Illinois Senate Floor Debate — April 26, 1989

Reverend Martin, welcome to Springfieldz sir. Senator Davidson, for what purpose do you arise?

Mr. President, is the time certain on that caucus or are We just...

Yesr Senator Philip...senator Philip and have agreed one-thirty; we'll try to get back here by one-thirty.

Thank you.

A11 righty wefll stand in Recess till one-thirty. RECESS AFTER RECESS

The Senate Will please come to order. Reading of the Journalz Madam Secretary.

Senate Journal of Wednesday, March Thursday, March 27 Tuesday, March 14; Wednesday, March 15; Wednesday, April 57 Thursday, Aprll 6) Friday, April 72 Tuesday, April l1; Wednesday, April l2; Thursday, April

Senatoreeesenator Vadalabene.

Yes, thank you, Mr...and Members of the Senate. move that 2  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 the Journals just read by the Secretary be approved unless some Senator has additions or corrections to offer.

All right, you have heard the motion as placed by Senator Vadalabene. Discussion? Senator Schaffer. I am sorryz Senator Philip.

Thank you, Mr. President. How many votes does that take? And then I move it be deferred and move that we go to motions in writing and ask for a roll call.

Well, the...the approval of the Journal, as the Chair has indicated before, woulde..will require thirty votes of this Body for approval. A1l right, the question is Senator Vadalabene 's motion to approve the Journals just read by the Secretary. Those in favor of approval Will vote Aye. Opposed will vote Nay. The voting is open. Have all voted who wish? Have a11 voted Who wish? Have all voted Who wish? Have al1 vated who wish? Take the record. On that question, there are 28 Ayes: 28 Nays, and the motion fails. Committee reports, Madam Secretary.

Senator O'Daniel, Chairman of the Special Temporary Committee on Agriculture and Conservation, reports Senate Bills Numbered 63g 142, 370, 6ll and 647 Do Pass. Senator Newhouse, Chairman of the Special Temporary Committee on Commereê and Rconomic Dgvelopmene, repor*s SenaEe Bills Numbered 768, 870, 937, 963, 1059, 1060, 1095 and 1156 Do Pass. And Senate Bill 1093 Do Pass as Amended. Senator Smith, Chairman of the...special Temporary Committee on Public Health, Welfare and Corrections, reports Senate Bills Numbered 166, 272, 489 and 688 Do Pass. And Senate Bills Numbered 20, 48 and 354 Do Pass as Amended .  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslative Day April 26, 1989 Senator Netsch, Chairman of the Special Temporary Committee on Revenue, reports Senate Bills Numbered 5l, 160, 525: 526, 593, 634 and 740 Do Pass. Senator J . J. Joyce, Chairman of the Speckal Temporary Committee on Executive, reports Senate Bills Numbered 751, 1088 and 1316 Do Pass. Senator O'Daniel, Chairman of the Special Tempcrary Commlttee on Agriculture and Conservation, reports Senate Bills Numbered 228, 231, 249, 250, 1069 and 1081 Do Pass. And Senate Bil1s... Senate Bill Numbered 650 Do Pass as Amended. Senator E. Joyce: Chairman of the Special Temporary Committee on Higher Education, reports Senate Bill...senate Bills Numbered 25, 39, 113, 628, 697 and 1165 Do Pass. And Senate 3ill 629 Do Pass as Amended. Senator Carroll, Chairman of the Special Temporary Committee on Appropriations 1, reports Senate Bills Numbered l63 and 1166 Do Pass. Senator Marovitz, Chairman of the Special Temporary Committee on Judiciary, reports Senate Bills Numbered 46, 505, 506, 507, 508: 665, 667, 668, 670: 886, 1061, 1102, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1214 and 1219 Do Pass. And Senate Bills Numbered 134, 924, 1100, 1101, 1103, 1210:...1212 and 1213 Do Pass as Amended. PRESIDENT Senator Phlllp.

Thank you, Mr. President. I would move that these reports 1ie on the Secretary's Desk and I ask for a roll call.

A11 right, Senator Philip has moved that the committee reports which called for the bill...ordinarily under Rule 8 which called 4  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GEKERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslative Day April 26, 1989 the bills...to be placed on the Order of 2nd Reading, instead be placed on the Order of Secretary's Desk and...senator Marovitz.

Thank you very much, Mr. President. I would request a division of the question pertaining to each bill.

Thato..that request is in order. Senator Geo-Karis.

I move to 1ay that motion on the Table.

Well...senator Berman.

Point of order, Mr. President.

State your point.

Under Robert's Rules, a request for division is not debatable, it is not tableable. It is a right that belongs to any member of the Body.

think that is correct. Senator Philip .

Mr. President, we are operatinq under Senate Rules and Senate Rules are very clear. I move my motion once again and ask for a roll call.

Well, Senator Philip, I just turn your attention to Rule 39. It says: ''If the question in debate contains several pointsvl' Which this obviously does, ''any fenator may have the same divfdedvl' mean, thknk that's just kind of a right that we have respected lo these many years. Senator Marovitz, is...I'm sorry, Senator Philip ...senator Philip. 5  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989

.p. thank you, Mr. President. My motion is in order and I Will persist with my motion and ask for a roll call.

Well,...there is no question your motion is in order. That's What's before us. The question now is, however, theoo.the right of a member of the Senate to ask that motion and the questions it presents be divided, and the fact is that under Rule 39 it appears to be pretty clear. Senator Philip.

...Ru1e 37, Mr. President, is very clear . A motion to Table is in order and I am asking for a roll call .

Senator Geo-Karisz for what purpose do you arise?

I'd like to have a vote on my motion to 1ay on the Table. It...It's not debatable ando..should take a motion. .. a vote on it. And I move to Table Mr. Marovitz' motion.

Senator....all right, Senator Leehowlcz.

Mr. President, I believe you ruled accordinq to the Senate Rules and according to all previous. . .background in reference to the question of division. If the gentleman does not. . odesire your type of ruling or...he wants to appeal the ruling that's his prerogakive; bu* you are absotulely corrects as far as on this question, it is divisible.

Senator Schaffer.

Mr. President, I don't think anybody questions that a member has a right to.o.to request a division. The roll call Wefre 6  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 persisting in is Senator Geo-Karis' motion to Table that motion, and we believe we have the right for a roll call on that motion and thateo.under Rule 37, that is what we are interested

Yeaoa.that's what We are checking heremo.it...ue.. . this has not happened before, we have always honored a...a request for division. But I think you're...frankly, I think you are right . All right, ladies and gentlemen, I can have your attention. This is, as you recall, this came up a Week or ten days or so ago, and we...We did not effect a resolution because the motion.. . the request was withdrawn. Under Rule 'lA1l Senate bills favorably reported from committee,''which is the subject matter we are currently dealing withy ''shall stand on the Order of 2nd Reading unless otherwise ordered by the Senate.'' Senator Phillp has moved, and properly moved, that those bills lie on the Secretary's Desk as opposed to standing on the Order of 2nd Reading, as I understand your motion. Is that...that's correct, okay. Under Rule 39, it says, seems to mey that the question in debate contains several points, any Senator may have the same divided. I read that to vest in each of us a right to request, not to avoid the roll call you seek but to have multiple roll calls because there are multiple subjects, and I do not think that right of an individual member is subject to being laid an the Table. think it is a right that eaeh of us possess and it is a request that this Chair will...has in the past, and will certainly continue to honor. senaEor Geo-Karis.

Mr. President, under Rule 37, ''A motion to lay any particular propositlon on the Table shall apply Eo Ehat proposiEion only- f' The proposition that was given by Senator Marovitz was to divide the question; that's the proposition to which I address my motion. My motion is not debatable, and I submit that under the rules of  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 fair play that motion should be taken now.

Well, and I...and 1...1 recognize that and did...also refer to Rule 37. I...my...my...When...When you have tWo that appear to be in conflict, my...my rule has always been to come down in favor of the member who is makin: the request...who has the right to make the request. So, I Will rule your motion to Table out of order and aSk Senator Marovitz to proceed With his request to divide and indicate how he Wishes this question divided so that we can honor Senator Philip's roll call request. Yes, Senator Philip.

would remind you that on January 11th we adopted the temporary rules. I have them in front of ne. Rule 35, Motion to adjourn or to 1ay on the Table shall be decided within debate and not debatable. And...and we have been debating it.

...we have been séarching for an answer, I guess is it.

And I certainly...because youdre going to look far and wide...to find an answer.

No, I didn't...l have already ruled. 1...1 Will acknowledge the fact that that motion is not debatable: al1 right? And I have ruled that that motion is out of order. Now Welre back to the request of a member, under Rule 39, to divide the question so that we can get to the main roll calls or call. Genator Geo-Karis.

.w o president, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate, how could you rule my motion out of order When ycu've been doing it time and again for many years? A motion to...to 1ay on the Table is a nondebatable motion...takes precedence...a main motion and it's on one particular subject and the subject Was to divide the question. 8  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 1...1 submit, Mr. President, you are stretchinq the interpretation of Rule 39, and I dondt mean to do that to you but, really, you know what Rule 37 means and what it is.

1...1 do and I...and I alsc recognize the fact thate . . that technically the request to divide is not a motion, it is a member's request, a right that every member in this Body has under Rule 39. It is not an attempt to avoid a roll call on the main question. is saying that where the main question contains points Az B, C and Dy We would like to have a roll call on A, Bz and D or whatever the request is. 1 am not even sure what the request is except to divide. Senator Philip.

Mr. President, .. . respectfully disagree with you. We adopted the temporary rules on the eleventh, we are operatinq under those. We are not operating under the Robert's Rules of Orderz we're running on these rules, and I would respectfully appeal the ruling of the Chair. And.. .and everybody ought to thknk about Rule 45... you know, When the majority of the members would like to vote on a motion or a rule change, they ought to have that opportunity. And we dre asking for that oppartunity. it's not debatable, so I am...forced into over.o . asking a vote on overriding the President.

That...that request is in order. Is there any discussion? Senator Philip has appealed the ruling of the Chair; that ruling being ruling out of order the motion to Table a member's requesk to divide. Discussion on.n senator Netsch.

Thank you, Mr. President. Senator Geo-Karis,... khat we are trykng to explain is that this is not part of any games playing that's going on around here. This is an effort to resolve a 9  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLX REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26z 1989 leqktkmate parliamentary question, and in our rules there are two rules either one of which could seem to apply. The one having Eo do with the motion to Table doesn't say when you can move to Table, it just says that when that motion is made it comes up right away and...it's to get voted on right away. That's fine, no one ks quarrelkng With that. The other question has to do with...the right to a division. And our rules also say that any member has a right to a division. If you look back at any of the other legislative manuals...and I'm lookingo..for example, I happen to have Mason's Legislative Manual in my desk; again, it makes the point that any member has a right to request a dkvision on any question that has several parts. There you are not taking about a motion; What you are talking about, really, is just how you count the votes. And when a request for a division is made, that member is saying, ''I want the votes counted separately on the separate parts of that questlon.'' That really is that a1l this is about. happen to believe, and I argued this a couple of weeks ago when this came up, that it is not appropriate to Table a member's request for a division of the question, again, which deals only with hoW you go about counting the votes on what parts of the issue. So, 1...1 reallyo..genuinely believe as a parliamentary matter that the ruling is absolutely correct and is not in any way going to forestall a roll call vote on the...each of these committee reports as they come along . It is just a question of how you divide the question and how you take the vote.

Senator Geo-Karis.

Mr. President, in response ko the SenaEor, there is no case that you can show me that a motion to lay on the Table does not get...take precedence over a request which we...ca1l it a request 10  STATE 0F ILLINOIS ! 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 1 17th Legislative Day . April 26, 1989 it is still a motion to divide, and there is no case you can show me, you can quote me Mason's Rules or whoever else's you want to. You know khat and I know 1t. Motion to 1ay on *he Table Eakes precedence, a main motion, itls not debatable and should be heard. Not With...it should be heard immediately. If you want me to amend and say heard now. PRESIDENT: A1l right, the question is, shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. Those in favor of sustaining *he ruling will vote Aye. Those opposed will vote Nay. The voting is open. Have a1l voted Who wish? Have all voted Who wish? Have a11 voted Who wish? Take the record. 0n that question, there are 28 Ays and 30 Nays. The motion having failed to receive the necessary three-fifths negative vote, the appeal fails and the ruling of the Chair is sustained. Senator Marovitz...Marovitz, please. SENATOR MAROVITZ: Thank you very much, Mr. President. My request is that...on the list of bills stemming...being reported out from the Judiciary Committee that we begin with Senate Bill 134 and qo through the bills one by one in numerical order, I think that seems to be the fairest, most equitable way to do it, and determine on each bill whether that bill should, in faet, 1ie on the Secretary's Desk or be on...placed on 2nd reading. PRESIDENT : All right. No, it's a request to have the separate roll call on Senator philip's motion on each of those. Senakor Davidson. SENATOR DAVIDSON: Point of order. PRESIDENT : Yes, sir. SENATOR DAVIDSON: In the motion before the House <sic>w..reports from the 11 1  STATE OF ILLINOIS I 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY l REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 committee and it's only one motionr doesn't have a motion on every one of those bills as he just read off and, therefore, the motion before us if you're goinq to have a vote on...if you divide the question, We divide the question only on the motion..oor the report of the committee and therefore we have only the motions before us dividing the House Ksic>...the report of each committee, is that not correct?

Well, I...I...the only thing I can sayy Senator Davidson, isoo.is that, yes, Senator Marovitz has requested that the...the committee report on the Judiciary Committee be dealt with separately and has further requested that the...those items on that report be dealt With separately and in numerical order or Sequence.

But it is not the report that is from the Judiciaryo..committee all inclusive that has all these bill numbers that are reported favorable, it's not a separate motion report...or not a separate report from the committee on each individual bill, is that not correct?

It...it is a single committee report that contains a number of items, and Senator Marovitz' request is that, onez that committee report be dealt with individually from the other committee reports and thatfs...secondly, be dealt with seriatim as it were.

Well, I'd respectfully ask you that he 's trying to divide the committee report and that's not his prerogative. He can ask for a division of the House Qsic>y Which you have allowed and I gladly concur with, but he cannot individually divide the question of the committee report. The committee report is a1l inclusive and the only thinq before us is to vote the.o.the motion to... 1ay on the 12  STATE 0F ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslatkve Day April 26, 1989 Secretaryîs table the committees' report, not the indivkdual bills.

A11 right, Senator DeAngelis. Wellz...you dve restated the proposition three times and I have restated the proposition of Senator Marovitz' motion three times. We...I...I think ifp..the...the question of division, again, he has asked that that committee report be divided out from the others in terms of Senator Philip ls motion and further requested that the individual items on that report be handled individually in response to Senator Philip's motion, so that instead of standing on the Order of 2nd Reading, they would lie on the Table under Senator Philip's motion, and Senator Marovitz has requested that We handle the individual report and individual items on that report separately. And I think that request is in order and the Chair so states. Yes, Senator Davidson.

The question I asked Was that he as chairman of the committee making the report doesn't have th/ prerogative to...to divide the report and that's what he is askëng for. That only has the prerogative of..vof the whole committee and not he as an individual. Is that correet?

You keep asking me if that is correct and I'm trying to say, no. The motion is to have the..ethe motion is to have the bills on that report.s.on these reports stand on the secretahry 's Desk as opposed to 2nd readinq. So the motion is directed at the bills, and rather than take them as...as a composite, Senator Marovitz, under the Chair's ruling and under Rule 39, has a right as a member of this Body to divkde that question. Senator Davkdson.

Again, Mr. Presidentr he has tbe right to move for the 13  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 division on the motion but he doesn't have the right, in my opinion, as the chairman to divide the motion and...thatls what he is doing. He's dividing the motion and that's not What's before the House Ksicl. The motion before the House is the adoption of the committee report...whatever report it is do pass or do not pass, and the motion by Senator Philip is to 1ay that on the Secretary 's Desk. In my opinoin, and only my opinion, maybe not your's...

No. The motion as I understood Senator Philip to make because it's a motion he has made before, is to have the bills that were reported favorably out of these committees lie on the Secretary's Desk; and his request is to divide the question and deal with the subject matter of that motion, namely the bills, individually. And I think that request is in order. Senator Schaffer.

I just wanted to request a roll call on that motion that Senator Marovlta has now made.

Well, it's a request, it is not a motion. The..othe motion will be.o.the motioh will be as Senator Philip requested it to be, that..wthat report.o.or if indeed there is a request, as there has been, these bills one at a time will be either put on the Secretary's Desk or put on 2nd reading. Right, that's what wedre trying to get to. Al1 riqht. Senator Marovitz, where do we start?

Well, Would like to start with Senate Bill 134.

ïes, Senator Joyce.

14  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 My lkght has been on, I believe.

I'm sorry, itoomit was not reflected here.

Thank you. 0h...we1l, maybe you preempted me. The electrician got there...a day earlyo..right. Yes, What wedre going to do noW is we are going to have a...we will have a debate on each one of these bills one by one, right? So...wel1, that's...l think that's a fine idea. I don't why...Why...in fact, I would have thought that that Would have been the request coming from the other side. I think that's an outstanding idea. We dll debate each and every one of these bills and we'll, in fact, be comparable to a...debate on unamended bills reported out of committee as We would have on 3rd readtng. I think itls a wonderful idea and let's go With it, we Won't be wasting any time that way.

Senator DeAngelis. All right.o.all righty Senator Philip has moved...the question before the Body is Senator Philip 's motion to have Senate Bill 134 lay on *he Secretary's Desk as opposed to standing on 2nd reading. Senator Philip.

.. . thank you, Mr. President. Am I to assume if that motion does not get thirty votes that that bill will end up on the Secretary's Desk?

No..-your...it is your motion to..-under Rule to have the bill 1ie on the Secretary's Desk as opposed to standing on the Order of 2nd Reading. So if your motion does not prevail, this bill will then stand on the Order of 2nd Reading, as I understand it. I think under Rule 8 it...it only takes a majority of those voting, do not think this requires a constitutional majority. 15  ' STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 A1l right, Senator Philip, itls your.o.you are the movant. Senator Schaffer.

Mr. President, we are now goihg..oapparently, going to go through a series of roll calls on a series of bills that are being reported out of committee structure that a majority of us here do not recognize. And I Would like to, at least for the recordz indicate that my votes, and I suspect the votes of many of us on this Ploor, to send these bills to the Secretary 's Desk are not, in facty a comment one way or the other on the status or merit or lack thereof of the individual bills but a reflection of our lack of recoqnition of the committee structure. And I would urqe everyone that is interested in seeing that position to prevail to support Senator Philip 's motion. We can get back...these bills and get them amended and get them on 3rd reading and have a debate at that point; but at this pointê I think it's appropriate for us to not discuss the merits of the bills but only to vote on the concept of the committee structure which we donlt recognize that they have been reported from. So I kould urge everyone to support Senator Phillp's motion bill by bill and I would move the previous question.

A1l right, Senator Philip has moved that Senate Bill l34 lie on the Secretaryfs Desk, and on that question, Senator Marovitz.

Thank you very muchg Mr. President and members of Ehe Senake. Well, 1...1 am in opposàtion to this particular motion beeause I think the subject matter of this bill...and we talking about whether or not to have this bill on 2nd readtng...

Senator Philip. Senator Philip.

16  STATE OF TLLTNOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslative Day April 26, 1989 Mr. President, we have asked for a roll call that's nondebatable and moved the question.

Well, it's...

It's not debatable.

o.. the...the motion to...to have the bill 1ie on the Secretary 's Desk in the opinion of the Chair is debatable. Senator Marovitz. Senator Marovitz, do you Wish to continue?

Yes, I doz Mr. President.

I'm sorry. Senator Philip .

I Would ask that you cite the rule. 1...1 mean, I don't find that rule.

That..othat's the point/ that under Rule 8 it says, ''All Senate bills favorably reported from committee shall stand on the Order of 2nd Reading unless otherwise ordered by the Senate'î. Your motion would ask the Senate to order that this bill 1ie on the Secretaryfs Desk as opposed to stand on 2nd Reading . And 1...1 can't find any prohibition of debate contained therein. Senator Marovitz.

Thank you very much, Mr. President. I am tn opposition...l stand in opposition Eo the motion on this particular bill. This is a very important subject matter to a 1ot of people across khe State of Illinois and deals With a sltuation where ehe court finds evidence that the emotional, physical or mental condition...mental health of a child is in jeopardy and a grandparent has come in and 17  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLX REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslative Day April 26, 1989 requested the court to have custody or visitation rights of that child where the court has found substantial evidence of mental, physical or emotion...emotional danger to the health of that child and this would give a grandparent in that limited situation an opportunity to come in, present evidence to the court and have visitation rights or custodial rights conferred upon him by the courE as a result of that evidence. think thatds an important subject matter. I think it needs to be debated by the full Senate. I think that the health, Welfare and safety of a 1ot of kids may be in question as a result of this. And I think we've all had letters from grandparents who are concerned about the health, welfare and safety, emotional, mental and physical, of their grandchildren and do not have an opportunity. This bill speaks to that issue and is an issue that people across the State of Illinois are concerned about, deserves to be debated by the full Senate; and I request that you oppose this motion, that it be placed on the Order of 2nd Reading so that we can move this bill along in the process.

Further discusion? Senator D 'Arco.

(Machine cutoffl...l can't believe what's going on here, Mr. President. This ise..this is incredulous to me...that's a nice wordz isn't it? Now... wait a minute. Geo: this is your bill, Geo . You want us to recite rules, this is the grandparents bill of righ*s, Geo. This is the bill you fouqht so hard forg Geo. What are you doing to me, Geo? Geo, this is for grandparents that are alienated from their grandchildren. Wefve got to help these grandparents, Geo, that's What you 've told me. You want to help our grandparents in Illinois. Don't do this to us# Geo.

Senator Hawkinson, for what purpose do you arise, sir? 18  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 SENATOR HAWKINSON : Mr. President, I rise on a point of inquiry and a point of order. PRESIDENT : Yes, sir. SENATOR HAWKINSON: > I was participating in the Judiciary Committee that heard this bill and...and several others, and I Would question Whether a quorum was...is indicated by the report of the committee on the roll call on this vote. The Senate had gone into Session before this and several other bills were considered, and I announced to the committee that the Republicans Were in caucus that had been called. I participated in earlier votes but I think that this and a good number of other bills in this report are not properly included in the report, there was no quorum present and it had been formally announced that the Senate was..othe Republicans were in caucus. PRESIDENT: The...the report does not indicate and.o.and as a...a matter of custom, that...that decision is...is left to the Chair. Senator Geo-Karis. Chair of the committee. Senator Geo-Karis. SENATOR GEO-KARIS: Mr. President, my colleague on the other side is going to the merits of tbe bill and not to the motion. Tbe motion is to liee..to 1et that bill lay...lie on the Secretary 's Desk. PRE:IDENT: You are correct. SENATOR GEO-KARIS: And if you look at the bottom part of Rule 35z it says that... PRESIDENT: ... 1 said you Were correct and you keep talking. Youfre 1 right. 19  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989

. .. all right, since IIm correct, then just ignore a11 this beautiful fanfare that doesn't relate to the motion.

Honest to God, you're correct, youfre right...you're right. Senator...senator DeAngelis.

Yes, a question of the Chairman of this committee.

Yes, that's...that is in order. Senator Marovitz..ohe indicates he will yield, Senator DeAngelis.

Senator Marovitz, are your attesting to a quorum being present When this bill was being heard?

Senator Marovitz.

Senator DeAngelis, at no time during the committee meeting, yesterday, was there ever a question about a quorum at any point. At no time during the committee meeting, yesterday, was I ever asked to refrain from voting on a bill. As a matter of fact, the Week before...the week before, a Republican member of the Senate asked me out of courtsey not to take a roll call on certain bills, and out of courtsey to that member I did not take any roll calls on those bills. Last...yesterday, when we had a committee meeting there was a quorum presentg aEkendance was taken, there was never a question of the quorum, the votes went ahead just as we proceed one..on all Senate bills in committee.

Senator DeAngelis.

1...1 really...am pleased with the nobility of your purpose 20 ! STATE OP ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 and your intent, but my question was simply, are you attesting to a quorum being present? PRESIDENT: Senator Marovitz. SENATOR MAROVITZ: I am attesting to a quorum being present at the Judiciary Committee yesterday. PRESIDENT: Senator Hawkinson..ooh, I'm sorryy I thought you were finished . Senator DeAngelis. SENATOR DEANGELIS: No, my question is When *his bill was heard, Senator Marovitz. PRESIDENT: Senator Marovitz. SENATOR MAROVITZ: Well, no one questioned a quorum at the time this bill came up. I don 't know if members sat there and dldn't vote. The fact is, the voke is what it is.o.the vote is what it is. Members may have decided not to vote on a particular bill because We had debate on the bill and there was...certain questions regarding the specific clauses in the bill. PRESIDENT: Senator DeAngelis. SENATOR DEANGELIS: still Would like to have an answer and (f...kf Senator Marovitz aEkests a quorum being present, want the...I want the record to reflect that, because I do believe we have certain rules regarding misrepresenting or misstating certain things deliberately. So, are you indicating that a quorum Was present when you heard this bill? That's al1 I Want to knog. PRESIDENT: Senator Marovitz. 21  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY 1 REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day . April 26, 1989 j

Once a quorum is present at a Senate committee, it is deemed to remakn present unless a quorum call is requested by any member. That reguest is always in order. No such requesE was made. Attendance was taken at the beqinning of the meeting and a quorum was present.

Senator Hawkinson...senator DeAngelis...senator Hawkinson.

Thank you, Mr. President. I don't dispute the fact that no quorum call was taken. The point...l made two points in my point of order. One Was, I challenge the presence of a quorum . I acknowledge that I did not because I Wasn't there, because when I left I advised the committee that the Senate had come in Session and that the Republieans Were in caucus and requested that no votes...further votes be takenz as I had done. I did not challenge the presence of a quorum but I made the point that the Senate had come into Session, the Senate had met, the committee had not stopped and that a formal Republican Caucus had been called and that that's Why 1 was leaving.

A1l right. Senator Philip may close. The motion is...if he wishes..othe motion is to have Senate Bill l34 1ie on the Secretary's Desk. And those in favor of that motion Will vote Aye. Opposed will vote Nay and the voting is open. Have a1l voted kho Wish? gave a11 voked who wish? Have a1l voted who wish? Take the record. On that question, there 30 Ayesz 28 Nays and the motion prevails. l34 is ordered to the Secretaryls Desk. Al1 right, Senator Philip has moved that..wor Senator Marovitz has requested a division and we are awaiting how he wishes the question further divided. Senator Marovitz.

22  STATE 0F ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 1 ; 17th Legkslatkve Day Aprit 26, 1989 Thank you very much, Mr. President. I would...request that Senate Bill 505, 506, 507 and 508...there also be division on those bills Which were heard yesterday in the Senate Judiciary Committee and that a separate roll call be taken on each of those bills.

Four roll calls? Senator Marovitz.

I'd be happy to accept one roll call on the four bills. Theyfre a...they're a package of bills.

o.o one roll call. Okay. It is a packaqe of bills, al1 right. Senator Philip has moved that Senate Bills 505, 506, 507 and 508 1ie on the Secretary 's Desk, and on that question, Senator Philip..mor Senator Marovitz.

Thank you very much, Mr. President and members of the...senate. Senate Bills 505, 506, 507 and 508 are a package of bills which stem from a Judiciary Committee...subcommittee rather on crime against the elderly Which heard testimony across the State of Illinois in all parts of the State regarding abuse and neglect, financial exploitation of the elderly, the likes of which hasn't been heard in this state ever before and reminds us of the time that ahild abuse cases were swept under the rug and only by...

Senator Geo-Karis.

Mr. President, point of order. Again, he is doing the very same thing which youfve...said earlier go into the bills. He is tryinq to explain every bill; wedre not to explain the bill, he's supposed to speak on the motion to Table...to 1ay on the Table and 23  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslatkve Day April 26, 1989 he's not doing it. I submit that we should have a roll call of the bills.

Well, the Chair...the Chair is prepared to rule Senator Geo-Karis: think the Senator is attempting to explain why the bills should be on the Order of 2nd Reading as opposed to the Secretary's Desk. Senator Marovitzyo..did you...

Thank you, Mr. President. Senate Bill 505 is an important bill to senior citizens across the State because it deals with financial exploitation of the elderly and helping with prosecution of those individuals who do financially exploit the elderly and depleat their very limited life savings. Senate Bill 506 deals with abuse and neglect, criminal neglectz if you Wil1, of the elderly,...create felony charges and treble damages, the...the kinds of things that social service agencies and physicans and laW enforcement people told us in these hearings they needed to get at those people Who perpetrate the crimes against the elderly. They needed these kinds of bills that make these...that make these kinds of crimes felonies, put people behind bars...return the money in triplicate to the senior citizens. This is What they said they needed from us, and that is What Senate Bill 506 is dealing withz criminal neglect and the endangerment of the health and welfaxe and safety of senkoz cktkzens acloss the state . Senate Bill 507 deals with a hearsay exception. Many social service agencies and law enforcement officials told us that they couldn't get the evidence to get at these people unless there was a hearsay exceptionz because people weren't around, their memories may havee.emay have failed them in their...in their senior years. They needed a hearsay exception in this limited set of circumstances, that is what Sena*ê B1ll 507 is about. That's what the law enforcement officials and the social service agencies 24  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSTON SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslatkve Day April 26, 1989 charged with this responsibility have asked us to do. And, finally, Senate Bill 507 requests that the judges throughout the State of Illinois take into consideration the advancing age of senior citizen in not allowing continuances to delay the carrying out of justicew..on these...these horrendous crimes against senior citizens, and would ask that we vote No on Senator Philip 's motion to lie these on the Table. This is a very important subjeet matter, deserves to be heard, moved ahead for the benefik for the elderly throuqhout the State of Illinois.

Pulther 6ïscusskon? Senator Hawkinson.

Thank...thank you, Mr. President. While I was also ln...in committee when these bills were discussed and I don't question the presence of a quorum but I do think that this points out in classic form why it would be a mistake to move this bills forward and rush ahead without the benefit of a full and complete hearings and amendment. For example, it was acknowledged by the author of the bills thak Senate Bill 505 actually reduces the penalty for deceiving ao..senior citizen of more than five thousand dollars, that this bill Wi11 make it Class 3 felony wben eurrent 1aw makes it a Class 2 felony, and that there are needs for...for further Work on these bills. The concepts are good, we ought to move forward on them, but this isn't the way to do it and.e.and I would urge that we lay these on the Secretary's Table until such time as there can be fureher work.

Purther discussion? Senator Dunn.

Thank you, Mr. President. I would suggest to the last speaker that that might be true, I was the sponsor of the bill, that 505 would reduce the penalty on crimes against the elderly. However, 25  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26r 1989 I would say that that was the only bill of this package that was acknowledged to have any errors in

Further discussion? Senator Collins.

Yes, Senator...senator Hawkins <sic> (Hawkinsonlr I would say the reason we ought to defeat the motion ls for exactly what you just said. If we place these bills on the Order of 2nd Reading, yes, and only at that point can we amend them , but they must go on the Order of 2nd Reading and then we can put the amendments on. The...the committee process has been going on and everyone here has been invited to and is assigned to the committees to participate. So the committee process also gives the public that opportunity to participate. But 2nd readin: gives this Body the opportunity to further debate and amend this bills. So if you deny these bills the right to go on 2nd reading, then you have also denied the riqht to advance them through the process. For that reason, too, rise in opposition to the motion to Table.

A1l right, any further discussion? Further discussion? Senator Marovitz, for the second time.

I1m sorry to rise for the second time but I just ought to say, this is a package of bills that received bipartisan support yesterday in the Judiciary Committee. There was not one single negatlvm vote. They were passed unanimously with bipartisan support and we agreed that Senate...that one of the bills needed an amendment on 2nd reading. You cannot fix a problem and amend a bill on the Secretaryfs Desk. The only way that can be done is by placing it on 2nd reading. We a1l agreed it needed an...a correcting amendment, 2nd reading is the place to do that. It passed by bipartisan unanimous support, it.m.we ought to correct 26  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLX REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslative Day April 26, 1989 that problem and move it ahead, since this is a problem acknowledged by everybody, by placing it on 2nd reading.

Senator Philip, you wish to close?

Yes, thank you, Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate. As you know, these bills will still be alive if they are on the Secretary's Desk. We certainly have enough Eime this Session, we're only in the sixteenth legislative day; and, quite frankly, I think that there are some problems With them but we can certainly come back later in this Session and do the right. thing. 5o I certainly Would ask for an Aye vote. PRESIDENT) All right, Senator Philip has moved to place Senate Bills 505: 506, 507 and 508 on the Order of Secretary 's Desk. Those in favor of that motion will vote Aye. Opposed Will vote Nay and the voting is open. Have al1 voted who wish? Have a11 voted who wish? Have a11 voted Who wish? Take the record. On that question, there are 29 Ayesz 28 Nays. The motion prevails and the bills will be ordered to the Secretary's Desk. Senator Philip, I can presume noW that you Wish to proceed With your other motion with respect to the balance of the committee reports. Senator Philip has moved that the committee reports previously read by the Secretary...l'm sorrye Senator Keats.

This is not a partisan thing. These switches are a mess. I am hittinq these three and four times to vote. Can we ask, once we finish this fighting, that We perhaps ask somebody... I mean, I'm bangin: away on this thln: to get a vote. There ls somethln: the matter with these switches. I'm sorryy I just wanted to raise that as nonpartisan, but there is a legitimate problem.

27  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBL; REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslative Day April 26, 1989 I understand, I had the same problem up here. Senator Topinka.

A point of personal privilege on...

State your point.

did hit the Yes button on that and did not record. If...if you would look at the electrical system, I'd appreciate it.

That will be...that will be done. We are a1l having the same problem. Senator Philip.

Thank you, Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate. As you know, we have continually had a problem with the switches over here. I think We ought to give the.v.the members a courtesy having another vote on what We have just done. And, quite frankly, there has been a problem, we have mentioned it more than once on the Floor of the Senate...

The motioneeethe motion prevailede.mand wefll have another identical motion in about one minute here. All riqht, Senator Philip has moved that the committee reports just read in by the Secretary...let me see that motion...the bills reported in those committee reports 11e on the Secretary's Desk. Those in favor of that motion will vote Aye. Those opposed will vote Nay and *he voting is open. Have a1l voted who wish? Have all voted who Wish? Have a1l voted Who Wish? Take the record. On that question, there are 30 Ayesz 28 Nays. The motion prevails and the bills reported in those committee reports will be ordered to lie on the Secretary's Desk. Resolutionsg Madam Secretary..ol'm 28  STATE oF ILLINOIS 86th REGENERKLASSEMBLY ULAR SESSION 1 I SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 sorry, Senator Philip.

... thank you, Mr. President. There is a motion filed to discharge, could we please go to that motion?

Well, I was just going to go down the regular order...the answer is# with leave of the Body, We can do virtually anything around here.

Well, I'm asking for leave of the Body then, Mr. President.

Okay. I've...wedve got more...we lve got multiple motions to discharge. All I'm trying to do is sort out who 's :ot what, then We 'll go right there. Senator Schaffer.

I was just going to respectfully request that...any point the proceedings that there is any motion to adjourn, Recess, stand at easez parade rest or anything else to request a roll call on that motion.

A11 right. With leave of the Body, wedll go to the Order of Motions to Discharge. Senator Etheredge, I presume, I think, has filed that motiony Madam Secretary. Read the motion, please . k

I move to...suspend all appropriate rules and to discharge the :pecial Temporary CommltEee on Appropriations I from further consideration of Senate Bi11 385, and that Senake Bill 385 be plaeed on the Senate Calendar on the Order of 2nd Reading. I request a roll call on this motion. Piled by Senator Etheredge.

Senator Etheredge on his.p.on.o.recognized for the purpose of a motion to discharge Senate Bill 385. Senator Etheredge. 29  STATE 0F ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989

Thank you: Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate. This is the supplemental appropriation. It contains a number of items that are essenEial for the proper operation of State Government through the remainder of this fiscal year. I would point out that it includes among other things a supplemental appropriation to the Department of Public Health for the funding of the Womendsz Infant and Children's Proqram. It includes an appropriation as well to the Department of Revenue to make appropriate disbursements to one hundred thousand people...one hundred thousand of our citizens Who are entitled to circuit breaker checks. also includes an appropriation to the State Lottery which will enable the lottery to make the appropriate prize payments to people. So would earnestly request your support of this discharge motion in order that we can put this bill on 2nd Readingz that we can...hopefully debate it and pass out of this Body soon in order that the State Government can continue to function appropriately through the rest of this fiscal year.

A1l right. Senator Etheredge has moved to discharge the Commitkee on Appropriations from further consideration of Senate Bil1 385 and asked that the bill be placed on the Order of 2nd Reading. Discussion? Senator Carroll.

Thank you, Mr. Preskdent, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate . Obviously I have questions with this and woulda..oppose the motion at this time, but 1et me state why. This bill had been posted by both topic and number yesterday. The Governor and the Republican Party saw fit to deny the public information on the contents of this legislation. We sat there in committee with a quorum present. We acted on budgets that were presented ko that 30  STATE 0F ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Leqislative Day April 26, 1989 committee. This bill, because of its subject matter, was to be heard by both the Appropriations Committee and the Appropriations 11 Committee. Notice had been properly posted for yesterday's hearing and I believe also properly posted for Senator Hall's Appropriations 11 Committee. Just as We were going into committee, we were advised by the Office of the Governor that they Would not present any testimony in support of this bill, supposedly critical to the operation of government, nor any other bill. We asked Wby were these needed, and they decided to renain silent. Why, for example, do we need a million tWo hundred thousand dollars for legal fees in the Department of Chkldren and Family Services for cases they could not tell us were going to court or for law firms they could not identify? Why, for example, dq we need money for some communities to qet sewer projects outside of the legislation that we provided last year for those communities who need matches to get, in fact, sewer projects? Who 's qetting favored treatment and why? Why are they afraid to come to a public forum and discuss those issues? Why, for example, in the Department of State Poliee that has a transfer capability of a million three hundred thousand dollars do they want to give some favored few overtime pay without transferrin: the funds but asking us to assess the taxpayers af Illinois for those favored few instead of using the transferability they had? Maybe we start to understand why they did not want to come and testify in a public forum as required by our rules and considered by the Constitution of the Sta*e of Illinols. Why, for example, do we want in the Department of Public Health to pay for certain items never budgeted, never asked for, never discussed in an open forum before the people of the State of Illinois? The same is true department by department by department. We are seeing agencies of State Government who have violated federal law, and we are told to assess the taxpayers of Illinois for those violations. 31  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 Ohz I could understand why the Office of the Governor does not want a public debate on those type of issues. I could understand Why they would Want to hide from the taxpayers of Illinois the fact that they are trying to inappropriately spend these kinds of money. Why not appear at a committee and testify when there Was notice? Why a demand from the Governor of the State of Illinois to remain silent to the people of this State? NoW We know what this is a11 about. It's to hide the abuses of the budget process from the people of Illinois.

Further discussion? Genator Fawell.

Thank youzo..thank you, Senator Rock. Senator Carroll, I have served on the Appropriations Committee for four years. That's the first time I have any idea what in the world We are doing. Thank you.

Further discussion? Senator Luft.

Thanko..thank you, Mr. President. I'm not so sure that...l know how to spell it but I knoW it when I see it, and I think the word is hypocrisy. We just sat here and went through one or tWo roll calls to put bills on the Table...or the Secretary Desk, Ilm sorry, because they were not debated properly in committee, because we didn't have proper committee hearings and because the people 's business was not allegedly done properly. Now we lre sittin: here with a motion to discharge Committee on senate B:ll 385 that Was never heard in committee, that is millions and millions of dollars of money that absolutely nobody...and, Senator Fawell, it's no surprise over here you donlt understand Senator Carroll, but it has been a long time of hypocrisy here for about the last forty-five minutes. Well, 1et me just tell you one 32  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 thing; this Senator does not choose to participate in hypocrisy. 1'11 do a little bit of politics, maybe a 1ot of politics, but I wonlt do hypocrisy. This bill is important to the people of this State and the people that we represent, and you should have been in the committee meeting to make your case and you should have debated it. But 1911 tell you what I'm going to do, I'm going to support you because I care about the people in the State, not about politics; so 1'11 help put this on 2nd reading for you, and then maybe the people will get a fair hearing in the State. PRESIDENT: A11 right. Further discussion? Senator Etheredge, do you wish to close? Senator Etheredqe. SENATOR ETHEREDGE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask for a unanimous roll call on this motion to discharge. PRESIDENT: The question is, shall the Committee on Appropriations I be discharged from further consideration of Senate Bill 385 and the bill be placed on the Order of 2nd Reading. Those in favor of the motion to discharqe Will vote Aye. Opposed vote Nay, and the voting is open. Have al1 voted who wish? Have a11 voted who Wish? Have a11 voted Who wish? Take the record. On that question, there are 41 Ayes, 15 Nays: none voting Present. The motion prevails, and the bill will be ordered to...be ordered to the Order of 2nd Reading. Resolutionsz Madam Secretary. I'm sorry, Senator phllip . SENATOR PHILIP: 1...1 think properly so, I have filed some more motions, wefre still on motions. I would like to proceed. PRESIDENT: I was not aware that further motions had been filed...even as we speak. (Machine cutoffl..omotions have been filed, which do 33 1  STATE OP ILLINOIS 86th GENENAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 you wish to proceed with? Senator Brookins: for what purpose do you arise?

Yes, Mr. President..pMr. President, I make a motion that we discharge Senate Bill 67, which is the income tax bill.

Well, we...we have a motion in front of you, Senator Brookins . If you'll submit that in Writing, Wedll certainly get to that one. Senator Jacobs, for what purpose do you arise?

Just the...proverbial problem, Mr. President. On that last vote I pushed my button, it didn't show. I'd like to be recorded as Aye.

Well...yes, I think thato..again,...and I appreciate that...we...we are atkempting...the Chair is attemptin: to keep the voting open so that tàe members Will have time to...to recognize whether or not their switch Was effective. Senator Demuzio, for What purpose do you arise?

Well, Mr...Mr. President: we have committee hearings that were supposed to start at two o'clock; it is now three-khirtyy I move that we adjourn.

Wellzo.oeasy ...easy now...we...we got to get to the income tax, riqht. A1l riqhts Senator Philip has presented motions and then we will talk about adjournment. Madam Secretary, will you read the first motion.

I move to suspend temporary Senate Rule 45 during the consideration and vote upon the motion to amend Senate .m . temporary Senate Rule 45. request a roll call vote upon this motion. 34 - STATE 0F ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY RECULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 Filed by Senator Philip. PRESIDENT: Senator Dudycz, for What purpose do you arise, sir? SENATOR DUDYCZ: Mr....Mr. President, Senate Bill 385 is bein: recorded here wieh the following Senators not having voted: Senator Degnan, Senator Dudycz, Senator Jacobs. Nou, my switch was green and it was showing green upon.a.on the board. Can you tell me if it has been recorded by the Secretary? PRESIDENT : Welly I presume we can run a second roll eall. Oh, wedve got the same copy. 1...1...1 cannot explain thaty Senator Dudycz, and the record will reflect at least by audio that you were and did intend to vote green. SENATOR DUDYCZ: No, I did vote green, Mr. President. It did show green, my.m.my switch showed green... PRESIDENT: But the roll call didn't print out. SENATOR DUDYCZ: . .. but the sheet of paper here that I have in front of me shows no vote. NoW somebody is screwin: up sonewhere. PRESIDENT: Well: the only thing I can tell you is.w.is that our experience is that the...the printout reflects khat's on *he boards..and beyond thate we'l1...we'l1 certainly have it eheckedv but...yea, Senator Dudycz. SENATOR DUDXCZ: I just...l just want the record to reflect, Mr. President, that the board had a green light by my name and the printout did not show that I had voted. So you are incorreet there, sir. PRESIDENT: 35  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLX REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 Al1 right. Senator Philip to explain his motion.

Thank you, Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen of the..wsession. What this motion does is...to suspend the motion 45 till we debate on As you know, We dve always said on this side of the aisle, When you got thirty votes you ought to be able to vote on anything: and we want to 9et to the point to have a roll call on...on having it a simple Rajority like it is in the Illinois House of Representatives, like it's in the Federal Congress, the House and the Senate, and like itls in..oeighty-five other legislative bodies in the United States; it takes a simple majority, not an extraordinary majority.

A11 right. Senator Philip has moved to suspend temporary...senate Rule 45 durlng the consideration and vote upon the motion Eo amend temporary Senate Rule 45, and a roll call has been requested. Senator Demuzio.

Yes, I'd like to have a ruling from the Chair as to Whether or not this motion is, in fact, in order.

Well, the Ehair is prepared to rule that, given leave of this Body, it is in order and it's almost inevitable. The Chair is also prepared to rule that it's goin: to take an extraordinary majority to have this motion prevail. I am prepared to state my reason. senator Philip.

1...1 would brin: to the attention of the Chair Rule 30, Suspension of Rules, ''Roll call of the majority of the Senators elected''.

Senator DeAngelis. 36 r-- STATE OF ILLINOTS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 SENATOR DEANGELIS: Are we fintshed with that... PRESIDENTI No g I...I1n not...that Wa's a statement . He Was ealling Senate Rule 30 to my attention and I appreciate that. SENATOR DEANGELIS: Well, Senator Rockz I think that the reason for the motion is rather self-evident. However, the evidence to support it is even more self-evident, because on the very motion that We asked you to suspend the rules to discuss the motion that ought to be changed, we are not going to be given that opportunity. And, franklyy I have always felt that this House is operated in a fairly good order; however: do believe that when somethlng hangs over your head as deliberatious and odious as that rule is, sometimes the compliance comes out of necessity rather than out of sincerity. And I do really believe that We are not golng to get about the business of the state till this issue is either given an opportunity to be voted on or dealt...dealt with in a fair manner. And I think the longer we defer the right of a minority...just a minuteo..the right of a minority when joined by other people to hear somethkn: : I think the worse shape We are going to be. We are a representative body and we cannot in a11 fairness represent who we are sent down here to represent if we are not accorded ehe opportunity to act in the manner that allows whatever disagreements there are or whatever judgments that have to be made to be made by a constitutional majority. Al1 of us accept the rule of majority, but I really don't believe that as lon: as there is one opportunity for an extraordinary majority to have to prevail, then I really do believe that.o.particularly When it's in the control of the Chair, I really do believe you are takin: away not only the rights of minorities but the rights of majorities When they act together. And..and frankly, Senator Rocky I think  STATE QF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislakive Day April 26y 1989 you would serve yourself much better if you had not ruled that way and kf you would give us the opportunity in this Body. And I concur With you sometimes when you say, well, we can 't fllp around. Well, welre not asking to flip around because there has been several issues that have never been approved or never been voted on# and think the time has come that we go about doing that.

All right. Further discussion? If not, the Chair ts prepared to rule that the adoption of this motion will require a two-thirds vote predicated upon a strict eonstruction of Senate Rule 30 as it is Written and Robert's Rules of Order, because if you have a careful readin: of Senate Rule 30 as is written in the negative, shows that is written as a prohibition againse altering, suspending or rescinding a rule with fewer than thirty votes. It is not an affirmative statement as to the number of votes required to alter, suspend or reseind a specific rule, establishes a floor; and in order to detemine the vote requirements to alter, suspend or reseind a specific rule, we have eo again turn to Robert's Rules of Order. And according to Robertbs, Senate Rule 45, which has been a rule of this Senate since 1973, may be fairly regarded as a rule of order or a rule of parliamentary procedure which requires a two-thirds vote, according to Section 25, for its suspension or amendment. Having initially been adopted as this rule was by a unanimous roll call vote pursuant to Senate Resolution 2, on January 11, 1989, it Will now take, the Chair rules, forty votes to alter, suspend or rescind Rule 45. Senator Geo-Karis.

Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate, we still have Rule 30 in operation khich saysz ''Suspension of the Rules.î' And if you 'll read very carefully, as I have tried to read, 38 ' STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 says, ''No rule of *he Senate shall be alteredp suspended or rescinded except by unanimous consent of the Senators present or...or upon motion supported by affirmative vote on a roll call of a majority of the Senators elected'. think we are in order to have this motion heard, if there's thirty votes passing it...I think that's ïou cannot invoke an extraordinary majority, just to quote from Shakespeare...the devil quotes scripture to his oWn purpose. That's what you're doin: now, you're just quoting it to your own purpose and you know that's nok the rule. END OF TAPE TAPE 2 PRESIDENT: Purther diseussion? Senator Philip. SENAQOR PHILIP: Thank you, Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate. You know, thirty-six votes is bad enough. I can't believe that We...you have come to the conclusion it takes forty votes to do anything in this legislative Body. PRESIDENT: No, I didnlt say that. SENAQOR PHILIP: ...you know What? I've only been here a short time, twenty-three years. I ean never remember in the history of the House or the Senate that it ever took any more than the majority to do anything. And 1...1 Will tell you one thing, that ls so far out of line it ts absolutely unbelievable, and I Will quote you Senator Rocky ''It only takes thirty votes to change the rules''. Now, al1 of a sudden, itls going to take not thirty-six, forty. 39 / STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 ïou know, rightly or wrongly...the thirty members bave a right to vote on any motion sr any bill, and for you to find these wingding reasons to rule us of out of order to get to thirty-six is...is unbelievable. Now you've gone to forty. suppose tomorrow it Will be seventy-five. It's unfair, unconstitutional, undignified, un-American. And you know what? A1l We are demanding is a roll call on motions. It takes thirty votes to pass the bill here. It's always taken thirty votes to do everything in this Body. Now wetve sone from thirty votes to thirty-six. Now we are at forty. Unbelievable. PRESIDENT: Further discussion? Senator Schaffer. SENATOR SCHAFFER: Mr. President, 1...1 think it's clear that...Roberts or Masonîs do not supercede our rules, albeit...only our temporary rules. I think it's also unfair to indicate that a unanimous roll call in the first days of the Session is an indication of anything other than an agreement on all parties to take the temporary rules until that time as they could be debated, amended and perhaps, althouqh it's not traditional around here, to adopk ehem as permanent rules. That is a real perversion of the system and of any form of legislative logic that have ever heard of. You know, ten years ago, we had a rather interesting debate around here on February 14th, 1979, on an issue that some of us been around here awhile remember kith memories called the Equal Rights Amendment. And one of the most: I think, knowledgeable members of the Senate had a very interesting quote when arguing against the three-fifths requirement for the adoption of Constitutional Amendments, and that member said that a state legislature should not be able...or require a super majority for ratification and thereby fruserate the desire of a majority of its elected members. It was a very eloquent speech. 1'11 let you guess who gave 40  STATE OP ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26# 1989 Mr. President.

I lost that one.

But you were riqht on the issueo..of allowing a majority of the members to be frustrated by rules of these types. Now I realize that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, to quote Senator Dirksen, but I don't think that I am out of line to ask for consistency. This is an issue of majority rule. It's what every one of us talks about When we speak to a high school, a grade school class. It's What We tell the people of this State this system is a11 about. There are thirty members who have elearly, repeatedly, demonstrated a willingness to get on with the business of the Senate, to amend the rules, to reform the rules, and to restructure this Body in a way they feel w1ll make it more responsive to the needs of the people of Illinois. And this last ruling, while highly creative, is totally out of line.

Further discussion? Senator Kustra.

Thank you, Mr. Fresident and members of the Senate. I've rangled over the deliberations in this Chamber for the last two Weeks trying to figure out for the most part how you try to explain What's going on here to the folks back home. To dater I haven't been able to sum up for those folks back home just what we're a1l about because of theo.vcomplex issues before us. Senator Rock, your rulinq a moment aqo makes that job a lot easier for a11 of us. It's one thinq...it is one thing for you to refuse to call some motions which you simply are afraid would change the power base you have here in this Chamber. It's another thing for you to send a message to the people of the State of Illinois Who are represented in this General Assembly that We are now moving 41  STATE OF TLLINOIS 86*h GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT l7*h Legislative Day April 26, 1989 from majority rule to extraodinary rule to extra extraordinary rule, because that is exactly What you/ve just done by this outrageous ruling. I don't know how any of us can go home and report to our constituents and eampaign in the next election and talk about the majority rule that is embedded in our Constitution, our Unlted States Constitution, our State Constitution and all the rules Which we abide by, and then make any attempt to defend the kind of ruling before you. This smaeks in the face of democratic government, representative government. It frustrates those who we represent because we here in the Senate cannot do what they sent us here to do. This is a decision, Senator Rock, I think you will regret more than any you have ever made.

Further discussion? Senator Joyce.

(Machine eutoffl...l will do something that I don't do and that is speak to the people in the press on this issue. What We are talking about hereg Senator Rock, you know it and every member of this Chamber knoks it, is a extreme dissatisfaction with the approprkation process. Now what caused people to be where they are in this issue is a totally different question. But the fact of the matter is...is that there is a significant concern about the Way the appropriation process is operated in this Chamber for at least the last decade. If you want to put tapes over a11 those names up there and flash whether or not people in this chamber...the members of this chamber thought that this process is fair, you and I both know tha: the vote would be overwhelmingly in support of a change in the way that that system is operated. Thirty people say should be changed. A hundred and ninety thousand people sent me here. I am forty-six years old. I've been teaching law for fifteen years. I am a licensed attorney. You run to the press and tel1...tel1 them I'm a renegade, I'm a 42  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86*h GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 disgrace, I'm an embarrassment. Thirty people, it's a majorityz youdve said it time and time again around this place. That's the issue. You can run from it but youdre not going to change, because he's going to stay there and I'm going to stay there. So you can send your little lackeys out. They can whisper in the ears of the press. They can buy them a beer. They can give them a free meal. They can hope that they print it the Way that they told them, but the fact of the matter is, fifty-nine people in this Chamber know the truth.

Further discussion? Senator DeAngelis. Senator Demuzio.

Thank you, Mr. President. You knowz Senator Schaffer, you and I both Were here back in 1981 during that rump Session that...which you claim to have elected Mr. Shapiro as the Senate President. And you know What? I have in front of me the same resolutions and the same rules that you adopted during that rump Session that's provided for the three-fifths majority in order to change the rules. In addition to that, I might point out, you fellows went even a little further. When you established the Committee on Committees, you didn't put any Democrats on, and I can point out and point out and polnt out a number of other...reasons for your hypocrisy here today that.m.that you are attemptin: now too.oto change these rules: the same rules that never...have been in effect since 1971, probably back to the Arrington days, rules that you, yourself,...adopted during that 1981 rump Session, and it just seems to me that this is the height of hypocrisy today.

Further discussion? Senator Fawell.

Thank you very much. Senator Demuzio, 1, too, Was here in 43  STATE OF ILLINQIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 1981, and I came over here from the House and watched when we... you attempting to get a...a President elected, and we, in the Senate, on the Republican side decided that perhaps tWenty-nine votes, since you couldn't muster up your thirty at the time, would be sufficient. You took that to the eourts. The courts ruled majority rules. Majority meant thirty. A11 wedre saying is that's khat the rules should be. Thirty votes should rule in this Chamber. We have thirty votes. We have those resolutions signed by thirty members of this Chambery and just like the Supreme Court ruled, thirty makes it. Welve got it. ïou should allow us to vote for it. PRESIDENT: Al1 right. Further discussion? Senator Philip, you Wish to close? SENATOR PHILIP: I just would appeal the rule of the Chairz Mr. President. PRESIDENT: All right. Before the main motion is put, that...that...that is in order. The question is, sball the ruling of the Chair be sustained. Those in favor of sustaining the ruling will vote Aye. Opposed sustaining the ruling Will vote Nay, and the voting is open. Senator Dudycz, for what purpose do you arise? SENATOR DUDYCZ: Mr. President, as in the last votez the board shows that have voEed... PRESIDENT: ... kel1, we'll see if the print... SENATOR DUDYCZ: ... and ie shows on...on my button. just don't know how the printout is going to deal with it. PRESIDENT: All right. Wedll see momentarily here. Have a11 voted Who 44 k  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 Wish? Have al1 voted who wish? Have all voted Who Wish? Take the reeord. On that question, the Yeas are 28, the Nays are 30. Havin: failed to receive the necessary three-fifths negative vote, the appeal fails and the ruling of the Chair is sustained. Now, we'll see about the printout. Apparently this printout does have you properly recorded, Senator Dudycz. A11 right. Senator Philip. Yes, Senator Philip.

Thank you, Mr. Presidentz Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate. I stillo..still think have one main motion, and I Would like to proceed.

A1l right. The motion has...the motion is to suspend Temporary Rule, Senate 45 during the consideration and vote upon the motion to amend Temporary Rule Senate...Temporary Senate Rule 45. Those in favor of the motion to suspend will vote Aye. Opposed will vote Nay. The voting is open. Have a11 voted who wish? Have a11 voted who wish? Take the record. On that question, there are 30 Ayesz 28 Nays and the motion fails. Senator Philip.

I think there's another motion...

ïes.

... filed, Mr. President... PRESIDENT There is another one.

... 1 would request a roll call.

All right. All right, Madam Secretary, Will you read the 45  STATE 0P ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legkslatkve Day April 26, 1989 motion. SECRETARY : We move to suspend al1 applicable and relevant temporary Senate Rules for the purpose of the immediate consideration and adoption of the following amendment to Senate Temporary Rule 45. The amendment rule to read as follows with the underscored language being added and the overstruck language being deleted. Rule 45 appealing a ruling of the presiding officer. Piled by Senator Philip et a1. PRESIDENT : Senator Philip. SENATOR PHILIP: Thank you, Mr. Presidenty Ladies and Gentlemen of the Senate. ...as you know, what this doesz amends Rule 45 to make it a simple malorkty, thkrty. When we filed that motion, I believe we filed with thirty written signatures. I would request a roll call and remind the membership that the United States Congress, House and Senate, has a simple majority. The Illinois House has a simple majority. Eighty-five percent of the Legislatures in the United States have a simple majority...and Robert's Rules of Order. PRESIDEN%: All right. The Chair will indicate that the same ruling will apply. This is a motion to amend as opposed to suspend, but it's subject to the same provisions in the opinion of the Chair. And on that motion' khose in favor will vote Aye. Opposed will vote Nay, and the voting is open. Have a1l voted who wish? Have al1 voted who wish? Have a11 voted who wish? Take the record. On that question: there are 30 Ayes, 28 Nays, none voting Present, and the motion fails. ïes, Senator DdArco, for what purpose to you arise, sir? SENATOR D'ARCO: 46 /  STATE 0F ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 Point of personal privilege, Mr. President.

State your point.

I just want to indicate for the reeord that Senator Philip constantly compares this Body with the House and the rules of the House with the rules of the Senate. They've got a rule in the House that allows them to replace people on committees With other people Without that person's consent. So they can ram any bill they want through the committee. Soz we shouldn't be comparing rules unless you Want to compare a11 rules together equally between both Houses. And if you do that, I think this Body is a much fairer Body than the Body on the other side of the Rotunda, Senator Philip .

A1l right. Resolutions, Madam Seeretary. Senator Geo-Karis, for what purpose do you arise?

Mr. President, a point of parliamentary inquiry. On February l4, 1979, I was here when the debate took place about super majorities and you Were the gentleman that said for a state Legislature to require a super majority would frustrate the desire of a...of a majority of its elected members. Were you wrong then or are you Wrong today?

Further discussion? Senator Philip.

Thank you, Mr. President. Point of personal privilege.

State your point, sir.

And 1...1 might remind Senator D'Arco that a majority is a 47  i ! STATE OF ILLINOIS 86*h GENERAL ASSEMBLY i REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 majority is a majority. I compare it with the United States Congress, House and Senate. Eighty-five percents of the legislators...Legislatures in the United States has a simple majority. Now, take everything in this place, it should take a simple majority. You know wedre right. There are thirty votes here. We ought to get on with the business of the State of Illinois, the business of the people and do What's right. Thirty votes are thirty votes are thirty votes are the majority.

Resolutions, Madam Secretary.

Senate Resolution 216 offered by Senators Berman, Maitland, Demuzio and Kustra. Senate Resolution 217 offered by President Rock. Senate Resolution 218 offered by Senator Macdonald . Senate Resolution 219 offered by Senator Maitland. Senate Resolution 220 offered by Senator Geo-Karis. Senate Resolution 221 offered by Senators Geo-Karis and Barkhausen. Senate Resolution 222 offered by Senator Zito. Senate Resolution 223 offered by Senator Zito. Senate Resolution 224 offered by Senator Topinka. Senate Resolution 225 offered by Senator Madigan. And Senate Resolution 226 offered by Senator Dudycz. Senate Resolution 227 offered by Senator Geo-Karis. They 're all congrakulatory.

All right. Consent Calendar, Madam Secretary. Messages from the House.

/ A Message from the House by Mr. O'Brien, Clerk. Mr. President - I am directed to inform the Senate that 48  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26, 1989 the House of Representatives has passed bklls of the following titles, in the passage of which I am instructed to ask the concurrence of the Senate, to wit: House Bills 433, 87, 139, 140, 147, 176, 264, 352, 459, 138, 164, 193, 245, 252, 287, 291, 305, 315, 470, 514, 550, 640, 715, 764, 807, 877, House Bill 77# and 332. Passed the House April 25th, 1989. Filed by John F. 0' Brien, Clerk of the House.

Those House bills Will be referred to the Committee on Assignment. Messages from the House.

A Message from the House by Mr. O 'Brien, Clerk. Mr. President I am directed to inform the Senate that the House of Representatives has adopted the following joint resolution, in *he adoption of which I am instructed to ask the concurrence of the Senate, to wit: House Joint Resolution 35. Adopted by the House April 5th,...Apri1 25th, 1989. John O'Brien, Clerk of the House.

Consent Calendar. A1l right, Ladies and Gentlemen, any further business to come before the Senate? Announcements of any kind? Senator Philip and I have agreed that We will adjourn until noon tomorrow. And I have further agreed that the Rules Committee will meet at nine-thirty, in Room 2l2 to discuss any and all suggested changes as ls proper under our procedure. Senator Marovikz. SENATOR MAROVITZZ Thank you, Mr. President. The Judiciary Subcommittee on the Code of Civil Procedure Wi11...Wi11 meet in Room A-I at four-thirty today. That is Senators Carroll, Senators Berman, Senator Barkhausen and Senator HaWkinson.

49  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislatlve Day April 26, 1989 All right. Senator Macdonald.

Yes. Mr. President, I would like to Table Senate Bill 54 which is...almost identical and is identical in content to Senator Schuneman's Senate Bill 756.

Senate Bi1l 54, where is it? Where does it reside, may I ask? That motion is in order, just Where is the bill?

. .. assigned to committee, I presume. Temporary Insurance Committee.

All right. Senator Macdonald has moved to...to discharge the Committee on Insurance and Pensions from further from further.aoconsideration of Senate Bill 54 for the purpose of Tabling. A1l in favor of the motion to discharge indicate by sayinq Aye. A11 opposed. The Ayes have it. The motion prevails. Senator Macdonald now moves to Table Senate Bill 54 as its Senate sponsor. A1l in favor of the motion to Table indicate by saying Aye. All opposed. The Ayes have it. The motion prevails and the bill is Tabled. Senator Joyce.

Thank you, Mr. President. The Executive Committee Will meet right after the close of the Session.

senator smith.

Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to merely announce that the Special Temporary Committee on Public Health, Welfare and Corrections will meet tomorrow morning, Thursday, April the 27the in Room 400. I'm asking a1l members to please be present and on time. Thank you. 50  STATE OF ILLINOIS 86th GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGULAR SESSION SENATE TRANSCRIPT 17th Legislative Day April 26# 1989

Senator Alexander.

Thank youz Mr. President. The Election and Reapportionment Committee, the Special Temporary Committee Will meet at 10:00 a.m. tomorrow in Room A-I, and a1l members are requested to be present.

Senator Jacobs.

Thank you, Mr. President. The Special Temporary Labor Committee will meet in Room A-I immediately after Recessy and if everyone gets there on time, we shouldn't be long.

Senator Holmberg.

Thank you, Mr. President. Local Government Special Temporary Committee will meet immediately in Room 400.

Senator Hall.

Thank you, Mr. President. Appropriations 11 Special Temporary Committee will meet at 10:00 a.m . in the morning in Room 212.

Any further business? If...if not, Senator Demuzio moves that the Senate stand adjourned until Thursday, April 27th. Tomorrow, Thursday, a: *he hour of noon, Ladies and Gentlemen. The hour of noo n. 51  REPORTJ TJFLOAY STATE 0F ILLINOIG PAGE t ! 09:26 86TH GENERAL ASSEMBLY 03/02/90 SyNAy: DAILY TAANSCRIPTION OF OEBATE IND8X APRïL 2â4 1989 55-005* TAbtù: PAGE 50 bGR-02l6 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE *8 l SR-O2t; REGULUTIOS OFFERED s , . t - o218 RENGLUTION OFFERED PAGE PAGE 48 #8 SR-ù2l9 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE *8 SR-0220 RESULUTION UFFERED PAGE #8 5:-0221 QEGOLUTION GFFERED PAGE *8 5R-0222 RESOLUTIBN OFFERED PAG6 46 52-0223 RESGLUTISN OFFERED PAGE #: 5R-0224 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE #8 5R-0225 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE *8 5R-0226 RESSLUTION OFFERED PAGE *8 5R-0227 RUSOLUTION OFFERED PAGE :8 HJR-O035 RESOLUTION OFFERED PAGE 49 SUBJEET IIATTER SENATE T0 OROER - PREGIDENT ROCK PAGE 1 PRAYER - FATHZR CHARLES E. OLSHEFSKY PAGE 1 RECESS PAGE 2 SENATE RKEGNVENES - PRQSIDENT RGEK PAGE Z JOURNALZ - FAILED PAGE 2 COMHITTEE REPORTS PAGE 3 V MOTION-SEN. PHILIP REz EOMM. REPORTS SECT. DESK PAGE # SENATOR MAROVITZ - DIVISION OF QUESTION PAGE 5 MOTION Yû TABLE - GEN. HAROMITZ: REQUEST PAGE 5 M0T10N - SPN. PHILIP APPEALS RULING QF CHZfR PAGE 9 SEN. KAROVITZ REr SEN. PHILIP-EûHM. REPPRT XJTICN PAGE 11 ' MOTION REz SB t3* - SECT. DESK PAGE 1* MOTION REI S8'S 505, 5061 507, 508 - SEET. DESK PAGE 23 ..>10T1ON RE: COMM. REPORTS SECT. DESK PAGE 28 . Y0T10& REr DISEHARGE SD 385 PAGE 29 :0T10N - SUSPEND/AMEND IEtIP. SEN. RULE #5 PzGf 34 MOTION - SENATOR PHILIP APPFALS RULING OF CHAIR PAGE ## NSTION - SENATOR PHILIP AMENDS TEMP. SEN. RULE 45 PAGE :6 . MESSAGEIS) FRO: TBE HOUSE PAGE #: A9JOURNMENT PAGE 51 i 1-- '' ''T---.L- = . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - .. 1