of over a year's worth of work with adoptive parents groups, birth parents, adult adopted persons, DCFS, social service agencies, confidential intermediaries, and is an agreed Bill with the Chicago Bar Association and the Adoption Law Committee. And I would entertain any questions. Thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "The Lady moves for the passage of the Bill. On that question, the Gentleman from Vermilion, Representative Black."

"Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?" 58  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"She indicates she will. Please proceed."

"Representative you've done a great deal of work on this Bill and I do commend you for that. I'd like to ask you a few questions. As an adoptive parent, in provisions that relate to confidential intermediaries, there is a reference to a list of said confidential intermediaries maintained by DCFS. Does this list currently exist or does it reference a new duty to create a list?"

"Mr. Black, looking through the statute there's... in the already existing statute, there is a Section called eligibility, which describes what a confidential intermediary is. Could you hold on one second, and I'll show you?"

"Sure. Okay."

"Mr. Black."

"Yes, Sir."

Speaker Granberg: "Did you have time for lunch? We want to make sure you're taken care of today."

"Well, it's sitting here in its little environmentally incorrect bag, yes."

"Okay. I'm back. It's on page 16, line 24, subsection (b). It reads, 'Eligibility of intermediary. The court may appoint as confidential intermediary either an employee of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services designated by the department to serve as such. Any other person certified by the department as qualified to serve as a confidential intermediary or any employee of a licensed child welfare agency certified by the agency is qualified to serve as a confidential intermediary'. So, this is already in statute, Representative Black. The definition of what a CI is."

"All right. The point of the question is, while it 59  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 appears to be in statute, does the agency already have such a list, or will they be required to create a list?"

"I believe that the Department of Children and Family Services has a list. What we want them to do is provide a more comprehensive list to the Judiciary."

"Okay. Now, that was my next question. Would those people on the list or before they could be included on said list, would they have to be selected by a court of law?"

"They would have to go through the confidential intermediary certification process before they could be a confidential intermediary, after which, they would be both on a list at DCFS, as well as in the courts."

"All right. The people that are selected and on the list, are those the only people that we can utilize to access the medical information, or could someone within that family petition to be added to the list and act as the intermediary?"

"No. The only way a person becomes a CI is by going through the DCFS Certification Program. It is not the intent of the Bill to make a family member a confidential intermediary."

"Okay. Is the process by which one becomes a confidential intermediary, is that already expressly outlined as to what you have to do and the process to become? Would... would either of the parties in an adoption, have any veto authority? You know, say the birth mother would say, 'I don't want to deal with that person. I don't care for that person. I won't work with that person.' Then what happens?"

"Are you talking about the birth parent doesn't want to deal with this confidential... particular confidential..." 60  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Right. Right. The confidential intermediary that makes a contact to perhaps try to get some medical information as you and I discussed yesterday. If the birth parent says, 'I won't work with that person. I absolutely will not discuss this information. I don't trust that person.'"

"That's a very good question. Much of what the confidential intermediary system does is promulgate much of this by rule. If you could imagine, Representative Black, this is a very, very sensitive and delicate type of appointment, and most of the people who do this work are triad members. They're either adoptive parents, adoptees, or birth parents, who understand the delicate nuances of the program. I cannot answer, nor have I ever heard of a situation where a confidential intermediary has been told what you have just described, however, I would imagine that the best possible remedy to that would be to go back to the court and ask for another appointed confidential intermediary."

"Okay. And that simply leads to the last question that I have. If upon attempting to make contact with the sought after birth relative, the confidential intermediary discovers or is told by either the birth parent or a member of the birth parent's family, we do not wish to be contacted, we signed away those rights, we refuse to be contacted we... leave us alone. Then... then what happens to the confidential intermediary in that particular situation?"

"The records are impounded in the file. The confidential intermediary than tells the petitioner or the person searching, that the other party that they are searching does not want or desire contact. And the confidential intermediary will attempt to get the most 61  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 recent updated medical information for the persons being sought after, because many times people are searching because they need medical information from their families of origin."

"But your Bill would not then give extraordinary rights to the confidential intermediary to violate the right of privacy of the birth family, would it?"

"Absolutely not."

"Okay."

"There is no... there is no identifying information exchanged or released in this Bill."

"Okay. Now, I just want to reverse the Bill for a minute, just turn the Bill around, and let's say that I am the birth parent and after 18 or 19 years, I want to find out how my child is doing, where the child lives, how's the child doing, what's the child's life like. Can I access a confidential intermediary, as the birth parent who put the child up for adoption? All of a sudden 18 years later I decide I'd really like to find out where the child is, and how the child is doing. Can I contact an confidential intermediary to find that information?"

"You may not contact a confidential intermediary. You need to petition the court to get an appointment to a confidential intermediary."

"Okay. All right. So, there is still due process. The most chilling affect, as an adoptive parent, on the process, is the lingering fear that somebody knocks on your door at 6 p.m. one night after 15 years, 18 years, whatever it may be and says, 'You know, I'm here... I'm here to claim the rights to my child.' This doesn't..."

"No, actually, Representative, I'm glad you brought that up. Part of what the problem has been since we have 62  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 sealed records in the State of Illinois, is that it has driven a black market. People have been very frustrated with the system as it is, and what they end up doing is hiring private investigators and going through the Internet. What we're trying to do through this legislation, is bring them back into the fold and have them do their searches in a responsible way."

"Do you think the enactment of your Bill might give us some tools to go after those who use the Internet, who hire private detectives, who violate every precept of due process and become obsessed with finding the birth child? I don't know that it will absolutely stop it, but I just wonder if on down the road it might give tools to say, 'Hey, that's an abject invasion of privacy.'"

"I'm not sure what you're asking me. Do I think, do I think that..."

"Well, in the passage of this Bill with a procedure in place I know it won't stop those on the Internet who are always seeking and searching, and some people hire some private detectives, some of whom do very ethical work and some of whom are not that ethical, quite frankly, and I know I've talked to many adoptive parents who feel somewhat harassed by people who may not even be the actual birth parents, asking questions, showing up at the school, knocking on their door, thinking that your adoptive child is their birth child and so forth and so on. I would hope that the direction that we're heading is the way you're heading, a reasonable process where everyone's rights are protected."

"Absolutely. You should know, Representative Black, that much of what is in this Bill is already in practice. The Department of Children and Family Services provides 63  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 this service for free for both birth parents and adoptees, 18 years or over, at no cost. However, in infant private adoptions in the State of Illinois, in Cook County, for me to get my original birth certificate or to get an appointment of a CI, it costs me $220 to petition the court and we can, on our little banter yesterday, on that Clerk of the Court Bill, what we're attempting is to bring the cost down because it... If it's a private adoption, you have to petition the court and the appointment of the confidential intermediary is $425. So, what we're trying to do is create a level playing field for all members of the triad who have both been privately adopted, as well as through agencies and the Department of Children and Family Services."

"Yeah, I don't want to revisit that fee language, it overloaded my circuits. But it appears to me that your Bill gives a legal avenue, as staff pointed out, for those who wish to follow the law, a reasonable process to do so, and then hopefully, it would cut down the number of people who, on occasion, try to circumvent the law and create some real problems when they do that. So, I think you've worked out a very reasonable Bill, Representative. I congratulate you on that and I stand in support of your Bill."

"Thank you very much."

Speaker Granberg: "Anything further? The Gentleman from Effingham, Representative Hartke."

"Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. This is a very personal Bill to me. I may have some difficulty here on this piece of legislation. Sara and I have talked. She's done a wonderful job. I don't want to stop her Bill and there are three parts to adoption; the child, the adoptive parents, and the birth mother. What she's trying to do is 64  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 very good. And we have talked about this Bill. I don't want to stop it, but I don't think there's enough protection in it for the adoptive parents, because I am one. Sara, I'm going to vote for your Bill. We need to do something. I can't go further, thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you, Mr. Hartke. The Lady from Kane, Representative Lindner."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Indicates she will. Proceed ma'am."

"Yes. Representative, on page 14, of the Bill you say, that the court without holding a hearing may rule on the petition for appointment of confidential intermediary. That is a change. Is a hearing held now?"

"Representative Lindner, that was amended. You must be looking at the initial Bill. In Amendment #3, I believe we changed that. It was pointed out to me by the Chicago Bar Association, even though it was in their original language when they helped me draft this, that it says, 'Without a hearing'. I am aware that you cannot tell a judge whether he can or can't sit on a bench and so we deleted that language and we put in a provision.. We deleted that language so a hearing can be held if the judge chooses to do so."

"So, if somebody did contest the appointment of a confidential intermediary, there would be a hearing?"

"We also entered a statement after we withdrew those three words that said, 'No show of cause needs to be...' could you hold on and I'll pull the Amendment out? On page 2, line 1 of Amendment #3, 'No show of cause shall be required by the petitioner for the appointment of a confidential intermediary'."

"Okay. Thank you. On my analysis, I thought it said 65  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 that Amendment #1 was the Bill so that's what I was reading."

"I'm sorry. Yeah, we did amend it. If you'd like to see it, I have an extra copy for you, but we did delete 'without a hearing' so that's... we've eliminated that."

"And then there were also a number of duties that were crossed out. Have you changed the duties of the confidential intermediary?"

"I can't hear you."

"There were also a number of duties. Now, this was on page 18, of Amendment #1, so, I don't know if it's the same in Amendment #3, duties of the confidential intermediary that were lined out."

"I can sit here and read this, Representative, but what I think this is is that it..."

"No, I guess are there any significant changes in the duties of the confidential intermediary in your Bill?"

"I think when you.... much of what was in here becomes moot when you eliminate the need to show cause."

"Okay. Thank you. I don't have anymore questions."

"Anything further? The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Lang."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this Bill, mostly to commend the Sponsor. The Sponsor's been working on this Bill for well over a year. She could have passed a more... a Bill that did much more to the law a year ago when it was a topic many were not even paying attention to, but she chose to deal with all comers on the issues, people who were opposed to her point of view, people who agreed with her, and she spent a long time doing what she felt was the right thing, and I want to commend the Sponsor and I ask for your 'aye' votes." 66  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Nothing further? The Gentleman from Dekalb, Representative Wirsing."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand in full support of House Bill 3778. And I, too, want to laud the efforts of the Representative and her work and difficult at sometimes and I know frustrating at sometimes to bring us to a final vote here today in the House. I don't have personal experience but because of Sara I had the opportunity to meet some people, even got acquainted with some people in my district, who had... were involved in a situation this Bill deals with and recognize the extreme importance of it and very proud to have my name up there as a hyphenated Sponsor. Thanks for your work."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you, Mr. Wirsing. The Lady from Cook, Representative Feigenholtz to close."

"Thank you all very much for your patience on this Bill. And I would appreciate an 'aye' vote. It will change and improve the quality of life of adult adopted people in the State of Illinois."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you. The Lady from Cook moves for the passage of House Bill 3778. All in favor shall vote 'aye'; all opposed shall vote 'nay'. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have all voted who wish? Mr. Clerk, take the record. On this question, 114 voting 'yes', 0 voting 'no', 0 voting 'present'. House Bill 3778, having received the Constitutional Majority, is hereby declared passed. House Bill 3797. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

Clerk Rossi: "House Bill 3797, the Bill has been read a second time, previously. No Committee Amendments. Floor Amendment #1, offered by Speaker Madigan, has been approved for consideration."

"Speaker Madigan." 67  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Could the Clerk read the Amendment?"

"Floor Amendment #1, offered by Speaker Madigan, has been approved for consideration."

Speaker Granberg: "Out of the record. Mr. Black, you had your light on, Sir."

"Are we on the Amendment?"

"That's right, we took the Bill out of the record for a moment."

"All right. Mr. Speaker, I have an inquiry of the Chair."

"State your inquiry."

"Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would also rise to a point of personal privilege. We've spent the last two days in this chamber talking about ethics, talking about financial reform, campaign reform, and I would assume that in the very near future we are going to be talking about a major Bill affecting the agriculture industry of the State of Illinois and the odors that emanate from large industrial hog operations. But, you know, Mr. Speaker, in all due respect to you, we don't live in a vacuum down here. I spend 12 to 14 hours a day on this floor, but I'm still able to get newspapers and hear a few radio reports in this state, and since we've been on ethics and your gubernatorial candidate was on the floor a few minutes ago and has made ethics and finance reform one of the linchpins of his career in Congress, I'm in amazement that from what I read in the various newspapers about a former colleague of ours, who resigned from this chamber on October 10, 1997, and a subsequent contract that was issued to him that nobody now takes responsibility for and that, in fact, yesterday was rescinded. Now, I think it's time to discuss that. That is an ethical issue. That is a campaign finance issue. That's real. That's not something on paper. I, for 68  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 one, as a Member of this Body, would like to know what has happened. When Mr. Bradford resigned, why did he resign? Why did he get a sudden contract with the state's attorney? Why did he get a contract with the House Democrat Organization? Was there something that we don't know about? Now, I know what you're going to say, Mr. Speaker. You're going to throw something back into my face that happened when we were in charge three years ago. Let me make one point clear, Mr. Speaker. We took responsibility for that. We came out and explained it. The Gentleman involved resigned, and a clear explanation was given. We have received no explanation. I think we deserve an explanation that has been well documented in the press of this state. I'd like to know what has transpired with former Representative Bradford. You owe it to this chamber to discuss it. Discuss it openly. Let's do it right now."

"Mr. Black, thank you for the comments. House Bill 3797, Speaker Madigan."

"Huh, no explanation. You can shut me up, but you can't shut the facts up."

"Thank you, Mr. Black."

"You might as well face it now. It isn't going to go away."

"Thank you."

"You can shut us up, but you can't shut the facts of the matter up."

"Thank you, Mr. Black. The Gentleman from DuPage, Mr. Biggins, for what reason do you rise?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Following up on my colleague's request, certainly the timing of events in this trading of House seats occurring in our state, leaves one to, I think, cry out for an answer. A full explanation necessary to be 69  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 given to all the people in the State of Illinois because this affects the entire state budget and the timing of events between a resignation... first an election, a hiring in the state's attorney's office, a swearing in, a resignation, another hiring in state's attorney same... state's attorney's office. Does the Chair have any knowledge of any investigation being done by the Sangamon County State's Attorney on this matter?"

"Thank you, Mr. Biggins."

"Could you answer my question, please? Does the Chair have knowledge of anything going on with the Sangamon County? Is the Sangamon County State's Attorney investigating this situation?"

"Mr. Biggins, I have no knowledge of any impropriety. The Gentleman from Kendall, Mr. Cross."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, same point of order and point of privilege. All we're trying to do is get some questions answered. I think the facts are pretty clear from what we've read and heard throughout the paper... seen in the paper this week. Last Sunday, a spokesman for the House Democrats said he didn't know what kind of work Mr. Bradford was doing or had done, if any. On Monday, Mr. Bradford said he was earning his pay as a part-time researcher of legislative proposals, providing written reports, illegal opinions and memorandums. Then on Tuesday, Mr. Bradford said he thought he was on legal retainer, meaning if he was called on, he would do the work. Then yesterday, we we're told that he was never given any work and now they want their money back. These questions, these facts, beg some answers of the questions, Mr. Speaker, and we'd like to know why this contract was awarded. We'd like to know if it was in response to Mr. 70  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Bradford's resignation. We've got a contractual service voucher here that was signed, it looks like by Mr. Mapes, as agency head that certifies that written reports were to be conducted, memoranda was supposed to be done, legal opinions and other materials at such times and under such circumstances as determined by the legal council to the Speaker of the House were to be performed. We don't know what was performed. We've yet to heard... to be told if anything was performed. When can we expect some answers, Mr. Speaker?"

"Thank you for your comments, Mr. Cross."

"Well, I'd like to know, when can we expect some answers?"

"Mr. Cross, I have no knowledge of those matters, but thank you."

"Well, Mr. Speaker, you acknowledge that Mr. Mapes signed a contractual service voucher? Will you acknowledge that this is a contractual service voucher?"

"Mr. Cross, I have no knowledge of that. Mr..."

"Are just going to just not answer our questions?"

Speaker Granberg: "Mr. Logan... Mr. Turner, Gentleman from Logan." Turner, J.: "Mr. Speaker..."

"Proceed." Turner, J.: "...rise on a point. Thank you. Representative Cross has raised some interesting questions and I think Members on this side of the aisle do have the right to have a response to those questions. He's posed and let me pose them again. We want to know, was there a contract? We want to know if there was a contract, who signed the contract? We want to know, were there vouchers signed? If vouchers were signed, who signed those vouchers? We want to know if work was performed. We know that there has been a denial 71  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 that any work was done. We want to know if payments were made. If payments were made, why were payments made if no work was performed? Now, these questions are very legitimate. I would ask that the Speaker answer these questions. It's proper for him to do so, if not, I suppose the press corps which at this time is probably on to this, can try to do their own investigation or perhaps if we can't get questions from... questions answered from the Speaker, we need to get an independent investigation going by the Attorney General or the state's attorney or the federal investigators. But the questions are legitimate. The questions should be answered in order for us to contend to you... to conduct the business of the people of the State of Illinois. We have a right on this side of the aisle and on that side of the aisle to have answers to these legitimate questions. Will you try to answer them, Sir?"

"Thank you, Mr. Turner, I appreciate your comments. The Gentleman from Adams, Representative Tenhouse."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Same questions. I rise on point of personal privilege."

"State your point."

"We start talking about the... I guess as we look at this the Edwardsville _________________________ Intelligence have put it pretty well, I think, when they said somewhere along the line this whole set of coincidences, conveniences, and circumstances begin to take on an odor. An odor that blows all over the entire party and the entire process. I think that's an odor worse than any hog farm. I wish, as we get ready to debate the hog farm issue, we're talking about the impact that it can have on rural areas. This has an impact all over the 72  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 state. I have real concern, all of us have concerns. We just want some answers, Mr. Speaker."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you, Mr. Tenhouse. The Gentleman from Will, Mr. Meyer. Representative Meyer."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. I represent an area that is on the boarders of Chicago. It's a suburban area, it's one of the collar county areas, and certainly, in that area of the state, we have for a number of years now, been subjected to periodic disclosures that there are those in government that do not conduct themselves properly and within the law, a ghost payroll. They do no work for receiving pay and it's a blight on all of us. And now if one reads the newspapers from another part of the state we find out that that is not permeated to those areas, too. And I think it is an incumbent upon all of us that we stand up and ask a unified body for an investigation as to why this has occurred, if it has occurred, and then we determine whether a law has been broken or not, but we do want a full investigation. It is against all of us when these types of accusations come to the forefront. That is one of the reasons I believe why people throughout this state and throughout this country do not trust us as people that work in the policitcal arena. We're responsible for passing laws, but anything that taints that is... detracts from are ability to represent those that elect us to be here and I would just ask that the Speaker institute an investigation, fully disclose what has gone on, so that the rest of us can go about our business."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you for your comments, Mr. Meyer. The Gentleman from Macon, Senator Noland. Senator Noland."

"Speaker inquiry of the Chair, please." 73  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"State your inquiry."

"What was the percent turnout in the most recent general primary election?"

Speaker Granberg: "Mr. Noland, I do not know, because I think we're trying to deal with matters before the House currently on legislation."

"What was the recent turnout in Fayette County in a primary election? In your home county?"

"Mr. Noland please confine your remarks... What is your... are you,... rise on a point of personal privilege or..."

"Mr. Speaker, you know my point. My point is, people aren't voting 27%, 25%, 32%. Why? It's because of stuff like this, ghost gate. I mean, most people...most people in my area and in your area, and I know where you live, believe in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. A former colleague didn't work and got paid handsomely, and that's nonsense. It's bologna. Now, a little bit ago, I sat here a few years ago and listened to you and your colleagues harangueg us, day in and day out over some Fiscal Note thing. We accepted our error. We apologized for it. Lee Daniels went up to the Chair and he admitted an error. A poor staff person lost his job. His reputation was tarnished, but yet, you make no explanation. You give us no, no analogy of what happened. It's ghost gate. Now, face up to it, Speaker, let us know what's going on. You talked for weeks about the Fiscal thing, yet, you won't say squat about, other than I have no knowledge. You do to have knowledge, and we want to know what it is. So, come clean, Speaker. Tell us what's going on."

"Are you finished?" 74  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Please tell us what's going on. What are you doing about the situation?"

"Thank you, Thank you for your comments, Mr. Noland. The Gentleman from Winnebago, Representative Winters."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Many of us in this chamber are not full-time Legislators, we have other jobs, and I wanted to describe a little bit of what I do when I go home to my district. I'm a farmer and when I go home, every once in a while, the feed lot in my... my farm has filled up to a certain level, and what I do on the weekends, when I'm not taking care of my correspondences. I go out and haul, what's known as, manure. Now, when I get done with that job, it may take six or eight hours to haul the manure, when I get down with that, I don't smell very good. Well, let me make an analogy, this chamber doesn't smell very good. I think we need an investigation. When one of our former colleagues is paid for doing nothing, admits he did nothing, and yet, the state coffers our raped, we are writing checks out as bribes. Remove yourself from the House, so that we won't have trouble defending that seat. There's only one vote difference between the Democratic side and the Republican side, if you lose that seat next time, it's a great temptation to try to find some incentive to remove that dead weight in your caucus. Well, you removed them, but I think that the method that you used was improper. I don't want to have to go home and know that I smell worse down here, because I'm a Member of this Assembly, than I do when I'm home hauling manure. Thank you."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Winters. The Gentleman from McLean, Representative Brady." 75  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of personal privilege."

"State your point, Mr. Brady."

"Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to be a Member of the Illinois House. I have been and I will hopefully continue to be, but the events of the last couple days have saddened me greatly and many Members of this House. We are in a state of confusion. We are in a state of inability to do the people's work. Not only does this chamber deserve to have the understanding, an explanation, but the people of Illinois deserve to know what's going on. They deserve an understanding so that this House can go along with its business, the people's business, and until we hear from the real Speaker, the Gentleman from Cook, about exactly how he intends to handle this situation, you can see that this House cannot move forward. I ask you and every Member of this Body to ask the Gentleman from Cook to rise and explain to us what has happened and what he intends to do about it, to bring back pride within this House, so that the people of Illinois can know that their work will be done here. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Gentleman from Cook to rise, the Speaker of the House, and explain to us what has happened and what he intends to do."

"Thank you, Mr. Brady. The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Parke. Representative Parke."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."

"Somebody take responsibility on your side of the aisle, for once, for something. I'm not Paula Jones, I'm not going away. Somebody take responsibility."

"Mr. Speaker, It's obvious..."

Speaker Granberg: "Mr. Parke, did you imply that he was Paula Jones?"

"Excuse me?" 76  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Did you imply that Mr. Black was Paula Jones? I didn't..."

"I don't want to make light of this issue, so I'm not going to answer that question, but you can see that, obviously, on our side of the aisle that we think this ought to be addressed. It's an awkward thing and I think that, to some degree, it's an embarrassing thing. I would think that the Speaker, who we elected to lead the House, should be in the Chair to handle this. It's obvious that you can't do it, because you're not the Speaker, you're not the real Speaker. So, I would think that Speaker Madigan ought to address us and just tell us where he wants to go with this issue so we can move on with the other work of the House, but until we can get some answers on direction at least, I think the people of Illinois deserve that. This is kind of embarrassing, it's a shame we have to... we have to go on with this rather than doing the work of the people, but it has to be answered, and you can see that we're going to continue to want and seek answers, as we should be. It's unfortunate that it's somewhat partisan, but, you know, I wou... I'm sure that Members on the other side, also, would like to have some ideas of what's going on here. So, I would feel more comfortable if Speaker Madigan would take the Chair and at least tell us where he wants to go with this, so the Body can understand the direction, cause I'm sure he's going move in a responsible manner on this and try to handle this in a way that does damage control for... for your side of the aisle, but also, to let the people of Illinois know where we're going to go with this. So, for you to stand up there and just say, 'Fine, I'll just keep calling on each Member until they're done,' begs the issue. You won't answer our questions, so 77  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 therefore, I think Speaker Madigan should do that and tell us where he wants to with this so that we can stop this... this perceived partisan approach and try to make sure we have some answers and directions, so, I would ask Speaker Madigan to take rise to handle the Chair for a moment, tell us what he wants to do with this, and let's move on with the business of the House. What do you say, Mr. Speaker? Do you think that's a reasonable request at this time?"

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you for your comments, Mr. Parke. The Gentleman from Vermilion, Representative Black. Mr. Black, you're seeking recognition again?"

"It won't go away."

"Mr. Black."

"Mr. Speaker."

"Mr. Parke, Mr. Black has the floor first."

"Mr. Speaker."

"We'll go back to you, Mr. Parke, after Mr. Black."

"Why would you want to go back to me? Just answer my question. You don't need to go back to me. Do you think that that's a reasonable request?"

"We thank you for your comments, Mr. Parke."

"No, that's not what I'm looking for. I know you're going to blunt the issue. I want an answer. I'm not unreasonable on this one."

"Mr. Black, you were seeking recognition again, Sir?"

"Mr. Speaker, the issue won't go away. We didn't make up the issue. I'm responding to what I read in the morning papers. Now, not only are the Members of this Body entitled to an answer and who is the responsible party, but what steps, if... if this is blown out of proportion? If 78  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 it is not accurate, if it isn't correct, tell us. On the other hand, if contracts were issued for no work, if people in this Body signed vouchers on which they certify work was done, and no work was, in fact, done, then you are looking at a much more serious issue than all of the shrug of the shoulders is going to accomplish. This isn't going to go away. I would think you would rather handle it internally in the General Assembly, then to handle it in a court of law. Now, somebody is responsible for this. That individual needs to address this Body and tell us, and the public, what transpired, why it transpired, and what is being done about it. And Mr. Speaker, if you will absolutely refuse to let anyone take responsibility, and the Gentleman sitting to your left signed these vouchers, he signed these vouchers on behalf of Michael J. Madigan, that is irrefutable. Now, somebody is going to have to answer for this. I would think we could do it within this Body, within this chamber, within this hour. You evidently don't think we need to address it, it's going to go away, it isn't going to go away. It is not going to go away, and if you refuse to answer our questions, I will seek a Republican Caucus, immediately."

"Thank you, Mr. Black. The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Tom Johnson, is seeking recognition." Johnson, Tom: "Did you want a caucus?"

Speaker Granberg: "Did you want Representative Johnson to proceed, Mr. Black, or did you want to wait on your request?

"I always defer to my colleague, Representative Johnson."

"You're a Gentleman, Mr. Black."

"I'm..." 79  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Proceed, Mr. Johnson." Johnson, Tom: "You know, we're over here today and we're raising a lot of issues and these... I want to emphasize, I believe these are extremely serious issues and extremely serious allegations if what we read in the press is correct and I think that it casts a pall and a cloud on this entire House, all of us, until the bottom of it, the bottom of the... the allegations are at least exposed, explained, whatever the case may be. You know, we have heard an awful lot in the press recently, about the investigations in Washington and so on, in terms of perjury, obstruction of justice, quid pro quos for votes or for cash. We've witnessed almost a year or more of indictments in the City of Chicago under Silver Shovel and others on ghost pay rolling schemes, and yesterday, we sat and debated campaign ethics and reform. The Speaker brought forth his Bill, in which, he... part of that Bill is to make sure that even on professional contracts in excess of $10,000, that certain disclosures and certain competitive bids, and so on, would be involved. Here we have a case where one of our colleagues leaves the office at an interesting period of time, turns around and ends up with a contractor... a contract with the state for $20,000 to provide written reports, memorandum, legal opinions, et cetera. No bid contract. Twenty thousand dollars. We subsequently, at least, we read in the papers that supposedly this individual, one of our colleagues, who gets this $20,000 contract, leaves the House, provides no services under that contract, continues to get paid. It appears as though the payments were approved, at least indicating that there should have been some work done or I can't imagine why we would be approving payments, and if, in fact, those 80  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 vouchers are such that we sign and say, 'Yes, the work is done. Pay the individual,' and in fact, he has not done it, that really amounts to perjury on those forms. This is serious business people, this is not just a political, oh let's stand up and jump and yell. This cries out for some sort of an investigation and hopefully the state's attorney in this county or the federal prosecutor in this district or the Attorney General of the State of Illinois will get involved here and at least let's follow up. Let's get to the bottom of this, unless, there is a full and final explanation that will withstand the light of day and the scrutiny of all of us as Members of this Body, as well as, the people of the State of Illinois, so that this cloud can be removed and we can move on. But this is serious business. This is not something to stand up and shout and clamor about. This requires a full-scale investigation, in my opinion, every bit as much as any ghost payrolling scheme in the Chi... City of Chicago did. Thank you."

"Thank you, Mr. Johnson. The Lady from Cook, Representative Mulligan."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also rise to a point of personal privilege. Yesterday we were discussing ethics Bill in this Body, some of which I questioned as to the fact that the campaign contributions would give the leaders too much power. I find it very strange that only this side of the aisle is standing up to speak to this issue and perhaps Members on the other side should. Having come through a hard primary, I found that it was hard to even convey issues to my district because of what was going on at the federal level and what the general concept was of how people feel about politicians and Legislators. No matter how much work I do in this Body, no matter what I 81  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 do, no matter how good the Bills are that we pass, they are clouded over by issues such as this. I would think Members of both sides of this Body would stand up and ask for something to be done about this issue, and some discussion to be made to clear it, so that by the time we go back home and run for reelection we can at least talk to our constituents about issues and not have personal things, such as this, cloud over what we do for our own integrity, and I find it very strange that we're the only ones that are speaking to this as it hurts everyone in this Body that's an elected Legislator."

"The Gentleman from DuPage, Mr. Biggins. You rise again, Sir?"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again on a point of personal privilege. I guess we're not going to get many answers to our questions, but I'd like to just offer some questions for the Body and the Speaker to consider answering. As far as ghost gate goes, we know that the next leader... this has implications beyond one trading of a House seat down in southern Illinois. The next leader of the Democratic Party in the State of Illinois leads this chamber. Is this the ethics package that he is going to take as he leads the State Democratic Party into the November fall elections? We saw the candidate for Governor on the Democratic side being paraded around the House earlier this morning. I'm wondering if he has a position on ghost gate, and if he does, I'd like to hear what his position is on people that get a contract, signed by an officer of this Body, who then does not do any work, but gets paid. I have to also ask if there is a second contract out there we haven't seen yet that if the individual does any work does he get even more money under the second contract, if that exists? I think 82  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 these are good questions and legitimate ones to ask, and ask that... you know, a year ago or a couple years ago, it was, we had one of our young staff members who resigned when he made an error, admitted to the error, handled it like a true Illinois patriot and resigned his position. I would wonder if the individual who signed the contract is going to also resign following the footsteps that preceded him by the honorable way the Republican Party operates in the State of Illinois. I await an answer to any and all of those questions. Do you have an idea, Mr. Speaker, when I might get some answers to my questions?"

Speaker Granberg: "You might have to contact, Mr. Poshard, directly on that, Mr. Biggins. Thank you. The Gentleman from Kendall, Mr. Cross."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess we haven't been specific enough, or at least you haven't acknowledged it, maybe we can help you. I referred earlier to a contractual service voucher that apparently no one wishes to deny occurred and was signed by, it looks like the agency had Mr. Mapes, that alleged that there were... was work done by Mr. Bradford, which Mr. Bradford now claims never happened. I would refer you, Mr. Speaker, and anyone else on your side that cares to look to the State Finance Act, which requires that, 'When a certification to be signed on behalf of the state agency on every state voucher for goods and services performed, it has to be signed'. Which this one has. It also provides that, 'To execute this knowingly and intentionally, or to execute knowingly and intentionally a false certification, results in removal from office, removal from office if done by an officer or if discharged by an employer'. Do you intend to have removed from office, the person that signed this voucher? Yes or no." 83  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

"Mr. Cross, I can't comment on that matter."

"Well, when can we expect an answer? Ghost gate deserves a response, Mr. Speaker. This is absurd. When are we going to know who is going to take responsibility for this action? The State Finance Act says, 'If you sign it, knowingly, and it's been falsely done, you've got to be removed from office'. When are we going to have it happen?"

"Mr Cross, I'm sure you're going to provide those documents to the appropriate person. Thank you."

"No one is disputing it was signed, Mr. Speaker. Ghost gate is here to stay."

"Thank you, Mr. Cross."

"It's here to stay."

"Mr. Block. Black, I'm sorry. I might have been referring to the legislation."

"Mr. Speaker. I'm on record. I have publicly acknowledged my respect for Speaker Madigan. It's been in the print. I admire and respect the man, personally. I admire and respect the man as a political servant in the State of Illinois. I admire and respect the man as Speaker of the House. He is soon to become the Leader of the Democratic Party of the State of Illinois. This Gentleman, who I've expressed my respect and admiration for publicly on more than one occasion, and I've had the opportunity to travel with him and meet some of his family, and I've worked with his wife on a project in my hometown. He is a... everyone in this chamber knows, he is a superb tactician and strategist, but he is about to become the single most powerful Democrat in the State of Illinois, probably in the history of the State of Illinois. That spontaneous display was deserved, I almost felt like 84  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 joining in it myself. But, in all due respect to the Gentleman, absolute power can be a corrupting influence. Now, if the President of the United States, on occasion, has had to apologize and accept responsibility for what occurred on his watch... Mr. Speaker... Mr. Speaker, you're no different, if you are indeed about to become the most powerful Democrat in the State of Illinois, then you must accept tremendous responsibility for the actions of your party and those who serve it, and serve it well. This is not of our doing. It's been reported in the press. Something isn't right, it happened on your watch. You must take the ultimate responsibility for that. You owe it to your party. You owe it to the people of the State of Illinois. You owe it to all the Members of this General Assembly, to address what happened on your watch, to address the problem and assure us that steps are being taken to either correct it or to make certain that it will not happen again. While you were gone, I found that your name was used to substitute people in committees. You weren't here. Now, where does it stop? Where does it stop? I applaud you on the service to your party and the grand office that you are about to hold, but, Mr. Speaker, my respect for you will not be diminished by a simple appearance in the Chair, accept the responsibility of your offices and explain to the chamber what transpired, why, and your plans and provisions to correct it and prevent it from happening again. I would expect no less of my Leader. I certainly expect no less from you, Sir. You owe us that."

Speaker Granberg: "I'm just checking Mr. Black, to see if any of the Republicans want to rise on a point. The Gentleman from Cook, Speaker Madigan." 85  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998

Speaker Madigan: "Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, and in particular, Mr. Black, before I begin my remarks, Mr. Black, I want to offer two exceptions. Number one, if you believe that I am so powerful, I would wish that you would come to a meeting of the House Democratic Caucus someday.

"I did one day and you threw me out."

Speaker Madigan: "Because we wanted to spare you a lot a grief. And number two, I do wish to take exceptions to the categorization of me as the most powerful Democrat in the State of Illinois. I do think that person is the Mayor of Chicago. Many of you who have spoken to certain events which have been reported by the media and reported by several of you today. I plan to respond, probably not to your full satisfaction, and I don't plan to answer questions submitted by certain of you, as to who did what, because I have listened to certain of you calling for investigations by the State's Attorney of Sangamon County and the U.S. Attorney for this particular district, and in the event, that type of an investigation is commenced, I plan to cooperate with that investigation, and not to be put into a position where I have spoken previously, relative to the questions that may be submitted to me. We became aware of this problem, at least I became aware of it on Tuesday, and we immediately sent a letter to Mr. Bradford, which reads as such: 'Mr. Bradford, It is clear that an administrative mistake has occurred within our office concerning your professional service contract for legal research. Therefore, the following steps must be taken immediately to correct the situation. It is requested that you remit $9,697.20 to the State Treasury as reimbursement for the net payments you received under the 86  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 existing contract. The existing contract is canceled, effective this date. Upon acknowledgement of this payment, a new professional services contract will be entered into with our office. In anticipation of this action, legal research assignments have been sent to you for completion. It is hoped that these steps will remove any confusion that may have occurred with this office concerning this professional service contract. Your cooperation with these steps is greatly appreciated'. Mr. Bradford's check was received in our office today, and is on its way to the office of the State Comptroller right now. That's my response to your inquiries. The plan for the rest of the day is to begin by calling Republican Bills to determine if you wish to call your Bills, or if you wish to continue on with this discussion. If you choose to continue on with this discussion, then we'll go to the matter of the Adjournment Resolution and we can all begin our Easter holiday. Could you call some Bills, Mr. Speaker?

"Thank you, Speaker Madigan. The Gentleman from DuPage, Representative Daniels is seeking recognition."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, and thank you, Mr. Madigan, for a partial clarification. We, of course, are very concerned about this issue and the Speaker is correct, that there may be other agencies that are going to look at this and, we respect that and understand that certain people will not be able to answer questions because they may have to answer them under oath. The fact of the matter is, the concern on the factual matter that we're looking at right now, relates to the issuance of a contract that's very carefully tied into a resignation from office, and just prior to that, Mr. 87  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Bradford was given a job in the State's Attorney's office in Madison County, specifically on October 21, 1997, when Mr. Bradford then resigned on October 26, 1997, Mr. Hoffman was appointed to his spot on October 27, 1997 and a $20,000 contract was given to Mr. Bradford on November 1, 1997. The concerns we have is, this deals with a sitting Legislator, one of our colleagues, and there has been extensive media reports, and we only know what we read in the media relating to this, that these resignations were somewhat questionable, as to whether or not Mr. Bradford was encouraged to leave office because of the issuance of contracts. In and of itself, Mr. Madigan has every right in the world to issue contracts, and that's solely within his authority and he has the power to do that, and there are contracts for communication people, one of them is standing right there watching this whole thing very carefully. There are contracts for people that will be consultants and it's done by various people throughout time, but the real question then, gets into what happened after the contract was entered into, and whether or not there was any coercion involved in handing out the contract in the first place. Because after the contract was handed out, there was certification that work was performed on several different certified vouchers, which according to state law, that Representative Cross read, that if you violate those certification, it requires the removal of that person from office. Specifically, it would require Mr. Mapes, who signed those vouchers, to leave office. He is the person that represented that the work had been done. Then there was an apparent statement later on that appeared in the paper that was an acknowledgement that no work had been done. But some of the things that concerned us the 88  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 most, based upon this contract, (a) handed out in an apparent effort to get Mr. Bradford to resign in cooperation with the state's attorney of the local county, (b) Mr. Hoffman's replacement of Mr. Bradford, on or about the same time, and the exchanging of contracts that Mr. Hoffman had, and he then gives his contract to Mr. Bradford, and (c) the $20,000 that are obligated on behalf of the people of Illinois with falsified or apparently falsified vouchers, and on their face, this builds an extremely strong circumstantial case that lays the ground work for whether or not there were violations of state or federal law. State law on fraud, conspiracy to commit fraud, and federal law on mail fraud. Now, we've seen aldermen in Chicago being convicted and having to leave office because of ghost payrolling, and we've seen other things occur, as well. But the thing that bothers us, even beyond this, is that there is a statement that appears that the Speaker intends to give Mr. Bradford another contract. These are questions that we have that need to be answered. Only Mr. Madigan can answer those questions, and only Mr. Mapes can take the responsibility for the actions of signing those vouchers, if done improperly. And, Mr. Mapes, you are not an officer of this General Assembly and maybe you should answer those questions to the Members of the General Assembly. We are officers of the General Assembly. If this work was not performed, the question we would want to know of you is, why did you sign a voucher saying the work was performed? It's not an administrative matter, you are the Chief of Staff. You do work for the Speaker of the House, and you do work for the people of Illinois. If you falsified the fact that Mr. Bradford conducted this work, state law provides for you to leave 89  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 office. These are serious, serious concerns, all brought up by local media around Mr. Bradford's district. We have picked up on those reporting. This is not something that we have made up. Like you, we want answers and we hope they are forthcoming immediately, because it does prevent the orderly exchange of information in this General Assembly, and makes this assembly have various question marks over it, that have to be answered immediately."

Speaker Granberg: "Thank you, Mr. Daniels. House Bill 2687, Representative Saviano. Read the Bill, Mr. Clerk."

"House Bill 2687, a Bill for an Act to amend the Naprapathic Practice Act. Third Reading of this House Bill."

Speaker Granberg: "The Gentleman from Cook, Representative Saviano."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Members of the House. House Bill 2687 as amended, represents the Committee Bill from the House Registration and Regulation Committee. The main provision in this Bill is the Licensing Act for Orthotics, the Orthotics Act. I've talked to my counterpart in the Senate, Senator Burzynski. He has plans to dismantle this Bill and use it as a Vehicle and I would ask that we approve this, based on the fact that there's some unfinished business that we have in relation to the Senate Licensing Committee and we'll be working together to come up with a Bill that we could address various concerns with and I would ask for your approval. Thank you."

"The Gentleman moves for the passage of House Bill 2687. On that question, is there any discussion? The Gentleman from Vermilion, Representative Black."

"Mr. Speaker, it's obvious we're not going to get any answers. There's a black cloud hanging over the General 90  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Assembly. I move we adjourn."

"Mr. Black, I will address that issue. Did you want to go to caucus first, or did you actually want to do the Motion to Adjourn?"

"Let's go home. Let's adjourn."

"Mr. Saviano, do you want... do you want to try to proceed with this Bill before the adjournment?"

"Excuse me. Could you ask me that question, please?"

"Mr. Saviano, would you like to try to proceed with your Bill prior to the Adjournment Motion?"

"So, do we..."

"Mr. Black has a Motion to Adjourn."

"An inquiry to the Chair. Will we be extending deadlines, the deadline on House Bills?"

"Mr. Saviano, I think your party is indicating, no, and they wish to adjourn. Now, it's your call if you could have Mr. Daniels agree to having your Bill called, if not, then Mr. Black's Motion is in order. The Gentleman from Cook, Speaker Madigan."

"Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the Minority Party has indicated they do not wish to continue, and therefore, I would request that you call the Adjournment Resolution, and that we finish our work for this week."

"Sorry, Mr. Saviano. Mr. Clerk."

Clerk Rossi: "House Joint Resolution 60. House Joint Resolution 60, offered by Representative Currie, be it resolved by the House of Representatives of the 90th General Assembly of the State of Illinois, the Senate concurring herein, that when the House of Representatives adjourns on Thursday, April 2, 1998, it stands adjourned until Friday, April 3, 1998, in Perfunctory Session. And when it adjourns on that day, it stands adjourned until Tuesday, April 7, 1998 in 91  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 Perfunctory Session. And when it adjourns on that day, it stands adjourned until Thursday, April 9, 1998 in Perfunctory Session. And when it adjourns on that day, it stands adjourned until Tuesday, April 14, 1998 in Perfunctory Session. And when it adjourns on that day, it stands adjourned until Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 1:00 p.m., and when the Senate adjourns on Thursday, April 2, 1998, it stands adjourned until Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 12:00 noon."

Speaker Granberg: "You've heard the Resolution. Now, the Lady from Cook, Majority Leader Currie, moves the House stand adjourned pursuant to the Resolution. All in favor say 'aye'; opposed 'nay'. The 'ayes' have it. The House stands adjourned allowing perfunctory time for the Clerk."

Clerk Rossi: "Senate Bill 1028, offered by Representative Holbrook, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Controlled Substances Act. Senate Bill 1210, offered by Representative Hartke, a Bill for an Act to amend the Property Tax Code. Senate Bill 1215, offered by Representative Schoenberg, a Bill for an Act to amend the Criminal Code of 1961. Senate Bill 1251, offered by Representative Saviano, a Bill for an Act to amend the Barber Cosmetology Esthetics and Nail Technology Act of 1985. Senate Bill 1259, offered by Representative Pankau, a Bill for an Act concerning parentage. Senate Bill 499, offered by Representative Hoeft, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Pension Code. Senate Bill 1288, offered by Representative Kosel, a Bill for an Act to amend the Toll Highway Act. Senate Bill 1315, offered by Representative Schoenberg, a Bill for an Act regarding immunizations. Senate Bill 1335, offered by Representative Acevedo, a Bill for an Act in relation to criminal law. First Reading of 92  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 these Senate Bills. Introduction of Resolutions. House Resolution 395, offered by Representative Black and House Joint Resolution 59, offered by Representative Brunsvold, are referred to the Rules Committee. Introduction and First Reading of Senate Bills. Senate Bill 1458, offered by Representative Brunsvold, a Bill for an Act in relation to taxes. Senate Bill 1290, offered by Representative Hartke, a Bill for an Act to amend the Counties Code. Senate Bill 1293, offered by Representative Black, a Bill for an Act to amend the Illinois Vehicle Code. Senate Bill 1349, offered by Representative Andrea Moore, a Bill for an Act in relation to taxes. Senate Bill 1386, offered by Representative Dart, a Bill for an Act in relation to visitation rights. Senate Bill 743, offered by Representative McGuire, a Bill for Act to create the Senior Housing with Services Act. Senate Bill 1473, offered by Representative Ryder, a Bill for an Act concerning health care facilities. Senate Bill 1544, offered by Representative Dart, a Bill for an Act to amend the Mechanics Lein Act. Senate Bill 1567, offered by Representative Scott, a Bill for an Act concerning subscription to telecommunication services. Senate Bill 1622, offered by Representative Noland, a Bill for an Act to amend the Alternate Fuels Act. Senate Bill 1700, offered by Representative Durkin, a Bill for an Act concerning child support. Senate Bill 1713, offered by Representative Dart, a Bill for an Act relating to sexually violent persons. Senate Bill 1784, offered by Representative Hannig, a Bill for an Act regarding appropriations. Senate Bill 1785, offered by Representative Hannig, a Bill for an Act regarding appropriations. Senate Bill 1786, offered by Representative Hannig, a Bill for an Act regarding 93  STATE OF ILLINOIS 90TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 108th Legislative Day April 2, 1998 appropriations. Senate Bill 1787, offered by Representative Hannig, a Bill for an Act regarding appropriations. Senate Bill 1853, offered by Representative Morrow, a Bill for an Act to amend the Public Utilities Act. First Reading of these Senate Bills. There being no further business, the House Perfunctory Session stands adjourned. The House will reconvene in Perfunctory Session on Friday, April 3rd." 94