Illinois House Floor Debate — April 10, 2008

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Please let the record reflect that Representatives: Brady, Lindner, and Watson are excused on the Republican side of the aisle today."

"A… Sorry, Mr. Speaker, I was going to speak on the debate, but it doesn’t look like we're going to have a debate at this point."

"Thank you, Speaker. The Republicans would request an immediate caucus in Room 118."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don’t know what I can add to that except we just want to welcome the family and Gene, and all the service that he does to our community. It's a whole lot more than duck calls. The whole family is involved in the community and they're a true… a blessing to Jackson County and all the Southern Illinois area. And it's only appropriate that we name this pond after Gene. But, just so you know…" Phelps, Dave: "Mr. Speaker, Dave Phelps, former Member. I've always wanted to speak on this side of the aisle. Folks, here I am, but I won't get to serious other than to know that this family needs to be honored for their charitable work and what they stand for. And Brandon and Mike are bringing honor to them today. So, God Bless all of you."

"We just… we just want to say thank you. But Brandon and I think… Brandon, you… you want to talk like we can talk? Okay, I think you want to talk… turn my mic, off though."

"Yes I do, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Chair. I'm a little puzzled by something. Last year, Mr. Speaker, we had Committee of the Whole meetings on a variety of topics. Committee of the Whole on the Gross Receipts Tax. In fact, I think it was just a Resolution that we voted on. But we had nevertheless, had a Committee of the Whole to discuss the issue in great detail. In fact, that issue was around for weeks if not months, before we even had that Committee of the Whole and before we had discussion on it, before we had the debate. This Constitutional Amendment I think we saw for the first time the end of last week, which as you know, doubles the income tax rate for certain families and small businesses in the State of Illinois. We then had a Committee of the Whole last year on electric rate deregulation, an issue involving families in this state. We had a Committee of the Whole on the lottery lease and pension bond issue. We had another Committee of the Whole on just the issue of pensions. We had a Committee of the Whole on teachers' retirement. We had a 09500250.doc 9  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 Committee of the Whole on the Department of Health Care and Family Child Support Administration fund. We had a Committee of the Whole dealing with health care and family services involving grants for sexual assault. We had a Committee of the Whole on teachers' retirement. We had a Committee of the Whole dealing with the budget Veto by the Governor. We had a Committee of the Whole on Health Care and family services. So, my inquiry of the Chair is, given the magnitude of this issue, the significant increase doesn’t effect property taxes whatsoever, adversely effects and impacts small businesses and consumers, does nothing to relieve the unpaid liability we have as a state. We've seen it for three (3) days, we don’t know what it does for our schools. We don’t know what it does for capital. Why wouldn’t we have a Committee of the Whole to have a full blown debate and discussion about one of the largest tax increases, at least from a constitutional standpoint, we've ever seen. And of course this is on top of Cook County government putting us to #1 in this country with their sales tax of over 10 percent. Don’t you think we ought to have some policy arguments about and discussions from those that are affected and impacted in a… kind a open daylight process as opposed to ramming this through with a couple of days and not having any input? I… I'm curious as to whether or not the Chair would entertain a Committee of the Whole. We'd, of course, like to be involved in putting together the witness list. Those small farmers in southern Illinois that are going to be adversely impacted by this; the mother or father buying a van for their family that 09500250.doc 10  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 will be impacted by this; the nursing home operator that's not going to get paid because this Bill does nothing about it. Those families throughout Illinois that aren’t going to get property tax relief, maybe they'd have an opportunity to come testify; maybe the school districts not knowing if their going to get any money would have an opportunity to provide some impact. So, what… what would be the harm in having a Committee of the Whole for all of the people of Illinois to understand what you're trying to do here?"

"I understand. I understand, I agree with that."

"This is a Bill that, as I'd said to you, has a pretty negative impact to a lot of people in this state. And we had a committee hearing that lasted, I don’t know a little bit… a little while yesterday, doubling of the tax potentially from three (3) to six (6). We're raising all kinds of money and of course, we've seen your Party for the last five (5) years spend money in a reckless manner and you don’t even want to have an opportunity to have a Committee of the Whole like we did on ten other issues, that… at that… moment we thought were important to the people of the State of Illinois. And we can't even have an open debate for the whole House to talk about the 09500250.doc 11  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 ramifications of this? Where we can have people come in and say, this is what's going to happen to my farm; this is going to what… going to be what happens to my small little hardware store; this is going to be what happens to my small little accounting practice or I've got property tax problems and you don’t… you're not doing anything about this that I see or I'm paying gas $4.00 a gallon and I don’t see anything here that does anything about that. I… I'm really struggling to understand why we wouldn’t open this up to the whole state, let them come down before the Members of the General Assembly like we had under electric dereg. I remember a Representative from Southern Illinois did a very fine job holding that Committee of the Whole. Everybody got an opportunity to speak that wanted to. And this would be an opportunity for the people of the State of Illinois to have some input and let us know the ramifications of this. Maybe we find out it's good; but we won't know because we're not going to let people at this point, I think, have an opportunity to voice their concerns about this Bill. So, Mr. Speaker, is there an opportunity for us to have a Committee of the Whole maybe next week, maybe the week we're off. We've got time to do it. We don’t adjourn, I don’t think, until the end of May if all goes well. And I don’t know why that wouldn’t happen."

"When… When is that deadline Mr. Speaker? When is that deadline? I think it’s the…" 09500250.doc 12  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"We've got plenty of time. We know that…"

"…we know that when people work together you can…"

"We know that when people work together you can get things passed and recent history would maybe suggest that doesn’t happen often, but it can. And if it's so good we certainly would have an opportunity to do that. Let's do it next week, do it at the beginning of the week. We'd like to participate."

"So… so it was, ok, a year ago and we actually joined you and we thought it was the right thing to do on just a Resolution, just a Resolution, opposing a tax which we, believe me, opposed. Was our side that actually introduced that Resolution first and had some members of your side come over and say please let us join. Then we did a… we did a Committee of the Whole on a Resolution and we can't do a Committee of the Whole on a tax increase, a doubling of the tax in the State of Illinois to raise three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) and we can't have a Committee of the Whole to talk about that? Is there something wrong with that? I think there's something wrong with that, Mr. 09500250.doc 13  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 Speaker. You… we know you're in power. We know you can ram this through. You've got the votes to a… tell us, no, we're not going to do a Committee of the Whole. We're not going to have an open discussion about it. We're not going to have an open debate about it. That's fine, Mr. Speaker, but I think we're starting to see a return to the old days of Democrat control and power and the utilization of that power. You do what you want to do, Mr. Speaker, but I… I think it's a grave injustice to people of this state. We'll debate this Bill when… at the amount of time we're given."

"To… to move that we adjourn to the hour of noon on Monday the 14th for the purpose of creating a Committee of the Whole to invite taxpayers and others of interest to the House chamber along with our Senate colleagues at the hour of noon on Monday."

"I would like a recorded vote."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker and to that Motion. It… It seems only appropriate that in the…" 09500250.doc 14  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"Then I have a further inquiry of the Chair."

"Why would you be opposed to having public input on such a huge issue?"

"No, it's a commonsense question and I already know the answer."

"Thanks, Mr. Speaker. Would it be possible to have a little order in here? I mean, we are talking about one of the largest tax increases if not in the history of the State of Illinois."

"Thank you. Representative, a couple things. I'm… I'm going through your Amendment. How much property tax relief is in this particular Constitutional Amendment?"

"Thank you. You… you talked about a property tax or a personal exemption r… being raised to… I think from 2,000 to maybe a little higher to four (4,000). That equates in 09500250.doc 18  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 our numbers to about seventy-five dollars ($75) a person. Is that the extent of any relief you have in this Bill?"

"Okay. Thank you."

"We might… I think we disagree, but at the… end of the day with this large tax increase the most a family is going to see is a couple hundred… couple hundred dollars ($200), maybe three hundred ($300), but no property tax relief for sure. There's no question about the fact that there's no property tax whatsoever in this Bill or this Amendment for Illinois families?"

"Okay. Thank you very much. What do you do in this Bill with respect to you… you raise some money you say for capital, how much of this money is going to be spent on roads?"

"Okay. So there's nothing in here about how it's spent?"

"But, you're asking people to vote for an increase… tax increase, but yet… Mr… Representative, I want to make sure that we're all very clear. There is no specificity in here as to whether it's going to go to roads, school construction, higher education, mass transit, whatsoever. That is correct, is it not?"

"Okay. Thank you very much. We have seen over a number of years some rather what I would describe, this is my characterization, pretty reckless spending by this state. A… and I don’t… I think it would be hard to dispute that. What does this Bill do specifically in the area of reducing the approximately forty billion dollar ($40,000,000,000) unfunded liability we have for pensions?"

"So this Bill, I want to… let's make sure we're clear. This Amendment does nothing to reduce the Medicaid liability, does nothing to reduce the pension liability, does nothing to take care of the health care state obligation that's about forty billion dollars ($40,000,000,000) and does nothing to pay those un… unpaid 09500250.doc 20  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 bills that the Comptroller says are about 1.7. That's correct, is it not?"

"Okay. Now, can you tell me the billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) or so that you were going to spend on public education. I represent the Plainfield School District and the Oswego School District, the Troy School District. What can I tell my school districts they'll get when this passes?"

"How do I know that? And how can I go to my superintendent in my residents and say you are going to get this amount of money? I heard that on the House Floor in the debate and this is how much you're going to get, and this is how it's going to be used and for what projects, whether it's categoricals, whether it's special ed, whether it's early childhood. I want to be able to specifically tell my school district what they're going to get under this Amendment."

"Are we… Representative, do we know for a fact and I'm not so sure we do, but there's a formula now for both K-12. 09500250.doc 21  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 We got a formula for higher ed, as you know. Will… will it flow into there or is there going to be a different area it goes, the money?"

"So, while you can… you're going to say there's more money. No one here today that's voting for this tax increase can sit in front of a school board or residents of their district and say this is what you're going to get or go back to my universities, our universities, our community colleges and say this is what you're going to get, because we don’t know."

"Okay. We don’t know…"

"So, we don’t know, though, Representative, whether it's going to go upstate, downstate, City of Chicago? We just know that there's a bigger pot, we're not going to tell anybody how we're going to spend it. That's correct?"

"Okay. We kind of had this issue many years ago, Representative, where we told people we're going to give you more money for education. Remember that little issue called the lottery? And how many of us have heard time and time again from our constituencies that what are you doing with that lottery money? And it seems to me, Representative, that we're falling down into the same type of trap when we're looking at a Constitutional Amendment but yet, we have absolutely no idea where this money is going to go and you're asking people to vote for it. In fact, you're asking residents of Illinois to vote for a Constitutional Amendment, but…"

"But we don’t know where. And you've conceded you don’t know where it goes. Now, there's no question and one of the big arguments with the gross receipts tax that we all voted on on a Resolution soon after Committee of the Whole was that the tax increase was going to be passed on to consumers, the people that buy vans and screwdrivers and coffee and blue jeans and backpacks to go back to school. What is… what do you have in this Bill, Representative, or in this Amendment that will… we can say to consumers in the State of Illinois who already have pretty high electric bills, who already have gas going up to almost $4.00 a 09500250.doc 23  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 gallon. They live in Cook County they have sales tax at over 10 percent and the list goes on and on. What can we say to those folks that are buying the goods in the State of Illinois that this isn't going to impact you as a consumer? Mom, as you're trying to get your kids back to school or dad and mom trying to make that mortgage payment or family trying to get that young person into a higher education facility, you're not going to be impacted by this… by this inevitable flow to consumers that, you on your side and we on our side, all agree is the inevitable results of a tax increase; that it negatively impacts consumers. How can we say to consumers it ain't going to happen?"

"Maybe to…"

"Representative, let's make sure we clear that number. You said four hundred dol… three hundred dollars ($300), based on a family of four, but really, with a working family the mom and dad, we're probably talking a hundred and fifty ($150) or two hundred dollars ($200) on top of all the things going on in this economy right now, where we have… where we have the gas prices…" 09500250.doc 24  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"Right. But what I'm talking about, Representative, and let's make sure that we're very clear about this 'cause I don’t think there's much misunderstanding about this. That personal exemption translates into approximately seventy- five dollars ($75) a person. And what you did is, say an average family of four (4) is how you get to the three hundred (300). But the reality is, for a couple working hard, they may see… they may see a hundred and fifty dollars ($150) at most on doubling of the tax. So, let me ask you a couple of other questions if I can."

"Excuse me one second. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker…

"…can we be assured that everybody will have ample opportunity to speak today? I… I just want to make sure that we're not going to cut anybody off."

"Thank you. But, you're not going to cut anybody off from debate and you've got 5 minutes, but if everybody wants to speak they'll be allowed to?"

"Okay. Representative, what can we say to the folks here in the State of Illinois that as we see unemployment at an all-time, maybe not at an all-time high, but a fairly significant level, mortgage foreclosures going on. What can we say to those folks that is in this Bill that ensures them that they… there will not be a job loss in the State of Illinois. Because as a general rule, I think everybody would agree from a policy standpoint with this tax increase negatively impacts the job growth, the job creation in the State of Illinois. What's in this Bill that says it ain't going to happen?"

"Just for the record, we have the largest sales tax in the country if… if you weren’t sure about that. Mr. Speaker…" 09500250.doc 26  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"Well, only in Cook County. The Cook County that we all say is the economic engine of this State and yet we put this huge baffle on it at 10 percent, if not higher, where people are saying, why do I want to shop in Cook County. Mr. Speaker, to the Bill. You bring a very, very, very significant issue to this House without really not… giving it an opportunity to debate… to be debated and heard from from around the State like we've done on previous issues, which I find a bit troubling. And you're also asking people to vote on a Bill and ask the people ultimately of this State to vote on a Bill where they have absolutely no idea where the money's going to be spent or how it's going to be spent. We… we're told some money's going to be there for capital, but we don’t know if it's going to be for roads, we don’t know if it's going to be for schools, we don’t know if it's going to be for mass transit. You then ask us and tell us, oh, we're going to have more money for education. Mr. Speaker, I know your side's already been told how to vote and maybe they don’t care. Our side is still trying to figure this Bill out. So, again, I'd like a little order around here if we're going to debate about a doubling of the state income tax. You're asking us to vote on a doubling of the tax increase for our schools, but we don’t know where the money's going. We don’t know if it's going to Chicago, we don’t know if it's going to downstate, we don’t know if it's going to suburban area. And many of us would agree that we need some more money for our schools that we have a good public school system, but there are 09500250.doc 27  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 deficiencies in it. But, we can't tell our constituents if their getting anymore money. We can't tell… we can't tell people in this state that they're not going to lose their job because we're going to impact small business. We can't tell people in this state that this isn't going to be any different than the lottery scam that people believe this state passed on. We can't tell anybody that they're really going to get or that they're going to get any property tax relief under this Bill, because there is no property tax relief. And I would submit to you that the single number one issue that we hear in this state time and time again from constituents is their property taxes are too high. And this Bill does absolutely nothing to address the issue of property taxes, absolutely nothing. But perhaps the most troubling part about this Amendment, Mr. Speaker, the most troubling part about this Amendment is that we're going to raise perhaps three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) and we're going to turn it over, we're going to turn over the people's money, all three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) of it, and we're going to turn it over to a party and an administration that everybody for the last 5 years has said, can't spend money wisely. That they spend money recklessly, that they spend money they don’t have, that they spend money we don’t have that in order to balance budgets we raid from the pension system, in order to balance budgets we say to nursing home providers and hospitals and pharmacists and doctors, we're not going to pay you your bills. We don’t care about your payroll, we don’t care about your tax obligations, we're 09500250.doc 28  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 just not going to pay you 'cause we can't balance our budget. And yet, what do we do? We come along almost in the… in the… in the shortest timeframe possible and say, we're going to raise three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) and we're going to turn it over to a government that has spent and borrowed so foolishly the last 5 years. What are we doing? So, here's three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000), Governor Blagojevich's administration, go do whatever you want with it, 'cause you've got a pretty good track record. Wait a minute, they don’t have a good track record. We've been listening to your side for the last year and a half run as fast as they can away from this administration. You’re the folks that enabled him. You’re the folks that created this. You’re the folks that said, we'll balance the budget by raiding the pension system, we'll balance the budget by having unpaid bills go to the tune of almost two billion dollars ($2,000,000,000). We'll borrow mor… more money. And then all of the sudden it dawned on you and a lot things… other things we're happening that, wow, that wasn’t really good, we don’t want anything to do with it. We're going to have a recall Amendment. We're going to do all we can to bash the Governor because, wow, maybe we were wrong. And now you want to come along and raise three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) a year and hand it over to the very guy and the very administration that has no business touching the peoples' money in this state. Absolutely no business whatsoever. Talk about taxes, talk about the rich, talk about jobs, talk about property taxes, they're all things 09500250.doc 29  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 that need to be said. But the bottom line here, Mr. Speaker, is he has not proven, nor has your side of the aisle proven, an ability to handle money wisely in this state. It's not our money, it's the taxpayers money. And we're going to take three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) from them and we're going to ask… they're going to expect from us that it be handled wisely and responsibly and there is no track record of that whatsoever in this state. I would hope and I'm sure and know you've all been told on the other side of the aisle, you got to vote for this. We know what this is, it's a political document. We're back to that. We're six (6) or eight (8) months away from election. We're going to do whatever it takes to run from the Governor, even though we were all with him, all helping him, all passing his legislation, but now we're going to play a different game. I understand it, but I think the people of the State of Illinois have started to understand it. This is a huge, huge mistake. It means job loss, it means no job creation. It means more reckless spending down the road without any regard for fiscal management. Mr. Speaker, I would encourage a 'no' vote. It's a shame you have not let the people of the State of Illinois have some input on this, the magnitude of this. And I think it's going to come back. It's going to bite you and it's going to bite your Party. And I would hope that everybody who cares about fiscal responsibility in this State would vote 'no'. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"The Amendment's predicated on the receiving three billions dollars ($3,000,000,000) of income, is that correct?"

"COGFA, who as a practical matter, has a much better track record, indicates that it would be a little bit under 2.5 billion (2,500,000,000). You and I have had this discussion in committee…"

"Okay." Smith: "And that's the estimate that would be… would be raised."

"The three billion dollar ($3,000,000,000) figure has been used as… as… as we've been discussing this issue. We have talked previously in committee about the fact that I believe people will change their behavior, they'll accumulate dividends rather than pay them out. The major investors and partnerships and so forth have already had plans on how to… how to manage this and not pay as much tax. What would happen if what I believe to be true that you may at best raise 1.5 billion (1,500,000,000)? What effect would that have on this overall Bill? And your goals and objectives?" Smith: "The money… The money that's raised, Representative, would be distributed to those three funds. So, if there's 09500250.doc 31  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 less money raised there would be less money in those funds and less money available for the purposes I stated."

"In the past 4 years we've increased spending about 4.5 years, 4.1 billion dollars. This year's budget is about 1.2 billion dollars ($1,200,000,000) short. You're proposing an additional three billion (3,000,000,000). That's 8.3 billion dollars ($8,300,000,000) in six (6) years that we've increased spending and we haven't addressed, as you've admitted, the problems of pensions, property tax relief, Medicaid payments. So, what you're basically saying is we have these other hills to climb and we're going to have to find a way to tax that money, too. Are we… are we not?"

"But I just want people to be aware that…"

"Well, I think the General Assembly needs to be aware that those problems are still out there, they're going to need to be addressed and they're going to cost additional money. The runaway spending in the last 6 years is… is… is beyond belief and is not good for the taxpayers of the State of Illinois. And again, I would point out a statement that Representative Cross made. If you’re a single individual and you save seventy-five dollars ($75) on your income tax return, if you're not under alternative minimum tax, that'll buy… that'll buy a gallon of gas. I don’t really think this is a good idea. Let me ask you 09500250.doc 32  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 another question. This applies to home sales, profits on home sales?"

"Does this include profit on home sales?"

"You sell your home and you get five hundred thousand dollar ($500,000) profit, does it include that? Would you pay 6 percent on that?"

"Okay. So you're pushing it to the 6 percent bracket. You're paying your realtor 7 percent and in Chicago you're paying a transfer tax of… I don’t know 6, 7 percent. We've raised it, I'm not sure what the number is, and you pay 6 percent on the profit. On a million dollar ($1,000,000) home with a five hundred thousand dollar ($500,000) profit that's about a hundred and seventy thousand dollars ($170,000) for the privilege of selling your home. I think the people in Chicago oughta be aware of that. And you're going to take average individuals who've built up an equity in their home, have the ability to sell it and they're going to end up paying this 6 percent tax on all their income, even including zero to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars ($0-$250,000). I would like the Members of the General Assembly to be aware of that's what's going to happen to their constituents and they're not going to like it. Again, this is a very significant matter. I think it should be given more public debate and I would urge a 'no' vote on this matter." 09500250.doc 33  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill. The a… earlier in the day just moments ago, Members on your side of the aisle voted to not allow public input on this most important issue. We simply ask to extend the debate to Monday afternoon at the hour of noon, so that we could have people come before this Body, ask reasonable questions, have input for or against this important issue. The Democrats in Illinois don’t want to hear from the people who will pay these taxes or those who would be affected oth… otherwise. Not unlike many issues, you don’t take this serious. This is about false promises, billions of dollars to promises that… that won't be kept. It's the Democrats in this House that have enabled this administration to take our state on a path of financial ruin and this is more of the same. Three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) trust me, trust me. Representative the Sponsor of the Bill says, well it's going to be put in this fund for education. Doesn’t talk about whether it's going to go on top or on the bottom, Representative, it's just going to go into a fund and maybe it's going to be a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000), but let's call it that, even if it's not. It doesn’t mean one extra dime for education, not one dime. Capital program, not one dime do we know where it's going to be spent? Not one of those dollars can we tell you today where it's going to be spent. But, trust me, trust me. The Democrats in the State of Illinois led by the Speaker of this House, the Governor on 09500250.doc 34  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 the second floor and Senator Jones, those three (3) are most responsible for the financial ruin of this state. It's the Democrats who say trust me. It is the Speaker of this House that has enabled this administration to b… to take us into unprecedented territory of financial ruin in the area of pensions, unfunded liability of over a hundred billion dollars ($100,000,000,000). When we get to… when you take… when you compare that to just a couple of billion dollars ($2,000,000,000) of unpaid bills, it almost makes it look frivolous to argue about the unpaid Medicaid bills for hospitals, pharmacies, doctors and nursing homes, who are facing individual financial ruin because this administration led by this Speaker and this Governor and the… and the irresponsible Senate Leadership has continued not to recognize the fact that we have to do one thing, one thing before we talk about raising taxes to unprecedented levels. That one thing is what, to say how much can we spend? That's all you talk about, how much more can we spend. We ask you to say what Jim Edgar said in 1991. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let's think about slowing down our rate of growth. Let's talk about saying no to another new program, irresponsibly conceived by a Governor who's waiting for his next press release to go out. Democrat Governor, Democrat Speaker, Democrat Leader in the Senate, you are being more than irresponsible. You have taken us so far, so far down the path that I don’t know how we're going to get out of it. What are you doing today, you're making it worse. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I yield 09500250.doc 35  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 my time to Representative Mitchell, the Gentlemen from Forsyth."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill. I compliment Representative Smith for bringing forth an idea that he feels is… is the answer to some of the issues that we're facing here in the State of Illinois. But I'm troubled by his comment when he says that this is the least painful way to deal with some of these issues. Like all of you, I remember sitting… when we were inaugurated back in January of 2006 when we heard a speech that says we need to make some tough decisions. We, in Illinois, are facing some big deficits and some challenges and we have to look for the hard choices that we as Representatives were elected to make. We should not be looking for easy answers and I think we need to do what our constituents are telling us, if we listen to them when we go home. They're not saying tax me more, they're saying solve the problems by tightening the belt as we have to do as families. They're saying make choices, set priorities, look for more efficient ways of running government as we have to look for more efficient ways to pay higher fuel costs in our family, higher food costs, and how we have to make ends meet. This Bill would give more money to an administration that has clearly demonstrated an inability to manage the budget that we gave them this year. Many of you have received the calls that I have received wondering where is the OSLAD money? Where is the soil conservation money that helps municipalities as well as rural areas conserve their air… their soil and their water and make sure that we have clean water supply? Where's the funding for the extension service from the University of Illinois in every county of 09500250.doc 39  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 this state that helps families with food planning, with balancing budgets, with some of their needs around the home and… and business? Where's the money for some of our human service agencies that have been told and I've had domestic violence shelter say that they no longer are getting their state funding because the Governor hasn’t managed money. And we're going to give him more money in this Bill? I think we ought to be demanding reforms, we ought to be demanding accountability, we ought to be making sure that this money is spent for some of the laudable purposes that the Representative has listed up. But I'm also concerned about access to healthcare, when we are not paying doctors and druggists and nursing homes and hospitals, forcing them to turn patients away, forcing them in some cases to close their door, forcing them to put the most vulnerable on the street at a time that we say we're trying to help them and we need more money to help them. I say we ought to start by looking at the way we're spending dollars today. Let's reach out to our agencies, the people on the front line and instead of just saying we're going to give you more money, let's say help us deliver services more efficiently to those people that are most in need. Let's look at how we can help our state step forward and put people on their feet, so that they can achieve the dreams and the hopes that they have rather than a dependency upon government that has proven all too often that we will fail to follow through with the dollars and the budgets that we promised back in July, excuse me, this year in January, for operating in 2008. I think we need to be accountable for 09500250.doc 40  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 the dollars that we have been given before we ask for more dollars. I think we need to be responsible to the issues that we have been elected to serve and that's to make some tough decisions. I think we need to solve some problems here before we just start looking at more money. And it's been pointed out there's no assurance that this kind of tax increase is going to generate the three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) that we're looking at. The Commission on Government Forecasting and Accountability says it's less than that. We put fees on businesses before that get even less revenue than what was estimated. There will probably be less revenue than what's jus… estimated here. So at the end of the day, we'll be adding to the deficits that we have, not solving the problems we're elected to serve and to finish and to solve here in Springfield. So I'd ask you, Ladies and Gentlemen, to do the hard thing, to do the fair thing, to solve some of these unfunded issues and look at this issue in a responsible…"

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the Sponsor would yield, I'd like to ask a couple of questions?"

"Representative Smith, in the… in this Bill that you have, it's going to direct a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) to education, correct? But it's not a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) addition to what we already have in education, just says that this billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) goes to education, right?"

"But, there's nothing in this Bill that would say we could divert the money that's in education to some other 09500250.doc 43  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 program like we might have done with the lottery money when the lottery money went to education, correct?"

"There's no guarantee that the money that's in education today we don’t divert to some place else. I mean, we're looking at this like this is going to be a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) more for education. This is a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) that goes into education, 'cause there's nothing keeping us from reappropriating the money we already have to some place else, like we did with the lottery, when we did the lottery. Is that correct?"

"That scares me."

"That's the problem, when I'm a voter and I vote on what you've got on the ballot I'm going to think I'm going to give a million… billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) more to education. And all I'm doing is increasing the spending authority of the General Assembly by three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) with really no ties on how we… how we… what percentage of the budget's going to go into education, what percentage of the budget's going to go into capital because we still have control of the money we have there today. To the Bill. You said when you got up let's give 09500250.doc 44  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 the voters good public policy to vote on and I am for that and it is a legitimate discussion to have about placing on the ballot a Constitutional Amendment that would allow for a progressive income tax. This is not a progressive income tax. This tax is a threshold income tax. You hit the threshold at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars ($250,000) and you pay 6 percent from zero; all the way up to however much you make, even if it's a million dollars ($1,000,000). That is wrong, because I tell you what, if you sell your house, if you sell your house and you’re a single person and you are a widow and your house in Chicago's a million dollars or seven hundred and fifty thousand that’s the only thing you have to live on the rest of your life. That's your retirement, you're going to pay 6 percent on it. If you sell the family farm and you're in southern Illinois, your going to pay your 6 percent, not just on the sale of the family farm, but on everything you made that year, from zero on up. A progressive income tax like Missouri has starts at zero and it… they have it graduated. And we could do better if we just ask the voters, do you want a progressive income tax? 'Cause we could actually structure the progression to give more tax relief to the working people of Illinois than what this would do. I think that… I support you in that if you would do that because that is a good question. This is bad public policy. The face of the person that's going to pay this tax is the people that may have investments to sell to continue their life in retirement. When you got the kind of baby boomers hitting retirement and the one thing that 09500250.doc 45  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 they worked hard for their whole life is… is a piece of real estate, they're going to be hit pretty hard when they go to sell it. And that's wrong. And this is just a tax increase that gives the General Assembly three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) more to… to… to a… to spend. And I tell you when Representative Bradley joined with the other side and voted against bad budgets, he voted against 95 percent of the… of Illinois because they were bad budgets and you did the right thing. The right thing to do is vote against bad public policy and put the right question on the one thing we can control is the question and the way it is. Ask the voters of the State of Illinois, do you want a progressive income tax? I'm with you on that, but not on this. This is bad public policy. I urge a 'no' vote."

"Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. To the proposed Constitutional Amendment. It's always interesting to hear someone on your side of the aisle, let the people decide, let the people decide. And yet, many of your Leaders on the Recall Amendment said how can you let the people decide such an important question? And they voted 'no'. They didn’t… they didn’t want the people to decide a recall, but they want the people to decide this. It… it's amazing how consistently inconsistent we are in this chamber. As I recall, it's your side of the aisle that demand certain things of this Governor. Was it two or three years ago you demanded and received hundreds of written memorandums of 09500250.doc 46  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 understanding from this Governor as to whether or not your projects would be funded or the money would be released and you were very satisfied with… with the written promises that you got. What happened? Most of you didn’t get that, most of you didn’t get anything. Last year you had a budget agreement. What happened? Somebody didn’t tell the truth in the Democrat Party. I… I find that very hard to believe. But, somebody didn’t tell the truth in the Democrat Party and you didn’t get the budget agreement and all of your projects get vetoed a… got vetoed out, tens of millions of dollars got vetoed out and we were here all summer. And now you want to turn around and tell me that you trust this Governor with three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000). When did you change your mind here? Just a month ago you didn’t trust him with anything and now today you're telling me, trust the Governor. We'll give him three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) and he'll be fair and it will all go to education and tax relief and capital. You know… ya… ya… you simply can't have it every way that you want it. I read the analysis and it says there's a hundred and seven thousand people (107,000) that this would impact. Now, come on, you're going to raise three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) by… by raising the tax on hundred and seven thousand (107,000) people? We don't have Bill Gates in the State of Illinois. Tell you what you are going to do, you're going to tax married couples who together make a hundred twenty-five (125), hundred and twenty-six (126) or separately, file jointly and you're going to put them over the two fifty (250); 09500250.doc 47  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 you're going to tax small farmers because of commodity prices, they're making money, some of them for the first time in 4 or 5 years. You're going to hit small farmers; you're going to hit small businesses, particularly when you have a father, a son and two (2) grandchildren in the business. When you divide up the profit of that small family business among four (4) people it isn’t going to be difficult to hit the two hundred fifty thousand dollar ($250,000) threshold. I don’t have to worry about this, folks. I don’t make two hundred and fifty thousand dollars ($250,000). My wife wishes I did, my creditors wish I did, but I don’t. And I… I don’t get any pleasure in saying that. When you work as hard as most of us have tried to work for most of our lives and we don’t make that amount of money, it's… it's nothing to brag about. I have a Constitutional Amendment that's been on a… the Calendar as a Motion to Discharge the Rules Committee, HJRCA 10, that's been on there… it's been on the discharge Calendar for 14 months. It is basically the Amendment that we passed out of this chamber in 1992 that says simply the state will be responsible for the preponderance of funding for education. And in that… in the… remarks back 10 years… 1992, it was understood that if that Amendment passed we would have to raise taxes. That's letting the people make the decision and then we would make the decision on what tax to increase. By the way, that Amendment passed in 96 of the 102 counties but failed to get a 60 percent majority of those voting on the question by less than 2 percent. You all know that this isn’t going to pass, you knew that 09500250.doc 48  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 before you went to caucus. But, it's a good Roll Call and it’s a good piece that you could demagogue. But you know what worries me about this process and it's worried me for some time. When we can’t arrive at any kind of solution, when we become so dysfunctional and so toxic that we can't get anything done, what are we resorting to today, the most base instinct of politics in our society, class warfare; us against them. Let's soak the rich. They somehow don’t pay their fair share. Let's… let's see if…"

"I'll be more then happy to. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I've seen this… I've seen us resort to this class warfare time and time and time again. It's… it's counter productive, it's destructive. Do you really think that the hundred thousand (100,000) most wealthy Illinoisans don’t have access to the best accounting and legal advice that they can buy? Do you think they're just going to sit there and pay an additional 3 percent. They're going to defer income, they'll change their legal residence. They'll… they'll change the way their business is set up. You won't raise the kind of money that you're thinking about and you know that. And you know it won't pass, but… okay… okay get your Roll Call, attack the rich, attack each other, attack philosophical differences, if you will, but at the end of the day what have we gained? Unlike the analogy one of your people used we haven't gained a yard. It's not first and ten (10), it's fourth and two (2) in the fourth quarter and this isn’t going to help. It just further divides us 09500250.doc 49  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 from the job we need to do. And hopefully, by the time this spring is over or summer or whatever we have to do, we'll stop all of this a… political war and toxicity and get about the business of doing what I've seen us do in this chamber on occasion and that is work together to find some very difficult solutions to a problem that has evolved, not just in the last two (2) or three (3) years, but has been coming for ten (10) years and needs to be addressed. This doesn’t do it, it won't do it, we know that. Let's get the vote and let's get out our press releases and then let's get about the business we need to get about."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill. I rise in opposition to this Constitutional Amendment. This Amendment would do more harm than good to the people of the State of Illinois, to our citizens and to the many who are in the small businesses of Illinois. I cannot think of a reason why anybody would support this type of runaway spending. The Majority Party has over these past several years engaged in that runaway spending in waste and not having an accountability on hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer funds. You have spent us into a fiscal crisis. You have gone ahead and worked on the outflow of people from this State and small business and you are doing it again with this legislation. This three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) has no standards in it as to how it will be spent and that if it were passed in the November election, 60 members then could take that three billion 09500250.doc 50  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 ($3,000,000,000) and decide among yourselves over there exactly how you would spend it, because there is no accountability, no standards. And we wonder why the people of Illinois have no trust? Here is the exact example why there is no trust. This country is in a recession and there are over 25 states that are proceeding to look at their spending to see where they can cut it and where they can make reductions and that must be done. But not in Illinois, Illinois will not do that. But let me put out another approach that should be done and that is in fact rather than always do what that side of the aisle does with tax and spend and that is to immediately to begin working on the spending of the state to examine it, to see where reduction can be made, to see where there is waste and there certainly is and to take that approach. Because that side of the aisle will not at all address the issue of the arrearages that the state has, its inability to pay its bills. It is behind in Medicaid payment, pension payments and that is what should be addressed by this General Assembly at this time. Then as it's pointed out at the same time, we should be working, this Body, all of the Legislators, on an infrastructure Bill. It ought to be a reasoned Bill. We ought to look at the revenue source, identify the projects, put in the standards, put in the ethics that are necessary and then move forward on the school and construction needs that are necessary for the state. When the question was asked about voting for this Bill… what this Bill will give is in excess of three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) to be spent as people 09500250.doc 51  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 want, to add on to the runaway spending that has occurred by the Majority Party in this State. This Amendment is hostile to the middle class, to the people of the State and the small businesses. There is a better way to handle the challenges of Illinois. They clearly are not addressed by this Amendment. It should be resoundingly defeated. I urge a 'no' vote."

"Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Representative Smith, I… I…"

"I guess you would agree that there are a number of ways people in this state can pass that quarter million dollar ($250,000) threshold. One is by being successful in your career, the other one is through the all-American way, you can inherit it and thirdly, there are a number of people who do reach that threshold because they've been awarded damages in a court room, basically on some type of personal injury lawsuit. Now, are people who receive these types of damages, whether they're injured in a… in a workplace incident, if we're going to pass the Structural Work Act and they're going to be able to get more damages, will those damages be subject to the taxable income in Illinois?"

"All right. And why isn’t it not taxable income? Is it by statute, is it state that that is precluded?" 09500250.doc 55  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"Well, let me tell you about what the Federal Law also… they do preclude personal injury awards, but what they also… but what they also mention is that there are other types of damages which are taxable income. One of them is a… damages under the Civil Rights Discrimination Act of 1964 and 1991, the Family and Medical Leave Act, the American with Disabilities Act and the Age Discrimination in Employment Act. But let me give you a couple of examples. In 1998 the Ford Motor Company in a… in Chicago Heights, reached a settlement with 11 women to the tune of approximately 7.5 million dollars ($7,500,000) for repeated sexual harassment on the job. If you do the math on it, it's approximately a hundred and ninety thousand dollars ($190,000) each. And if each of them, I would assume, have other means of employment or being paid through Ford, they're going to reach that two hundred and fifty thousand (250,000) threshold quite quickly. Do we think that they should be paying their fair share based on this Amendment, because that is taxable income? Also, the year after that, let me ask… I'll… I'll give you another example. Again at the Ford Heights plant in South Chicago or Chicago Heights 14 women were awarded a settlement under the Civil Rights Act collectively with 7.5 million (7,500,000), and if you do the math it comes out to approximately five hundred and thirty-five thousand dollars ($535,000) to each one of these women. That's taxable income. They would be subject to this tax and they would be the highest of the high- 09500250.doc 56  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 income people in the State of Illinois. Also, I'm just going to run through…"

"No it's a statement."

"Well, I… Well, I'm telling you that is taxable income and do you agree or disagree it's…"

"Well, that's only assuming if they spend all that money in that taxable year, but what if they don’t and they still have money left the following year that is over the two hundred fifty thousand dollar ($250,000) threshold?"

"All right. Okay. All right, let me give you some other examples. Just a few years ago there was a horrible case which prompted us to change many laws in the State of Illinois and it came out of Cook County. It was called the Ford Heights Four. There were four (4) individuals: Kenneth Adams, Dennis Williams, Willie Rainge and Verneal Jimerson. A number of them spent years on death row rotting away because of wrongful convictions. They received a thirty-six million dollar ($36,000,000) settlement from the a City of Chicago and Cook County under the Civil Rights Act. That's approximately nine million dollars ($9,000,000) each. They would now be part of the highest of the high income winners. Do you think that they should be paying their fair share based on what the State 09500250.doc 57  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 of Illinois and the City of Chicago and County of Cook did to them?"

"Okay. I just want to make it perfectly clear that when a unit of government has wrongfully convicted somebody, let them sit in a jail cell and we say we are going to award you damages for the horror which has been committed to your life, but we're going to tax you at higher rate. Thank you very much. Now, just this past year it hasn’t been… I don’t believe its been finalized, but there are number of individuals who are part of this class action lawsuit in the City of Chicago on the John Burge police torture. Let me give you a couple a…"

"…19.8 million dollar ($19,800,000) settlement which has not been finalized, but that’s the numbers that are out there; 5.5 million dollars ($5,500,000) to Leroy Orange who sat on death row, 7.5 million dollars ($7,500,000) to 09500250.doc 58  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 Madison Hobley who sat on death row for a number of years. Those again are the people that we're saying should pay the fair share because they've had that one-time increase in their income in excess of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars ($250,000). Do you think that… I don’t think that's fair. And let me just let… one last thing. Under the IRS Code, alimony payments are taxable income. So, if you think that the… this is a good Bill, that these people should be included in on this a… this category of the highest of high-income individuals in the State of Illinois, vote 'yes'; if you think that's not fair vote 'no'."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It'd be hard to top the last speaker. But I just point out a few things on what this Bill does; creates a new tax on retirees who might sell their homes; creates a tax and a state tax on farmers and small business people; even creates a marriage tax penalty 09500250.doc 59  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 in Illinois. Well, what doesn’t it do? What it doesn’t do is provide property tax relief; doesn’t help with the pension crisis; not Medicaid; but the Sponsor says it will bring balance, balance. Balance, what about fairness? There's no fundamental shift in the Property Tax Code here. No fundamental shift. There's no property tax relief. Sponsor says that schools will get more money in response to Leader Cross's question. Well, I would submit that my schools are still waiting to get more money from the lottery. The… Sponsor says it'll go through the normal budget channels. The normal budget channels have done a heck of a good job over the last few years, as we all know. And for what? So we can give the Governor another three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) to spend. Everywhere I go people talk about property tax relief, they talk about what happened to the money from the lottery, everything else. This Bill settles none of those questions, it just hands the Governor a pile of money to go spend. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"In your opening comments, Representative, you discussed what some of the other states did and talked about the fact that there are 33 other states with some form of a graduated income tax. Is that correct?"

"Now, would you consider this proposed Constitutional Amendment a graduated tax?"

"But… But, isn't it the case that in those other states that have graduated tax, and I include the Federal Government which also has a graduate tax, they work for marginal rates so that the tax only picks up to the higher rate beyond a certain dollar level. Isn’t that correct?"

"Also, isn’t it the case that in those states that have some form of graduated tax, it's customary that one does not weld a dollar amount of the threshold into the Constitution. What the Constitution would say, our Federal Constitution being certainly a good example, it is… it charges the Legislative Body with being able to set those 09500250.doc 62  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 rates and that's all it does. It's permissive; allows the Legislative Body to do that. Isn't that the case?"

"But, what…"

"…what it does is… But it goes a step further. It actually puts a specific dollar value which is not customary in how we treat the constitutions of any of the states and I would claim the way we should treat the Constitution here in the State of Illinois. Mr. Speaker, to the Bill. There's a number of problems with this Bill. Many of my colleagues on this side of the aisle have pointed out the problems that happens when you do not have a marginal tax system, that suddenly two people can get married and have their dual income cause them to jump precipitously from 3 percent up to 6 percent or a small business suddenly sell an asset one year and suddenly, not just that asset be taxed extra but suddenly all their income gets taxed extra that one year. Also, I would contend there's a fundamental piece of unfairness to the small business in this Bill. As this Constitutional Amendment is drafted, a small business, and there are certainly small businesses that make a net income of over two hundred and fifty thousand dollars ($250,000) a year, they would be taxed at 6 percent. Yet a large business, one that didn’t qualify to organize as a small business that could make many, many times that amount, would only be taxed at 4.8 percent. What sense does it make to have the 09500250.doc 63  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 big businesses taxed at a lower rate than our small businesses? I don’t see the sense in that. And it seems to me that this is not well formed as to how you would approach the taxation of business here in the State of Illinois. A couple of the previous speakers on the other side of the aisle have said we should give the people the chance to vote on the Amendment. I certainly think that it's important when you have a debate like this, the idea of changing our tax policy, that having the public input is a good thing. But I also contend that we, as a Legislature, have a duty and obligation to the people of Illinois to send them a well-formed question. So before we ask them to vote we should have a question that makes sense, one that would be consistent with the way progressive taxes that have a graduated system are run in the Federal Government and in the other states. Before we ask their input, let's get the right question. This is not that question. I would urge a 'no' vote."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Representative, you voted against the gross receipts tax, is that correct?"

"What was your rationale for voting against the gross receipts tax?"

"Would you… Would you agree with me that… we would both agree that that… gross receipts tax, which would've taxed items twenty-six (26) times before they reached consumers, that would've been really passing the tax along to our constituents, is that correct?"

"You wouldn’t agree with me, though, that if you taxed small businesses in Illinois that they're not going to pass that along to their consumers?"

"Representative, that's where you and I disagree and… and to the Bill. Ladies and Gentlemen, when is the State of Illinois going to be… stop being a cheerleader for the Indiana Chamber of Commerce? Every time this state talks about a tax increase businesses want to move. I've had businesses in my communities tell me they will not expand, they're not going to increase their workforce. Why are we not reinvesting in our state? Why aren't we looking at tax cuts, not tax increases? Why do we punish families? Why do we continue to punish the business community in this state? Some of my other colleagues on the other side spoke about the fact that if I don’t vote for this I'm against a 09500250.doc 65  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 capital Bill. That's not true. I've been waiting for a capital Bill to come out of this chamber. Leader Cross filed a capital Bill last year. Obviously, I'm not against education, I teach at junior college and I have a six-year- old in kindergarten and I'm concerned that he has all the tools that he needs to be successful in this state. I'm not sure how many more tax increases that can come from the other side, but it's time that we stop. It is time that the State of Illinois begins to live within its means stop trying to raise revenue, pay its bills on time, try to make sure that medical professionals stay in our state and are not chased away from our state. And I urge a 'no' vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."

"Mr. Speaker, I have an inquiry of the Chair."

"The previous speaker said that you could reduce your tax impact by donating to charity. I think… I doubt the efficacy of that statement. I don’t think we should say anything on this floor that isn’t as accurate as we can make it. I'm not accusing him of anything, but my 09500250.doc 68  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 understanding of the Illinois Tax Code and of this proposed Amendment, you can donate two hundred and fifty thousand dollars ($250,000) to charity, it is not going to impact your tax hit. We don’t allow that in Illinois. We don’t couple with the federal income tax. So you could give all two hundred and fifty thousand ($250,000) to charity. And in all due respect to my friend and colleague who made that statement, it does not reduce your taxable income in the State of Illinois. So let's… let's make sure that we understand what we're talking about and not lead people out there in the State of Illinois to think, well, all I have to do is increase my charitable deduction and this 6 percent won't impact me, au contraire. You will pay the 6 percent no matter how much you give to charity, if you hit the two hundred and fifty thousand dollar ($250,000) threshold."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Oh, skeptical me. I must say this is really interesting, the veiled references to rich and poor, the veiled references to who you are, whether you're Republican or Democrat. I mean I think there are a whole lot of people of all Parties and a lot of Independents that are… fall into those categories. And so those veiled references, so it could be in mail piece, really intrigue me. But the misstatements that have been 09500250.doc 71  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 made in this Bill are really great. First of all, I'd like Representative Smith in closing to explain to us what a normal budget year is. I don’t think we've seen one for awhile. It would be a refreshing thing to have a normal budget year. I'm sure there are Members of this Body who have been elected only under this current administration and have never seen a normal budget year. The combined federal and state corporation tax is 39.7 and one of the speakers on the other side said this does not impact business. Well, yes, it does because there are hundred and forty-five thousand (145,000) subchapter 's' corporations that have from 2 to 100 partners that pay personal income tax. Then you have the majority of small business owners that make up the community… the biggest, largest community of business owners in this State that also pay under personal income taxes. And when you're talking about whether it helps the poor or not, when you leave small business in the dust, which you're going to do, you leave the jobs. That certainly doesn’t help the poor. Quite frankly, some of the things that have been mentioned here are really, really interesting. But what really got me towards the end was the noblesse oblige. I wonder if that’s what Henry the VIII used when he cut off his wife's head instead of paying alimony? Oh, well, then they didn’t have to pay taxes on it. So, maybe we should go there. And women business owners certainly will be hurt by this. So, this certainly is antiwomen. It's antipoor for the simple reason that you're killing small business. It might be antirich, but let's hope we have a few rich people in 09500250.doc 72  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 this state that are left or a few business owners. And I don’t know what you classify as rich or poor, but I think it's under all different statuses of who people are. Whether you're farm owner that votes Republican or Democrat, whether you’re a business owner or a trial lawyer that votes Republican or Democrat, whether you’re an Independent that goes back and forth, this impacts you. If this was that important why did we come up with it and talk about it for one week? This is something that should've been examined fully for a longer time. The bottom line here is, oh, skeptical me, once again. This is a campaign issue that's going to be used in campaign pieces rather as a solution to state problems. It usually happens that when we want to cover up the fact that we can't solve problems and we can't talk about it in debate, we can't figure out where the budget's going, we bring up abortion, guns and gay rights. This year we're bringing up a graduated income tax and a Recall Motion. Let's add those to the two of the things we talk about to divert the public from the fact that the General Assembly isn't doing job, the Democratic Leaders are fighting among themselves and we're not going to have another normal budget year and we're all going to have problems with this. So what difference does it make? Let's get on with this vote. It's really a poor issue when you don’t allow the people to have honest discussion. It's really a poor issue when we can't get revenue to look at tax deductions for honest things like medical devices for children. It really is a bad issue to come up with this for one week to discuss it and let the money just be sent 09500250.doc 73  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 out there with no way of controlling it. I think this is really interesting how we're diverting the public's attention one more time from the fact that this Body is not attending to the business that we were sent here to do."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Sponsor yield?"

"Representative, Smith I… I just have some questions related to the… to the intent and I… I… you know, the fact of the matter is, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, if there was any… if there was any chance in the world that this was going to pass it would've never been called. But… But I… I do… I do want to make sure that if by some strange chance something like this ever advances, that we get some ideas of some of your intent because, Representative, I… I see the billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) for education spending here. Is there any guarantee that any of the education money would be spent to reduce class size?"

"Yes or no? Mike… Mike, look, is there… it's a simple question. Is there a guarantee, in the way this is drafted, that the money will be spent to reduce class sizes? I mean, there's not any guarantee, that's all I want to know. Is there any guarantee?"

"Sure." 09500250.doc 75  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"That… That was not my…"

"I understand that, too. But that was not my implication. I… I'm sure you’re… you're very serious about this. My statement had to do with the control in this House of a matter like this that would've been much a… longer debated and… and in many cases a lot of the flaws that have been brought out that I think everybody has concerns about regarding this, they would've been taken care of if this were serious. If this were an issue we… we… I don’t… I don’t doubt your seriousness. I doubt the fact that the way this has happened we're really dealing with this in a manner that either you or I would like to see these things dealt with when it comes to education. I… It's not… Representative, don’t take it that way."

"Well, Representative, and I… and I understand that and I will… I will… I want you to understand that was not a disparaging comment regarding you. I… I know your passion 09500250.doc 76  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 and I know on education issues. But my point is, there is nothing in this that takes care of reduction of class size, nothing that guarantees induction and mentoring in this Bill, nothing that guarantees after school programs that you and I both know are tremendously important to… to some of the accountability reforms that we've talked about. We have worked on numerous Bills and discussed specific language to try and ensure and guarantee that some of the things everybody knows are in important to education accountability are taken care of specifically. We've worked on those. There's nothing in this that guarantees any of that is going to be addressed and that's my concern, not your sincerity. The fact that the way it is structured, those types of things aren't… aren’t handled. And…"

"Well…"

"I think if we're going to be responsible… if we're going to be responsible with a billion dollars ($1,000,000,00) in education, we're not just going to hope, we're just not going to wait for that process, we're going to make sure some of that money goes where we know it's going to do good. And… and that… That's the problem. There's nothing here that guarantees that. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, to the Amendment. I want to work on education 09500250.doc 77  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 reform and funding and I think there are some possibilities to get that done. But to… to say that a vote against this is… is a vote against education is just plain silly. This… ya… people that support education have supported education all our lives are going to vote against this. Not because we're voting against education, we want education to be done right. We're voting against this because this is not the right way to do it. And we need to take the proper time to do it right. And we need to make sure that if we're going to put more money into education that that money is spent wisely. This simply does not do that. This doesn’t stand a snowball's chance, it never stood a chance when we came out here. This is done for one purpose and one purpose only and that's for a Roll Call vote. Let's get real, that's what we're doing here. This is not about public policy and whether or not we should have two tiers of income tax. This is too flawed to take a serious vote on. Let's work harder, let's come up with something better. Vote 'no' and let’s get to work on something real."

"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the Representative yield for a question?"

"Very good. Representative, it's been stated over and over today that we're giving the people the ability to vote on your Amendment… your issue, correct?"

"And if this passes out and is signed then it would go to the ballot in November, correct?"

"How many people will be voting to tax themselves?"

"Correct. Because that's what the question is, to raise a tax. Correct? To give the people the ability to vote to raise a tax. Is that correct?"

"So, one hundred and seven thousand (107,000) people, right, are… would be voting to tax themselves? That was a question."

"Okay. How many of them do you think will vote to tax themselves?"

"Okay. How many people will be voting to tax other people?"

"Absolutely, there'll be a lot more."

"So, they're going to vote to tax other people and then get a tax relief package. How many dollars does a person get in that tax relief package?" 09500250.doc 79  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"Okay. But per person, how much is their tax credit going to be?"

"Seventy-five dollars ($75)…"

"Seventy-five dollars ($75) per person per year. Okay, that's great. So you… you think that the three, four, five million (3, 4, 5,000,000) people who will be voting to tax others and get that seventy-five dollar ($75) credit will overwhelmingly vote for your Resolution?"

"Yes."

"Okay. Do you think that's fair to pit… four or five million (4,000,000 or 5,000,000) people against a hundred and seven thousand (107,000)?"

"That's not what I asked. I asked you a question. Do you think it's fair…"

"Okay. I… I would propose that it would be fair to ask all the voters the choice to tax ever… all the people… I'm sorry let me rephrase. I would say it would be fair that if you put the question on to tax everybody, then everybody would have the right to vote to tax themselves. But what you're asking is for four to five million (4 or 5,000,000) people to vote to tax a hundred and seven thousand (107,000). Correct?"

"So I don’t see that as fair. Do you?"

"To a… To… throw the balance out of the question?"

"To tax a hundred and seven thousand (107,000) people?"

"Correct. So… I… okay, well, basically, it’s a hundred seven thousand people (107,000) versus 4 or 5 million (4 or 5,000,000). I don’t see that as a fair, valid question. Let me ask you this question. You say in your statement this is going to raise three billion dollars ($3,000,000,000) and one billion ($1,000,000,000) of those dollars will go to education. Correct?"

"And it specifies in your legislation that that one billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) would go dir… for education, the Governor cannot change that." 09500250.doc 81  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008

"Okay, so it… we're not guaranteed that’s a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000)?"

"That's the estimate. Okay. Whatever the money that comes in that's going to be guaranteed for education, is there anywhere in your legislation that guarantees that that's on top of what we spend on education or will it be replacing money that we spend on education?"

"So as stated earlier, then there could be another shell game as they did with the lottery money. Could that possibly happen?"

"Well, my question was do you think that…"

"…is possible that it could happen?"

"Has it… Let's say, let's look at history."

"Well, that was only six hundred million dollars ($600,000,000)."

"That…"

"I wi… I will do that, Mr. Speaker. To the Bill. I… What I'm afraid of, Ladies and Gentlemen, well, one… we're misrepresenting about who's going to vote about which tax here. I think if we're going to ask the question to the people we should ask everyone to vote on a tax to… on everyone. And then secondly, the concern is with the shell game that we play with six hundred million dollars ($600,000,000) in the lottery, they said this was going to be in addition to what we spend in a… on education, but we wound up, it was only six hundred thousand (600,000) to cover that, six hundred thousand (600,000) we took out of the General Revenue. So, it's quite possible that if we do reach a million dollars ($1,000,000) for education that it's just going to be a cover-up, a shell game and we won't realize an extra million dollars ($1,000,000) or… I'm sorry, billion dollars ($1,000,000,000) in spending on education. Thank you."

"I did and my name was used in debate and I'd like to just make a couple of comments, Mr. Speaker, in response to that. In fact, I think it was used a couple times. I'm intrigued by the comments about capital and that this will solve our capital Bill. I… I really hope that those of you that are going to vote for this don’t for one minute believe this is a capital Bill and you can say I voted for 09500250.doc 83  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 capital, so it's all over. Don’t worry, I don’t… I don’t have to worry about it anymore and those of you that didn’t, you're real bad people because you didn’t support capital. This isn’t a capital Bill. In the best case scenario… in the best case scenario, if this passed the House, passed the Senate, passed or got the voters' approval, we would have money,… best case scenario, sometime next year. But in reality we wouldn’t be doing a capital Bill for a couple years. That's the first point. You know this isn’t serious. The second problem is, what did we all say when the Senate sent that capital Bill over? You can't do a capital Bill without everybody sitting down at a table and working out the revenue stream and working out how it's going to be spent. So, for any of us to actually believe that you're serious about capital through this approach, we don’t buy that. And the people that need and care about a capital Bill aren't going to buy it either. They know what's going on. They know that you're not serious. And Representative, don’t aim… none of this is aimed at you personally, as Representative Eddy said, but we know what we're doing here. And we all know the serious nature of the need for a capital Bill. And to play games with this one more time to say, oh, we've passed capital so it's all over, we don’t have to worry about it, if we don’t have capital then it's not our fault is a… the wrong way to treat people of the state. And we all know why we need a capital Bill. The only way we get it done is if we go downstairs in the Governor's Office with four (4) Leaders and the Governor and maybe we don’t like everybody 09500250.doc 84  STATE OF ILLINOIS 95th GENERAL ASSEMBLY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSCRIPTION DEBATE 250th Legislative Day 4/10/2008 in that room and that's fine. But we have to get this worked out and we need to do it sooner than later and this isn’t the way to do it. The kind of ironic part about all this is I'm about to, with the other Leaders, go downstairs and meet with Speaker Hastert and Congressman Poshard and talk about capital. That's the only way we're going to get it done. You can't send one over there and let them send one over here and it ain't going to happen and you know that. You don’t even have a breakdown of how it's going to be spent. You don’t know if it's for roads, we don’t know if it's for mass transit, we don’t know if it's for higher ed, school construction. So let's cut the nonsense, let's get everybody together in a room, which we're going to do in a few minutes and get this done. So, I… I would hope the games would cease in calling this the solution to a capital Bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."