Illinois House Floor Debate — June 8, 1972

1 Hon. Robert Blair: nRoll Ca11 fo'r attendance. Those cf you who have ah .. Bills that ah .. you would like to have the Chair consider ealling, if you would 1et us know that so that we can mark xour .calendar accordingly . Messages from the Senate.'' : &' $.'.. (u ! ' ..' .-- .- -' . ,,: -s;, . G E N E R A L A S S E 51 B L Y j.;. '-w 2% *lt.(':'.,EsL4%z*'j '' y -, . ' sv' Avuo,.'uuI, qo, HotlSE oF REeHEst's ;NTATIV eS . ..''  . ' g Eredric B. Selcke: ''A Message from the Senate by Mr/ Wright, ' Secretary . Mr. Speaker - I am directed to inform'the House of Representatives that the Senate has concurred with the House of Representatives in tY passage of a Bill of the following title: House Bill 4426. Together with the follow ing Amendment. in the adoption of which I am instructed to ask the concurrence of the House. Passed the Senate: as amended, June 1972. Kçnneth Wright: S' ecretary. Mr . Speaker - I am directed to inform the House of Representa- tives that the Senate has concurred with the House of Repre- sentatives in the passage of a Bill of the following title: House Bill 1954.. Together with the following Amendment, in the adoption of which I am instructed to ask concurrence of the House . Action taken by the Senate, June 7, .1972. Kenneth Wright. Secretary . Mr. speaker ,- I am directed to inform the House ok Representatives'that the Senafe has'con- curred with the House of Representatives in the passage of a Bill of the following title: House Bill 2267.. Tog:ther with the following Amendment, in the adoption of which I am instructed to ask the concurrence of the HousY. Passed the Senate, as amended, June 7, 1972. Kenneth Wright, Secre ' tary . Mr. Speaker I am directed to inform the House of Representatives that the Senate has concurbed with the House of Representatives in the passage of a Bill of the following title: House Bill 3619. Together with the following Amend- ment, in the adoption of which I am instructed to ask con- currence of the House. Passed the Senate, . as amended, June #. . X âz.,>.' .. /k .N .-.xz''w?y l G E N E R A L A S S E 51B L Y ;k f: .t. '. .e'- 2I ) STAT6 oF ILLINO,S .' (Zn' L- .'*J' Ho klSE oF K4EPRESt:NTA.T1VE:5 .1x. i-rl..-%e%* ' h ..  4. 1972. Kenneth Wright, ah.. Secretary. Ah .. Mr . Speaker - I am directed to inform the House of Representatives that the Senate has concurred with the House in the passage of Bills of the following title: House Bill 2385. 2396: 2397. 2562. 2563. 2564, 2565, 3741, 4268, 4322, 4323, 4337, 4476. 4603. Passed by the Senate, June 1972. Kenneth Wright. Secretary. Mr. Speaker - I am directed to inform the House of Representative: that the Senate has passed a Bill of the following title in the passage of which I am instructed to ask concurrenee of the Hobuse : Senate Bill 1459. Passed the Senate, Jkne 6, 1972. Kenneth Wright, Secrekary. Mr. Speaker I am directed to inform the House of Representa- tives that the Senate has passed Bills of the followipg title in the passage of which I am instructed to ask eon- currence of the House: Senate Bill 1t00, 14Dl, 1465/ 1505. 1583, 1589: 1593, 1597. Passed the Senate, June 6: 1972. Kenneth Wright, Seeretary. Mr. Speaker - I am directed to inform the House of Representatives that the Senate has passed Bills of the following title'in the passage of which I am instructed to ask eoncurrence of the House. Senate Bill 1323, 1394, 1397, 1410, 1425, 1476, 1569. 1571. 1587, 1603. Passed the Senate, June 7, 1972. Kenneth Wright, Secretary.'' Hon. Robert Blair: ''Committee Reportsv'' Fredric B. Selcke: ''Mr. Randolph, from the Committee on Revenu , to which House Bill 4681 was referred, reported the same back with the recommendation that the Bill do pass. Mr. .N yJo!s ..'-'' ! . ..1-*v'y'.t.'.l'. ( 7-. G E N E R A L A SSE'511$LY 14(: -st..?s)t .i svavs oeIuulNol s ' (t '/ = E ' eouscoFscesssss' rA. ' rIves lciz'. *.''  ' 5 Randolph, frot the Committee on Revenue, to which Senate Bills 841. 1440, 1445, 1577. 1578, 1579 and 1580 were referr d, ' reported the same back with the recommendation that the Bills do pass. No further... No further Committee Reports.' Hon . W . Robert Blair: ''Alright.. House Bills Second Reading. 4656.'' Fredric B. Selcke: ''House Bill 4656, a Bill for an Act in rela tion to the transfer of functions from the Auditor of Public Accounts to the State comptroller. Slcond Reading 'of the Bill. No Committee Amendments.'' Hon. W. Robert Blair: ''Any Amendments from the floor? Third Reading. 4657.'' Fredric B. Selcke : ''House Bill 4657, a Bill for an Act .to'amen sections 1, 2. R, 4 and 5 oè the Title of an Act that pro- vides Law in relation to the Auditor of Public Accounts. Second .Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments-'' Hon. W . Robert Blairz ''Any Amendments from the floor? Third Reading .A 4658.'. . Fredric B. Selcke: ''House Bill 4658, an Act relating to the State comptroller. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committe Amendments-'' Hon. W . Robert Blair : ''Any Amendments from the floor? Third Reading . 4659.'. Fredric B. Selcke: ''House Bill 4659, a Bill for an Act to amen 'The Coal Mining Act '. Second Reading of the Bill. No Committee Amendments.'' ' Hon. W . Robert Blair: ''Any Amendments from the floor? Third ''.s x& )'(A-'. >. 'x'$j. . ,..$* G EN E R A L A SS EM BL Y L.'I j ç'p . i's,,.' J -' a, . k. 'TCpa' u-c .q t) -*' * 'z ' svavcoe1uu1sf o1 s H0tlSE O F RCPRCSC11TAT1V CS ' T-d .. 1.J'''''. . .- .. ......---.-. --  . 6. Reading. The ah .. gentleman from Cook . Mr. Hyde-'' H. J. Hyde: ''Ah.. Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, ah .. so that we might ah .o.save some timee... so 'that we might save some time and ah.. move along on the Calendar, ah .. it is proposed that I will move to suspend Rule 46 ah .. so that ah .. those Bills on the Calendar, listed as Second Reading - First Legislative Day, may have the status of Second Reading U Second Legislative Day. In other words, they may be considered as though they had passed the First segiszative say and were on secona Reaaing for the purposes of Amendments. Ah.. this will help us ah.. ah .. move along on our Calendar. And so, Mr. Speaker, I now move that the provisions of Rule'46 be suspended for the purpose cf con- sidering :ll Bills on Second Reading - First Legislative Day as though they were Second Reading Second Legislative DZY .'' Hon. W . Robert Blair: ''The gentlemah from Cook , Mr. Shea '' G. W . shea : ''Mr. Speaker. is that b0th Senate and House Bills .A k or is that provision only being walved with regards to House Bills?'' Hon. W . Robert Blair: ''House . Bills. Alrigit.. Is there leave ko have that done? Hearing no oblection, then the provision ' of Rule 46 will be waived. And, those Bills now will be con sidered on the order of Second Reading and we will be addres - ing ourselves to them as we move along . Alright.. We'll go to the order of ah .. Congurrences. House Bill 260. The ' gentleman from cook, Mr. william Walsh /'' lxq*-fx;A'#.;*z ','! ?. ,''--.k. G E N E R A L A SSE M 8 LY I j'. j 2./( j 'J.. . .%, y'' .. t ) svxvsos1uul sojs ' C?'' * x'.. w.-Y U-I;q. House:o e'Rcr'ae;scN'rA. 'r,vcs . ::o; ' ' 7 W . D. Walsh: ''Mr. Speaker. Ladies and .Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 260 was amended in the Senate to.provide for a situation in the Morton Junior College District in Cook Coun y so that they eould qualify for State Building Assistance. The Bill simply provides thatp instead of having 2,000 full- time enrôllment, that they have 2,000 full-time equivalent enrqllment in order to qualify for this. As far as I know : the only Junior College District affected is Morton. And, ' Morton is locked into .a situation where they ah .. the practi cal matter can't expand and can't get more enrollment than ah.. ah .. about the ah.. ah .. 2,000 full-time equivalent tha they have. And, i urge that the House concur with ah.. Sena e Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 260.'' Hon. W . Robert Blair w ''Is there discussion? The qùestion is on the gentleman's moticn that the House concur in Senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 260. All those in favor will vote 'aye'# and the opposed 'no'.. 'Have all voted who wished The Clerk will take the record. Davis.. 'aye'. On this .-e' ' question, there are l2l 'Ayes '. and no 'Nays' and this Bill having received the Constitutional.... and this Amendment having received the Constitutional majority is hereby con- curred in. Mannl.iayp'. 774 . The gentleman from Lakâ. Mr . Pierce, on Concurrence. senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 774.'' D. M. Pierce: ''Ah.. Mr. Speaker, ah .. the ah .. the Senate . sponsor hasn't given me the Amendments/ Will you take it ou of the record one minute, please, while I check a'' ,;0h:.-;*#r. a.' . .. t.):,'m>e-ï G E N E R A L A S S E M 1)L Y jk , çc .v l..,,,.,i *j u s' ra' re:oe'1LL1sjojs .(sx ç?.. 2 ..v./2. M ok'SIt Q F REPR ESENTATlVCS f!'t.)' '. .',.!.. *' '' %.. '*  8. Hon. W . Robert Blair: 'They just move up the effective date. so..... The gentleman from Lake, Mr. Pierce .'' D. M. Pierce : ''Mr. Speaker. having ah.. thoroughly studied thi Amendment, I see it is technical in nature. Ande thereforee ah .. I move that the House concur ah .. with ah .. Senake Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 774.'' Hon. W. Robert Blair: ''Any discussion? The question is on the concurrence of the House in Senate Amendment No . 1, to House Bill 774. The gentleman from Cook : Mr. Simmons.'' A . E. Simmons: ''Would the Sponsor tell us what the effeetive date will be on the new Amendment?'' i . D. M . Pierce: ''AK.. Ah .. Mr. Simmons, ah.. Section 11 makes the effective date October 1972. And, it applies to the estates of decedents dying on or after that date. 'The Senat Amendment added a sectiun No. 2 to the Bill creating tAe ' effective date of October 1, 1972. That 's the standard . effective date-'' A. E. Simmons: -i' ''Thank you .'' r Hon. W . Robert Blair: ''The question is. lshall the House con- cur in Senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 775..4?4. A1l' those in favor will vote 'aye'' . and the opposed 'no'. Have . all voted who wished? The Clerk will take the record. Maragos.. 'aye'. l33 'Ayes' and no lNaysl and the'House con ' curs in Senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 774. House Bill 775. The gentleman from Lake, Mr. Pierce.'' M. Pierce: 'Ah.. Mr. Speaker, Houie Bill 775 is a companion to House Bill I'.m glad to seenthis Bill over here be- '/.':-; 2A ...ow%A' .I ...h w. c s x E R A L A s s E M j3 L,Y 4J $ï z %' t . ' '(,....-..v...:. . . t j1 ' svxxsos,uu,, qo,s N.1.c'.G6 x....) ..-.%. j . jousso..r ,spsssssvxv,vcs  9 cause the last thing I knew, was tabled in the Senate on May 4th# 1972. But. it was restored to the Calendar last ' week and the Senate had passed without my knowledge. So. I'm very happy today to find it here. Al1 Amendment No. 1 does, Senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 775. is establis a section 11 creating the standard effective date of October 1. 1972. And. I move. therefpre, that the House concur in Senate Amendment No . 1, to House Bill 775..' Hon. W. Robert Blair: ''Alright.. Is thère discussion? The ' question is on the gentleman's motion to concpr. A1l those in favor will vote 'ayel, and the opposed 'no '. Have al1 voted who wished? The Clerk will take the record. On this question, there are l34 'Ayes' and no 'Nays' and this Bill... and the House concurs in Senate Amendment No. to House Bill 775. 1467. The gentleman from Whiteside, Mr. Miller.'' K. W . Miller: ''Mr. Speaker and ah .. Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, with regard to House Bill 146... 1467, the Senate added on> Amendment. Al1 this Amendment does is to change the effective date from December 31st, 1971 to a new effec- tive date of October 1st: 1972. Very similar to the last two Bills that Representative Pierce had. And, Mr. Speaker, I move that the House concur in Amendment No. 1... Senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 1467.1, ' Hon. W . Robert Blair : ''The gentleman from Franklin, Mr . Hart.'' Hart: '' Ah.. would the Sponsor explain his Bill? I'm jus looking at the Digest and it refers to 'sureties'. Now, what sureties are referred to? The sureties on his personal ?J:-'7-z, ' /.. ?zx i 2:. G E N E 11A L A SSE M B L Y ' i:y..:,$..C. h, ï **(*. . ''nl ..''. J -'J Motlss Er)v C- Eu RI EPs cj2o F. Su El a No TAl s TlVf:S '... .s+%* ' w. @ ' ' l0. bonds or sureties on a claim?'' K. W . Miller : ''No . It 's the.. The Bill is very simple. 'When ever the principal maker of any note, bond, or bill or other instrument of writing shall die, if the creditor shall not within six months after the granting of a letter present the same to a Court for allowancd. That is the Bil1.H R. 0 . Hart: ''so. it would be sureties on .the ah .. on the obli- gation, not on the personal representatives?'' K. W . Miller: ''Right.. Righto.'' R. 0 . Hart: ''Thank you e'' Hon . W : Rober Blair: nFurther discussion? The question is on the gentleman ls motion to concur in Senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 1467. All those in favor will vote 'aye ', 'and the opposed 'no'. Have all voted who wished? The Clerk will take the record . Campbell.. 'aye'. House Bill 14... On this question, there are'133 'Ayes ' and no 'Nays' and i 1 the House concurs in senate Amenument No. to House Bill ' 1467. 14684 the gentleman from Whiteside. Mr. Miller.'' .--e ' K. W . Miller: ''Well, Mr . Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. Senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 1468. is an identical Amendment with respect to changing the effective date to October 'lst, .l972 rather than December 31st, 1971, as the Bill passed the House. And, Mr. Speaker, I move that the House concur in Senate Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 1468 .'' ' Hon. w . Robert Blair: ''Is there discussio'n? The question is o the gentleman 's motion to concur in Senate Amendment No. 1. ,.j$. i' f..7 'x> 4! '*'.u. :Jx J?,Q' : ?% J r# -. , 7> Ntyr .h 1 GENERAL ASSEMBLY .ç. *' (. t Je.?. n ''-z) .g , uowssxv cx op-s r:o ce sloajs ucj cu aj p. s -v vIwes #tr):;;r;i%ss+ '  ' 1). to House Bill 1468 . A11 those in favor will vote 'aye', and the opposed 'no'. Have all voted who wished? The Cler will take the record. On this questione there are l44 'Ayes', and no 'Nays' and the House concurs in Senate Amendment No. , to House Bill 1468. House Bill 1469. The gentleman froi Whiteside, Mr. Miller. '' K. W. Miller: '%Well, Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, with respect to House Bill 1469 Senate Amendment &o , . l does exactly the same thing as they did on the p revious two Bills. In other words: the effective date is changed to October 1st, 1972. And, Mr. Speaker, I move that the House concur in Senate'Amendment No. 1, to House Bill 1469. '' Hon. W. Robert Blair: ''Is there discussion? The question is on the gentleman 's motion tç concur in senate Amendient No. , to House Bill 1469. All .those in favor will vote 'ayel', and the opposed 'no '.On this question, there are. . . or, take the record. On this question, there are l4l 'Ayes', and no 'Nays ' and the House concurs in Senate Amendment N'o. to .A House Biil 1469. Now, in aocordance with the previous annou ce- ment of some two days ago , the House will recess to a Commit tee of the Whole House as indicated on Page 2 of the Calenda ah .. concerning House Bill 4680. And, I ah .. appoint as Chairman of the Committee of the Whole. Representative Randolph. Ah.. it's anticipated that ah. . the Committee of the Whole will last ah. . not longer than one hour. And, we will be going right back into Sessio'n as soon as the Committ .a of the Whole on this Bill is concludcd. The gentleman from 1.3ïvrpa9k :. G E N E R A L A SSE 518 L Y j' k'.- . Ih Vi ' ' ,1. , . jr 1 ,j ; l. . j ,7 . , p ! . .:. s. j ).s , sxxv.s.e.,uu,osqs,s sokls: oF acepEscNTA'r1ve:s '!r''te.., :  l2. Union, Mr. choate e '' C. L. Choate : ''Mr . Speaker, I would like to advise the M embers on this side of the aisle that I have consulted with the Speaker and immediately after the Committee of the Whole . is adjourned and the House comes back into Session, there will be a oemocratic Conference . so, I would ask you to be prompt in returning to the floor of the House after the committee Meeting of the Whole' if you 're not in attendance at that Committee Meeting. '' Hon. W. Robert Blair: ''' fhe gentlemaq from Cook , Mr. Randolph '' . RECESS AT 11:03 O 'CLOCK A .M . ?rc$k 'ij' .g** ' 77ee 75 ,L G E N ER A L A SSE 51B t, I; y< . i$ : (' %e.a) Y $ sxa,xs og :u.s$j. ,sojs . t' Vd(Z '? .. /.' . &e&' : r '.- v Wf.' . '. ''. HOL1Gf O 6 F4CPRKSCMYAYtV CC;  HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SEVENTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY 0NE HUNDRED FORTY-EIGHTH LEGISLATIVE DAY ' JUNE 8, 1972 REPRESENTATIVE PAUL J. RANDOLPH, CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE l %%q.; 'ozt.yb :Agyx .l ' .:r 4.'e.X G E N E R A L A S S E 51B L Y 1 IX zjr. .!, uu tJ9J1-î) ,. ( svxvsoc'uutso's * /8 =''@! Hotzsc oe Ge:ervIzscNTATlue:s 1'. %:...%s%*'' ' Paul J. Randolph : ''The ah .the Ccmmittee of the. Whole will 'please come to order . We have before the. . .we have before us House Bill 4680 which amends 'The Revenue Act ', and limits the amount of taxes to be extended in 1973 and 1974 for each purpose or fund to amount extended in 1972 , provides for a certain extension. Mr. Shea.'' Gerald W . shea: ''Mr. Chairman, I'm wcndering if you could make sure that copies of the bills are distributed to the members for the. .to the best of my knowledge , we do not have copies of the bi1l.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah# they are printed copies available and * 1 have asked the page to distribute these copies to members on the floor. Mr. C. L. Mccormick , you may prcceed-'' C. L. Mccormiek : ''Mr. .'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Lechowicz . '' Thaddeus S . Lechowicz : ''Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I was hopin I could have a little crder to give to the sponsor of the bill thq-.proper courtesy so we can hear the explanation of this bill and ask any questions if necessary. '' Paul J. Randolph: ''May we have order, please. W ill the door- keeper please see that the House is and everything is quiet a and everything is in order, Mr. Mccormick, .you may proceed.' C. L. Mccormick : ''Mr. Chairman and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, House Bill 4680 is a verk vital and important bill to every individual that owns property or owns any- . thing in the state of Illinois . I would appreciate very much if you would get y'our bills out and if we could dis- .. s. '. ; .... . )'- ; .. t t :. - $.;,' h r k ' ,? . ''-coeN ,;. : jr ï G E N E R A L A SSE M B L Y .' ë) 'iC %.. , .1 sva- rcoetuute xo,s .. * v4 4J' . : */ h n z.j' r' - .w . ' .' .$e*e ' ' .,ous. sosacer.sse:,.v.vIvss  cuss iè for a few minutes here this morning and possibly possibly we ean do something for the people in the State of ' Illinois. . Paul J. Randolph : f'Ah # Mr. Mccormick, just a second. Mr. XZY *'' Robert E. Day: f'Nowy Mr . Chairman, a point of parliamentary inquiry . I can 't find a copy of this bill on my desk . I wonder, have they been put in the books or are they in the stack of papers that are on our desk?'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah they have page sent for the bill and they are supposed to be . C. L. Mccormick : ''The bills were distributed last, I believe the last of the week, or at least I had them on my desk Monday, but maybe they dve been destrpyed. '' Paul J. Randolph : ''The pages are supposed to be distributing the bills.'' C . L. Mccormick : ''Well may I go ahead and make a prelimina ry remark wyile you're waiting for your bills? No amendments yet. now, Mr. Chairman, first of all, I want to thank everyone in the Hcuse, that put their name on this bill as a co-sponsor. I especially want to thank Representative Epton, back here, because he helpéd me very much . I guess you 'd call him my backdoor legal advisor back here. I appreciate MauriceScott on the Taxpayers Federation for further help and I appreciate Representative Choate and his co-sponsorship of this biq l and al1 of the rest of you people that sponsored it. Nowe as you know, the pecple in : vs%x . à.; .j LArljt.. e. r' ?'2. ,%' .: .1 .O ' h ) G CN E R A L A Ss jyM j;j .y $.q%k . /4' k., ,r k...k'1 . :? sxwx.oe-luuI sot s Ns,., . ..+ aousc o e aseacscsvxvlvcs .  Illinois are very disturbed about property taxes. In the north end or the state. you have organizations like Tax for the City Federation that are pressuring for lower taxes Downstate, we have our farmers organizations which our storekeepers. our individual hcme owners that are talking about the increase in real estate taxes. I have letter from Peoria, where a lady and her husband said that they ' had retired some years ago and in the last four years, thei taxes on their home has gone frcm $456.00 to $665.00 in this period of time. Now, every administration, whether it be ' Democrat or Republican , in the past has tried to do something about the tax structure in Illinois. If you re- member, and Representative Choate specifically rqmembers, because he was in the leadership at that time, Governor Strattcn come with a proposition to increase the sales tax and give a portion cf the tax to the municipalities. remember very well what Representative Powell, Paul'Powel said at that.time . It took a long time for those people to go along with it because they didn't have any assurance that it'd do anything for the real estate tax payer in 111- . inois and they were assured by the Munieipal League and by the Maycrs of the State of Illinois that this money would be used to at least level off and hol'd real estate taxes at where they werefr And everybody that knows anything about taxes in this Htnuse kncws that every ye4r thereafter , it iame up# that GoNzernor'Kerner came in and increased the sales tax and tku distributions in the State, but each and - -- . ' 'we. a' J4, .8 -:kï, 7rn%)j ..G E N E R A L A SSE M B LY ' (g.7 * : s1( A ., .y1 svx. x' p:op z9uu1 ?. Io1s . *4.X '''' f ' . :P ' ' Hot)SE oF R*:PF?CS17NTA.T1Vb:S h z' f;. .&w  every time he thought he was holding the line, but each and every time the real estates taxes went up and up and up. Governor Ogilvie comes in before the legislature and the people of Illinois and he comes before us with a with a bi-partisan recommendation on the income tax and we put it on and we distribute back what one-twelfth of the money, I guess I know too darn much'abcui this bill, Clyde, don't ' you? Al1 right. Ncw, just talk that fast down home and I jùst can't make any difference when I get up here. But it's the people down home that we're trying tè help, right?' Voice: ''You're in the city .'' Clyde L. Choate: ''Right.'' C. L. Mccormick: 'fAl1 right. Besides, fellows, not just a city m/n, I'm just a country boy. .But anyway. .anyway what I'm trying to get at is each and every time we in the General Assembly and the administration, whether it be Dem- ocrat or Republican, has tried to help people on the real estate .tax level, it has been a lmost a back fire. because each and every time local government, they use the money. I'm not saying it isn't for needed improvement, but each and every time you give a 'dollar more , they need a dollar and a half more. And each dnd every time it is availab le from some other source, they just add it on to the real estate. Now, whenever you get in Illinois where it is not even profitable for you to own real estate, where you can 't even afford to own your own hcme because of the cost of the taxes on it, then it 's time that we in the General . .ë%%t :El 't .. ?t ' ) . a ' t)'-> !* - G E N E ltA L A SSE 51BL Y iv .:.:; :; .: ; 1-h, sx.vs .e.,uurxo ys . jhX V na '.'t* e1ouSe:oF REPREsEM' FAT1Vus  Assembly that are supposed to be representing each. and evqry person in Illinois 'and not any particular qroup or section of the state, do something about it. Now , it takes three different segments of this state to do anything about it. It takes this House of Representatives, takes the Senate and it takes the Governor of the State of Illinois, and I wculd like to ah tell you about this.bill. This bill now, 4680. after January the lste 1973 and until January the 1st, 1975, no county clerk shall extend the property tax levy by a unit of local government or school districts in the amount th4t legally extended for the year 1972. Now , we have some limitations. They're the minimum qualify ing rates are eliminated from it. The rates such as the Illinois Municipal League Rebirement Fund is nct limited by statute is exempted from it. I believe, for instance in Sangamon County where they didn't extend the rate in 1972, because they had extra money, they were exempted, because they might have to extend it. This bill, I thinke needs some refinement, and I'm not goihg to tell you it doesn 't and I want to tell you that we 'll consider anything that it needs to make it a real freeze on taxes in the State of ' Illinois. Now, I would like also tc read a. statement here that I received just a few minutes ago. This is a statemen of Governor Richard B. Ogilvie in sùpport of House Bill 4680, to 'froeze property tax exemption. Since 1969, khis 'administration has been dedicated to the reform of tax structure in the State of Illinois. Our objective has been , s:.''. . .zx : -b4S* 'i 7' . rV >'e. Nr G E N E R A L A SSE 51B L Y /êQ t ft'xt. -/ k1,l . *.%' . sTA' . lLLIPIOls re:OF ',C' l.g ...: '.' ..'. HovsE:olrrze:elvesp:NTA.'r1vEs  to ease 'the enormous burdens imposed, b0th by real property and personal property taxes. The income tax was a neces- sary step. I did not recommend this because it was an easy or popular expedient. Irecommended the income tax because' it was absolutely necessary as the first step towards a more equitable distribution of the tax burdens on the people of Illinois. With the ,monies generated by the incom . tax , we have only improved state services, but also increas d dramatically the contributions of staie government to local ' and higher education. mental health, 1aw enforçement, and other vital activities of government. At the same time, we have virtually eliminated the personal property tax cn most individuals by exemption cf one household of furnis' h- ings and one automobile. In the ccming days, it is my hope that the General Assembly will adopt a recommendation to the ldministration and exempt al1 farm machinery, equip- ment and inventory from the personal prcperty tax roll. Meanwhile, I have urged the United States Supreme Court to reverse our Illinois Supreme Court and abolish a11 personal property taxes. Paul J. Randolph : ''Just a second, Mr. Mccormick .'' C. Mccormick : ''Yes, sir.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Representative B. B. Wolfe-'' Bernard B. Wolfe: ''Ah # Mr. Chairman, point of order. I thought we were discussing House Bill 4680, that's not the program of the administration for the last three years. .' C. L. Mccormick: ''Well, .- Ar> ' x<*)tl'e>'x se1 kr ) ' j'-7 .- >'tX G E N E R A L A SSE M B LY (qox .. , ..,4(, 'j) . sw,.vcoc,uuI, uoIs ky g/ . . ,'.r-....' souscoeaspncssNvA. v1vcs  Paul Randolph: ''The gentleman may proceed . '' L . Mccormick : .During this administration, I'm getting to that. it takes couple of words, you know, Representa- tive Wolfe, you know , you 're used to wqrds, too. During this administration we have returned to local governments in Illinois the sum of $536 million. This is in addition to the new fundihg that we have provided for our local schools which will total $' 3,799,000,000.00. Our objections our objections have beqn to make possible to reduce the real estate tax levy on the home owners of this state . And here's what I'm getting to . This has not occurred. This has not occurred. In fact , the real property levies have been increasing at such a rate that the burden on individual bome owners is becoming intolerable. We can not delay any longer. We should act stop the consistent increase i.n real estate taxes accordingly . I recommend that the Gendral Assembly of Illinois enact House Bill 4680 represented by . nepresentative Mccormick . This will prohibit an increase by any local qovernment, except in isolated emergency situa- tions. This will freezq real estate tax levies at the present levels. I realize that the bill represents a new concept. I realize that its constitutionality must be tested and I urge the General Assemb ky to work closely w ith the Attorney General. realize that there are problems in its application due to unforeseen circumstances and un- usual situations. The sponsor has taken a count of four of these things. There will be equal opportunities . Now, this . : A!. ' 'Nt ' . .y.J . '/4:.zx t ' l'ui' . s ):&q- ,tr >'- ) GEN ERA L A SSEM BLY t. -.' . .# e.; j.n'.? m...ù.) N v' ' roA. s' v scevIuu1soIs ?'.;t,ni.,.%v%* Ixousc .ncervs:sssv.a.vlvss  is the key . There will be equal opportunities in the session and in future sessions later this year and next to handle any special problems that may arise. However, I am convinced that we must act and act now to put a stop to the rise in the property taxes. Passage of this bill is the first step . Now , I want you to know that I appreciate what George Dunne: the President of the County Board, has done 1 'in regard tc this county general levye I appreciate very much what the Mayor has done in his three per cent. I be- lieve it is three per cent, am I right. ah, well, whatever it At any ratq, it 's reduction in real estate taxes, so whenever the Mayor of the City of Chicago, the President of the largest county in the state ok Illincis and the Governor of the State of Illinois all agree that there has got to be something done about the rising tax on real estat in the state of Illinois, I don't see how this legislature can fail to act. Now. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ihtro- duce Representative Epton, who worked very closely with me on this bi11.'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Ah Representative Epton, co-sponsor.'' Bernard E. Epton: $'MI. Speaker. Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Tipsword.'' Rolland F . Tipsword : ''Mr. .n Paul Randolph : ''Mr. Mecormick will return and be here for questions, so is that a1l right? Jack.'' John Jercme Hil1: ''Ah, Mb. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, I don't want to talk , I want to ask a ques- ;sk;$ . '. : (-, 'f % r t. GENE11AL ASSEM BLY k*f q 4V y. . $h*.f , %.'GJ ' * ' s qo. rsoc'uu'' rx' s' HoklsE OF'RCPF'C:GEè4TA.Y'1%/ES %:l'ç.v.I.&.x. . .  tion-'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah, may .we hear from Mr. Epton and then 1111 get back to ycu.'' John Jerome Hill: ''Wel1, I think Mr. Mccormick was allowed to make a statement and I'd like to make one, too. It 's not prepared, but it 's relative to what he 's talking'about and . .'' Paul J. Randolph: ''All right; proceed.'' John Jerome Hi11: ''I would like to say a few words.'' Paul Randclph : ''Proceed.'' John Jerome Hil1: ''Now , Mr. Mcccrmick , am a co-sponsor of ' your piece of legislation. I think it's a very good piece of legislation. But then you quote a statement by Governor Ogilvie and I'd like to point out to you that even though hels saying that a1l theée things are happening now, when the income tax bill was adopted in the State of Illinoisy' is when Governor Ogilvie should have put in that tax bill some rebating of property tax in our individual districts and at that time when the income tax bill passed, we were not allcwed to amend that bill and I'd like to point that out to you, because , we were allowed to amend that bill# I 'm sure that there would have been some rebate going to the local property tax payer. Now , for three years, these property tax payers have bem paying a big burden of taxes, not only on the local level but on the state level. And if Ogilvie would have spoke up then, this would not have occur ' red for the last three 'years. And I jm real happy that he ; . 3.x%*M-!*P:'fAl.. .. ! 1 l ,/C 5 l è -t:' l'( .'n o ;'z '* $r ''1L ' G EN ERA L A SSEM BLY : tG ( j x. A r '... , - nw my. 'y .2l : ?e'ut rct ' r>. s' .1No1 s I4otlsEo!rREPRESE'Ia.avjuss . i 5*7.-:1f,' e..&.%.  has now become enlightened and has taken a side that I have stood for a11 of these years. Thank you .'' Paul Randolph : '''Thank you, Representative Hill.'' C . L. Mcccrmick : ''There is no question abcut what you are saying except it has been the policy of every Governor, whether he is a Democrat or Republican, to leave this OP6R *î' Paul Randolph : nAh # Mr. Epton.'' Bernard E. Epton : ''Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Merlters cf the House. I don 't think it's necessary for any of us to be- labor any parts and aspects of this bill. Certainly none is intended. think that evrryone on 10th sides of the aisle, as evidenced by the co-sponsorship wculd indicate that this is something we're al1 in favor of. The fact that some individual municipalities have seen fit to curr tail some of their expenditurds is.just not enough for the State of Illinois. Good intentions have led us down the wrong path for so many many years and it's to C. L. Mccor- mick's credit that he took it upon himself to produce this bill. I don't think there are quite as many faults in it as C.L. would indicate. Obviously we are cpen to sugges- tions to amend this. Buf the fact is that we do have pro- vision for at least four of the majoâ possibilities. I would simply refer to perhaps the only editorial or comment I see in opposition to this bill. I th.iék that that was ' . perhaps misunderstood by the editorial writer which some- times, unfortunately. happens so frequently . The fact is ''' bl:jk'lrn''r G E N E R A L A SSE M B L Y (itrr..:y ' t . . ,yt . z ' j sxav.:.gIuu,.,.1s k:1?. (.';i..1... .. , Th.''x*'' uowscosnsensssxvAvlvcs  that in every instance, we have made provisions fo'r adeq- uate funds to be provided, based on the previous'budget of the municipality in question. think there's nothing wrong for the State of Illinois through its legislature to state to its municipalities that you must live within your budget. This is what we're asking certainly for at least two years. In that period of two years, i't will give us an opportunity to reevaluate, to understand the aspects of the legislation of the litigation concerning our financing of school districts. I would plea with a11 the members of the House to our 'quite confident as many of us here, to ' read this bill, to read it again, to see that it is very simple on its face and I join C. Mccormick and h$s co- sponsors in asking that you vote for the passage of this bill. Thank you.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Wil1 you ah kindly keep the noise downe so we cane ah thank you . Mr. Maragos. Just a minute, Mr. ah i' Samuel C . Maragos: ''Mr. Speaker and Members of the 'Committee and ah I would like at this time to ask leave of the co- ' sponsors, the main co-sponsor of this legislatione some questions regarding same. First of all, kee that this amends section 162 of 'The Revenue Act ' dealing with real estate tax assessment, which is really 643 as expended and 6- ah, Section 643 on 'The Revenue C' ode' Chapter l20 has to do with real estate property assepsment. Do you want to bring your expert along? I 'd be glad to talk to Maurie Scott, xx%I t.... -) '('-,>Vc G EN E ltA L A S SEM B t,Y .o* . ; ' j zrï $ ; k o<: l ,.. s.. . ,;. j X- . rco.,rluu1p svA. ' .oI s k..*4?.-'... . sousc orr 1vueasss:'g'r-.w.,v.s..s... .. . ... .... . .. . .  . h too . My question is this. It says here that the deter- mination to be made by this bill says that the county clerk and you have to put on the county clerk as extended and Mr . Scott, if you want to answer for the gentleman , it is fine with me-'' Bernard E. Epton: HMr. Chairman . Samuel Maragos: ''What will you please define for the members of the committee what you mean by the term exten- sion. What I personally know . but I think that it should be made clear that I want to ask the following questions aftbr that-n Paul J . Randolph : ''The first witness is Mr. Maurie W . Scott. Tax Payers Association of Illinois.'' Maurie w . scott: '' Mr. Maragos and Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. In answer to Representative Maragos' question, section 162 as it ks ncF provides the limitation on the county clerk in extending levies. In other w'ords, the County .clerk when he gets ready to extend and have the total aggregate evaluation will take and reach in his drawer and pull out a levy. 'And let 's say the levy .for the general fund of the City of Springfield. He will divide that. you see, by the total aggregate evaluation and get a rate and then he says, wait just a Minute, is that subject to a rate limitation? And if it is and this division is over that, he 'd have to skin it down apd extend a tax a- 'gainst your property equivalent to the rate lim it times its evaluation.n ;.y.%%Vàalh.$-y.-* ' 4,' , . .t / 2 ; )tx r u. L..,,e. ;:., jgï c E x E R A t. A ss EM Bj-v . j.X .V '4@?T' t''j .'. - s' ra. ' ruoF'IuuINo1s . $tI. .%+x* 14otasE oF rêCPREsENYATIVES  . f - U' . . =- . . 6 ' ' '% ' Samual C. Maraçps: ''I'm aware of the process of extending. ' 51.1.'. Ea(31't , but is there a proper definition 'for the word ' extension in the .statute. I don 't remember if there is or not and I'm psking if t%ere is when we use the word extend- ing .'' Maurie w . scott: ' 'There is no definition in 'The Revenue code ' of the word extension, but by case 1aw there is .'' satuu-l c. Marago's : ''Al1 right, now, the reason that I 'm ' (y.. !,. bringing that up and there's nothing in this act that ' 17revents the 'Department of Loca 1 Government Affairs from incre'asing equaliiation factors and in fact later on some * . later on comcs inter play and still increases the tax bill ' and not doing the job that we intended to do under this bill, is that correct?'' Mau/ie W. scott: 'No. I couldn't quite agree with that, Re- presentative Maragos, for the zimple reason we do have the ' legislation that the 1egislature p 'assed that says that the Department of R'evenue will issue annual multipliers , like the beginning of the Butler bills and that can increase, . but if a multiplier in your county or my county under this . provision would increase fifty times, it couldn't automatic ally increase taxes be'cause the coùnty clerk in extending . a levy outside these exemptions would be limited to the I '' : ., I . extension he acade for that fund last year.'' . I . samuel C. Maragos: ''But the point, . . .I'm not saying, but , 'is there any limitatién on the Department of Local Govern- * . j ment Affairs 'tzould not extend the equalizaticn factor for . ! r '. -71t zy: tz . .. ' - ' (ê- . :' . . -bç. , é. ) .'.j @. , ($' . , v, . > ' ' ... yjoussvxvsos.j EoF'REeRj uujojojsVES :scNTATI ltf;v' n ,,..&.'%* . .. -- ' .-.-.- . -. . j  them not to extend, there 's nothing in the statute that says ihey can not do it.. That's what I'm askinge after the extension is made. Mlurie W . Scott: ''Well# . . .'' Samuel C. Maragos: '% . .by the county clerk or the county officials. what limitation is on the Department of Lbcal Government Affair's to do this to not to increase the. Maurie W . Scott: 1'Well, no matter if they increase their value, it will not effect the extension of the county clerk for two years if you would pass this. If a million dollars were extended, the legal maximum extension for the city carpet fund in Springfield for last year, they are stuck for one million dollars for the next two extensions. so you see, increasing the èvaluation and so forth would not effect that.'' Samuel C. Maragos: 'IExcepting though, isn 't it mandatory th'at theydve got to take the equalization factor into account in any os their ' extension p/ocess, that's question I'm bringing back to you .'' Maurie W . Scott: ''Ah, if you did not have this legislatione Ahe answer would be yes. But for 'two years they would go ahead with the equalizations and so forth , but when you go to the extensionsy your limit would do it.'' Samuel C. Maragos: HNow, dne other question, Idm going to get another question on the floor. Ah. are there any other tax, could you give me an examples what the exemptions are and limitations which kill not be applicable under this act ' .:;. .. :- ar . x%%;1 >.ez js? i' Ft k.) V , .' t ;, )7 ,R .>r*' Yj t ' GENESRT'XAN'ZLC>6A't-S SEM BLY # X ' .'' $1:g.,...r . L'':2P'S Houls'e:oFIRe:eRIzse.;N'rA'r1wE:s ' where a county bady would come into . would you please . explain this tc me-'' Maurie W . Scott: ''Mr. Maragos, if I may, ah, I would like to tell you that I had a telephone call this morning from a taxpayer in this county with a tax bill on his home that had risen from somewhere around $800.00 to $1:250.00, on a home that is lorth $36,000.00, he paid $18, 000.00. his - comment to me was this. It seems like we , the legislature and 'the Taxpayers Federation, kno's more about taxing leg- islation as he said to treat alligator bites t'han we do in limiting property taxes from rising . So, that is the pur- pose of this bill. Now. let me point out the exemptions and examples, I may . '' Paul J. Randolph : ''Would you make your'statement at this time, Mr. Scott, and then we'll come back to the questions.' Maurie W . Scott: ''Al1 right. My statement is going to be mostly the exemptions. Number One, this limitation would not appl# on any tax for which a minimum qualifying rate is prescribed to estab lish eligibility to receive state drafts. As you know at the present timee dm l school dis- tricts must levy .87/ most of them to get state grants for from the state on the equalization program . Ah school districts and elementary districts and a separate high school district. Unit districts must levy $1. 08. Road districts must levy B/ per $100.00 evaluation to get state grants and motor fuel. Ah townships and certain count , ' y and city must levy l0/ per $100.00 to general assistance :ies; :. ,, d ..?' '.i , ('7--hTe'' G E N E 11A L A S S E M 8 L Y *>l ,i vn:.;; . : ..t' % ) s *1otlSEv0wxFsRoCF'e.R,EuSqE.1e.:,'orA.,sTIV ES . $?V?.. %'.4,' . z .$.... '%v . ..--.... . ------. .. ... . ' ! aid. Counties and hospital districts may levy 5/ to get ! T.B. aid. Now, these will not be affected. t If the evalu- t ations go down .or whatever .. happens e them , you may still ; levy these qualifying rates to get the state aid. That ! was done in the Butler bill. Number two, any tax which is ! not subject to limitation that specific statutes applicable : to 'it. I can think of only two at the present time . For I i . l nstance when a .generai obligation bond issue is voted and $ l I the bonds are iksued, ' a schedule is filed with the county ' clerk and he reaches in the drawer and he says for that issue I must extend so many thousand or hundred dollars 1 11 this year. That wou ld not be affected. Ah, anather one h would be as the spcnsor said the Illinois Municipal Retire- ' l ment Fund for a few years ago. a few years ago the rate I ' I limitation was taken out of that statute, so the state (' ; tells the local government w.hat its ob1' gation Number I . Three, taxes of units of local governments and school dis- j tricts t .Aeat 'ed after December 3l,1971,two examples come I to my mind . For instance, up in Representative Miller's l I district instead of having the duel districts they.re- , , l ' I l cently voted to create a unit district, so that unit dis- . 1 trict would have the ' ample most fate limitations against ; j its evaluation forits .extension 'A.group of farmers are . ' in the process pow in one area of the county of formin g a ; fire orotection ''' district - , so if thev '' vote * . it in , they will .know those factg ahead of time . So that district will have t theratelimitautontimesitsvaluation. Four,taxesfor . - r*a;. '' . . -x')jl ' ' :.r!N ERA L A SSEM BLY z. i'' pM 11 . 2 ' *.'' svA. vcoe.1uu'slols lx6z/, elou sE o!r ae:eRe:scNl'ATlv Es  funds which have been created by referendum held .after Deee/ber 3l, 1971, and taxes for which this rat: limit h eve been established by referendum held after December 3l, 1971. I think if too. for example, the City of Decatur at the present time has been existence for years. But might vote this year to levy the ambulance tax . There may be a need for it. A rate of a penny and a half . So, they have the penny and a half times the valuation . I 'm think- ing of a school district in the second part, a unit school district may increase its rate limitations from $1.60 to $2.00 per hundred dollars. People know that, they know the what will happen and so forth, so they will have the new rate times the valuation. Nm en there's the last five sen- tences, take into consideravion what has happened in . peoria, what has happened in sangamon County. Sangamon County used some surplus on hand plus the increase in the local Retail- ers ' Occupational Tax, plus their receipts from the state income t@x act for general fund purposes and did not have to levy a tax. So , when I get my bill, and got it the other day, there's no 1O/ per hundred dollars in any cor- porate fund. Now, next year becaùse of using the surplu s and so forth, they are going to need to levy a tax . And this is for this purpose . Ncw, I might say there might be one or two other, maybe three, if this may have to be amend ed to take care of something that has not been' th ought a- bcut. But my point to you is this, you are continuous leqislative - bodv. * vou -* ére here todav -* and everv vear and -* 'e z' ' -- i /4.:. (-;>'e s. G E N E R A L A S SE M B LY ;C vv j'z - - r tD..; ..) .y2 svwxsovIuul sjojs y?% . S ' f. z.b& n Jw+Y 6' ' you probably will be back in the fall and you can take care of such changes. at least for two years time, but 1 . think this would be the greatest bonanza for the legisla- ture to enact for the benefit of the taxpayers cver the state who are screaming, screaming very much . Ncw, we read about in your area the northern part of the State in Cook County about. tax rate lim' itations of $10.00 and $11.00. Yes. that seems terrib le. But right here when I am paying a comparable tax at $5.00 a hundred: that's $4.88 a hundred, as you are paying those there because my home i's assessed ' at 5O% of actual value. Where you have a right in Cook County to tax high property and homes at 25% and 30% value. Now , I wculd like to also point out it 's time to pause and reflect because we have before us the 'U . S. Supreme Court taking jurisdiction of the taxes appeal, the property taxes for schools. Is it constitutional or not? And if it not, then we will have to complete the revival lines, the proper tax. Andeit is a difficult thing , with young people, too, with growing families building homes and paying property taxes of $1,000.00 and $1,200.00 and $1,5Q0.00 a year and that means that they're paying about $100.00 a month. And may I close and point out that this is not the only state that is considering this. Indiana, and I'm reading from Commerce Clearing's little weekly of February 15, 1972. Indiana has a bill. House Bill 1004 and the assessed eval- uation of the tax rate on real property would not increase by the taxing unit for a two year period. California, as .q.q '. ;A' z'.., #z '; ,y, GEN r;sItx u xssEM j ).jv . . ' . ia i 'zlû( zc. ,' kp : )r .. s. ) v t.o. yk..at;/ avcogIuu,slols khTT.'* Housf GFRQ:PHESEPITA.YIV ES .  the sponsor said, has a whole new >rogram and they're going to roll back the property tax by a tune of $6j0 millicn for schcol purposes only. The state of Colorado has a bill be - fore it which is A .C.R. 1002 to 1007 which would limit the property tax from real estate to 2% of the actual valuation. The State of Michigan even has a bill that says you and 1, if .we live there, could put improvements, additions on our house up to $2,000.00 without increasing the valuation, so I think the bill is needed, I think it's a good bill and that's the end of my preliminary statement- '' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah # thank ycu, Mr. Scott. There are six that would like to be recognized , 1'11 take them in order . Mr. Palmer.'' Romie J. palmer: 'tMr. .Paul Randolph: ''Mr . Minority Leader. '' : Clyde L . Choate: ''Ah, Mr. Chaïrman ; , may I inquire, is there I . more witnesses?'' Paùl J. Randolph : ''There are two more witnesses , Mr. Dan x> ' Baldino of the Civic Federation and Dean sears Director, , State Legislation .'' C1yde L . Choate : ''Are they appearing as proponents?'' Paul J. Randolph : ''They 're a11 proponents . n Clyde L. Choate: 'Are there any opp6nents?'' Paul J . Randolph: ''No opponents. '' Clyde L. Choate: HOkay . I would suggest that we do allow the witnesses ample time , t'o testify# however # would also ' suggest that the membership be given ample time as far as 's3 .. %'m: r! '.. ''.$ pY :---;'>'r G E N E R A L A S SE M B LY i 1ï ,k 0 :. ,. .''k .,.r. # t) ,& ro,g.w..,2 . , svxxeos,uulwo,s . e.r ., . b. %* . Hoklst':OF'REeF1EsE:blTAT1%/ES . ).a4ç..  questioning is con' cerned . '' Paul J . Randolph : ''I agree . Mr. Palmer .'' Romie J. Palmer: ''Mr. Paul J. Randclph : ''Ah . wculd you like tht witnesses to be called first and then 1'11 take you in order? Al1 right . let's go to Mr. Dan Beldino from the Civic Federatio'n. '' Morris W . Scott: '1Mr. Chairman: I'm sorry I took up so much time# but I thought I shozld clear up the exemptions- '' Paul J. Randolph: ''We'l1 call you back for questioning .'' Clyde L. Choate: ''Chairman . Chairman. Chairman. '' Paul Randolph : ''Mr . Minority Lçader.'' Clyde L. Choate : ''Mr . Chairman, I would request that the witnesses, if you 're going straight through with the wit- nesses, I would request that the witnesses who have test- ified remain in attendavce so that they can respond to questioning.'' Paul J. Randolph: ''They will stand by . '' Clyde L. Choate: ''I would alsb ah suggest Mr. Chairman that e z approximately 35 minutes of the hour of allotted time has gone and if we're going. to have ah to run little bit over time, that we have an understanding tha t we 're going to run overtime so that the membership w ill be able to avail themselves on questioning and answering periods - '' Paul J. Randolph z ''They will.Thank you . Mr. Baldino.%' Dan Baldino! .'Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committ ee. I am pleased to appear before you today and to e xpress the Civic Federationsl support for House Bill 4680 . This meas- ' ( y rs % t J .' ' .. .? c 7p>V :' ; GEN ERA L ASSEM 13LY w*f -; ! ., s.J C' - t. ;?. ) sTA' TEQF1uLINo1S V. . HOtlSEoFREPRESCNTA*rlVE9  ure. as previously explained, would freeze property tax extensions this year for the years 1973 and 1974 at 1972 levels. The bill provides direct tangible release for the property tax fair. Granted. there are other approaches in- eluding types of tox credits and exemptions, but this bill goes beyond th at. It is a guarantee to the taxpayer that the total tax burden shall be 'no higher during 1973 than 1974 than it was in 1972. In Cook County alone we have 520 taxing bodies. 28 of those taxing units are home rule government. I think it can be argued that they are proba- bly excluded from the provisions cf this bill. For exemple legal argument on the other side that they are included within the terms and provisions of this bill. I wculd p 'oin out to you that in Cock County total 1971 extension of thes 520 units were $1.738 billion. And 60% of that tax burden or $1,035,000,000.00 was levied by the seven major Chicago ' area government. No one is going to argue the property taxes aFe not too high . In 1971 within the City of Chicago, property taxes went up in terms of extension 18.6%. The rate wenk up 14%. Going back a few years in 1970, the ex- tensions went up *A, in 19:9, they went up 11.6%, in 1968. they went up 9.6%. Tn the five keac perïod. 1966 to 1971, extensions within the City of Chicago rose $438 million or 73.5%. The rate went up $2.42 or 44.6%. Likewise, we just completed a skudy of suburban Cook County. The 26 suburban Cook County home rule units municipalities show that tbeir levies went up 16% in 1971 and a11 other suburban Cook 7 ?(-m%, ' G EN ERA L A SSEM BLY tt st. ' ' k ,--, ) Jf;:) . svxxsc,sIuulsol s . Yli- .'.n.'- .. sousc oy -aceecsssvwvdvcs  County cities and villages showed an increase of across the board of 10 .4% . I would point out to the members from ' cook county that this is on top oi a cook county suburban increase of 21.0% in 1969. The increase is 3l% to 37% in two years. The Civic Federation wculd not argue that this measure would not create some harzships fcr local govern- ment. It's going to require belt tightening, it's going to require hostility: it 's going to be a tough bullet to bite. But I would point out to you and I would remind ycu that the Ameriean taxpayer partieularly the local property tax payer, has had to tighten his belt and has had to bite the bullet for tbe last three years, particularly since last August 15, when his income increases were cut measurably. In extreme cases of eme<gency , the General Assembly will meet during the next several years. They can co/rect any kinds of problems. We foresee two possible types of prob lems right off the bat. A school district . for exapple, which has massive enrollment increases , might need some corrective legislation. A sanitary district which is ordered by the pollution control board to put in pollution equipment might need some kind of help, but generally speaking, it'll simply bequire hostility . I would urge your support fcr the measure . It will provide welcome tax relief to the property tax payer and I thank you for appearing before you today .'' Paul J. Randotph: ''All right, thank youz Mr. Baldino. Will you please stand by. Next witness, Dean M . Sears. Illincb î-1' xq j?bè:.. . ? 't. )..70' 1% y GE NEltA L A SSE51BLY $J ;7 . N j)<;,!.= Vf . . o ' ' '* ) w , ' svsv soussor s4o er s1uu1:4o1s cpasscNvlvlwss . .y: . . ' .x. %.  Agriculture Association.'' . Dean M . Sears: ''Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Members of the Com- mittee. I appreciate also this opportunity to appear be= fore you today and 1'11 be very brief in my comments. We support the concept of this bill as we have supported other meaningful legislation to give relief to the over burdened property tax payer. Property taxes on farm, real estate and personal property continue to increase each year on farm property and to indicate to 'you the increase, I sup- pose could be most vividly portrayed as the percentage of the farmer 's net income. So very briefly here to cover some statistics with you, going back to 1960, the realize net income of farmers ân Illinois amounted to 4599 million. The total property tax paid at that ' t ime by farmers'was $140 million, so this meant that as a percentage of real- ized net income, total prcperty tax was 24% of the farmers' net income at that time. Moving ten years ahead to 1970, ve the realized net income of farm coymunity was $777 million. whereas the tctal property tax burden increased from $140 million to $261 million, so at that stage in 1970, property taxes amounted to 34% of the farmers' net income. Over one third. So, over this period of time, we've seen an in- crease in net income of 32%, but weive also seen an increas in property taxes of 86%, so I think this very vividly portrays the problem we have on our hands and the spiral 'can not be allowed to continue. so, we appreciate any legis- lation of this type to freeze the tpxes, to give you as a . z'. ?x%% ') 1., g (w77 jg, 74* 7e<'.' .. ï G E N E 11A L A SSE M B L Y ? . :. (jrtg , s kk.xq p.y .s'j j. j...a; . 1 .*, j' rx2oFIuu1f t. rJ s' qoIs  legislature an opportunity to develop meaningful long term permanent legislation to 'keep the property taxes in line an we also see the side benefit here, the fact that many units of lbcal government will need to take a.more careful look ' at thG r spending and to economize where possible. Thank you very much .'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah thank you , Mr. Sears,. will you please stand by. Now: the, going down the list, the first one to comment, Representative Palmer.'' Romie Palmer: ''Mr. Chairman. like to address my ques- tions to Mr. Scott.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr.Maurice Scott, will you please come for Ward .'' Romie J. Palmer: '' And I might say this my judgment, this is cne of the most important pieces of legislation that this House shall have occasion to act upon. Mr. Scott, the bill reads pegs the extension to the year 1972. Is that correct '' Maurice W . Scott: ''That is right.'' Romie J. Palmer: ''Why, that will be extended in January, believe, in 1973 in Cook . Am I correct on this? Cook county?'' Maurice W . Scott: HNoy Cook County has already. extended its taxes in 1972. You 're, you 're limited to the legal expense and for such purposes in the year 1972. That is to say for Romie J. Palmer: ''We're talking about calendar year, rightr ' Maurice W . Scott : ''Right .'' q-?' :). -->' .rt', G EN E ltA L A SSE M BL Y .' . t ;t , 1 ( $*f'Y=' X g'f;- ).N.,. W'i'X*'' ,os.-?' t. k. ' s .'A'':OF'L' -''40. s Hotlse:t:àF IRf:PRCSE:eq'rA'rIVE5  Romie J. Palmerz ''Now . that would be also applicpb le to down- statè Illinois?'' Maurice W . Scott: nThat is correct . l' Romie J. Palmer: '6Al1 right. Does the county board or the board of supervisors have any statutory duty in connection with the extension of these taxes?'' Maurice W . scott: f'Noe the County Board is the governing body of the bady and makes these levies from which the extension are made. In other words, the county board says for the General Fund, we wculd like to have $1 million to file a levy with the County clerk. Nov, last year if only $900,- 000.00 was presented for that county, I mean in 1972# then for the next two years , then $900,000.00 would be the limit for the extension . '' Romie Palmer: .'A1l riqht . . Number Three, question number three, would it apply to the county clerk of Cook County inasmuch as Cook County is a home rule county?'' Maurice W. Syott: ''Nowe that q' uestion was raised by Mr. Ba1- dino. There are, there would be dispute with legal monie on this, but it is my opinion as the bill is written , would apply to home rule units- '' Romie J. Palmer: nThank you very much . '' Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. B. Wolfe-'' Bernard B. Wolfe: ''Thank y'ou , Mr. Chairmen, I'm going to direct my questions to any of the gentlemen that testified ah for en answer. First a clarification on th e extension fcr 1972. Ah, I beliege we just received our 1971 tax bill .?h z.-,-:9 ( yt... sy-jr . ï G E N E R A L A SS E M B LY l1f-l ?ti.j kx.J l STA'TEoFluulsol s j,u.:''. f,4)A.-r.'*.. ' ' . . .t.s'% sousùog.asefve:scslvA.vtuss  in Cook County and the first half was payable June the 1st and the second half of those tax bills will be payable . september 1 of this year and that'extension was an all time high extension. Now, ycu have just stated that the' extensions for have already been prepared, is this a fact, or are they working on these extensions at the preset time?'' Maurice W. Scott: ' .Xs far as Ccok County is concerned and in response to your question, the extension has been made . As far as my county has been conc%rned, the extensions huve been made in '72. As far as Wi11, ah, St. Cfair and scme of the other counties, the extensions have not as yet been completed. Because there has been a lateness in the 'isàu - ing of the multiplier - '' Bernard B. Wolfe: ''So# there are counties in the state that have not completed their '72 extensions. '' Maurkce W scott: ''Youdre right . '' Bernard B. Wolfez ''Is that correct? All right, the next poin that I have is that this bill applies to all real propert y, industrial, commercial ah etc .: homes, is that correct?'' Maurice Scott: ''That is coxrect- '' Bernard B. Wolfe: ''What is the benefit to the home owner ah segment of our citizenry as compared to the industrial and commercial and income producing properties ah of the Statezi' Maurice W. Scott: 1'Ah, I can 't answer that, iecause don't have a breakdown right now . '' v.>AAlprz . .x q.';.) a. z )zy..).j(..>xMe-.hy G E N E R A L A SSE M B LY i:s -l) rEc . jj sht'' X', s' r-' rcoe'uulNo's 1x! Jze; ''j' -p :'.' . .:' r . ' .....' :lN.. ' HOQISQGF RKPRESCPITA'YSVKS .*l.;.  Bernard B. Wolfe: ''Dces the gentleman from Civic Federpticn have a. . Paul J. Randolph: ''Mr. Baldino .'' Bernard B. Wolfe: .breakdown?'' Dan Baldino: ''I don 't have a breakdown, but one very tan- gible aspect we'll have will be that any increased con= struction certainly commercial cr otherwise will effectivel . work out because of its freeze to lower some of the exist- ing*- tax of the home owners. In * other words, any new pro- . perty that goes up will be the subject of taxatiod and then will reduce the rate that you and I are presently paying . one of the other gentlemen, perhaps, ean answer your per- centeges.'' ' Paul J. Randolph: ''Mr. Wolfe.'' Bernard B. Wolfe: ''All right, before they do, I 'd like to ah I'd like to cite, there's already a movement through the state locally, not only to freeze ah the taxes, but to cut baekethe cut back on expenses whieh is a most import- ant faetor which this bill completely ignores to cut back on the expenses of the local units of goyernment so that they can meet this so-called retention. Now , in the sun Times on June the 7th , there was a comment made ah home owners gain is small in tax freeze, and they were quoting from a representative of the Civic Federation, if you'll wait one minute, 1'11 put my glasses on . For chicagoans owning homes in excess of $10,000.00, a savings of about $9.00 is projected. Por suburbanites, there is no projecte .a )t' . -J>%' G E N E ItA L A SS E M 8 LY t;y f -s). s ..kj, .k f ' FN.#j;Zsi'' Vë . ) swa. vcop'$uu1stols .=:=..- . - Hotpss os RceasssayxrsvEs . - -.  gain or loss. Meaningful tax relief will require the actual cutting of tax rates by a number of government agencies sai; Vern Kron, Director of the Civic Federation. Now , how does that rdlate to my question.'' Dan Baldino : ''Very simply. This bill is specifically points out that very thing. That editorial yqu 're referring to did not relate to this bill at all. This bill doesn't rely on good government, it simply says that you must live within your budget, so in effect we're not saying please reduce your taxes, please reduce your expenditures, we 're saying you have ho alternative, because you 're not getting any more money .'' Paul J. Randolph : .'All right, the next. Bernard B . Wclfe: ''I 'm not, Mr. Chairman . Paul J. Randolph : ''W ill ycu bring your questions to a close .'' ' BGrnard B. Wolfe: ''I'd like to make a comment-'' Paul J. RaRndoiph: '' We11 will you state your question and then ' 1'11 give you an opportunity to make a comment later.n Bernard B . Wolfe: ''Al1 right. I think .. . .'' /aul J. Randolph: .'' We have a long list.'' Bernard B. Wolfe: ''Yeah. this hasn 't been answered. We dre looking if we don 't have the breakdown and we're looking ah to give tax relief to the homeowners of this state and that was the entire thrust of .C . L. Mccormi' ck 's opening statemen , it was the thrust of the Governor's statement that the per- sons on the individual home owners must be relieved.'' '.;+ p 'j e. 7 :e7, c' GENEs Rva Avs Loe A, uSu,S-oE' sM BLY . az ..g ;1 t k - , -. jk'.1 y,.'t ' t' ,'' e z: -.... ) .... ..ok,s,.:o s IajzeI assc01va.vjvcs . ..  Dan Baldiho: think you're in error, Representative Wolfe, the thrust of our statement was that taxes would be redueed ' We didn 't specify that any segmenk alone would be favored against one or the other. As it turns out, obviously. home owners will benefit greatly and they 're the ones that we're mostly concerned with . But we 're not pointing this toward one segment. We 're pointing Ahis against on behalf of al1 . the people, whether it be industry or other home owners.'' Bernard B. Wolfe: ''Al1 right, now , let's just .let's cut this thidg down the middle and lay the cards out cn the table, because these jokers in these bills ccme up after th tax and I'm going to cite a direct ah actuality what hap- pens to the income tax. Now, we were sold a bill of 'gobds of that kind that the individuals in this state would be contributing approximately $640 million under that formzla and cotporations were to be distributed $320. '' Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Wolfe, ah . . Bernard B .MWolfe: ''This is related. ' . Paul J. Randolph: ''What is your question?'' Bernard B. Wolfe: ''to. Paul Randolph : ''Otherwise .lem going to have to move along, I have a long list of Representatives that would like to ask questions. Will you come to the. do you have anothe . question?'' Bernard B. Wolfe: 'lI have the question that has not been ans- wered yet and I want to know what benefits will be received by the home owners of this state and that represents about ' ,o..à'jw 'k%$ G E N E R A L A SSE M BL Y ty , 'k. f'-.yjxj( zk z,1 s' ra' rsosjuujplols k Xi . l '' r ......' eo uss os Rcepsseavevlwss  five and a half million people living in about 2,400,000 homes in the state of Ilfinois,. .and I'd like.to have it as . . Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Epton.'' Bernard B. Wolfe: . manswered by somebody who researched this. Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Epton; will reply-'' Bernard E. Ept onz ''Representative Wolfe, it 's a very simple question . When you ask what benefits, if you 're saying wha percentages, obviously we don 't have those figures here. When you say what benefits, the simple answer is consider- able benefits. We are stopping, there can be no increase in your tax and my tax in any home owners tax. And con-, and that in itself answers your question for benefits. Now , i in addition to that; it's quite possible by virtue.of thè I tax that there is constvuction presently going on and that. new construction will be assessed in tax , that there will be, there'fore, a reduction in your tax and mine . It's a simple answer to a simple questièn.'' Paul J. Randolph: ''A11 ri/ht, I must go along to the next, 'Mr. John Alsup has been waiting a long time for. .to be recognized. Mr. Alsup.'' John W. Alsup: would like to ask a question -'' Paul J . Randolph: ''Mr. Mccormick-'' John W . Alsùp : ''C.L. I have a certain 'amount of apprehension about this. If you limit the extension, obviously the tax body can't extend anymore taxes and what they have been. r J-. $'-> -h G E N E 11 A L A S S E M B L Y t? /mt i . - c ç. ncu #$ , .':J . )tjj , . 's' . r-'rc o !r ''-u'h'ods ,f,3.='x)'. ' ' k,. 4. .. sousc oe R eessscnvxv'w cs .  But let us assume the Supreme Court upholds some of the exemptions of personal property . Would you be willing t.o accept an amendment prepared by the Taxpayers Federation and 1.11 help with it and to present the shift of the bur- den from the personal property tax payers over to the real estate. In other words, where we limit in advance the rate on real estate as a result of exemptions from personal Property.o C. Mccormick : ''As a result of your conversation and Repres entative Tipsword 's conversation, the other da'y, Maurice Scott now is working on that type of amendment and we'll have it on seeond reading to present to you-'' John W . Alsup : ''Thank you.'' Paul Randolph: ''Mr. Scariano .'' Anthony Scariano: ''Mr. Chairman, I'd like these questions answered by anybcdy who feels qualified to do so. Ah. you ' are apparently limiting the public body in the next two Years tY ' the same expenditures that they had in the previou year. This seems to be a fair statement of what the bill does. Am I right?'' C. L. Mccormick: uNot completely, no. The amount of the amount of the amount of real estate, property tax can be extended. It has nothing to do, Anthony, with the amount of the federal funds that are coming in. .'' Anthony Scariano: ''No: no# what I'm saying is if you levied . a million dollars, I've got a statement from Maurice scott which says that I'm right here, if you levied a million %%%%t iAIp ,',4t l C1t s' if> *-. G EN ERA L ASSEM BLY (1f- x . t( : p: 4- , . ?. mf '?xet ' 't ,. -j sv-vsoe.,uu,sto,s eIou se:os ssese: seNvA'rIwss .  dollars last year, ycu 're limited to a million dollars in ; that next year.'' C. L. Mccormick : ''That 's right. That's right.'' Anthony Scariano: ''What guarantee is there in the bill that the prices that publie bodies have to pay in the wages that they pay their employees are going to remain as stable as ' the money that they have to spenda'' l j C . L. Mccormick : ''Wel1, ah, I think that it kind of goes back ! . t: what the Mayor and what George Dunnehas done in the city end the county. If they have to look their organiza- tion over, maybe they need to make some belt tightening in . order to. . .and another thing, now , 1et me finish . .Anothe thing . In the city, you 're basically talking about schools I guess, but in the city and the couhties, we've had a 1ot ' of E.E.A. offers that have been given to them for the sup- plement that with federal payrolls. In addition to you, you know yourself that the Congress, the Democratic Congres A and the .Nixon Administration is going to give you the great est H.E.W . money that you ever had for the sehool districts in your partieular community. too-'' . ' Anthony Scariano : ''But what do I tell the Brennan Township High School District which has an enrollment of several hundred kids a year and where the price to educate them is about $1,400.00 or $1.500.00 a year and that's a rapidly growing area. The whole suburban area of Cook County is ' growing with leaps and bounds. the principle industry. . What do I tell the Brennan Township High School and what do 'NN.s:-a2J!'',vo. fvtëe.''.? .J '7> 17't G E N E R A L A SSE M 1)L Y %*.' . . .b 3.' !ç. (: s X. ..r ksj k. .k,j; ''.':'7''.'. '. sv>. ' 4o1s rs:oe.luu1p j.joujus o s.as:eIvsscr:vavIu ss . . . .  I tell the Rich Township High School which goes qn douile shifts in December, becôuse we don 't have room enough for all these kids that are coming in?'' ' c. L. Mccormick: ''I will tetl you, because you being on the School Problems Commission, you already kncw . That if you have a thousand kids in your school and next year you have fifteen hundred kids in your school and you can only extend a million dollars, that the state has to pick up the dif- ference in the guarantee. Now , Anthony, you know that.'' Anthony scariano: ''That is a very simple solution that C. L. Mccormick has but it doesn 't work that way andno member ot the school Problems Commission here will tell you that works that way.'' C. L. Mccormick : ''It does down in Johnson Ccunty-'' Anthony Scariano: ''We1l, you 've got a. misconception on how that school aid formula works, because that guarantee sfmpl means that the state is going to guarantee, for instance, an expenditure of $520.00 or whatever it happens to be with al1 of these different factors, but the cost of educating a high school kid now is about $1,400.00 or $1,500.00 or TRC XC e i' c. L. Mccormick: ''And another thing I think Anthony that we might look at and I've not got any particular figures on your school, but in many of the schools in the State of Illinoi' s , it's got to the poipt where the teaching in the school is the smallest. We 've got more override in the school than we've got' in the teaching. It's time we tight- q<..-1A*d4, i;*4):n. ' ï 'ç- * r>,.t'h ', t.' c EN EI tA L A SSE M B LY ' 1V%Ji. kr.J p..ù..,'! s' r--rzC'' r'Lu'''o's so'usa oe.f.e:eassc:.'vA-r1ves  J en the belt for a year and get it over.'. Anthony Scariano : ''We11, what I think you have to look at is the rapidly groving area of suburban Cook County and this bill is qoing to hurt every public body which is growing, those districts and suburbia. they tre only school districts. But they dre also municipalities and other taxing bodies which are taking on an added burden with al1 the people cominq in to 'move with al1 the expressways and toll ways ' coming in, Brennan Township now is probably the mosk rapidl growing area in a1l Cook County. But you can ,t tell me that by simply limiting the amount of money you 're going to have to spend is going to put an end to their px'eblems, and I think that's what you're holding out when you say. L. Mccormick: ''T didn 't 'say it would put an end to their problems, don 't propose i% ko put an end to their pro- blems, but I say I say thak the ta, x ing structure in the State of Illinois is hanging in balance with the schbols and fedeeral ccurt action is coming up and I say that the individual property tax payer is whether he be a businessma or whether he be a home owner is at a point of confiscation right now and that the least that we can do is to stop everything for the yea/ or two years that it's necessary and redo this thing when we come baêk here. And another thing, Anthony, I would be willing and happy to sit down with you and the people that we know Xnow the school tax business and maybe there needs to be amendments for excep- ticnal districts, like you 're talking about. If it does, .qt.;l1A',ray. ' . ,;'?''(cpkrA ' G EN E ItA L A ssE M B Lv i ?kk ' h .. Jr,,1-ï ..C . c 1z -4x x krX ' .'-; . s' rA. TEoFIuu1No1S j,o use:os RE:esssshl.rav1vus ' I'd be glad to work it out.'' Anthony Scariano: ''I had a question of the Civic Federation and the Taxpayors Federption, ah, isn't the Taxpayers Fed- eration and the civic Federation composed almost entirely of business and income producing property owners and not home ownersa'' Dan Baldino: ''Yes.'' Anthony Scariano : ''And that's true of Mr. Scctt ls organizatio p tOO?'' Maurice W . Scott: ''No, it is not entirely .'' Anthony Scariano: ''A11 right.'' Maurice W . Scott: ''In numbers, individual home ownars make up the greater number. In the amount of budget, commercial and industrial pay a greater proportion.'' Anthony Scariano: ''Well, I'd like to have the breakdown from that ah from you,Maurice, because my impression has always been in the fifteen years I've been here that you ar'ethe voice of business and income producing property. I don 't know of any homeowners that belcng to your organization.'' Maurice W . Scott: ''I will be very glad to give it to you in response to your question, ah. Paul J. Randolph: ''Mr. Scott, we mdst proceed with the other ! . - ; questions. Iim sure that you can give the gentleman the j information he ,' requests.'' Dan Boldino : nIf I could simply respond, I certainly concur with Representative Rccormick 's response, and I should add ! that neither one of us represent any industry. think tha ' q& ..- , .sux-.)..y t. :Aè.Ta>. . T?>%q s . . . ' '.c E N E ItA L A SS E51B LY l . ;y .q ,t . b ç.h t . y, â 4.., r. - . . .%*...- k %s ) , HOQSs Evv o. .Fq . : El Su Eu R' P. Ee Ro , qToA's M Yl .Vcs h':r.a. l  what the point you raised, Representative Scariano, is certainly a valid one and it 's a calculated risk in this bill and 1et there be no doubt about it. There are some afflùent areas that will suffer. .There ere some growing areas that aren 't so affluent that will suffer. but the fact remains thak the people as a whole have asked us by virtue of their resistance to these increasing taxes and expenditures to take this course. As Representative Mc- cormick indicated, I don't think Civic Federation notwith- standing or the Taxpayers Federationy if the crisis or the need is evident, then this legiplation will see fit to reetify it4 but I think that you 'll agree. Certainly you know better than most of us that much of the money that goes to the Board of Educafion unfortunately turns out product that doer 't fill us with pride end may well be that this might be the caborus, the teacher school educau . tors that were serious about this business.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Tipsword .'' Rolland F. Tipsword: ''Mr. Chairman, I'd like to address my questions, if I might, to Mr. Mccormick or anyone else thet wishes to answer them, but first of a11# to Representa tive Mccormick. Representative Mccormlck, I want to con- gratulate you pnd to thank you on this bill. I had the pleasure of discussing 'this very spme proposition with the ah Illi'nois Taxpayers Federation ah about six or eight mont s ago and they did the research on this that you have so very ably placed in this Uill and I'm very happy for another . h* - '?(..m.-.A 6ey G E N E jtA L A SSE M B L Y 1;C ç'...c. . . j -k '- ' . r ;)t';l s'rA.Tu:oe'Iut.Ie4o,s . j,;'*z.r:'-.. . Ho.usc oe'Re:er.csEN'rA'rIvcs .ë .!ê .. .1s%*  reason.that this is in your hands. And I say this 'very sin'cerely, I think there are only a few members of this body who have the seniority and the confidence of the other ' members of khis body to such an extent t%at they could afford to put this k ind of a bill before the House and I think that you 're one of those people that I w ish that I were. And I'm very happy that you're hand'ling thise be- eause I think this bill therefore has a better ehanee of passage in this House. I would like to ask you just two or three questions if it is your intention that some of these things that I have in mind would happen it this bill were to pass . First of all, is it a portion of your in- tention in the presentation and hopefully the passage of this bill th at we would cause a11 units of loeal government to reassess their spending poliey ih the light of'this bill so that w e might know if we could proeeed in new and dif- ' . ferent directions thereaftçr?'' c. L . Mccormick : ''That is true.'' Rolland Tipsword: ''Is it also your intention if this bill is passed that we of the state and in a11 of the agencies of the state would reassess our policy toward units 'of local government in providing state finanding in the future as to where we are now providing the state finaneing als'o, whether we're doing it correctly and in the right areas or nOt?'' C . L. Mccormick : ''Yes, think that 's very important and I think it wouldn't be bad if this Gqneral Assembly, the lead . zxt.?-1- $*'' wd'r. ê k G E N E R A L A SSE M B LY 77 (tf: .''p, t,l k i -! ..- - Fc roav . s' no cP. - 17I Cu su E' N- To A' sTI+ES  ership in th'a Guneral Assemb ly would take a look in the next year, year and a half at the overall structure in the state of Illinois.'' Rolland F. Tipsliörd: ''Even more hopefully and this was really the basic re.xson that I had inquired about this major, is it your intention that if this measure were to become law that we look at this as an opportunity,'not just merely as a bonanza for'the moment, but an opportunity for us to com- pletely refox% tc look to the reformation of the tax struc- ture of the State of Illinois. That is the whole purpose, I feel.'' C. L. Mccormick: ''That is the whole purpcse of the bill and to instill confidence in the Eaxpayer and the state that we are responsible and that we will lock into it in light of the court decisions that we know are almost certain tc come on the.financing of the schools in the State of 111- inois.'' Rolland Eu Tipsword: ''And I would ask you in addition and I'm A ' sure that you wcùld, would you not joinwith me and I'm sure many other members of this House that in those instances such as the districts discussed by Re/resentative Scariano, the ah districts'and prob lems thett were mentioned by Mr . Baldino in his statement that we would during these two years address ourselves to trying to cure the problems, the immediate and short range problems that are cured by the passage of this bill for Ehose districts.'' C/ L. Mccormick: ''Yes, sir, think that a bill that wouldn't .x.v..l '&...' 4,' - J.; ' . io'l J tw *-r. - G ENE I tA L A SSEM BLY Fx - '':'r' .k!) ,c. sxaveos,uu'so' s $ )eV .='':/''..,'. .. ..df +%* ..' j . jouss:osRseasse:a' rA' rIwcs  do that or p' sponsorship that wouldn 't agr ee to that would not be worth listening to on this floor- '' Rolland F . Tips'.zord : ''You certainly don 't look to this as a cure all, but merely more of a means toward an end . '' yœ ' C. L. Mccormick: ''Yts. it's just expctly like you're sick @: and you go tb the doctor, he bends you over the desk and he .gives you a shot in the rear and he 'gives you ab out ten more pills take and whichever one helps you that 's the : one we want to use and that's what this bill is - '' Rolland P. Tipsword: ''We1l. Representative Mccormiek , I want to tell you that I 'm very happy that I've been one of the very many members of this House that's joined in the co- sponsorship ot this bill wit: you. I hope that we can get this bill passed.. think it gives not only a n opportunity but an obligation to this body and to a1l of the executive branch of government and in addition, I think it should point very importantly toward a fourth group that has to 'act in this area that you didn 't mention but of course xe ' , none other than the courts of this state, address themselve to meaningful tax reformation and to meaningful review of tax reformation laws in this State. kt's very important that we change the tax structure o.f this state to such degree that the taxpayers are al1 'fairly and equally treat- ed: and I think this bill of yours a means to that end . I'm happy to nolo thet you are willing to accept khe pmend- ment that Representative Xlsup discussed. I think it'is very necessary to this bill and to the taxpayers of this ' , . )t . %.- .:)-g j .. png'%X.j ''# :;vE . NER AL A ggEM 1)LY lf uàv .r..sq4 . .,.? ,1 sv. s. r.:os,u, .I, 4oIs * >J . ' ' 'ldC$USE QF RCPRCSEblT'&' FIVES  state. And I hope we cen al1 look forward to an eliminatio someway of al1 of the personal property taxes of the state which the Governor said the income tax geve him an oppor- tunity to do. Regrettably , that bill is not here before us. And I wish that it were. I thank you for presenting this bill and I want to tell you that I pledge to you every effort I can poss.ibly make to make this bill effective, not just as a stop gap measure or a bonanza for two years, but something that we can get some real meaningful change in our tax. Paul Randolph : ''We must move along. Mr . Shea.'' Gerald W . Shea: L w the assessor in Cock County has in the last year or so, particularly in two of the townships we have up there, or guadrants, been doing lot cf reassess ing. Now, as the bill limits the dollar amount, it seems to me we can not take advantage up there, at least, of two things. One, the provision in the new constitution with regards tb classification and another one with regards to growth and ah I think you 're going to have to do something i in that area.'' C. L. Mccormick : '$Ah # ah, Jerry, ah might I say here, this would have nothing to do with the assessors going ahead and bringing his job up to date. The only thing it would do is erase the million bucks more in the assessments that would just cause the person that is already on the rolls that is pot changed to have a small reduction in his taxes.'' Gerald W . shea: ''Well, the reduction sheet bill wouldn't come *xû ll'''.#. ;t 'j '-pn.Y' G E N E R A L A SSE M BL Y '' i;:..'( . . f1r 7/. .j j svxvs oy 'ut-l.qoIs î N' ï& A .xw'' x. k't./.n' F1ousc oc aceacsc-- rx-r'vcs . 41 . +%' . .. . . . - --. ' to the homeowner as much as it would to some of our big industrial and commercial propertiese and that's what bothers me .'' C. L. Mccormick : ''We1l, possibly possibly by them being put on the rolls where they should be instead of where they were, we'll say, bçfore, it would cause them tc be paying taxes if they haven't been paying them before. See, they 'd be extending the tax of that full rate that they could extend against them .'' Gerald W . Shea: ''All right, now, I have ancther.prcblem with regards to county hospital and county hospital is one of the units up there that hes a rate limitation cn it. Georg Dunne has fought very hard to hold the line in county'taves and has come up with some programs such as our four payment bill that will save the taxing of some $32 million up there, but beèause of the increased burden placed on county hos- pitals because of the unemployment situation up in Cook County ynd that, ah, I think we'd be limited there unfairly.'' L. Mccormick: ''Ah , I would suggest that we get together and work this thing out if there is a real need. a real problem . we 'd be glad to work thEt out. I don't think we should in any way, whether it's health or actual welfare of the peopl/, involve put B squeeze to where they can't Operlte '' Gerald W . shea: ''In many cther areas where local units of government have taken the initiative, I think it would be not e good policy to place limitations on their flexibility x&v%'*;A'êf é>'z ,I (Jz % -?1 .'- ' : 'r 7 >%':. G EN EsRv.AvsLoe.AIuS u.S qoEI sM BLY kv' - ).. - x . -W;; $ ' *1t ....%s%*' ' J b t . = . ' souscosnseassu-vav'vss . '. . ..  and I I 1. . .'' C . L. Mccormick: ''You take in Cook County, for instance, and I'm not an 'authority on Cook County, you know that. But now. you tpke at the millions of dollars that the ' Cook County has been allowed to Cook County from E.E .A., that's a tremendous amount. Gerald W . Shea: ''I can 't hear you, c.L .'' ' C. L. Mccormidk: ''I say you take if they would just take the tremendous amount of money that's been allocated not only to Cook County, but the other counties, Ccok County and they were to.funnel that E.E.A. money from the jobs that that is providing for people up there into the areas where they need additional help, they could do that without costing the county a nickel.'' Gerald W . Shea: ''We1l, I thipk that my leaders up there, my elected officials, have taken that initiative.'' C. Lk Mccormick : ''We11' then, that . 's fine.'' Gerald W ...Shea: ''The Mayor of the City has cut ten per cent and talking about cutting it . And the President cf the County Board by resolution, froze taxes up there. .1 think that I think that when they take this local initiative, don't want to be coming down here' and start hamstringing them in other areas-'' C. Mccormick : ''We11. I wculdn't want to hamstring any- body, I just think that the. ' G'erald W . shea: ''Well,' the Mayor was the very first person that. ; b; '..h: x.w' . :->. G E N E 11 A L A S S E M B L Y t ' qt vh ''v rpltq,'l-h )v sxwvcosjuu,xojs $7V :n. %. ... ' .%*x .? .... . Hot lSEOF'REPREsENTA' FIVES  Mccormick : .1 read where he said the pröperty tax is absolutely more than the people can bear and' .'' Gerald W . Shea: ''And he 's done something about it, C.L.S' C. L. Mccormick : ''Then I think everybody in the state should follow his lead.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah # the next question, Mr. Hart . '' Richard 0 . Hartz ''Ah: C. L., ah# I see nothing in this bill which would give any enforcement or enforcq ability on the tax payers and I 'm wondering what would you do or what would the taxpayers do if the county clerk duressed or urged on by County Board just sàid well, we'll go ahead and levy more then we did last year anyway. What are we going to do about thata'' C. L. Mccormick : ''We1l, ngw , I think that the Revenue 'Article, the same remedies you have now, you'have the same'remedies, you stand to protest. Or the State 's Attorney could go in like they 're doing now on the personal property .tax and ask that he do his job and. Richard 0. Hart: NNow, you know as well as I do that thcse are not practical remedies ah paying under protest, the only ones that can do that are the ones that are either lawyers or can hire a lawyer or something or have enough involved to make it worthwhile for him. Ah, would you accept an amendment to this bill wlaich would give some teeth to it which would provide that the event that the county clerk did in fact extend more than last year. regard less of the provisions of this act, that he would be liable '.x:*h J 4J# a 3(.w *%'% G E N E R A L A SSE M B LY t ' .'i j i :- t f: ',.. ) ! 7ï ji*.'1 sv-m' sos'uule 4o's k( , % iN . .r / : ë. *' . uouss o'r'Rsenusu- vxvdve:s  on a bond to any taxpayer for all expenses, court costs and legal fees as result incurred by any taxpayer in the collection of the amount to which he was damaged by the payer to follow this act.'' Morris W . scott: ''Ah # Dick, we don't think that we really need that, however, we certainly see the point of ybur remarks and the'spcnsor, the principal sponscr of the bill would be happy to discuss it ah as it presently obviously there are certain things going on downstate that for exam- ple, in Cook County you don 't need a lawyer to file it under protest. Ah, downstate I thought you didn 't either. But the fact is that if you and the co-sponsor felt that there is some area that the public needed greeter protectio , certainly would be very easy to add it to this bil1.'' Richard 0. Hart : ''We.1l, nobody needs a lawver to file it . under protest, it's just for the fact that you just can'' t do it without one, because paying under protest on real estate Aaxes, for instances, requires by statute that you come at cnce with an itemization of reasons thevefore and it would get involved and. .'' Morris W . Scott: ''Yeah , but Dick, look at if you had p situa- tion where the clerk did that wrongfully, .he wouldn 't be doing it to cne individual, he would be doing it for a group and include industry as well as a group of homeowners and therefore this is the protection we felt they had , as you can well point out . If you would like to add some more teeth to it and ah inèlude the municipalities , I 'm sure the - - - - = VV '''f1zv NN l tï (?$ k(' ? ', .L->''c' G ENERA L ASSEM BLY t /ql ra-1.,.rx. : 41 s'r-'rc ofrIuu1Nols hc'' . iz' -t. =- .''-' Rtq . .Ie%. , soosc os sseasssxvxv,vcs  sponsor will consider it with you and perhaps we can do it by agreement and forget it-'' Richard 0. Hart : ''We11, the principal sponsor and I are frcm the same district and ah I think he would agree with me that sometimes the county officials pay more attention to his local county board than he does for his legislatoks and ah I think ve could put something in here to that re- gard for some real protection for the taxpayer in the event that the county clerk does not follow the 1aw which in many instances he does not by way of eitheb extending more than authorized rates, extending illegal rates or other as directed by che county board. Ah, then, Paul J. Randolph: ''Do you heve a further question, Mr. Hart?'' Richard 0. Hart: ''Yes. I do, ah, what e re we going to.do in the instances where the legislature this session either has or does mandate increases in the extensions or the tax rate of certain local taxing districtsa'' Mccofmick: ''Where, where have we done that, Dicka'' Richard 0. Hart: HWell, we just increased the State's Attor- neys salaries the other day and we could there are some bills hanging around which are going to increape the salary of the other county officials and the .we have we have ah . .the bill that passed out of the senate ah I think yesterday which aids to increase the levy for sanitary dis- tricts and so fcrth by one per cent or ope cent, I think it was, but in those instances, I think we 're going to have a conflict in the laws passed by the General Assembly and I'm . k. z. p. /..Jf - 'j .$j' , 7 .VV . '' V i s î G E N E R A L A SSE M 1 $L Y $$.'g. ( V .''f J . -@,z -) sma. ' rt:op -1uulwlo1s J ;h- ' / = J' -. sk .,ê.. * .. - - - - . uousc oe.r. vsestssc.'v.%v1vIus - .  wondering if there shouldn 't be an exception placed in the act to exclude areas of increase mandated by this legisla- tive body of this session?'' Bernard E. Epton: ''This is one of the exceptions that Repres- entative Mccormick and Mr. Scott discussed. To the best of our knowledge, anything that the legislature has done that has mandated has not been excessive. We didn 't think it would require it. But it may well be that if it should come to pass, I think that one of two things would happen . Either the legislature sitting here wculd have to realize that they would be putting a considerable burden on a par- ticular municipality and if they see fit to do so for what virtue of way and what have you, they would 1et it go that way. On the other side of the coin. if it were a burden, and if the legislature felt that it was one that should be passed, then we would have to makç an exception to this.'' Richard 0 . Hart: ''Wel1, when would you contemplate thât we would dc that?'' l ' ! Bernard E. Epton: ''We11, if we felt that M was one that shoul I i be passed, then we would have to make an exception,.and as I said, in the past we have not to the best of our knowledg passed any burdens that we can't live with henceforth. Assuming the passage of this bill, l would say we would have to do it simultaneously. For example. if we passed a bill ah a week after this bill were Dassed and we put a burden on a municipality, we would pt that time have to exempt that municipality, allow them to increase the levy 'k ... z' e / û' '' j k ' qt z?::.t--'r ' $ G EN ERA L ASSEM 1$1-Y 7! a1 . s. ).t Nx' :4r ;yt ) T''. * ' ', .. svn. ' rc:oF'Iut.IsloI s uowsq;ofr IRe:ent:scNvA.v1w Es .u*1f;:..1..&e,  by the extent of what we added .'' Richard 0. Hart: ''We11, don't you think it would be proper then, on second reading, tc just put an extension here in a general way to say an exception for where increases were mandated by the legislature. I'm thinking, Bernie, for instance, in Saline County, which is in and my dis- trict, ah they're claiming that as of July the 1st, they 're ' actually going to be broke. they 're going to have to shut the 'court house down and so forth . Now , I don't know whether they 're going to do it. I doubt it, but on the other hand, under those situations, if we authorized the increases in ah in county official salaries and so forth which are borne by the local people, I think that we ought to at least protect ourselves by an pxception in this bill to allow them to extend additicnal amounts to pay those things which we require them to pay during this same ses- sion which we're putting the limit on their amount and the abilityxto pay it.'' Bernard E. Epton: ''I think it's a reasonable request and I certainly would recommend it and consider it.'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Mr. Mccorkicke will take that under con- sideration . 1; Richard 0. Hart: HAlso one other thing I'd like to ask maybe Mr. Scott. Ah, how do you guide this bill with the ah the now I presume legal homestead exemption which will not be extended legally until hext yeara'' Morris W . Scott: ''We11, 1. .'' x.-)A'.',. *% 'iz# kkt? .'j.-. ';'f. . q. t , c y;x EjyA j. AssEM BLY t,. oy.f F-.x. . . $xj ...l . ov cva sowss ze ,zo r .- ses, c s, usuc,sos . va vdvss .  Richard o. Hart: -.z'well. I don 't mean extended legal, I mean which would not be deducted legally until next year. In other words, if I read you right here, next year ah if e11 the counties give eredit for the homestead exemptions and ' in our area, tkure 's a whole lot of elderly people, and ah homestead exemption is a 1ot of money on the tax rolls in Franklin and some of the other small counties in southern Illincis. Kow , A don 't want to play tricks'on the rest of the homeowners and the rest of the tax payers by saying w ith this bill that your tax bills are not going to go up next year, but then coming in with a substantial increase to offset the deduetion which was which would occur by reason of the enactment of the homestead exemption. So would it be prol:er to also amend this bill to ah limit the extension reduced by the apount of the homestead exemption overall so Yhat the other taApeyers would not get an in- crease ah ah contrary to what has been promised theé-'' Maurice W .-scott: ''Well. mypoint is on that, you might have one or two counties, and I think you have cntioned cne in the state of Illinois where there would be no increase in value and by applying the homestead to the extension next spring would reduce th1 value then that county or govern- ment having the same extension the kear before could incree e the rate, and lwau are right in that sense end meybe you should consider such situation.'' ' Richard 0 . Hart: ''We11,. Maurice W . Scott: 'aThose examples, however. will be isolatod, 1% e. w f.? ' â:.-,;.-s-c'. G E N E 1,.A j. A s s E M B IaY (1k f7 ..: i: ...h pj )jj svxvsc,,rjuul aoj s k ,k' . ii. ' =.:h+ ' ' uousso. raseasscxvxvl vss  they would happen in probably one or two counties.'' Richard O .Hart: ''W e1l, if'they 're only one or twq, they both heppen to be in my district and I am concerned about it, because of the of the I mean, I just don't want to ah to say to the taxpayers that we ire doing something for you and in this bill and then come out next Spring when the bills come out and they'll get an increase in their taxes and they look at C. and me and. . Paul J. Randolph: ''Mr. Hart, I must move along now . Mr. Art simmons for the next question.'' Arthur E. Simmons:. ''Ah # Mr. Chairman. my question was of Morris Scott. it was the same question just answered, so I believe I got what I wanted .'' Paul J. Randolph : ''A11. Arthur E. Simmons: ''Regarding the homestead exemption.'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Representative John Matijevich.' John s. Matijevich: ''Ah, C. I think ah I talked to you the other day and said I uphcld heartedly the endorsement of this legislation and I w antid my name to be listed as co-sponsor. I would call it a meritorious moratorium and I would think we in government ou'ght to follow ah what we'r i saying that the private sector ought to do. Ah, however, there's one thing that bothers me. C.L. and that 's this. And I remember some yeers ago when' we passed the state in- come ta' x and I think you gave that tear jerking speech ah said well, .'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Will the members please hold their voices ;?â skk. . ..x fto Iî:t .-; >,'c' , G E N E R A L A SSE M B L Y : âît: : -j i k :' z , ; ,p.rz?.t.g) svwxkosduulsols $*.f y)I.,. s . ,r: .. . e'Otlf ;KoF'RE :Pe?E ' :ï ;Eb'T' AT'VE5 ..  to a. . John S. Matijevich: '.I think ycu gave that speech that said if you 're going to vote for appropriations, you also ought to vote for the money so thEt we can have the money to operate state government. think if we want to be truth- ful and not behypocrites, we also ought to say thay ,, we are going to limit taxes, we also have to ah put a lid on the spending. Now. my question is this, C.L., do you think that we in state government are good example to the local government when we say that in one year this year we are going to increase the budget by $2 billicn and not increase taxes? Do you think that we are telling the local govern- ment, well, don't raise taxes in also cut your spending, ah, are we good examples ourselves?'' c. Mccormick : ''We11, we in the St<te of Illinois has , never been in my lifetime a very gocd example to local governments as far as spending is concerned but I do be- lieve this that this is going to really focus the attention on a11 taxing bodies, state and county and municipalities, to where we're a1l going to have to look at it a little bit differently this coming year'and the nexi year.' John S. Matijevich: '.We1l, I'm glad to hear.that, C.L., be- cause it's reelly a revert of *he position that I have seen this legislature take becausë I think that the people in local government and the taxpayers, think what they'd like to see and maybe we ought to have it as a bill, don 't know, but I'm sure that everybody would scream about 1.:%z t'i' i .!1?.(' 7>- , ' 7à Y G E N E R A L A SSEM B LY 1f.: x%:: - ) t,7') .$)f svxvcos1uuI' qo1s * rz V;'#,..E%..' + .' Hot' lsE oF'RE:P12ESENTA.TIVES .. %,  it. But maybe we ought to put a limit on how much state government can spend for the year to year. Maybe there ought tc be a percentage of increase .'' C . L. Mccormick : ''I would say that possib ly by this bill is successful and goes through the House to the Senate, the Governor signs it and it becomes 1aw in January, maybe we should start considering a limit on the expenditures of state government-'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Further questions, Mr. Matijevich.' John S. Matijevich: 'No. I was only going to sa#, C.L., the only thing that bothered me a little bit is the letter you had from the Governor ah because I haven 't heard the word austerity in some time and I don 't think he 's been good example either in being austerity as he said he woulde. ..'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Ah Mr. Matijevich: we must proceed. .H John S. Matijevich: ''Well, I think this a1l relates and I wanted to reiterate, because we 're going to back to what happened to state income tax and you recall, Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah # we must move on. Mr. Borchers.'' Webber Borchers: ''Mr. Speaker, Fellow Members of the House, ah I 'd like to ask Mr. Mcccrmick a question. Frankly, I've asked heard asked so many of the questions that I 've had in mind tha t there 's really not much that has not been ! covered. But I'd like to give an example in Macon County 1 ' in view of the government. Ah, that stayted off a few yeers ago to the budget of $40,000.00 and ah two employees they had in the unit and a secretary. They now have as . . . 4;.' ?.(-->e:'y Jk p. lj' G E N E R A L A SSE M B L Y ( 1'r-X y . 'w.. . ' j') ttr- , s' rA'rcoe'uu.e'o's N7..'ûgîk 'ë'=%.'%s * ,.. .. ------. soust(oF ncp1 4sscplvA' rlvss --- - . --- .  recollect, in a few years. nine employees and it's a half a million dollars pursek It's been the building of an empire. I don't know about the rest of the state, but what do you think this will do 'in relation to controls, the avid purchasing of things and this type of activitya'' Mccormick: ''That's the purpose of to do that' so that local governmental units can a11 of the Sudden stop and see that they get a reasonably good eight hours work a day and whether their program is really workable or not . Now , I being from the farm and everybody here knows, and this is a simple fact and it's not a Democrat or Republican affair, 1et me say this, there's something about government I don 't care whether it's a school district or whether it is your relief office or whether it 's the legislatuve or any place else, if you give them $1.000.00 a year to oper- i ate on, then next year you give them $10,000.00 a year, ' they ' will continue to keep asking for more. It's just one of those things. You're from the country, it's just like feeding a fat hog. When you get him to 2O0 pounds, he eats more than he needed before and you get him to 25O# he eats more than he did before, there 's'no end to what you can feed to bureaucratic government and tha t '$ the reason for this bill, if you stop and reevaluate ourselves.'' Webber Borchers: 'Ah # Mr. Speaker, i' f I could make just one a couple of comments, ah.. .. about this bill. I'm more than happy to be a co-sponsor with C. L. Mccormick on this bill. I have been wabching at the state level in my own s%K; .. e2;rAT:.,4z /'$ïD> .ï G E N E R A L A SS EM B L Y (i ot f-jw''..tp. - sk,,w1,) svA.veos1ut.1NoIs k:''r. 6t-,:-.9 ... ,.,.., ' =1:.%. o'. Ho' uscol raceI vE: se :e q' rA' rlwss  local level the growth of the municipalities and ccunties and townships of bureaucracy and I think this is one of the greatest things we have. I personally don 't believe that the people are demanding all the services that the office would indicate. . C. Mccormick : ''Wel1,. Webber Borchers: .about our own experience, we just used to with our own tax paying and our own problems and property . We used to pay our taxes in June. About seven, eight years ago, a matter of ten years ago, Decatur it became necessary for us to pay our taxes in June and Sept- ember. I'm telling you for the last few years. wedve had to pay our taxes due in September and on personal property ah just before they were to be sold for taxes to pay the taxes just as far as we would have had tc redeem Paul Randolph : ''Mr. Borchers, we must move on with other questions. Mr. Robert Day, next.'' Robert G..Day: 'Ah, C.L.. I just wonder would you care to comment on a question as to whether or not this bill would have a tendency to decrease governmental services at the local level?'' C. L. Mccormick: 'l don't believe Vhat it would. I don't believe that it would. I think that it might increase the services, because I think it will serve notice on every local governmental unit like we need to.do to every state unit the first of thè year, the time that they perform i those services for the people instead of spending a1l their 1 . !- ! E ?.. . ' ?- 'j;1 ''',..f''. -> G E N E ltA L A S S E M B L Y , , $jt I sp'4 - .. , x y. z, , '.! t. sv.vs...,s.u1x. ,s q j.. (' y' /, . : '.... N...3,., .b.%* ejoussosacesssEsj. rx. rjvss  time in the coffee shops and over around the corner at the drug store drinking their coffee and smoking their cigar- ettes. think it'll improve servicee because it lll show the people that we dre, where the people that are now paying the bill are interested in what 's going on in the county clerk 's office and the Sheriff's Office or the Mayor's Office or the City Clerk and 'Treasurer's Office. I think ' ' itill service as a notice to the people of Illinois are willing to pay, but Khey're not willing to just continue to be broke al1 the time in order to have a bureaucracy formed either in the county or any other level of govern- mcRY *'' Robert G . Day: ''We1l, assuming that there is one local gover- nment thét is not bureaucratic that .is efficiently pper- ated, do you think it would tend to ah curtail services on that part of the local government?'' C . L. Mccormick : ''No, sir. I don 't think if he 's that effic- ient, i.f he's that honest, if he ': that intent on doing a good job that he'll do like you do with your money, he will make it work .'' Robert G. Day: ''One other qubstion. Do you think that this bill will tend to increase revenu'e sharing between the state and local government?'' C . L. Mccormick : don't think there's any question that it j may do that and I also think that the local governments j ' I : before this year is over' and I think that the Democrats on this side of the aisle know it and I think the Republicans aJ-'?r> ,>', .. G E N E R A L A SSE M BL Y tJW / ra c' -. k --- x;. ;J ' .t, ( ;(; ) sv>. vc:oeIuuI' qo1 s h.ïttt--/=.''-. so usc oe.s eeRcss'qv>.'r,vE.:s . % ./. , ,-.-. .  know it that Mills: Mills revenue sharing program is going to be enacted into law Ehis year and it 's going. to be a- nother bonanza for local government like the income tax was and I think that that you 've got that to consider as to further monies coming. too -'' Robert G . Day: ''Thank you.'' Paul Randolph : HFor the next question, fifteen second question. Mr. Roscoe Cunningham.'' Roscoe D. Cunningham : ''That 's impossib le. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask Mr. Scott a couple of questions, if I might. please.'' Paul Randolph : ''Mr. Scott-'' Roscoe D. Cunningham: ''Mr. Scott, would you agree that if this bill goes through , it we are al1 for it, because it is political suicide not to be for qit, but would . you aéree that if it goes through, and the local unit cost of oper- ations continue to rise, that the demand upon this bill ; for morë contributions from the state to the local unit i will become irresistible and we'll have to raise taxes on the state level to fulfill that demand either by the sales or income tax increase?'' Morris W . Scott: ''No, Representative Cunningham , I would not because there's a limitation on the application of this bill for a two year period. If i/ were for longer period or if it were permanent, I would agree with you and say yes to your question.'' Roseoe D. Cunningham: ''But philosophically would there be '.i.k.?.t-,:-. ' %. G EN E ItA j- A ss EM BL Y j1çj;% tfl o 'x y'?rq.17%lh X t, , . .vo ' . .. .. .%*%* ' . sows ----- . ... :v slLc' sJs' A;lo Uo v,wss i'S .. ' any objection to an immediate rule here before this body that we would not increase state income or sales tax? otherwise, we might be engaging in public deception as to the tax relief involved. Would your organization support such a ban on on increase by income or sales tax in this statea'' Morris W . Scott: ''We certainly 'would. And in fact I think that it's time to pause and reflect for a year or at least two and have such a ban.'' Roscoe D. Cunningham : ''And finally, would you aqree that the most meaningful of al1 taxes reform is a reduction in the state and local goverl> ent. Paul J. Randolph: ''Just a second. Pardon me second. Mr. Choate.'' Morris W . Scott: ''My answer would be yes.'' clyde L. choate : ''Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly important issue, I think and I would ask you to rap that gavel occas- ionally-'and get a little order in Ahis House.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Would you please hold your voices to a minimum. May we have it quiet on the floor of the House. Are you through, Mr. Cunningham? The next question comes from Representative Krause.'' James Krause: ''Ah, I'd like to address my questions to Morris Scott. 1'11 make this very shorte Morris. Morris, I I know that you 've worked very hard on this bill and there's a couple of things that bother me about it. Ah. and a couple of my questions have been answered and one of x..e1 '.,. z. ,tt r. ; y..!..y,-,: . .> eq .y', G EN E R A L A SS EM B LY sa'l .u ui, J ? .. t .j 'z.=.... svA. ' rsov.Iuu'qo.s PIOUNE oF RCPRESEPlYAT'VCS .!o.:...*w* . . ...  them was the new construction that would automatically in- crease the assessment o: any improved land or Rroperties which then would result in a tax decrease for the rest of the people, including the improvement in the tax decrease . Now. when when a new home is built and under the next two years if we pass this legislation, a new home would be built and the new home would then be also shared in the lower tax amount, although the assessment would be a normal qssessment for that new home.'' Morris W . Scott: ''Correct.'' , James G. Krause: ''The buyer of that hoo e then has to escrow hl one year's tax in advance when he buys this house-'' Morris W . Scott: ''Ah when he 's buying on a mortgage, he has to escrow a year in advance.'' James G. Krause : ''Now , the thing that worries me hsre Mo.tris is that when this two year period ends, the assessment is up, the tax rate has been lowered because more money can come inethan the amount that is established . At the end of the two years. the guy that bought that house is not only going to have a bigger tax bill ak the end of the two years because the county clerk would then be able to levy the rates, even they were at the top limit, he would levy the top limit on the tax rate, he's going to have an increased tax bill at the end of ihat two years, plus he's going tb have a lump sum of money to be deposited with the mortgage company to cover the next year 's taxes. Now , did you did you think about this when . /. .4.e (.h* 1' j!*-lê % 7>ev.Y G E N E 11A L A SSE M B L Y t;t f. 'S- :..,.q';' tï ko,-,uuyxojs ,v .s;sr?. f.. . . ?,- $' 1.. k' 'xzt ....%e* ro c' elouss zt' F rRe: PF'E%Ee 4TA. ' r1VEs  Morris W . Scott: ''Yes, I thought about it the bill has been explained by the sponsor is a moratorium. You and I would have the same gituation, too, with your and my homes if we're paying mort/ges, etc. The same thing happens re- gardless of whether you have this bill or not. Young peopl paying so much and escrow taxes are called in and told studied until June or July 1, your payments increase 15 or 20 dollars because of increased taxes that we foresee the next year. Yes. I did think of itm'' James G. Krause: ''Yes, but Morris, that wouldn't apply. That would apply. under existing lcan. Right now it would apply that the payment on the loan would go up , but under what would happen here on a new house not only Fould his tax bill go up, not only would his payments go up , but also, he'll have to put in a lump sum of money . At one tim , so you 're qoing three ways. 'And this is going to happen to us when every member of this House runs again. Now; we're going tö ge home and we're going to say to the people, wedve done a great job and helped hold the tax money down and in fact it could result in the tax decrease if we have enough conatruçtion and so on in our county, boy, this is going to look great to 'all of our people. But. two years from now when we run again, Morris,'this really concerns me, because our people. especially the ones that are build- ing new houses and movinq into the county are going to get that three way hit a11 at one time. We ought to consider something here and I don 't know these pnswers. I don't /;) ?l 7. -.s r.. x. (.7, G E N E R A L, A s s E M B L v (ûytjy .).. j., ?r;kt ,, .tï , sv,.vuos,uu'' qo,s $..pt '. VV ', ' r..%*''*.' souj ssosau:easscpjTaT1 vEs  know how to control that situation.'' Morris W . scott: ''Wel1, ah. that is why I call it moratorium while if it did pass, we certainly, if that is a problem and in cerkain instances it would, a year from today we can come up with something. The legislature is here. The thing I'm not worrying so much aiout you fine gentlemen and my friends running two years from now as I am about you running this fall. Of course, we 're a1l concerned aboùt that.'' James G. Krausez 'Al1 right. Morris, just want to get this I one clarified. The assessment are not frozen under this I bill are they? A11 right, now the practice of the ah quadrennial assessment or the quarterly assessment will continuek maybe annually and maybe qvery four years.' Morris W . Scott: ''The assessment will continue in over the past few years there has been a definite increase in the assessment. at least in my particular eounty, the assessed evaluation of the property slowly increases. Then we come along with a multiplier which I realize won't apply the next two years. But this assessment base will be gradually increasing over the next Ewo years, although the amount of your taxes is going to remain pe/manent. Now. I can fore- see and this think again we have to do something about it I can foresee the assessor's Office increasing these asses- sments. Then when this bill would expire, this would ter- minate, our assessment Aas risen, maybe in the meantime wedve had a decrease in khe revenue beeause of new constru- ,. ' t;.t..(w - % G E N E R A L A SSE M B L Y êf-.t.,. ! ;)j .x, . 1j) i . sxwxso.-luu,so,s . .()t >. ê =. e.. uotJSEoFRE:PHESEFITA' FIVEs ' .vt. 1vr; l eK . ' ' . + l *. 1 .. d, ction. A11 -of the sudden, we're going to get hit with an increase in'.rates and an increase in assessment a1l at one time. Now / I think we have to do something in the field of stspping the increase of the assessment, otherwise the pressure to increase a11 units of local government are going to Met a big chunk of dough a1l at one time at the end of this and the taxpayers are going to get hit like hell. MRepresentative Krause, there is no one more knowledgeable than you are in government assessment. I think you'vvz hit on top of them and that's part of the reason for this.. Also, to focus attention as you point out on the assessment picture.'' James Krause: ''That's a11 I have, thank you -'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Al1 right. Mr. Maragos, questions?'' Samuel C. Maragos: ''Ah # Mr. .Scott, if I mpy please. Morry. when I was interrupted in my'questioning earlier, that 's why I ask ed the Chairman to ask two more questions-' Won't this create in the County of Ccok inequities because of the fact that there 's been two quadrant years, because in a I guadrant year rather than the four year basis and élso another county,, but I'm ah only familiar with Cook County assessment. Wouldn't this create some inequities and anti- cipation assessments thdt would avaîl and for the fact that they still bale to keep the rate and assessment down even though it may backfire on the assessmants for the townships which would be involved for spending for '72 and '73, for instance? Would be to effect, this does not say so in .;s h.k ):'qï)&l 7'-: f+,'.c-%, , , G E N E R A L A S S E M B j.,Ajg, 'k êt .)y . . jjç.) y4 # k.. ... x. J p( .;1 'z. ) sT-' ruor. '1t.u9el oI s .t. J:','X..x*'- -. .- uovsso! racenssuz N' rA-r-lve:s . .-  so many words.'' Morris W. Scott: really don't think so. T think you will continue to have what improvement and there are performing the study for Cook County now, the assessors did and certainly am on an advisory committee and so forth. I think that will continue as it is at the present time.'' Samuel C. Maragos). ''Ah, the nekt question is the ah what arises here is one of the taxing bodies that is involved in the extension by the County Clerk does not need thïs money. Is there anything that prevents the Cbunty Clerk from rising up and saying they need more money. Say they need money for education in Chicego needs more money and ah say the Sanitary District another public body needs less money, so this is following the year. Do the County clerk out of this extension? That 's why I ask you earlier to what extend you could give. .'' Morris W . Scott : ''Yes.'' Samuel C.'Aaragos: '' Well, say, whether then they could raise the money due to the Board of Education 's fund the other, they could not do itr' Morris W . Scott: 'lThey could not.n Samuel C. Maragos: ''No, let 's look at the inequities that could arise. Is there anything thak could be done by amendments?n Morris W . Scott: ''Yeah .'' Sqmuel C. Maragcs: ''Any problems here where the greater needs are and the priority . '? AJ,7>% G E N E R A L A SSE M BLY k ' lQ (f C Xîy g ' %; a, t '':.xl. , . *z 1l'?' . r. r.' ,s+.* s svxxsos1uujso1 uoussoessessssavx-rl vss .  Morris W . scott: ''I think such things as Representative scariano mentioned for a school district and the sponsor said he would take part in that and I think an amendments ' should be worked out in that situation. One of them, and there are two or three more that have been mentioned .'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah # Representative Jones for question.n David Jones: ''èhis is to c. L. Mccormick. c. Lw you know I was your seat mate when I was President of the leg- islature and from ycu I learned many things. I also learn- ed that one of them was that you have a keen sense of realizing the public need and finding a way to respond to And you would you say that this bill, 4680, is the one single best thing we can do in this session?'' C. L. Mccormick: ''Well. I think there's no question about it .' J. David Jones : ''I as I qo gbout my district. I find the . frustration among the taxpayers in some areas are organized and in official groupa to do to see that something is done in theMa 'ppro/riate manner. I'm also proud in Sangamon County, though, that our the Sangamon County is one if not the only county in the state that took its income tax money and did not levy a tax for corporate purposes. But I have in my hand a letter that civilizes this whole problem . Thi is from a lady that is 84 years old, she has worked until she was 79 and no longèr able to work . She ls asking for some help to raise her social Secuçity income, because tha't is a11 she 's got so she can pay her taxes. And she 's paid taxes on this property for 62 years and she says now we nee x%%1 't A. , .a'? g.o-.' ' re%, / $êt . .x >c. #. ' -5 9s' $ t -! ? G t.N ER A L A SSEM BLY s''A' rl' :o''u'-'''c'.s X-'4LJ',.Q' ' x:''. ..b.* ' eovsc oF.ne:eRe:scHvAvlvcs  your help because I'm no longer eble to make these pay- ments. And I think that this bill is one solution that is being demanded by the taxpayers, noE only in this dis- trict, but throughout the whole county and I commend you for sponsoring and I'm happy to be a co-sponsor/' C. L. Mccormiek : ''Thank you.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah # are you 'through. Mr. Jones? Mr. Jaffe for a question.n Aaron Jaffe: L., just a short question. Ah one thing that bothers me is one of the extensions, number three, which says that the taxes of units of local government school districts created after the December 3l, 1971 and the thing that bothers me is that if we have an unincor- porated érea suddenly incorporates or suppose you have two school districts presently go together or suppose you had a township that is divided, ah wouldn 't they be able to levy as mueh money as they really wanted to in this act would not include them .'' Mccormiek : ''Ah # no, no, ah they would be able tc levy ah Morris, ah, they would be able to levy only statutcry tax rate would be, you see'. In other words, ah, they wouldn't just have a 1id off, thèy'd have to leave the qualifying rate that the state had for that particular time of the district or if it was a city or village, the scale rate like we had under the old jacket, not the not the statutory rate , thaf's the word, I think . It wculd take the lid off them .n l/y . Jè . ' ?. :' 7N'e kh '.').st J/,b.:,yk G EN ERA L ASSEM BLY hks $ . svA. ' rcoF1k. uINo' s s..rk' 4J. =.'' ,.- .-. uou;ssosr œseI assusl4.AvIvp :s .  Oa ;.-..,, Jnllz'e :''' ''There would be some protection with regard to ' . thet '''>. C. L. Mccormick : '''Yes, yes, sir.'' Pôul Randolph: ''A11 right, Representative Glass for a question.'t Bradley M. Gp zss: ''Ah, thank you, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask Mr. Scott a couple of questions.'' 1*l.iu ). J. Randolph : ''Mr. Scott .'' Bradley M . Glass: ''Morris, with reference to the exceptions, the City of. Chicago have any specific ah limit on its tax ' . % rates?'' Morris W. Scott: ''As of today, without the passage of this bill, the City of Chicago is a home rule unit . Therefore, . without thia bill, is up to the corporate bcdy what property taxes they levy for the first time. Now for the since I believe 1951 even before the new constitution, the City Corporate Fund of Chicago did nct have a rate l'imita- tion. The 'other funds had rates or amounts . '' Bradley M . Glass: ''Wel1, if the court rates does not havea limit, then wouldn 't Chicago fall under the second exceptio whether it was a home rule unit or not?'' Morris W . Scott: ''I am of'the opinion that under the second exception the City of Chicago Genera'l Fund would not come under the provisions of this bill. Just the general fund. '' Bradley M. Glass: ''We11, that it would be possible fcr the 'City to increase thai general fund without limitation and 1 ah of course ah we know some of those monies could be . . ' '. '; '': 'I S.A '--eSt S . ... % ''.'' J '. G E N E jt A L A s s E M j)L Y l; t. 7 / $ . ç . % '4* :.C? .: .. )f .'r ?%.v. ..e' .u.&+%+ : ' ---. STA' 40'S 1: L' rCC'F'L. edo usE. oF'nEPREsEPITA.T1v'ls . --- .-  shared with the Chicago schools or whatever the . .'' Morris W . Scott: ''No. they couldn't be shared with the Chicag schools. that would be one government levying to for the benefit of another one and that would be illegal. But in part answer to your question, the council far as the City of Chicago is concerned in the general funds heve already aceording to whpt I read in Ehe papers this week, put a limitation or moratorium on this general fund.'' Bradley M. Glass: '' We1l. . 1 understrnd that but of course as we know we can use the income tax for the benèfit of the schools and to get to the point I was then getting ate it just seems to me and maybe you'd want to comment on it a little further that we havq carved the City of chicago out as an exception ah tc this ah freeze that would apply tc al1 other units of local government.'' Morris W . scott: ''I wouldn't sey that a11 of the city of I ' Chicago, I would say the general fund.'' Bradley M .-eGlass: ''Well, I have another question. Of course, home rule units ah if you are correct that this limit dces V fect them, that this bill applies to them, ah and their rates would be limited also, they of course have the power to levy other types of practices which school districts and non-home rule units do not have. Is that a fair situation to freeze for two yearsa'' Morris W . Scott: ''We11, ph , you 're correct in that a home rule unit whether it be a home rule city or county can levy other taxes, other non-property taxes with certain ''et's: àM;'''> wr <o% . G EN E R A L A S SEM B LY qçJ ( ---1 'l .L*. ,k. .'. (.;)jt -t J sv,.vcoe.,uu,'qo,s - -* '4 .) f= Tz. .' '- . -'' 1%+ . . .sensssavax.vcs souseos, .-.. .- - .  limitations that is true, but I mean if we are to give the property tax payer a moratorium or some relief, you have to take just property taxes into consideration without goin into the non-property taxes.'' Bradley M . Glass : ''We1l, I have cne final question. Of course, you know today. throughout Illinois, ah the assess- ed evaluation pqr student in school districts varies from something under $6,000.00 to over $300,000.00 per student in average daily attendance. Noq, ah likewise the amounts the amount of money spent by each school disttict through- out the state differs ah and of course the ah the tax rates in these various districts differ and in my cpinion many there are many districts school districts in the areas of the state where property taxes have been kept 1ov and I go so far to say that there are some islands of eh indus- trial property where the real estate tax payers get e free ride by comparison to some of their n 'eighboring districts. Ah, andeit seems to me those people would be frozen and those would be frozen too . Therefore, wouldn't it make sense to not have this freeze apply wheçe real estate tax rates are a1l city low rather than treating everyone the same when you know that in some areas real estate tax payer are paying far more than their share by comparison.'' Morris W . Scott: ''It would merit any argument, but how God's name do you do it, I don 't know .'' Pqul J . Randolph: ''Ah, Representative Hprber Hall.'' i Harber H. Ha1l: ''Ah # I have a question for Mr. Scott .'' X's :.-(&'>:u?e % /.'V?.'(.-,'''-rj. G E N E R A L A SSE M BL Y . qq-7 s).si : v stVj sv-' rEor'Iuu1NoIs ! .;... vvvss  Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Scott.'' Harber k. Ha11: ''Ah, Morris, ah, this this blll for two years will freeze the tax levy from all the districts -'' Morris W . Scott: ''Freeze extension, not the levy.'' Harber H. Hall: ''The extension. Ah, those those districts and those units who have no ' freezing or who have a ' ceiling that they're lev'ying under, ah in view of this legislation, are they likely to ah ah put on unusually high levies in order to bring them higher than they did this year but e- nough to cary them overa'' Morris W . Scott: ''No. ah. in answçr to your question, Repres- entative Hall, you see the night, you can 't do anything about the levies that are to be extended in 1972. If it doesn't say levies for it says you're limited to the extension in Those levies were filed last fall. .A1l of them in September but counties, which filed in December, so those arefixed, so now in 1973, if X government increase its leyy way 'up here, it won 't do any good because it 'll be limited to the extension made in ,72... Harber H . Ha11: ''There aren't any of them that are not yet they had the al1 levy for '72 processed to. . .'' Morris W . Scott: ''That is right. The levies are in the County Clerk 's Office. ah although the process of extension is delayed beeause of w'ays to multipliers end such things.'' Harber H . . H a11 : ''Thank you .'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah # Representative Ben lan, who do you direct your question 'to?'' x*! . jpt , y):y.' .- .r. ow>l> a G E N E R A L A SSE M 13LY z's' kx.Jpti 'l, p svl' rcoc'uu'sols ..t $' i ; t ' w ? . ' n. ' .':.R..$..%.%* '. sousso'rasesesexvxvlvcs ' Arthur L. BexLiaan: ''Mr. scott.' Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Scott, please-'' Arthur L. Benaan : ''If I may as I am a home owner ot the City of Chicagog under the projected policies of the assessor of . Cook County, what I believe he's trying to and has in fact increased lssessments of many ah ah industrial areas , com - mercial areas, ah and taken a second look at some of the depressed rfeas. Paul J. Randolph : ''May we have little quiet , please.'' Arthur L. Berman: ''. .some of the depressed areas of the City to try to seek tc cut assessments in some of those arease so that we find that projection wise, businesses industries would get higher assessments . What effect would this bill have on my tax'bill as a home owner in the next two years?'' Morris W . Scctt: ''Based on youf on What you say where they have been in higher assessments on certain industria'l and other property and even with additions and so forth wculd mean that your D te would go down .'' Arthur L. Berman : ''Ncw# what would be the situation of the Chicago Board of Education with the factual situation that I have given you within'their taxing limitations? What would be their revenue projections Wnder the limitations of this bi11?'' Morris W. Scott: ''It would mean that the. chicago Board of 'Education would be lfmited for the extensions in and .7 to that maximum extension the Ccunty Clerk made in 1972 . '. %%% .1 ' ,y /oxii '-7--:-,eA, ,s (;s x E jj x j. x g g jjM j;ta y j I. .at.. j .I1' X' - k )y( *j . () s' rA. ' rcorluL.lNols . y-4-'.:r:..'. 'w. '. eA ,..fj.&>%p '.' HoUSEoF'IREPRESENYAYIVES .  Arthur L. Berman: ''And one other question. What about local ' government bodies that have entered into or very probab ly going to have to enter into labor contracts situations wher ineteases of wages of working people will be allowed, say within guidelines 5.5% for example. What when will be the net effect? Won't that result in a decrease of se/vices in order to pey for these increases in salalies?'' Morris W. scott: ''Not necessarily, it's just like the Taxpaye s Federation says my salary this year and next will stay at what it's been for the last three years. My expenses have gone up . That doesn 't mean that I have provided less ser- vices for my people or less services to the citizens of thi community . It does mean that I cut out some of the non- essential spending that I could get along without apd I think that the same would .apply to government. This ip on1 a moratorium & r two years and you 're here every year an'd if something doesn 't work the first year, you can amend so thatxit would apply to the times.'' Arthur L. Berman: ''Morrye have you given any thought and I'd really appreciate any 'suggestions along this line, that those of us and all of us are cohcerned with let us say the quality of education. How where do we or could we build in ah some kind of safeguard that some of the mandated t ' programs, such as speczal education, for example, that are going t'o require additional funds in our school system. Ah those worthwhile projects won't go down the drain in view of having some meet the salary demands of the existing per- -- -'=-U:%. :'.' . ,îrk....j;('' mme '. : 'k':t:, G E N E R A L A SSEM B LY .*o) ...xr.yt, . ,l svxxcosjuulxojs t.i1'f.='p'-. Hooss os sseasscxvxvl vss ff1.a.1..s*% ..x ' sonnel forces. How can we address ourselves to those pro- blems?'' Morris W . Scott: ''I think the answers are that those special and I make have taught school for tHrteen years in this county and I know the problems of education and elsewhere. I also know that some of the expenditures in education are not justifiable, but to answer your question, think these things are going to have to become a greater burden on the ptate, a greater burden other than property tax er revenue. ' Arthur L. Berman : ''Thank You.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah Representative Juckett.'' Robert S. Juckett: ''Mr. Chairman, I guess Morry could answer the question just as well as anyone else.' Paul Randolph : ''Mr. Scott.'' Robert S. Juckett: ''Morry, I think the purposes of .the bill are fine. I think the first paragraph of the bill is trp- mendous, but I'm a little disturbed by the limitations whic you have in there, ah . Paul Randolph: ''Just a minute please. May we have a littl more order, please. Must have it quiet, this is a very important measure we're working o'n . '' Roberts. Juckett: ''I can understand limitation number one for the qualifying rate, however on limitation number two, do you have at your command now the list of taxes which are not'subject to limitation?'' Morris W . Scottz ''To my understanding there i's only one that I know of and that's the corporate property tax rate in the ...v '.'' l.i %1 )dlK. 'V.z ,;)4:?(' --'>'c' G E N E ItA L A S S E M B L Y t( :t ' $. .. v. ,..T?x('2àï' . . . .'. . s' r-'rè o'r'uu'e4c''s X:..412,Ct- . . .,..*x. HoklsE oF HEF'Re:se:-TaT1N!Es  1. Jxty of Chicago. But there are two more ah the general --obligat-ion ibond schedule, in other words, the county clerk looks in his file and he says sees that the schedule, I must extend for this district for the qeneral bonds, $14 million. ). Ie must extend that . The other one is the Illinois Municipal Retirement Fund. There's no limitation on the tax, because the state and the local government must spend up to them and property taxes to meet its commitment . ' Robert Juckett: ''Would it be possible for thclse units of local government ; and school districts to use the G . O. bond- ing to pay for normal expenditures?'' Morris W. Scott : ''No: ah, of course anything is possible, but they 'd be cut up so quickly that they could drovn in a foot of watar for the simple reascn that the diversion of that caption in the past has many cases where people wept to jail for doing this-'' Robert S. Juckett: uBut the City of Chicago's general 'fund would not bç subject to this bi11?'' Morris W . Scott: ''Yes.'' Robert S. Juckett: ''Okay, now , item number . . . '' Morris W . Scott: ''Now . let me say one thing, general fund for the City of Chicago'is only one time. The City of Chicago may levy many other funds wnich would be subject to this . .'' Robert S . Juckett: ''But this is the general property tax rate which has grown so ra'pidly in the City of Chicago , is that correctr' '.z ' .A*)' ,'/1t b 1. >'or /h.t ,pJk ç 't:'. ' :' c s x jjjka j. x g s E M (;j.y 4 '''.. '');.; '. , s'ra're oe 1uuINo 's . . lz.c'' ' .'*'. HOtJsE (7F F'EeREscsvaxlvss %.'; '' %+ - f.;v. I.&>  Morris W . Scott: ''Wel1. ithas grown rapidly since 1955 and in beinq fair, some dowhstate have qrown, too -'' Robert Juckett: ''Now, on limitation number three: you say taxes of units of lccal government and. school districts created after December 31. 1971, now is a11 of this state nrw represented by units of local government and units of school districts. So then what we 're talking about as I read this is let's say in my area of suburban Cook County if the school districts stay as they are, we would be limited.'' Morris W . Scott: ''Right-'' Hobert S. Juckett: ''But if they became a unit district, then there would be no limitation whatsoever on their spending.'' Morris W. Scott: 'Now, wait'just a minute there. There kould be a limitation. Fcr example, if two school districts formed a unit district in your county automatically you would have a base limitation of the education fund of $1.60 so you'd apply $1.60 against the valuation and thatls the maximum extension. .''' Robert S. Juckett: 'And how would tiat compare with what their rate limitation is nowa'' Morris Scott : ''It probably would be less, because ah even the qualifying rate of .87/ for the educational fund of a of a ellmentary added to that of a.high school would be oh more a little bit more than $1.60.', Robert Juckett: ''And then if they did become a unit dis- - - - - - =-7 xU '. *k; .',,>,e.ê.', . zt g'? -c(.2. G E N E 11 A L A S S E M B L xjgr , ? 'l .k>' t! kts. l.x'yt,: , svxx,koevuulaols jx.%*lYdj )J',r*.%' w. sousE:oIraceg/c: sE . :4' rA' rIve: s ..  trict' they would then qualify for more state aid'and I'm kéld that it would be approximately $100 million mcre from the State of Illinois if these school districts, these machine units, .'' Morris W . Scott: ''That is right. That is right.'' Robert S . Juckett: ''So it could. .'' Morris W . Scctt: ''It could qualify for mcrë, I don 't know how much.'' Robért S. Juckett: ''Right.'' Morris Scott: ''Now, let me know in answer to your ques- tion. You want'to also take inbo consideration, for in- stance, the creation of a special distriet either a park district or a fire section district, if that 's voted in, the people want it and so forth, then they go to the statute for their base rate times 6he valuation for th'eir taxes.'' Robert S. Juckett: ''But they MDu1d not have been ah limited by this bill.'' Morris W . Seott: ''That is right, because the peop'le voted to do it and they shouldn't be limited-'' Robert S. Juckett: ''And this would be for incorporation of the cities and villages.'' Morris W . Seott: ''That is correct .'' Robert S. Juckett : ''Now, a1l right, when you get to city limitation number four, ah why are' you cutting that off on Deeember 31 of 1971?1' Morris W . Scott: ''We11, this is. z't+'1('71>*rk G E N E R A L A SSEM BL Y / r 2 : - k jjq*J '7 : .L: .) ft)wh '''T*.'Y'. . s'rl'g'rcRoc 'uu'No's cpas:ssa+A.yjvrs .e ..  Robert S. Juckett: ''Rather than '72?'' Morris W. Scott: ''We11, because of for example, in 1972 which we're in .right now , there q4ill be proposals that various districts in existence might want to mix with the people. There are quite a few municipalities that have written to me about ambulance service, what can they do?'' So, they're submitting the people whether the people would approve the 'levy of 015% for ambulance services, so if they do at the present year, they have should have that ex- tended next year and the following year. I'm also think- ing for example,. as Springfield School District, unit schoo district would submit a referendum to the people to increas the educational fund rate from $1.80 to $2.00, the people approve it, they should then have that extended. In other words, we limit it to this so if things are happening this year they should be allowed to go on with it in 1973 and 1974 .'' Robert S. .luckett: ''In other words, this is a unit a local unit or school district or city or village were to by referendum increase the rate, then this bill would have k . ! no limitation on them . '' ! ' j I Morris W. Scott: ' 'That. is correct énd my our theory ' in think- ing is that the people need to know'this when they vote and the fact would be put out to them-'' . Robert S. Juckett: ''Now ' suppose the referendum, . that were adopted in if this bill had been effective. Now , I'm asking you for conjecture and I kncw this is going to be ..as4 J.1 I :.'>;Y).j q.yc G E N E 11A L A SSE 51BL Y s.). '=.. - : $q)ryfs . .ht .:..$.'' Ja , o ,%*%a. s' rA' - ru:oe''uu,NoI s sou,ss oyr asey'sscslvwv1vss  very diffieult. Do you think that if the people knew that this was the' 1aw and that a referendum was exempt. do you in your opinion think that it would effect any referendum?'' Morris W . Scott: .'My interest, no# because the referendum carrying today had to carry first base on the fact that education of the people, and if you capt carry that, you can 't carry a referendum, either with or without this bill. ' Paul J. Randolpi: 'Ah, Mr. Henss with questions. No ques- tions. No, Vr- Clabaugh, did you. Charles W. Claspugh: ''Yes. Mr. Speaker, I would like to to ask Mr. Scott onë question.'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Mr. Scott, Tor a question.'' Charles W . Clabaugh ! ''You made a statement a moment ago that question that's a prevty risky business with you, I kncw in the tax field.'' Morris W . Scott: HNoy it isn dt.'' Charles W . Clabaugh : ''. .but did not we pass a bill a A ' matter of one or two years ago that if there is a con- solidation of school districts, let 's assume four element- ary districts and in a one high school district, tvat the rate of tax of .educational relief in that n:w district could be equal to the sum of the rate in the high school and the highest underlying elementary schoola'' Morris W . Scctt: *''1 apologize to you , youdre exactly right in that thing. The point that I was trying to get over is that there the new district does have limitations, you go to the statute to see what it is and you 're exactly '' #. k.6A1 , . ... . ' î t$t'.12. zt L -.>'''..,, :. .. . - (h ! cj yxsRAL AssEMBLY j.) k JJ 1. ',, s' rA. ' rsovIuu'e'oIs * 'X ' *1otlsE oF REPRESENT;T4VES ' right in this case.'' Charles W . Clabaugh : ''Thank you -'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Ah # Mr. Hunsicker.'' Carl T . Hunsicker: ''Mr. Speaker, Members of the House, am a co-sponsor on this bill and I think it's a step in the right direction. And I 've listened with interest tc the questions that were beiné asked and I've got one ques- ' ' tion and it ls open to anybody that wants to answer it and thaè's this. How can local taxes be held at the current rate so long in the General Assembly while loeal govern- ments spend more money for such things as local official salary increases, voting registration and a11 kinds of individual elections to different boards and what have you that we mandate for our local government by a vote. think that when we as a body start mandating legislation for local governments to depend on. the people stop voting tax increases upon themselves, then and only then will real estate taxes stabilize and cpme down-n Paul J. Randolph : ''Ah # Mr. O'Brien.'' George M . O 'Brien: HAH # Mr. Chairman, I'd .like to ask Mr. Scott a question.'' Paul J. Randolph : ''Mr. Scott.'' George M . O 'Brien: ''Mr. Scott, as the representative of the Taxpayers Federation here concerning this, I want to ask you a question. Would you ah agree with the moratorium on not only the real estate tax, but on the sales tax and on the state income tax?'' ' z.,-.3 ' z.-w ''e G E N E R A L A SSE M B L Y ' : $ ( i &'( k .i $k1,',y 'k ; , - s' ravso' r'uu,s,ol s ! .. êi - #.. ' S' .... ..fr.,..qe-> '' - soc,sc o ..ne:e...:sc'.Iv#.v1we:s . . .  Morris W . scott: ''I think a few minutes ago I said yes. I think the people are in Yhe mood where they like the Gen- eral Assembly to give them a chance to pause and refresh.'' George M. O 'Brienr 'lAnd even though 'we have an increase in the state budget, you concede that if there is any defic- iency, you feel that it should be compensated with iighten- ing of expenses rather than the appropriation of funds, additional need of funds.'' Morris W. Scott: ''Representing the people in my thinking, the answer is you betcha. And in fact if there is needed funds where would you. if it need be where would ycu request or advise that there be limit to taxation? Well, this being a difficult question, 1'11 give you a quick answer and an cverall answer to that. First of all, if it ts immediately, enforeing the property tax, this bitl gives a referendum, that isn't how. I think and this is my per- ! sonal opinion, as far as the future of the state is con- cernedpe the state will rely and will have to rely more and more upon the income tax, but it has its drawbacks, too, like all taxes. I 've s'aid many times, there is only one air oil. '' fair tax and that 's the tax on h' George M . O 'Brien: ''Wel1# didn't you say that there need be a tax on the state revenue from one source or another tax, that the increase should eome' from an increase in the income 'tax# state income tax.'' Morris W . scott: ''My answer would be that it probably is where it is going to have to come from, yes.'' , x.'. ' : t.x.h) ,.. 4A 'I y ) -, '4 tg,' > GEN ERA L A SSEM BLY ;j.--è o.. y;,1,h * Ct -$ .v'.'r V- vt;,. i, . sv,..?so.,j,.u.1so,s ubtlsu op'Re:p'RcsEplTAT1vEs ' ..+ .' zr .  paul Randolph: ''Ah, Representative Gibbs.'' W Joseph Gibbs: ''Mr. Scott, I don't knowy maybe you have answered this before, but I have two short questions. One, of course, would be concerning the ambulance service which is a very which is in very dire need around our county here Did you say that this bill would exempt actions by which would require referendum?'' Morris W . Scott: ''That is right .'' W. Joseph Gibbs: ''And they cculd increase, sir?'' Morris W . Scott: ''That is right p'' W@ 'Joéeph Gibbs: ''.The other question I . have is is it true * that the 102 counties could do exactly the same thing that this bill is attempting to do? Thè Board of Supervisors of each county?'' i Morris W . Scott: HAh# the Board could only do it as a taxable funds under its jurisdicticnz The County Boards could not - ao a thing without the funds under the various school dis- trictsAurisdiction.'' W . Joseph Gibbs: ''We11,. . .'' Morris W . Scott: ''It, or the funds under county or tcwnships or road districts or special districts-'' w. Joseph Gibbs: 'coufdntt they do'it within their own counties. though ?'' Morris W . Scott : HIn their own county, they could. Bellevill . and who Belleville and Representative Krause will verify this is a home rule unit, but Belleville passed an ordin- ance for this year, and I believe next year, they want to -'AI: . ',%%%%1 #% /'. têz- , q o' .xj:k' ? , 7,7:, 6'.Ny ..,, .t GEN ERA L ASSEM 8LY hsè é ..a .ky, svavso.r'uu'-o. s ' . : ,t -ht ' ?. -r, - f:v.'.''.-. sousc o! raceasss-vwvlvss  keep the present tax rate limitations on their property tax fund even though they are a home rule unit.'' W . Joseph Gibbs: ''We1l. dcn't you believe that since this is such a local problem that it would be better for the Board of each county to do this?'' Morris W . Scott: '.oh , yes. But my answer is they've had over 100 years and haven't done it. In other words, this is - only a moratorium for a two year period . And you as a con- tinùous legislator can change it any time you see fit.'' W . Joseph Gibbs: ''But they do have the authority, but you don't think they will because cf the fact that they have not in the past, right?'' Morris W . Scott: ''No, because even if it's you and I on those boards the pressures that youire subject to within the right of limitations, you're subject to those pressures.'' W . Joseph Gibbs: ''Thank you .'' Paul J. Randolph: ''Mr. Shea.'' Gerald W . .Shea: ''Mr. Scott, you were asked a question with regards to the property tax with particular emphasis on i . the Chicago and I'm wondering if you're familiar with an article that came out in Fortune Magazine called 'Fortune View Point '? And it talks about'the property tax on a ' $20,000.00 home in 1972 and it lists 15 major metrcpo. litan areas ah going from Newark with the average tax scheme $1,452.00 down to Philadelphia with a $539.00 tax and it goes on down to where Chicaqo is the thirteenth city of these fifteen areas where the property taxes is $437.00. . ..,:7:''êt,,. î .()t.. , - ?.-. j >' .%'tï G EN ERA L A SSEM 1LY kfu7<L '' .;y'q ;.w r . )k' ,-! . ss ov cvx uouss ao ss ea. usuc,s e uol vas vl vss k.*44.:.w.%s%* .. . ... .  Are you familiar with that?'' Morris W . Scott: ''I read that. yes.'' Gerald W . Shea: ''so that proportionately in many areas, I know we feel taxes are high , but compared to other parts of the country, our taxes are somewhak lower, is that cor- recta'' Morris W . Scottt ''That is true. Representative Shea, I ' think I believe you were absent from the floor but I point- ed out on a home owner with the high tax rates in Cook County, $9.00, $10.00, $11.00. You get terrific headlines about that, but I on my home in the County of Sangamon in the City of Springfield, pay just as high a tax, because sir you have a right by classification to assess holaes at a lower level. Let's say it's at a 25% level. I'm my new home at 50% level,'so at a rate close to $5.00, my taxes are just as high as on the home owner in your area.'' . Gerald W. Shea: ''In other words, some are probably just a littlexhigher with the rate in the city is about $7.00 some thing.'' 1 1 Morris W . Scott: ''Yeah, but I 'm talking about is the yes ah huh, Gerald W. Shea: . 'SO, if you've goteover a $4.00 rate at 50% and we've got a $7.00 plus rate and 25%, the tctal dollars you pay are going to be higher, is that right?'' Morris W . Scott: ''That is right and comparable in that and I would be paying close t; a $10.00 rate compared to your $7.00 rate.' kvs)*. '.. ;')*l.t' ee '?(->;'r t GENEI tAL ASSE51BLY ;.r $$,-. ; Zf y4..k ' '.v, â sokyssxo jrxv rc1 l .o cpII vFu rns :1ol Els zsu I ' T1Ve:S '.N'X+ 'a. . %.. f;.. 'd'  Gerald W . Shea: ''Thank you .'' Paul J- Randolph : ''Mr. Ha11.'' Harber S. Hall: ''Ah.. Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Committee of the Whole, having listened to this unique and outstanding pieee of Legislation now for over an hour, I now Move that the Committee of the Whole do now arise.'' Paul J. Randolph: ''It ls been moved by Representative Hél1 ' ' that the committee of the Whole do now arise, all those in favor say 'Aye '# so opdered-'' ADJOURNMENT A- Z 1:10 O'CLOCK P.M. 6/8/72 D eS . . qv-1* J a. %.q;,-7r.V>'*6' '. G E N E R A L A SSE M B L Y i .'tç.-. tj ,-.. . f . . , .) -.. :tj svxvsosIuujso. s . t' 4/n- .'.' sjouse;oI rnce4ssc:4' rA. v1vcs .  * * . l3. RETURN A1 1:10 O'CLOCK P.M. Hon. W. Robert Blair: Resolutions. Adjournment Resolution.' Fredric B. Selcke: ''House Joint Resolution 140. Hyde. 'RE- SOLVED BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: SEVENTY-SEVENTH ' GENERAL ASSEMNLY OE THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, the Senate con- curring herein,'that when the House adjourns on Thursday, June the 8th, 1972, stand adjourned until Tuesday. June l3# 1972 at 11:00 A.M. and when the Senate adjourns on Thursday, June the 8th, 1972, it stand adjourned unkil Tuesday, June l3, 1972 at 11:00 A .M .'.'' ' Hon.W. Robert Blair: 'The gentleman frbm ah.. The gentleman from Cook , Mr. Hyde-'' H. J. Hyde: 'Mr. Speaker. Ladies and Gentlemen of th; House, House Joint Resolution l40 is the Adjournment Resolutfon. ' And, it provides that Vhen we adjourn today which we're . going to do almost instantly , we will return on Tuesday, June 13th at 11:00 A.M., so that is when we wilt come back. zM I move ah.. adoption of House Joint Resolution 140, Mr. Speakerm'' Hon. W . Robert Blair: ''Alright.. A.ll those in favor of the Joint Resolution say 'Aye' the opposed 'noî the 'Ayes' have it and the Adjournment Resolution is adopted. The gentleman from Union, Mr. Choate-'' C . L . Choate: ''Ah .. Mr. Speaker, I neglected when I was talki g to you to find out the number of t%e Room where the Demo- cratic Conference will be held. Is''2l2 availablea'' . .. l.ê'',v ,.-:.x..rqs'ç' i 'jT ç't; . 7 s.y' yo' > t' uh G ENE11A L ASSEM BLY i . d. tf ' nv4 ''-1) k, ... .,. M ao vs av svo ooss su cu sa, se c. $ .voaIs a vlvss : îl %s..z.'. C-t''7..!.. . .. ..  l4. Hon. W . Robert Blair : ''Yes, it 's available.'' C L Choate: ''Then, I would ask. Mr. Speaker, that'immediate u/on adjournment of the House. which will be in'just a few seconds as I understand, that the I would ask the Democratiè Members to come to Room M212, Room 2l2 for the purpose of a very short Democratic Conference. Room 212.'' Hon. W. Robert Blair: ''Okay . The gentleman from ah .. Cook , Mr. Hyde.'' H. J. Hyde: ''Mr. Speaker and Ladies and Gentlemen of the House, . I now move that this House stand adjourned until the hour of 11:00 A .M. next Tuesday-'' Hon. W. Robert Blair: ''A1l those in favor say 'Aye'# the opposed 'no ', the 'ayes' have it and the House stands ad- journed.' ADJOURNMENT A - l 1: 17 O'CLOCK P.M. 6/8/72 m es . J4 ' 2'J- ' m>0 G E N E R A L A SSE M B L Y I k f: (a :' k>. r, 'r. t. z t %.q k,1 j) ... . sx.>. vo,s sos,uu,, uous?oFaceRt cst lpl' rn' rsvEs :''uzo....%*.' '.